00:00:48 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 00:03:11 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.223.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:05 oxum [~oxum@122.164.39.228] has joined #scheme 00:11:26 HTDP seems to have a lot of redundant elementary exercises at the beginning. does it get better? 00:11:38 my ultimate goal is to finally read SICP in 1 1/2 years 00:11:54 so I'm wondering what alternatives I have to HTDP in the meantime 00:12:10 I've found 'Scheme and the Art of Programming' at my library 00:12:21 which is supposed to be an intro to SICP 00:12:40 with a forward by Guy L. Steele Jr. 00:12:59 and the authors are: George Springer / Daniel P. Friedman 00:13:52 I was thinking this book, then 'Concrete Abstractions' before diving in to SICP 00:14:02 I don't like my first impression of HTDP 00:14:18 (at least in terms of my style of programming) 00:15:44 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.39.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:09 oxum [~oxum@122.164.9.189] has joined #scheme 00:29:54 I think Dybvig's "The Scheme Programming Language" knocks socks off SICP 00:30:03 Much more concise and to-the-point 00:31:10 and for dessert try Quiennec's "Lisp In Small Pieces" :) 00:31:44 Stevey: my university also has "The Scheme Programming Language" 00:32:09 isn't that book more of a reference though, or does it also teach programming concepts? 00:32:35 It does teach concepts but isn't slow-paced 00:33:07 oh cool 00:33:16 what mathematical background does it require? 00:33:25 Much less than SICP 00:33:41 sweet, I'll check it out after I read SAOP 00:33:43 It presumes some familiarity with programming though 00:33:45 Cool! 00:33:50 Best of luck! 00:33:54 thanks 00:34:07 Oh and there's a free online copy - just google it 00:34:22 my goal with scheme is to learn general programming concepts, and different ways of thinking about programs 00:34:33 eventually I want to also do C/UNIX programming 00:34:59 I wonder to what extent, (of course not in terms of syntax), learning scheme will help with learning C 00:35:06 I think Dybvig is to Scheme as K&R is to C 00:35:45 Neither are similar. Scheme lets you work at a totally different level 00:36:10 Good pair of languages to invest time in 00:37:11 cool 00:37:19 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.9.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:34 what languages would scheme help me with, if not C? 00:39:10 I've heard that scheme can provide enlightenment, which is more powerful than any particular language 00:39:29 other languages are just specific implementations of some of that power 00:39:40 that's why I want to start with scheme first 00:39:42 oxum [~oxum@122.164.137.134] has joined #scheme 00:40:29 the languages I will use in the future likely haven't been invented yet, I guess.. 00:41:29 so why focus on particular specific languages, when I can learn the ways of thinking with scheme, and then apply that to any language 00:41:50 that was my goal with starting with scheme first, does that sound like a good plan? 00:45:49 -!- tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:25 learning scheme will help you with knowing scheme 00:50:14 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD62033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:04 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 00:52:04 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.137.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:54:05 oxum [~oxum@122.164.186.90] has joined #scheme 00:55:44 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:56:03 I think Scheme will help you with all the functional languages - you'll understand their "special sauce" and emphasis 00:56:08 learning scheme affected the way i write programs in C. and a bunch of other languages affected the ways i write/think of programs in other languages. as well as papers/books/articles do affect it. i like the approach zacts described 00:57:38 It'll also help you to understand abstraction 00:57:51 Which is universally a good thing to be able to use 00:58:45 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.46.45] has joined #scheme 00:58:45 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.186.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:58:49 -!- oxum_ is now known as oxum 01:02:37 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:06:47 Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 01:07:43 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.46.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:59 oxum [~oxum@122.164.150.243] has joined #scheme 01:11:08 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD62033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:11:24 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:43 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 01:15:48 Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 01:15:55 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:58 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:15:58 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:20:37 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:21:10 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:48 Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 01:27:25 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 01:29:28 -!