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00:36:02 <defanor_> i want to separate work with hardware from calculations, and to log interactions between those parts. probably to use something from Turner's and Stoye's papers about functional operating systems, it looks very nice. is there some more good papers about that or implementations of such systems? and any suggestions are welcome, because i'm not sure how practical could it be
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03:12:08 <SamuelSF> I don't know if anyone remembers, but I was here asking all sorts of questions about SICP.  I had to put it aside for a bit because of life, but now I'm the part where higher order procedures are being introduced. Mind = blown.
03:12:21 <SamuelSF> *I'm at the
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03:16:53 <cky> SamuelSF: Yes, higher-order functions are awesome.
03:17:16 <cjh`> :D
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03:21:40 <SamuelSF> I've got that feeling that tells me that I'm either about to have a mental growth spurt or my brain's going to leak out of my ears.
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03:37:02 <cky> SamuelSF: Lol.
03:37:16 <cky> SamuelSF: Well, have you learnt about fold yet?
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03:45:33 <SamuelSF> No.
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03:48:13 <SamuelSF> I'll get there when I get there.  What I like about this is that there's no magic plumbing (something like the public static void main(String[] args) in Java which you have to accept at first and it only makes sense later.) and I'm not fighting the language.  The difficulty comes from the ideas themselves, not the mode of expression.
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06:36:33 <chare> starcarft 2 project in scheme?
06:36:38 <chare> you guys like idea?
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07:55:16 <z0d> chare: any proof of concept?
07:55:32 <chare> i was hoping you would do the work
08:02:42 <bitwize> chare: no way
08:02:52 <chare> why not
08:02:55 <chare> you guys hate starcraft ?
08:03:13 <bitwize> no, we just don't work for free on someone else's project
08:03:32 <bitwize> if it's just an idea
08:04:00 <z0d> he didn't say "for free"
08:04:38 <bitwize> True, but I don't think he's set up to seriously commission that kind of work.
08:05:15 <bitwize> Call it a hunch.
08:05:35 <z0d> I don't think he is even serious
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08:06:13 <chare> its not my project its the communities proje.ct
08:06:27 <bitwize> what community?
08:06:32 <chare> all starcraft fans
08:06:55 <bitwize> Starcaft fans have Starcraft.
08:07:01 <chare> starcraft 2 sucks shit
08:07:09 <chare> we need a better thing than that
08:07:16 <bitwize> I don't know, a lot of people play and enjoy it
08:07:29 <chare> its a shitty sequel to brood war
08:07:31 <chare> AND YOU KNOW IT
08:07:41 <z0d> why?
08:07:51 <bitwize> Oh, and by the way, if you're going to be writing a high-performance game... you probably won't be using scheme
08:09:11 <chare> we don't need a stracraft clone to have super high res graphics
08:09:40 <bitwize> you do if you want a majority of starcraft fans to support it.
08:09:58 <bitwize> By today's standards SC1's graphics suck shit -- AND YOU KNOW IT
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08:11:33 <chare> we're not making battlfield 5 here
08:11:38 <chare> we are making starcraft rts clone
08:11:43 <z0d> well, you just need better sprites
08:11:53 <chare> it can be 3d
08:11:54 <z0d> SDL could work
08:12:01 <chare> just doesn't need to be super higher detailed 3d
08:12:38 <bitwize> But no one is going to buy a high-end PC just to play a crappy knockoff game at a decent speed
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08:13:04 <bitwize> SC2 isn't particularly high detail in its 3D
08:13:31 <bitwize> but it works a CPU and GPU pretty hard -- mainly because of all the different sprites that are on screen at once
08:13:32 <chare> but it runs slow as fuck on mediocre hardware
08:13:33 <z0d> well, it eats a good number of GPU cycles
08:13:38 <chare> why is sc2 such a resource hog
08:13:50 <bitwize> I don't know.
08:14:01 <z0d> because it has a lot of effects and physics
08:14:04 <chare> well lets assume its because their "brogrammers" are not very good
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08:14:07 <bitwize> But a broadly similar game written in Scheme is going to be even more a resource hog
08:14:34 <chare> I've noticed that the starcraft 2 menu LAGS imagine that, clicking on menu items has a 0.5 second delay
08:14:55 <chare> how the hell do you accomplish that?
