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09:38:23 effy [~quassel@114.246.87.188] has joined #scheme 09:39:15 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD924F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:39:54 taylanub [tub@p4FD900F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:43:08 R7RS-small doesn't require exported bindings be immutable, right ? Only imported ones; whereas calling a procedure of the library can mutate that binding. 09:51:15 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 09:59:46 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:07 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 10:15:07 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:15 pangxiaoniu [~cuoshi@211.151.238.51] has joined #scheme 10:23:34 -!- trc [~vishesh@122.177.253.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:36:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 10:37:00 trc [~vishesh@122.177.253.157] has joined #scheme 11:04:01 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 11:04:02 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:38:52 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection 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15:26:04 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:15 If (+ 1 2) is polish notation, and (1 + 2) is infix notation, what is add(1, 2) called? 15:31:49 I might say algebraic, but they are all algebraic notations, right? 15:33:32 (oops I need to step out, but I'll read the logs / be back later) 15:36:11 just "functional notation" I guess 15:38:21 outfix? circumfix? 15:38:37 (+ 1 2) -- prefix; (1 2 +) -- postfix 15:38:38 you're just making that up 15:38:39 Fixit 15:39:05 Perl6 has operators it calls "circumfix", because they are bracket-type operators that go around other things 15:39:39 if he had said add[1;2] it would have called it a m-expression 15:39:50 bah, editing fail 15:40:03 s/called it/been/ 15:40:23 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 15:43:13 acarrico: That's just a variant of prefix notation. 15:51:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:41 -!- blz37 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have a lot of segmentation faults with chicken scheme, with various libs. is it that unstable, or am i unlucky? 16:12:48 waxysubs [hope9@world.peace.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:44 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:17:59 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:01 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.141.110] has joined #scheme 16:22:50 -!- DGASAU [~user@astaro-nat.exasol.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:23:51 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:28:32 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 16:30:18 acarrico : afaiui, `(+ 1 2)' isn't polish notation. `+ 1 2' (with the understanding that `+' takes to operands) would be 16:30:55 e.g. `+ + 1 2 + 3 4' would correspond to `(+ (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4))' 16:32:15 (also note that concatenative languages like Forth doesn't really use Reverse Polish Notation. you can't say `3 dup *' in that, for that you need a stack -- one could perhaps say that Forth supports RPN (and more), though) 16:36:09 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:39:07 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:40:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 16:42:50 I'm back. 16:43:01 Wow. No easy answer to that question! 16:45:07 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:45:51 -!- vraid [d91bbc5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.27.188.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:46:23 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:51 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:06 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-198-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:40 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-55.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:51:21 you might call `add(1, 2)' "traditional math function application notation", perhaps, or somesuch 16:56:25 yes, ijp sayd "functional notation" above. 16:56:29 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 16:56:53 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:57:20 It is weird that there aren't standard names or some taxonomy for these. I'd sort of expect a wikipedia page that would lay all this out. 16:57:31 Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:59:22 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:03:03 probably there's no standard name since it's so ubiquitous 17:04:58 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 17:11:05 John McCarthy writes "It is usual in mathematicsoutside of mathematical logicto use the word function imprecisely and to apply it to forms 17:11:06 such as y^2 + x." It seems like in the late 1950's these notational issues screwed him up for a while. 17:12:19 well, saying `y^2 + x' is a function of `y' means that we're considering the function `y |-> y^2 + x' (as implicitly determined by the expression, and the mentioned variable) 17:12:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13:13 saying that `y^2 + x' is a function, period, would be something else -- perhaps `x' and `y' are functions from reals to reals, and we have defined `+' and `^' "pointwise" 17:14:15 presumably they mean y is defined implicitly by an equation like y^2 + x = 0 17:14:33 however, saying that `y^2 + x' is a function, or talking about "the function `y^2 + x'" is just sloppy wording, if you really meant any of the functions `x |-> y^2 + x',`y |- y^2 + x',`(x,y) |-> y^2 + x',`(x,y,z) |-> y^2 + x',`z |-> y^2 + x',&c. 17:15:06 that's yet another possibility, in case there's such an equation, yes 17:15:38 (btw, cf. "derivative of a function" vs. "derivative of an expression wrt a variable") 17:16:01 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 17:16:27 calculus classes are pretty unclear about that distinction 17:16:43 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:23 He adopted lambda expressions to save himself. He talks about this in MIT AI memo 2, but I could only find part of page 1 on the net. Perhaps the rest is lost. 17:18:09 Essentially he is trying to patch up the use of higher order functions in AI Memo 1's maplist. 17:18:44 Trying to talk about those issues is tricky without any vocab. 17:20:08 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.141.