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21:05:47 <wilfredh> hi all
21:06:07 <wilfredh> I have a question about apply that I hope you could shed some light on
21:06:37 <wilfredh> since (apply + '(1 2 3)) is equivalent to (+ 1 2 3), could apply be implemented as a macro?
21:07:00 <wilfredh> I'm surprised to see it written as a procedure in the R5RS document
21:07:23 <ijp> wilfredh: (define (bar foo) (foo + '(1 2 3 4 5))) (bar apply)
21:07:37 <wilfredh> (or, for that matter, a function calling eval)
21:08:17 <ijp> in a classic eval-apply interpeter, that's roughly how it works
21:10:14 <wilfredh> aha, so (define (apply f args) (eval (append (list f) args)))
21:10:35 <ijp> wilfredh: in scheme, eval takes an environment argument
21:10:49 <ijp> and (append (list f) args) == (cons f args)
21:11:22 <wilfredh> argh, my default scheme interpreter is aliased to Racket 5.1
21:11:50 <wilfredh> hence the different eval behaviour
21:13:05 <pjb> wilfredh: you have to understand one thing about macros.
21:13:23 <ijp> anyway, you need to be careful with eval, because if your args are symbols, you'll perform variable lookup
21:13:24 <pjb> wilfredh: macros work at compilation time.  They transform code into code.
21:13:45 <pjb> wilfredh: macros cannot know what the value bound to variables at run time WILL ever be.
21:13:51 <ijp> (with your definition of apply)
21:14:16 <wilfredh> OK, so if I've understood correctly: it's not quite possible to implement apply in the library, and the R5RS document does indeed only describe which features *must* be provided by the interpreter
21:14:20 <pjb> So (apply + '(1 2 3)) can indeed be transformed by a compiler that can prove that apply is bound to the #<procedure apply> into (+ 1 2 3).
21:14:40 <pjb> wilfredh: but (apply + l) could not be transformed into anything!
21:14:52 <pjb> Consider: (let ((l (read))) (apply + l))
21:15:29 <wilfredh> sorry, I've written far more elisp than scheme and I mix the two occasionally
21:15:51 <ijp> wilfredh: with your definition of apply (apply car '(l)) => (eval (car l)) => l not bound
21:16:52 <wilfredh> (defmacro apply (f args) `(eval (cons ,f ,args)))) would work in an elisp context, mea culpa :/
21:17:50 <ijp> rudybot: (define (apply f args) (eval (append (list f) args)))
21:17:50 <rudybot> ijp: Done.
21:17:56 <ijp> rudybot: (apply car '(l))
21:17:56 <rudybot> ijp: error: l: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
21:19:26 <wilfredh> you've lost me -- surely you're not going to use apply in a context with undefined variables?
21:19:45 <ijp> wilfredh: compare with
21:19:48 <ijp> rudybot: init racket
21:19:48 <rudybot> ijp: your sandbox is ready
21:19:53 <ijp> rudybot: (apply car '(l))
21:19:53 <rudybot> ijp: error: car: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: pair? <NEWLINE>   given: 'l
21:20:07 <ijp> whoops
21:20:21 <ijp> rudybot: (apply car '((l)))
21:20:21 <rudybot> ijp: ; Value: 'l
21:20:57 <ijp> _that_ is why it isn't a good definition
21:20:59 <wilfredh> ah-ha, I'm following
21:22:57 <wilfredh> rudybot: (apply cadr '(1 (+ 2 3) 4))
21:22:57 <rudybot> wilfredh: your sandbox is ready
21:22:57 <rudybot> wilfredh: error: cadr: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: 1 <NEWLINE>   given: 3 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1 <NEWLINE>    '(+ 2 3) <NEWLINE>    4
21:23:27 <ijp> wilfredh: remember, it's a list of arguments to the funciton
21:23:33 <wilfredh> rudybot: (apply cadr '((1 (+ 2 3) 4)))
21:23:33 <rudybot> wilfredh: ; Value: '(+ 2 3)
21:24:06 <wilfredh> bingo, eval would be evaluating things it shoudn't
21:24:40 <wilfredh> thanks, this has been enlightening
21:26:32 <wilfredh> wait, if I may indulge in a little more elisp
21:26:44 <wilfredh> (defmacro apply (f args) `(cons ,f ,args))))
21:28:13 <wilfredh> this is safe, is it not? Is this not possible with hygienic macros?
21:28:55 <ijp> rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (apply2 f args) (cons f args))
21:28:55 <rudybot> ijp: Done.