- qu1j0t3 [~qu1j0t3@kvm5.telegraphics.com.au] has left #scheme 01:34:44 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:28 Exercise for the smug Schemer. Why is this C routine to decode a little-endian 32-bit integer broken? uint32_t le32dec(const void *b) { const uint8_t *p = b; return ((p[3] << 24) | (p[2] << 16) | (p[1] << 8) | p[0])); } 01:39:20 Stevey1 [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 01:39:45 -!- Stevey1 [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has left #scheme 01:39:59 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.150.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:41:17 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:12 Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 01:43:01 oxum [~oxum@122.164.157.39] has joined #scheme 01:44:15 Stevey: defanor: I like this book already after reading only the introduction, /Scheme and the Art of Programming/. 01:44:28 they mention exactly what we are talking about in the intro 01:44:38 I feel like this is a good path for me to take 01:45:14 It talks a lot about lambda calculus and abstraction in the intro 01:45:30 it equates languages to tools in a toolbox 01:46:02 Read stuff that feeds your interest! 01:46:05 but mentions, as Stevey said, that it teaches abstraction and control of complexity which can apply to any language 01:46:46 \o/ 01:46:51 Scheme is a good language to learn to build decent abstractions. 01:47:19 You can also migrate to Clojure very easily if you need to be seen to do something trendy 01:47:49 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.157.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:48:13 neat 01:49:46 I think I'll like this book more than HTDP, it has fewer trivial exercises, and is more to the point 01:50:03 (not that HTDP is bad, just not quite my style from a first glance) 01:50:12 Riastradh: How is it broken? 01:50:23 -!- Stevey [~stevie@220.245.104.218] has left #scheme 01:50:46 oh 01:51:30 I suppose it does the binary operations first as uint8_t computations, and only after does it promote to a uint32_t 01:52:08 Nope. 01:54:32 how is it broken then? 01:54:39 oxum [~oxum@122.164.150.79] has joined #scheme 01:55:29 just checked on uint32 and on char array, works fine with gcc 01:55:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:59:07 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:59:18 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.150.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:02:01 Well, there's the popular interpretation (including GCC), the popular interpretation among language lawyers (including Clang with -fsanitize=integer), and the interpretation that is all I can discern from the text of C99. 02:02:08 The popular interpretation is that of course it works! 02:02:40 The popular language lawyer interpretation is that shifting 0xff by 24 bits when int is 32-bit signed is undefined behaviour because it shifts a one bit into the sign bits, which is not kosher. 02:03:06 (I.e., undefined behaviour.) 02:04:39 But my reading of C99 Section 6.5.7 `Bitwise shift operators' is that if INT_MAX = 2^32 - 1, then ((uint8_t)0xff) << 24 should yield (int)0x7f000000. 02:05:43 INT_MAX = 2^31 - 1, I mean. 02:05:51 In particular, for E1 << E2, it says (clause 3) `The integer promotions are performed on each of the operands. The type of the result is that of the promoted left operand.', and (clause 4) `If E1 [not ``the type resulting from applying the integer promotions to E1'' or ``the result type''] has an unsigned type, the value of the result is E1 x 2^E2, reduced modulo one more than the maximum value representable in the result type.'. 02:06:39 Since 0xff x 2^24 = 0xff000000 \equiv 0x7f000000 (mod 2^31), the result should be (int)0x7f000000. 02:12:41 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 02:13:31 ASau` [~user@p54AFEF5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 02:16:48 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF3C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19:41 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD62033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:58 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD62033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 02:21:30 fascinating stuff - in regards to the C snippet 02:22:18 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 02:23:43 but if 2^31 is MAX_INT, shouldn't it be "one more than" - mod 2^32? then it looks right 02:23:53 oh, it's not one more 02:25:25 and max_int is 2^31-1. need to sleep 02:26:00 Feng___ [~quassel@218.28.84.60] has joined #scheme 02:27:41 I'm sure this is an oversight in the text of the standard, because all the language lawyers think it's undefined behaviour. 02:30:07 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:31:20 -!- choas [~lars@p508973E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:31:36 checked c1x final draft, it's still there 02:31:38 choas [~lars@p508973E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 02:32:56 couldn't 'integer type' be 'unsigned integer'? 