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:21 then there's Frege, who around the beginning of last century used "function" solely for "expression with (possibly many instances of) hole", reserving "course-of-values" for what we think of as "function value" today 17:20:50 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 17:21:49 (in his vocabulary, it's impossible for a function to be an argument of an (ordinary) function -- however, later, he developed higher-order versions of his functions, sortof corresponding to macros (think of a macro taking another macro as argument)) 17:22:48 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@cs181170084.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:12 iow, Frege chose to use the idea of a formal expression with parameters as the basis for his functions, as opposed to an abstract entity (a relation) relating exactly one output to each input, or to a computational procedure that can compute an output given an input 17:24:45 -!- zaid_h [~quassel@modemcable145.17-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:26:15 so, professor ski. when did we get the modern definition of function? 17:26:24 peterhil [~peterhil@cs181170084.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:26:38 I think I'm following you. There is always slippage between concept and notation. 17:26:58 pnkfelix [~Adium@23-25-200-109-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:11 I haven't read the body of Sussman's Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics, but iirc he complains about these issues in the introduction to that. 17:28:46 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:29:14 ski: wait, what does "function value" mean? 17:32:16 Frege is distinguishing between the reepresentation of a (modern) function, which he calls a "function", and the actual function object, which he calls a "course of values". 17:33:18 It's the numeral/number distinction over the domain of functions. 17:34:57 ok I see. 17:45:34 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD601C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:02:01 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:02:38 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:26 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@23-25-200-109-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:28 zaid_h [~quassel@modemcable145.17-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:32:47 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@cs181170084.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:34:38 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:40:11 peterhil [~peterhil@cs181170084.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:40:58 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 18:53:08 pnkfelix [~Adium@23-25-200-109-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:10 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD601C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:58 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@cs181170084.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:01:19 ijp : not quite sure. the abstract "every input uniquely determines an output" presumably arrived around the same time as set theory 19:01:45 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:02:05 zmj|motox [~zmjjmz@2620:0:2820:a0b:a8d4:1ffb:3d02:503e] has joined #scheme 19:03:53 ijp : and for the computational view, to some extent it's been present in the formal expression with hole view, as well as in describing construction procedures in Elementa. recursion/computation theory (including realizability interpretation for Heyting arithmetic) in the early last century started investigating this view more in detail 19:04:36 tcsc [~tcsc@50.28.162.69] has joined #scheme 19:05:58 (also see Brouwer-Heyting-Kolmogorov (BHK) interpretation of intuitionistic logic) 19:06:06 (and there's of course lambda calculus, turing machines, Post canonical system, &c. as well) 19:07:44 defanor_: There's a #chicken channel. 19:08:11 *ski* . o O ( , ) 19:09:06 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:07 *ski* . o O ( "Five Stages of Accepting Constructive Mathematics" by Andrej Bauer in 2013-03-18 at ) 19:09:11 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:57 taylanub: thanks 19:10:42 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD601C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:10:59 acarrico : the value computed by e.g. a (let's assume non-side-effectful) lambda expression in Scheme, representing a mapping from potential input values to (uniquely determined) corresponing output values 19:12:32 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC63135.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:12:52 what Frege calls "function" is probably best thought of as roughly a function at the meta (e.g. macro) level, taking some argument expressions (not analyzing them), and plugs them into holes into some "template" expression (possibly duplicating some input expressions, possibly not using some input expressions) 19:13:07 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-57-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:12 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:26 -!- zmj|motox [~zmjjmz@2620:0:2820:a0b:a8d4:1ffb:3d02:503e] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:10 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:16:15 e.g. in `Ada hand-debugs the program.', we can "view this as a function of `the program'", and what is left after we "remove" `the program' is a function. it's an *incomplete* thing, not a proper expression 19:16:58 in `four is greater than two', we can "view this as a function of `four' and `two'", getting a two-place function when we abstract those out 19:17:00 defanor_: BTW I'm not a Chicken user, but from all I know it's quite a respectable implementation, so your segfaults certainly sound very atypical. 19:18:42 in `four is greater than four', we could do the same as above, but we could also "view this as a function of `four'", getting a "template" with "a single hole, although with multiple occurrences 19:18:47 " 19:18:50 -!- zaid_h [~quassel@modemcable145.17-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:19:27 one can then go on to abstract out *function*-shaped holes from expressions, and so on .. 19:23:00 Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:54 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:51 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.103.41] has joined #scheme 19:37:34 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:12 -!- towodo [~anonymous@209-6-114-78.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: towodo] 19:38:48 -!- alexei___ is now known as amgarchIn9 19:49:03 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:51:07 vnz [~vnz@server.ot.mk] has joined #scheme 19:51:24 -!- vnz [~vnz@server.ot.mk] has quit [Changing host] 19:51:24 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined 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