21:29:10 <ijp> rudybot: (apply2 car '((a)))
21:29:10 <rudybot> ijp: ; Value: '(#<procedure:car> (a))
21:29:14 <wilfredh> (sorry for all these questions -- I've been writing an interpreter and it's been a lot of fun but it provokes a lot questions)
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21:29:19 <ijp> er, whoops
21:29:29 <ijp> rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (apply2 f args) (f . args))
21:29:29 <rudybot> ijp: Done.
21:29:35 <ijp> rudybot: (apply2 car ((a)))
21:29:35 <rudybot> ijp: error: a: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
21:29:40 <ijp> of course
21:29:59 <ijp> rudybot: (let ((a (list 1 2 3) )) (apply2 car ((a))))
21:29:59 <rudybot> ijp: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: '(1 2 3) <NEWLINE>   arguments...: [none]
21:30:11 <ijp> sigh, I fucked this one up royally
21:30:33 *ijp* whacks himself with the meditation cane
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21:32:04 <wilfredh> um, not sure what you were demonstrating here
21:32:12 <ijp> I'm not sure either
21:32:25 <wilfredh> rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (apply2 f args) (cons f args))
21:32:25 <rudybot> wilfredh: Done.
21:32:37 <wilfredh> rudybot: (apply2 car '((a)))
21:32:37 <rudybot> wilfredh: ; Value: '(#<procedure:car> (a))
21:32:48 <ijp> actually, why does that one work in elisp?
21:33:00 <ijp> since it would only work if the macro evaluated its arguments
21:33:15 *wilfredh* runs off to check his sample elisp was correct
21:33:21 <ijp> which macros don't do
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21:36:40 <wilfredh> (turns out redefining apply in elisp is a Bad Idea...)
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21:40:12 <wilfredh> ah, so the elisp was incorrect.
21:41:16 <wilfredh> ijp, pjb
21:41:23 <wilfredh> thanks for your help :)
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21:43:12 <ijp> rudybot: now, how can we best confuse wilfredh?
21:43:13 <rudybot> ijp: johnsu01 maxm- jehan cpt_nemo dixie anildigital_work TTilus fimblo clop2 ivenkys cods Rapp framling quotemstr baron- Ober monkeyiq Odin- wolf_ ybit hroptatyr muhoo quasisane Boney bersace_olfeo aperturefever atrus CrazyEddy newcup Kiba` setheus offbyone sbryant ob ski_ kini stepnem bpalmer sm oddmunds srid Silex yaotti_aw andrzejsliwa wilfredh Urchin NaCl prip RushPL fhd hober edlinde bigjust Aestas lokydor fasta nod
21:43:19 *ijp* facepalms
21:51:12 <pjb> wilfredh: furthermore, you cannot transform functions into macros, since that would break HOF: #+emacs (require 'cl) #+emacs (mapcar* 'apply '(+ - * /) '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6) (7 8))) --> (3 -1 30 0) ; wouldn't work anymore.
21:51:28 <pjb> wilfredh: in CL you could instead write a compiler-macro for it.
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22:20:16 <isaacbw> woah woah woah
22:20:31 <isaacbw> let is just a lambda
22:20:46 <isaacbw> mind blown
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22:24:05 <offby1> I know, right?
22:24:26 <offby1> ijp: I probably have a TODO item or bug or something about that
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22:25:34 <ijp> offby1: well, I doubt that was caused by a NAMES, but more likely the once a month accident on #emacs
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22:26:47 <offby1> ijp: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot/issues/24
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22:27:20 <ijp> hehe, smart guy posting that bug report
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22:35:23 <BW^-> anyone with Gambit 4.7.0 running online?
22:35:43 <BW^-> if so, can you please do (thread-start! #f) and tell the outcome
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23:08:57 <true-techie> i see some books using car and cdr. other books use first and rest. which book is right?
23:09:15 <ijp> neither
23:09:31 <true-techie> how so
23:09:39 <ijp> or rather, both
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23:10:38 <ijp> car and cdr are traditional, and they are "neutral names" in that they work even if you are using a pair in a non list fashion
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23:11:33 <ijp> first and rest are at least proper words, and they make some amount of sense, but they don't make as much sense when using pairs as pairs, rather than as parts of a list
23:12:04 <ijp> pick whichever convention you like, and be consistent
23:12:07 <offby1> what an odd answer
23:12:29 <offby1> some lisps have built-in "car" and "cdr" functions.  Others have "first" and "rest".  Yet others might have all four.
23:12:48 <offby1> In the first two of those three cases, you don't have a choice (unless you want to shlep around your own definitions, which is dumb).
23:12:56 <offby1> In the last case, use whatever makes you happy.
23:13:01 <asumu> Quick, someone make a Lisp with only `car` and `rest`.
23:13:13 *ijp* snorts
23:13:31 *offby1* yawns
23:13:33 <true-techie> Im going to stick with first and rest since that makes more sense
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