02:33:05 Where? 02:37:05 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:02 um, not sure where i picked it up. nvm, it's about 'integer promotions' 02:40:00 we are getting 2^31 if it's promoted to signed integer, right? but probably it could promote to unsigned one 02:40:19 looking in the specification now 02:41:58 If an int can represent all values of the original type (as restricted by the width, for a bit-field), the value is converted to an int; otherwise, it is converted to an unsigned int. 02:42:28 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 02:42:37 it's from 6.3.1.1 02:42:56 ouch, wrong pdf, it's for c1x 02:47:14 oxum [~oxum@122.164.157.149] has joined #scheme 02:48:41 -!- rapacity [~rapacity@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 02:51:19 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:54:28 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.157.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:54:35 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.141.206] has joined #scheme 02:56:32 but looks like it's the same for c99, so it should be signed int, and it should be broken still 02:57:31 oh, 6.3.1.3: When a value with integer type is converted to another integer type other than _Bool, if the value can be represented by the new type, it is unchanged. 02:58:42 uint8_t in this case will be promoted to int. 02:58:55 -!- oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.141.206] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:59:34 If INT_MAX = 2^31 - 1, then ((uint8_t)0xff) << 24 is equivalent to ((int)0xff) << 24, and the common value is given by (255 x 2^24) mod 2^31. 02:59:44 (The last formula is math, not C.) 03:04:14 This automatic conversion between signed and unsigned values is one of the worst aspects of C. 03:04:39 Go perhaps goes overboard in abolishing it; it requires explicit conversions for *all* mixed-mode arithmetic, a la Fortran II. 03:04:56 But I can see why. 03:06:46 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 03:14:06 Arithmetic in C is hard. 03:14:35 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:49 I assume you've seen the discontinuous integer round-to-power-of-two quirk, jcowan? 03:15:03 No, I haven't. 03:15:25 #define rounddown2(x, n) ((x) & ~((n) - 1)) 03:15:43 Rounds x down to a multiple of n, which is assumed to be a power of two. 03:15:57 Obvious, right? 03:16:04 But... 03:16:11 I assume it goes wrong with the smallest fixnum. 03:16:15 Most things do. 03:16:37 OK, n is assumed to be a positive power of two. 03:17:05 uint64_t x = UINT64_C(0x0123456789abcdef); 03:17:08 T n = 64; 03:17:21 printf("%016"PRIx64"\n", (x & ~(n - 1))); 03:17:53 Say we're on a nice, vanilla architecture like amd64 with sizeof(char) = 1, sizeof(short) = 2, sizeof(int) = 4, sizeof(long) = 8, and two's-complement arithmetic -- nothing exotic, nothing pathological. 03:18:32 I didn't say what T was. 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#scheme 14:53:32 -!- defanor [~defanor@ppp91-77-187-236.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:53:39 -!- defanor_ is now known as defanor 14:54:33 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 14:56:44 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 14:58:32 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:19 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05:04 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:06:14 -!- typhonic [~typhonic@66.83.14.218.nw.nuvox.net] has left #scheme 15:06:39 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:09:59 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 15:12:31 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 15:16:16 Not a C expert but is it something about the integer in `~(n - 1)' not being converted to the size of x soon enough, such that its MSBs aren't flipped to 1 by the ~ (which we had intended?), and instead it gets zeroes for its added MSBs due to the size conversion happening after the ~, so we end up zeroing some MSBs of x ? (Having wording difficulties here.) 15:18:55 (I.e. for any T shorter than the type of x, we will end up zeroing some most significant bits of x.) 15:20:30 vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.142.133] has joined #scheme 15:27:22 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:42 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-34-3.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:32:01 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 15:32:28 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-50-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:45:10 BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@d60-65-147-223.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:20 elly__ [~elly@veldt.leptoquark.net] has joined #scheme 15:48:30 -!- elly__ [~elly@veldt.leptoquark.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:30 elly__ [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 15:48:41 certainty [~david@www1.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 15:50:58 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:51:00 -!- elly__ is now known as elly 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