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03:00:45 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD6180F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:01:34 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD6180F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:25 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 03:21:03 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:58 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 03:26:40 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:30:35 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD6180F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:42:25 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:43:31 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:43:47 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 03:53:48 Zarglebloit! 03:56:01 word 03:56:27 -!- fadein [~Erik@c-67-161-246-186.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:58:23 Riastradh: Your search - Zarglebloit - did not match any documents 03:58:34 germ13 [~germ13@cpe-75-84-12-100.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:00:07 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:05:11 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.210.190.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:08:10 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.210.143.60] has joined #scheme 04:26:16 teleScope [~cong@120.206.155.251] has joined #scheme 04:33:42 -!- duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:22 fadein [~Erik@c-67-161-246-186.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:21 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:45:42 Hi everyone! I've started reading SICP, but I'm having trouble setting up MIT/Scheme. I'm running Ubuntu 13.10, but when I type "sudo apt-get mit-scheme" into a terminal I get an error message. 04:45:47 It reads as follows: 04:45:49 Reading state information... Done 04:45:49 Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have 04:45:49 requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable 04:45:49 distribution that some required packages have not yet been created 04:45:50 or been moved out of Incoming. 04:45:51 The following information may help to resolve the situation: 04:45:54 The following packages have unmet dependencies: 04:45:56 mit-scheme:i386 : Depends: libmhash2:i386 but it is not going to be installed 04:45:58 E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. 04:47:26 I think these days the recommendation is to use Racket with the SICP language that someone created 04:47:37 hm... 04:47:39 Okay. 04:47:46 Or at least, I've seen that recommendation a lot 04:48:12 adiii [~adityavit@c-50-136-206-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:53 I don't know much about programming. Someone told me that I should give SICP a shot because of math background. 04:49:07 I took an intro course in Java a lifetime ago. 04:56:31 SamuelSF, you might try How To Design Programs (http://www.htdp.org/). 04:57:21 I've heard of that one too, but I want to try to eat the elephant with SICP. 04:58:39 Whenever a book or topic has an aura of difficulty surrounding it, it motivates me to prove myself. 05:01:01 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@67-2-122-205.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:01:41 igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@67-2-122-205.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:17 Understood. The SICP lecture videos (http://archive.org/details/mit_ocw_sicp) are also entertaining. 05:02:36 you could read them both side by side 05:09:17 Are they different enough to justify it? The way I understand it, How To Design Programs was written to fix what was perceived pedagogical errors in SICP. 05:09:29 *were perceived to be 05:11:08 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:26 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:02 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:17:25 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:17:37 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@67-2-122-205.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:09 Okay. DrRacket with SICP language has been acquired. 05:22:41 igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@71-219-131-138.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:19 i decided to read htdp first because i didnt know scheme. sicp would have been too verbose for me and i wouldnt have gained much from reading it 05:38:15 vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.155.17] has joined #scheme 05:39:49 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:47:33 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye!] 05:47:37 SamuelSF: http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ 05:48:54 SamuelSF: htdp is quite different from SICP 05:49:15 they both teach what amounts to Scheme and introduce some similar topics 05:49:41 but the exercises and writing is very different, plus SICP covers advanced stuff like writing interpreters and creating register machines 05:52:14 SamuelSF: if you have a background in abstract algebra you might like Haskell better 05:56:00 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 05:56:21 I messed with groups, rings and modules, but I stopped short of Galois theory. 06:01:35 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:01 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:02:06 SamuelSF: it turns out that a lot of computer science theory can use algebraic structures to describe what's going on 06:02:14 e.g. monoidic structures are very common 06:02:24 string concatenation for example 06:02:44 but you can do that in scheme perfectly fine 06:02:50 haskell just generalizes it 06:02:51 nisstyre are you suggesting Haskell because the theorems of abstract algebra relate to it directly or because the mode of thinking carries over? 06:02:59 SamuelSF: the mode of thinking 06:03:19 SamuelSF: though it does use some ideas directly 06:03:39 maybe it bastardizes them a bit though 06:04:08 Monoid is like a group, only elements don't necessarily have an inverse, right? 06:04:24 associativity + a binary operation with an identity element 06:04:59 So strings with concatenation as the operation would have the empty string as the identity. 