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joined #scheme 10:00:44 add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 10:19:50 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 10:24:22 iboB [iboB@95.111.99.62] has joined #scheme 10:25:23 hey, say I need the finonacci sequence and I use the classic recursion. 10:25:43 In other languages this will be a bad idea, because to generate the you'll end up evaluating the same fib numbers over and over again 10:26:22 does scheme store the already evaluated values for (fib 1) ... (fib 10) .... 10:26:40 that's up to the implementation 10:27:07 wow :) I didn't expect that 10:27:36 so I have to bind my programs to a specific scheme implementation? 10:27:59 no, i mean, a smart compiler might save those values 10:28:05 ah 10:28:58 is there a way to force it to do this? 10:29:17 i mean is there a way to guarantee that the values will be stored? 10:29:42 yes, memoize them yourself 10:32:03 so i'll have to use stuff like vector and vector-grow, right? 10:32:19 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 10:32:24 a weak hash would probably be better 10:32:28 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 10:32:52 ok thanks 10:33:12 another way is the classic corecursive definition with streams 10:36:51 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:10 pnkfelix [~Adium@195.166.117.131] has joined #scheme 10:40:56 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ] 10:51:59 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:52 maybe it's flame-like/naive/dull, but i'll ask anyway: why is scheme not that popular? 10:53:14 why would it be popular? 10:53:28 cause it's awesome? 10:53:43 idk, why are languages becoming popular? 10:54:07 in large part accident 10:57:15 a lot of theories go around about difficult to learn, features, marketing, libraries, etc. but I don't think there is a recipe 10:58:14 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #scheme 10:59:20 had a talk about those theories lately, that's why became curious about scheme. thought about accidents too, and it makes sense, as well as some kind of evolution with a lot of random factors. thanks 11:00:09 I'm just grateful that first class functions have finally won (where won here is defined as "even java has added them") 11:00:31 heh 11:04:40 Stevey1 [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 11:05:25 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:07:20 pierpa [~user@host241-242-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 11:07:34 -!- iboB [iboB@95.111.99.62] has left #scheme 11:13:03 defanor_: IMO, the language is not appealing to most developers. Where I work, all the developers look at Lisp code and freak out. The syntax is too alien for those used to C-like syntax. There's no `for'! Since the language is not popular, only a few developers angage the development of libraries (the ones who actually engage, start their own Scheme implementation...). And since there's no libraries like in popular languages, 11:13:03 Scheme doesn't attract more developers. So, it's a kind of a cyclic problem. That's the impression I have. 11:14:33 rstandy [~rastandy@pc193-204-199-181.cmcc.it] has joined #scheme 11:15:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #scheme 11:16:03 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 11:19:51 -!- effy_ [~x@114.246.73.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:20:58 mario-goulart: yeah, it's sad, but makes sense too. thanks for your opinion 11:21:16 effy [~x@114.246.73.29] has joined #scheme 11:26:18 and of course, scheme repels other schemers 11:26:31 which makes the whole problem much worse 11:27:05 um, how is that? 11:27:25 defanor_: write me a simple networking program that runs on chicken, gambit, guile and racket 11:27:35 oh, got it 11:27:40 and when you get fed up of that... 11:31:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31:59 otoh erlang and clojure are on the rise, so freaky ideas are definitely getting out there 11:35:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.16] has joined #scheme 11:43:01 -!- teleScope [~cong@223.83.147.52] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:59:55 wingo: the clojure case is indeed interesting 12:01:50 The only explanation I see is that it is something "new". When people see something "new", they might think "maybe I should give it a try". They don't do that for CL or Scheme because of their "bad reputation". 12:02:29 and it's possible to use java libs from closure, if i understand right 12:02:50 That's right. 12:03:23 well, what are the good jvm languages? 12:03:58 scala looks nice 12:04:01 I hear good things about scala 12:04:04 scala looks complicated 12:04:06 But I don't know it. 12:04:22 defanor_: same is possible with Kawa, say 12:04:39 There is (was?) Sisc. 12:04:51 that one, too 12:04:57 an JScheme or something? 12:05:01 also ABCL 12:05:24 Yeah, but all those bring the Scheme/CL "bad reputation" 12:05:30 mario-goulart: I don't think it's just CL and Scheme, on the JVM, but jpython, and jruby, and jhc, and all the rest 12:05:32 defanor_: closure is a language feature invented in scheme, clojure is a language 12:06:09 so newer is probably better when trying to take on a new platform 12:06:10 vraid: oh, a typo, sorry 12:06:32 well, not that the jvm is new, but you know what I mean 12:06:37 ijp: I have a feeling those j are considered pretty slow. Slower than the "native" implementations (which are considered slow). 12:07:14 mario-goulart: and it's not just the speed, but the semantics are often different because of implementatin-defined languages 12:07:28 nobody likes breakage 12:07:44 Possibly 12:08:43 but then again, the web situation disagrees with this hypothesis 12:09:08 rudybot: ain't no theorems in social science 12:09:10 ijp: not all promises are theorems 12:18:16 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:22:40 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.200.146] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:28:37 jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-20-117.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:28:40 aranhoide [~smuxi@118.Red-79-151-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:28:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:28:56 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 12:32:25 In other languages this will be a bad idea, because to generate the you'll end up evaluating the same fib numbers over and over again 12:32:35 JFTR, this is bullshit. 12:33:02 LP languages handle cases like that for decades. 12:35:07 DerGuteMoritz: JFYI, some time ago a man came to #abcl and started asking questions indicating that he's writing something real and serious. 12:35:22 When he was asked why ABCL, he answered something like 12:35:50 "'case I want/need Java but don't want to learn clojure." 12:36:26 ASau: good to know1 12:36:28 ! 12:36:38 As for j* languages being slow. 12:36:43 That's bullshit too. 12:36:43 I think Clojure has some neat features, too, well worth learning 12:36:59 There're people seriously using MPI Java. 12:37:23 ASau: "considered" is not the same thing as "is" 12:37:52 Of course, there exist cases when some obscure languages can beat Java in some application. 12:38:11 Or even some obscure implementations of obscure languages. 12:38:13 Not to mention ASau's claim is as subjective as any other claim made here. :-) 12:38:53 mario-goulart: I have seen how Java has beaten C++ in HTC application. :) 12:39:03 But calling other people's opinion "bullshit" seems to make him feel superior, for some reason. 12:39:31 Oh, come on. 12:39:53 Making random claims that Java is slow doesn't make it slower. 12:40:14 Nobody claimed that. 12:40:30 *ijp* turns down volume on #scheme, leaves 12:40:35 *mario-goulart* too 12:41:04 < are considered pretty slow. 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