08:15:05 <chare> its gotta be C++ inheritance hell
08:15:49 <bitwize> Fun fact: if you manage memory with a GC you need provably five times as much RAM as the same program with explicit memory allocation/deallocation
08:16:11 <chare> but if we program the game five times more intelligently than starcraft 2
08:16:12 <chare> its all good
08:16:24 <bitwize> So pretty much the entire game industry is going to stick with C++ for the foreseeable
08:16:37 <chare> ok fine if you complain about scheme
08:16:39 <chare> what about haskell
08:16:39 <bitwize> Scheme might could be used for high-level scripting of an engine
08:16:42 <chare> HASKELL
08:16:44 <chare> compiled
08:16:44 <bitwize> but Lua is better :)
08:17:10 <bitwize> still GC'd, and you have to do unsafe operations to get much performance out of it
08:17:54 <chare> how do you know you need unsafe
08:18:00 <chare> where is the performance hit coming from
08:18:28 <bitwize> laziness primarily
08:18:46 <bitwize> If you take the laziness out of Haskell you get -- roughly -- ML
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08:18:54 <bitwize> people HAVE written game engines with that
08:19:03 <bitwize> but good luck finding any library or middleware support
08:19:07 <bitwize> It's all in C++
08:19:23 <bitwize> So if you're going to write a PC game, use C++. End of story.
08:19:35 <chare> I'm going to assume you're underestimating the performanc hit of haskell
08:19:38 <chare> and use it anyways
08:19:43 <chare> err overestimating
08:20:11 <bitwize> Anyway, I don't see what's so bad about Starcraft 2.
08:20:24 <z0d> that's it's not written in Scheme <-:
08:20:25 <chare> we make up the performance hit of haskell by getting parallelism because its purely functional
08:21:02 <bitwize> That's what's so bad about everything, from our CPUs' microcode on up :)
08:21:35 <bitwize> But in this universe on the platforms we have to hand, SC2 is the best SC came we're going to get until Blizzard creates SC3
08:21:53 <z0d> we need a new Symbolics hardware!
08:21:54 <chare> blizzard sucks shit at making games now
08:21:57 <chare> its all graphics now
08:22:25 <bitwize> Millions of WoWtards and SC fans and practically all of South Korea would disagree, chare
08:22:29 -!- vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:22:42 <bitwize> But if you want to challenge them, go on and lay some code down yourself :)
08:22:56 <chare> I'm not using fucking C++
08:23:07 <chare> i'm not going to deal with 20 minute compiles
08:25:35 <z0d> Assembly!
08:26:17 <bitwize> I wrote a game framework in objective-c
08:26:35 <chare> So its decided we are going to use Haskell
08:26:57 <chare> since we are not building a AAA game Haskell should be fast enough
08:29:40 <chare> are you guys with me?
08:31:52 <z0d> sure. we at #Scheme are eagerly waiting to start a new project in Haskell
08:35:33 <chare> YOU SERIOUS?
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08:38:04 <ksinkar> what is equivalent of trace from Common Lisp in Scheme?
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14:37:40 <TaylanUB> ksinkar: That would be implementation-dependent; no Scheme standard has such a thing.  (I suppose you already found out since you asked the same question in #guile.)
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16:14:42 <ksinkar> TaylanUB: yes I found out. Thank you
16:14:59 <ksinkar> it is ,trace (procedure-name arguments)
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23:10:24 <SamuelSF> Hey,  I have a something of a syntax question.  It's detailed here: http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZSX
23:11:59 <Riastradh> You can write either (DEFINE <variable> <expression>) or (DEFINE (<variable> <parameters>) <body>).  <Body> and <expression> aren't the same -- a body is a possibly empty sequence of definitions followed by a nonempty sequence of expressions.
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23:12:46 <ijp> SamuelSF: (define (foo bar) (define quux zot) baz) is shorthand for (define foo (lambda (bar) (define quux zot) baz)) not (define foo (define quux zot) (lambda (bar)  baz))
23:15:17 <SamuelSF> Thanks
23:15:35 <ijp> as to why we couldn't define define to take multiple expressions, wrapped in a let-nil, well, we could, but we haven't
23:16:29 <ijp> I'm not sure there is a better reason than that
23:17:09 <ijp> rudybot: whack me with the knowledge stick
23:17:11 <rudybot> ijp: Alice and Bob called. They want you to whack Eve.
23:17:38 <ijp> rudybot: will they pay well?
23:17:38 <rudybot> ijp: who sponsors them so they can pay you?
23:17:47 <ijp> a good question
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23:57:04 <chare> starcraft clone project
23:57:21 <SamuelSF> chare, in scheme?
23:57:27 <chare> why not?
23:57:33 <SamuelSF> Sounds cool.
23:57:55 <SamuelSF> But why clone StarCraft?  Make an RTS.
23:58:04 <chare> thats what i mean
23:58:10 <SamuelSF> Ah.
23:58:18 <chare> make the spiritual successor to starcraft
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23:58:55 <SamuelSF> Does Scheme have the libraries?
23:59:22 <chare> you make them
23:59:29 <SamuelSF> me?
23:59:38 <SamuelSF> I think you're grossly overestimating me.