06:05:02 cosmez_ [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has joined #scheme 06:05:06 iirc it's like one step up from a groupoid 06:05:13 SamuelSF: yes 06:06:46 SamuelSF: Haskell lets you write general functions like something that takes a bunch of things that are monoidic and concatenate them, or do other things with them 06:07:05 you can't really do that in Scheme without a lot of scaffolding 06:07:23 -!- cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:07:27 if that sort of thing appeals to you then you might like it 06:08:41 I want o get into programming, but I want to like it. I went to a local hackerspace and I was told to disregard all this esoteric stuff, learn ruby, make web apps and collect $. I have nothing against doing the later, but I was turned off by the disregard for the more interesting stuff. 06:10:11 SamuelSF: well if you're a mathematician or someone into math looking to get into programming then you will probably be bored making web apps with ruby 06:10:29 Yeah. 06:11:02 have a look here http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 06:11:17 then maybe explore SICP after that 06:11:28 from there on there's all kinds of interesting stuff 06:14:10 What is Haskell typically used for? 06:14:55 -!- teleScope [~cong@120.206.155.251] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:15:35 SamuelSF: for fun 06:15:54 SamuelSF: it's used by people writing compilers, websites, tiling window managers, to some extent games, and other crazy stuff 06:16:40 it is quite good at most things, though you wouldn't use it if you are in the embedded space for example 06:19:00 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry 06:20:18 SamuelSF: http://corp.galois.com/ (you may recognize the name :P) 06:21:39 It seems like Haskell is used for a lot of programming that requires a high degree of domain specific knowledge 06:22:30 SamuelSF: that's really most things, but it is good at "mundane" stuff as well 06:24:24 Cool. 06:24:38 Alright, I got ghci set up. 06:27:04 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:37 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-50-136-206-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:42:59 the sort on chapter 12 blew my mind. i need coffee 06:45:42 -!- ebzzry_ is now known as ebzzry 07:00:23 jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-25.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:01:54 palach [~palach@89-178-42-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:19:50 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 07:20:42 chare [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has joined #scheme 07:21:01 Can someone explain what is Racket and why it was created, what was wrong with Scheme? 07:40:05 -!- chare [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has left #scheme 07:57:47 -!- palach [~palach@89-178-42-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:53:31 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:57:56 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 12:32:06 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:34:46 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:46:43 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:54:49 palach [~palach@89-178-42-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 12:58:13 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.155.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:05:06 -!- serhart [~serhart@bonerbonerboner.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:06:44 -!- mario-goulart [~user@email.parenteses.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:53 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:17:31 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:21:04 -!- palach [~palach@89-178-42-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:24:56 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 13:31:06 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31:21 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:31:32 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-134-25.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:36:33 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 13:52:30 serhart [~serhart@bonerbonerboner.com] has joined #scheme 14:11:26 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 14:16:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:26 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 14:19:37 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.107.57] has joined #scheme 14:24:27 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:26:47 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:30:11 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:52 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:35:08 -!- tenq|away [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 14:42:31 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:59:34 zzach [~zzach@dslb-092-073-106-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:32 Does a portable command / function / macro exist which loads a scheme source file only once? 15:07:55 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-25.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:08:19 zzach: No, in general, but it's easy to do such a thing yourself. 15:12:14 jcowan: how to recognize that a file was loaded? 15:13:39 -!- tippenein [~bo@199.195.252.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:56 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:13:59 Use a global variable *loaded-files* and write require and provide functions. 15:14:17 Require checks *loaded-files* to see if its argument is there, and loads it with 'load' if not. 15:14:29 Provide puts its argument onto *loaded-files* 15:14:31 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:40 Some Schemes have these already. 15:25:54 jcowan: Will try to adapt/use require-file from http://irreal.org/blog/?p=83 . 15:29:59 vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.142.178] has joined #scheme 15:33:38 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:39 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.141.110] has joined #scheme 15:46:40 juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has joined #scheme 15:49:02 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-134-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:09 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:45 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-134-25.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:53:07 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.210.143.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:53:52 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD91042.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:54:21 taylanub [tub@p4FD90119.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 15:56:03 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-212-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:31 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-212-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:56:43 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:01:25 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:14:34 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:17:04 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 16:21:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-25.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:29 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.107.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:13 lo zzach 16:32:43 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC63FFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:32:59 true-techie_ [~chatzilla@72.252.124.67] has joined #scheme 16:33:08 -!- true-techie [~chatzilla@72.252.124.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:23 -!- true-techie_ is now known as true-techie 16:59:23 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 17:04:45 tenq|away [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has joined #scheme 17:04:47 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 17:05:51 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:05 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31:19 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:41:41 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:12 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.141.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:14 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 17:59:22 gzg [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:00:03 germ13 [~germ13@cpe-75-84-12-100.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:22:41 ijp [~user@host86-132-92-201.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:37:22 SamuelSF [~samuel@c-50-138-96-180.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:24 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 18:41:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:20 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC63FFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:58:19 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:05:45 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.142.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:06:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:08:39 vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.143.252] has joined #scheme 19:17:47 -!- germ13 [~germ13@cpe-75-84-12-100.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:18:28 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:20:04 Anyone here understand both SRFI-72 and Racket's macro model? I'm going to try reading SRFI-72, and want to be able to ask questions about it 19:20:25 *offby1* chuckles 19:20:51 asking questions is easy; getting answers is the hard bit 19:23:59 you should try just asking the questions and see what people say 19:24:18 since generally IME people are quite cagey about claiming general expertise over an area but are happy to answer questions they do know 19:24:53 either that or post your racket question to the mailing list, where, at the very least, matthew flatt will know ;-) 19:25:01 -!- miloshadzic [~miloshadz@212.62.62.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:36:37 Here's something funny. I'm doing exercise 1.7 from SICP and no matter how small I make the error tolerance for the approximation, I just can't get a decent number for sqrt(.001) 19:37:03 I get something to the effect of .03162... 19:37:11 Which is a pretty big error. 19:40:50 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 19:43:45 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:49 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:43:49 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 19:45:30 All the decimals you gave are correct. 19:45:43 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:08 SamuelSF: that's an extremely good approximation for sqrt(0.001) 19:46:25 > (* 0.03162 0.03162) 19:46:25 0.0009998244000000002 19:46:44 the 'actual' answer is 0.03162277660168379 19:46:55 hash hash yow! 19:47:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:47:36 Sgeo, you can ask questions here. What's your goal? If you want to understand how hygienic macros work, I would suggest starting with Jonathan Rees's article `Implementing lexically scoped macros' in Lisp Pointers. 19:49:49 When you computer like that, yes, but (.03162277660168379 - .01)/.01 > 2 19:50:06 So it's still over 200% off. 19:51:42 er, why are you computing the error like that 19:51:46 Are you trying to compute (sqrt .001) or (sqrt .0001)? 19:52:06 rudybot: (sqrt .0001) 19:52:08 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 19:52:08 Riastradh: ; Value: 0.01 19:52:09 rudybot: (sqrt .001) 19:52:09 Riastradh: ; Value: 0.03162277660168379 19:52:24 I'm just trying to see how the algorithm with Newton's method behaves with small numbers. 19:52:41 It behaves just fine; but 0.01 is not the square root of 0.001. 19:53:07 ... *faceplant* 19:55:24 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 19:56:58 maybe you're thinking of 0.0001, yeah :P 19:58:30 *SamuelSF* scurries and hides. 20:03:28 'e's a cagey one, all right 20:07:16 don't spook 'im 20:12:02 I'm dipping my toe in programming and a friend told me that I might like to SICP. 20:12:17 your friend has good taste 20:12:57 I went to a local hackerspace seeking mentoring, but I was told to disregard all that "theoretical" stuff, learn ruby on rails and make web apps. 20:13:08 *elly* shrugs 20:13:26 be as a physicist among mechanics :P 20:13:54 physicists go to the mechanic to get their car fixed 20:14:19 and Scheme programmers should maybe hire Ruby people if they need a webapp done in two days :P 20:14:31 preferably one that doesn't work 20:14:52 "are there other kinds of webapp?" 20:14:59 no 20:15:39 if it works, it just means google is planning on end-of-lifeing it soon 20:15:48 My very naive armchair perspective is that I should try to become a good programmer, not a "language x" programmer. What's important is the logical thought process of designing software. Picking up language x then becomes a matter of fiddling around with the tools and reading the documentation. 20:16:00 sure 20:16:08 Scheme is a pretty good place to start :) 20:16:23 Python is good too. But it lacks a very important thing. 20:16:33 It lacks an instructor wearing a fez. 20:16:50 hahaha 20:19:18 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:58 SamuelSF: just be aware that you'll probably learn to always miss certain lisp features in other languages 20:20:04 they just don't feel as great as they did before :-/ 20:20:11 yep :P 20:20:18 although, well, I dunno 20:20:22 learning Scheme did not ruin C for me 20:20:26 although it did ruin Perl :P 20:20:49 learning Scheme did not ruine C for me either, using C did 20:21:07 Damn, you peeps sound like serious hackers. 20:21:07 aw, poor you 20:21:10 I still really love C 20:21:26 SamuelSF: I dunno about that :P we're just all (almost by definition) "language enthusiasts" 20:21:52 I still remember the first time I saw the number of lines needed to make sure you actually read the full n bytes from a file including all error handling... 20:22:16 and then you realized you could write a function for that and not have to think about it again? :P 20:22:31 except every function is like that 20:22:40 I'm learning scheme and C 20:22:54 ijp: *shrug* someone has to be writing code at the layer of abstraction where those failures are important 20:23:00 even if it is just people writing Scheme runtimes :) 20:23:15 (scheme) is my favorite language to think in 20:23:28 and I like guix 20:23:45 well (elisp) will probably be a good language to think in 20:23:50 I'm using the SICP language in DrRacket 20:23:57 cool! 20:24:08 Meh 20:24:30 I just couldn't figure out how to set up MIT-scheme 20:26:32 I would assume that most people don't use MIT-scheme for SICP these days 20:26:44 and racket has the picture language iirc 20:27:53 I really dislike how Berkeley uses python now to teach SICP 20:28:16 ; although, they do have a self paced version of SICP that uses (scheme) 20:28:24 self-paced 20:29:01 I mean why python? seriously. 20:29:11 because the people teaching it now like python 20:29:43 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:30:14 and because Python is a language they'll get to keep using after they graduate :P 20:30:43 yeah 20:32:44 something like 5-10% of candidates I interview have any functional language on their resumes 20:33:29 When you see one, do you bump them up in? 20:33:47 -!- ijp [~user@host86-132-92-201.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: depressed, need a donut] 20:33:55 nope 20:35:54 I'm gonna put Agda on my resume. That'll show 'em. 20:36:05 hehe :) 20:36:20 if I see candidates with neat languages like that I usually ask them about it, but it doesn't make much difference to my evaluations 20:36:32 for me it mostly comes down to the programming questions 20:36:47 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #scheme 20:37:05 What sort of questions do you ask? 20:37:16 you ask them questions like why is a man hole cover round? 20:37:20 haha, god no 20:37:21 I'm about to graduate so this is very relevant to my interests :D 20:37:35 eh, I don't want to give away any of the ones that I actually use 'cause they're good :P 20:37:38 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:57 but they'll often be, like, produce an interpreter for this small programming language, or design a data structure that supports these operations, or whatever 20:38:05 yikes 20:38:12 Sweet 20:38:21 That is exactly the sort of stuff I use Agda for :D 20:38:32 hehe 20:38:44 well, I let people use any language they like, so :P you could use Agda 20:39:17 Different question, if I wanted to prepare myself for an interview of that sort, what course of study would I pursue. I'm about to graduate with a BS in math, but I only had one Java class towards the beginning of my studies. 20:39:26 *should I 20:39:42 Data structures and algorithms, more or less. I'm graduating in math, too 20:39:50 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:55 Algebra couldn't hurt, either 20:40:32 SamuelSF: it depends wildly, I'm afraid 20:40:40 my experience is all with interviewing at just one place 20:40:46 and I've only done about 90 interviews 20:45:10 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 20:45:10 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:45:17 I would like to put together a programming self-study curriculum that I can follow, start contributing to projects on github and the like and leverage that into a coding job because I know I'll strangle students in a highschool and being an actuary seems unbearably dull. 20:47:39 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 20:49:41 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:55 effy_ [~quassel@114.246.87.188] has joined #scheme 20:54:54 -!- effy [~quassel@123.122.68.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:56:39 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 20:58:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:01:38 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:17 Heh. I just realized that if I use numerical methods to calculate the error in my approximation, there will be error in my error. 21:04:28 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.143.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:45 SamuelSF: well, write a bunch of code :) that's the best advice I have 21:04:49 solve interesting problems repeatedly 21:06:47 inkjetunito [~abcdefg@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has joined #scheme 21:06:50 I'm looking forward to writing a scheme interpreter as I follow along with SICP. 21:07:06 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 21:07:20 cool :) 21:08:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:44 Again, my armchair deduction with respect to programming is that knowledge concerning frameworks or libraries becomes quickly obsoleted, but knowing how to solve hard problems is rarer and has greater long run value. 21:09:57 sort of, yeah 21:10:10 experience with frameworks and libraries is actually quite valuable, because often the new and the old are fairly similar 21:10:52 And because some frameworks might teach to solve a problem in a different way than what one anticipated 21:11:53 So, elly, is trucking through SICP a good use of my time. It's not a useless academic exercise as some have told me? 21:12:25 I want to do it, because the book seems damn cool, but it would be nice to have a more practical reassurance. 21:12:50 It's not going to hurt 21:14:12 SamuelSF: personally, I doubt there's a much better way to spend that time than reading and working through SICP. I suggest you do the exercises too. 21:14:33 == ecraven 21:15:57 SamuelSF: I'm building a Scheme interpreter in Haskell, myself. It's fun. 21:16:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:16:11 even though MIT/GNU Scheme was originally used (and I heartily recommend it), it seems that Racket has at least the same level of support for SICP, and it additionally supports the picture language 21:16:12 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:54 *saul* wrote a Scheme interpreter in Forth (very educational, and fun). 21:17:06 That does sound cool. Maybe I'll try it in Factor 21:17:10 The other thing I'd like to learn is a decent understanding of linux. Like, what the package manager actually does, why .dep packages I've installed don't appear in ubuntu software manager, and what to do with tar balls. 21:17:13 Concatenative languages are pretty neat 21:17:16 *.deb 21:18:12 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-246-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:18:29 miloshadzic [~miloshadz@212.62.62.143] has joined #scheme 21:18:39 -!- pothos [~pothos@1-164-208-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:18:54 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 21:23:11 I don't even know how to begin thinking about writing interpreters for anything. I'm at square one when it comes to programming. 21:23:46 The most I've done is right little code snippets for solving ACM competition style questions. 21:23:54 *write 21:24:33 SamuelSF: SICP doesn't assume any prior knowledge of programming ;) some of the other books in the topic are good reads too 21:24:47 I'm following the book. 21:25:16 In fact, I like how direct and to the point it is. After getting used to math books, a lot of programming texts come off as too wordy and roundabout. 21:29:24 Here's a question, I know it's probably addressed later in SICP, but I'll ask it anyways. How do you write and efficient algorithm for computing fibonacci numbers in Scheme? The intuitive recursive way is painfully slow and scheme doesn't support looping with for or while statements. 21:29:32 *an efficient 21:31:13 SamuelSF: scheme has loops, also the way to write an efficient fibonnaci function is to use tail recursion with an accumulator 21:31:15 SamuelSF, you would use a technique called 'memoization'. 21:31:19 or just use binet's formula 21:33:41 Sgeo: i can answer some questions you might have about srfi 72 21:33:56 I still need to actually read it firt 21:33:57 first 21:34:11 Sgeo: but in general, only a few people are qualified to discuss it in detail 21:35:18 -!- inkjetunito [~abcdefg@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has quit [Quit: qQQQ] 21:42:16 guys, i asked before but is there an alternative to drrackets stepper? when the lists are long, its hard to keep track of whats going on 21:44:23 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:25 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:09 mg9b [~michael@37.9.189.237] has joined #scheme 21:56:32 -!- mg9b [~michael@37.9.189.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:10 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:36 SamuelSF: and that question is indeed addressed later in SICP :) 22:14:03 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.205.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:53 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 22:25:40 main [~main@agij131.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 22:26:09 I figured out how to write an iterative procedure that computer the fibonacci number in scheme. 22:26:26 -!- main is now known as pumpkin360 22:26:50 And I did it without reading ahead. 22:26:57 Just by thinking about it. 22:27:27 nice 22:27:54 Hi. Why do some interpreters yell (aka indicate ERRORS) at me when I define a function within a function but after some other things are already done ? 22:28:19 Is it okay to copy paste code to this channel? 22:28:34 SamuelSF: how mush ? 22:28:36 *much 22:28:39 try paste.lisp.org 22:31:43 nobody able to help "? 22:31:44 *? 22:31:54 http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZNQ 22:32:10 pumpkin360: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_sec_11.3 22:32:59 (a strict interpretation would not allow definitions after expressions in the bodies) 22:34:03 asumu: but isn't gambit's "scheme-r5rs" fully compatible with R5Rs ? 22:35:17 (fib 5) gives 8 22:37:04 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-212-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:21 well, you _did_ ask it to lie 22:38:58 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-6-117.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:42:59 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:43:59 Yeah, it's 1,1,2,3,5,8 with the inexing starting at 0, so (fib 5) should be 8. 22:44:20 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61B46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:45:47 *indexing 22:52:26 comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:59 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:05:18 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:19:37 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@agij131.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:27:36 githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-57-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:47:28 -!- comingtogetyou [~albert@adsl-71-156-32-9.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:07 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme