00:04:13 ski_ [~md9slj@t-2025-09.studat.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 00:15:27 davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:18 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-19-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:37 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-19-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 00:36:59 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-19-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:08 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-229-144.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 00:49:18 -!- zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE798BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53:21 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has joined #scheme 00:53:49 -!- es917 [~es@149.142.141.102] has quit [Quit: es917] 00:59:24 -!- davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Later] 01:07:05 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:15 teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has joined #scheme 01:20:16 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:19 bjz_ [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 01:25:16 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 01:39:16 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:19 -!- ijp [~user@host31-50-107-143.range31-50.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 01:51:05 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:10 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 02:10:39 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 02:22:21 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:48 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 02:33:00 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím] 03:03:41 tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 03:06:42 -!- teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:07:51 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:18 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 03:14:31 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:22:00 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 03:22:00 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:25 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 03:24:24 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 03:32:52 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 03:33:43 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:33:57 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:35:19 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:20 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:36:59 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 03:49:26 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-89-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:08 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Quit: time to reboot] 03:55:25 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:30 rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 04:02:19 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:20:00 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:25:01 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:27:52 Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:11 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ripp__] 04:44:53 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:45:05 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:25 Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:46:48 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #scheme 04:48:40 I've been wondering what the historical reasons are for why the value #f was separated from '() 04:54:47 doesthiswork: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-mail/HTML/rrrs-1990/msg00004.html 04:54:48 http://tinyurl.com/lzketv3 04:55:18 ddp [~ddp@wsip-68-110-169-4.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:32 -!- ddp [~ddp@wsip-68-110-169-4.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:26 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:13 I see, sometimes you would like to be able to use #f as an out of band failure indicator, and you can't do that if it also represents no result found 05:03:42 -!- SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:38 the 2006-02-03 entry "Option types, optional parameters" by Riastradh at (see "domain contagion") is perhaps somewhat relevant here as well 05:08:43 SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has joined #scheme 05:10:43 In APL I have seen that is very convenient to have 1 and 0 pun as true and false because then it becomes very simple to count the number of trues in a sequence (and all the other arithmetic functions are also available to operate on booleans) 05:11:45 This seems similar to the convenience of having everything that isn't #f register as true in a conditional. 05:14:24 option types are always nice 05:16:52 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ripp__] 05:40:11 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Pozdrav] 05:49:35 thank you folk, that was helpful 05:59:40 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:11:44 lazyden [~lazyden@58.185.121.38] has joined #scheme 06:12:00 -!- lazyden [~lazyden@58.185.121.38] has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:29 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:17:35 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:03 zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 06:23:25 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:24:48 teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has joined #scheme 06:27:45 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:22 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 06:43:54 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:58:13 protagoras [~his_shado@64.124.65.162] has joined #scheme 06:58:37 -!- protagoras is now known as Guest53212 06:58:47 Saeren_ [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has joined #scheme 07:01:00 -!- joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:01:03 tessier_ [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #scheme 07:01:08 -!- tessier_ [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 07:01:08 tessier_ [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 07:01:15 rsf [~recfor@173-166-112-249-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 07:02:43 slekrd [6570a922@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.112.169.34] has joined #scheme 07:02:59 -!- slekrd [6570a922@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.112.169.34] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:04:50 strmpnk [strmpnk@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-wtzynwldnssjwqxp] has joined #scheme 07:05:00 -!- zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:13 clog_ [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 07:09:24 wddd_ [uid11375@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snlxscrsvrvnniue] has joined #scheme 07:11:05 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:11:25 -!- xenophon [~his_shado@64.124.65.162] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:25 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:25 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE000e582ae076-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- Saeren [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- wddd [uid11375@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khbvigmakgebbzkb] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- shardz [~recfor@173-166-112-249-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- strmpnk_ [strmpnk@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-offscltpowhztkne] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:26 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:11:42 -!- wddd_ is now known as wddd 07:13:04 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:17:14 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #scheme 07:17:14 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE000e582ae076-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:36:03 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:49:52 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:00:25 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:05:25 Oejet [~oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has joined #scheme 08:11:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:12:04 tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 08:24:53 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #scheme 08:28:14 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD5650E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:33:00 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:03 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:39:14 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:50:01 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD5650E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:52:34 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD5650E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:10:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:17:40 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:20:06 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:23:02 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Pozdrav] 09:28:16 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 09:51:41 -!- Oejet [~oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:30 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:59:48 xwl [~user@182.48.101.22] has joined #scheme 10:01:03 republican_devil [~g@pool-108-47-76-56.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 10:01:27 ok 10:01:29 recursion 10:01:31 I get it 10:01:34 sicp 10:01:35 htdp 10:01:38 scheme 4th lang 10:01:41 dyvbig 10:01:53 ok who here is running a live web app on scheme? 10:01:56 is it awesome 10:01:57 ? 10:01:59 or awkawrd 10:02:00 ? 10:02:16 -!- republican_devil is now known as gavino_inthefles 10:02:31 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:03:46 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:07:17 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 10:11:17 scheme seems so powerful its almost sorcery 10:11:21 htdp 10:11:23 sicp 10:11:29 4th scheme dyvbig 10:11:32 I gota read 10:16:49 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 10:17:01 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 10:18:13 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:18:53 -!- gavino_inthefles [~g@pool-108-47-76-56.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:25:54 -!- xwl [~user@182.48.101.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:31 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 10:36:14 -!- ski_ [~md9slj@t-2025-09.studat.chalmers.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:37:42 Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:41:28 ski_ [~md9slj@t-2025-09.studat.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 10:44:05 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:49:43 taylanub [tub@p4FD93322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:50:17 xwl [~user@182.48.101.22] has joined #scheme 11:03:15 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ripp__] 11:04:31 longqm [~longqm@219.224.160.186] has joined #scheme 11:06:14 -!- xwl [~user@182.48.101.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:14 -!- longqm [~longqm@219.224.160.186] has left #scheme 11:14:21 -!- jr` [~user@109.175.27.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:37 -!- clog_ [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Quit: ^C] 11:17:49 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 11:22:19 SirDayBat [holttan1@gateway/shell/tkk.fi/x-siflfqptkzdpzryh] has joined #scheme 11:26:30 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD5650E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:43 znode [~znode@14.117.30.140] has joined #scheme 11:38:25 zett_zelett [~zett_zele@62.217.41.192] has joined #scheme 11:39:56 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:43:01 -!- zett_zelett [~zett_zele@62.217.41.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:44:02 Belaf [~campedel@net-2-40-11-147.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #scheme 11:45:58 ASau` [~user@p4FF97393.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:47:10 -!- ASau [~user@p5797E212.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:48:36 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:00:01 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 12:03:28 -!- Saeren_ is now known as Saeren 12:16:47 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #scheme 12:24:35 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #scheme 12:25:04 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 12:33:18 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 12:37:58 -!- noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:14 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:26 ijp [~user@host31-50-107-143.range31-50.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:24:44 davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 13:31:18 -!- teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:34:47 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 13:39:12 -!- ijp [~user@host31-50-107-143.range31-50.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:09 ijp [~user@host31-50-107-143.range31-50.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:49:31 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 13:56:48 ski [~md9slj@t-2020-07.studat.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:04:28 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #scheme 14:11:49 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:13:57 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 14:16:49 teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has joined #scheme 14:21:02 Is the "constraint system" used in 3.3.5 of SICP comparable to "functional reactive programming" ? 14:21:15 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 14:26:15 reactive programming sure, I guess, but I forget the distinction the "functional" brings to the table 14:27:50 According to Wikipedia, FRP is just RP "using the building blocks of FP" 14:28:19 and the sicp constraint solver is about as stateful as it comes 14:28:30 afaiu, that section is more related to "Constraint Programming" as in (mainly) "Constraint Logic Programming" 14:28:46 *ski* isn't sure what "reactive" entails .. 14:31:13 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:32:33 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:24 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 14:42:55 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:04 Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #scheme 14:43:39 taylanub [tub@p4FD93322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:43:50 Are there any reasons to use scheme instead of Tcl? 14:43:58 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 14:44:11 Necrosporus: Use what you like more. But maybe develop taste first. 14:44:54 I wasn't aware there were reasons to use Tcl 14:44:55 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:27 ijp :) 14:45:34 SWI-Prolog has support for CLP(FD),CLP(Q,R),CHR; SICStus Prolog has support for CHR,CLP(FD),CLP(B),CLP(Q,R); Yap Prolog has support for CHR,CLP(R),CLP(BN); ECL$^i$PS$^e$ has various, including CLP(FD),CHR and more 14:46:05 &brain-overflow. too many acronyms 14:46:28 and is that inline tex? 14:47:54 (`FD' is "Finite Domain (integers)", `Q' is rationals, `R' is real numbers, `B' is booleans, `BN' is "Bayesian Networks" (probability stuff), `CHR' is "Constraint Handling Rules", a general framework for specifying how constraints interact and reduce) 14:48:01 yes 14:48:20 ijp: Our manager was given a survey. It asked if what level of experience we have in GRASP OODP. Had to Google. 14:48:51 no idea about the first one, the last one is OO design patterns, maybe? 14:48:51 (and `CLP' is of course "Constraint Logic Programming") 14:49:00 ijp: Yes :) 14:49:52 great, I can half-think like a manager. I'll go get the pistol, and suicide note ready. 14:50:08 I told him it was all bullshit 14:51:40 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:52:03 taylanub, how to develop taste? 14:54:22 -!- rsf [~recfor@173-166-112-249-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 14:55:16 I don't know, I sometimes think I must've been born with it and get depressed out of empathy. 14:55:24 Well, more seriously, let's see .. 14:56:39 A technical evaluation of the features of Tcl and Scheme will probably leave Tcl favorers with mainly two arguments: 1) "Tcl is easier to learn" which is arguable and unproven, and 2) "It doesn't really matter much that the language is a bit worse, other things are much more important", which would be a valid argument to *continue* using Tcl, but not learn it from scratch. 14:57:47 For instance a company that has all its employees know Tcl would perhaps not benefit much from having them all learn Scheme now. Similarly, new employees would be better off learning Tcl so that they can share code with older employees without problems. 14:57:53 Etc. etc. etc. 14:58:41 ccorn [~ccorn@80.113.145.6] has joined #scheme 15:01:25 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:59 *ski* . o O ( Sit transit gloria mundi ) 15:04:18 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:05:08 taylanub, I started learning Tcl few days ago, but some people keep telling me Scheme is better 15:05:14 Though why is it better? 15:05:30 or is it so much better I'd drop Tcl and use it instead? 15:06:19 It supports more fundamental abstractions, gives the programmer more control, is more optimizable, the s-expression syntax is a huge advantage together with Emacs+Paredit, etc. 15:08:50 I have tried to learn common lisp before. While easy stuff like factorial was easy, I haven't managed to do anything even little more serious, while with Tcl I understand it well enough to actually write something interesting on the second day 15:09:31 Necrosporus: did you try reading Practical Common Lisp? 15:09:35 If it really is significantly easier to learn, then I suppose it might be a better choice for trivial scripts. 15:10:12 But if you intend to do programming for life, then Tcl will (or "should") leave you unsatisfied relatively soon. 15:10:37 Well, I know some C... 15:11:11 But it's not handy for quick solution, debugging is too hard 15:11:52 That's something even an experienced C user would agree to, the language is inherently less debuggable than a higher-level, more dynamic language. 15:12:30 taylanub: dynamic languages are less debuggable than static languages 15:12:31 About abstractions... Tcl supports apply command and classical functional operators can be defined rather easily 15:12:43 I'd rather debug some Haskell over Lisp any day 15:13:25 Nisstyre: Whatever, I just know that C's static type system doesn't help much. 15:13:27 Haskel is not linear type based though 15:13:33 Necrosporus: there is no point learning a new programming language because some other people think you should 15:13:53 (unless said people are paying you to) 15:14:04 taylanub: because it doesn't let you do much, sure you can define opaque types but you can't define new types with multiple parameters, no polymorphism, etc... 15:14:45 save the language fight for #ideologies please 15:14:47 Nisstyre: I'm not going to get into a static vs. dynamic argument, mainly because I don't know much about "proper" statically typed languages like the ML derivatives and Miranda derivatives. 15:14:56 taylanub: okay fine 15:15:23 I'm need to have some language which is good for quick scripting and making simple gui stuff, Tcl is probably a good choice, but I'm not sure if it's the best one 15:15:50 taylanub, Coq ? 15:15:59 Neither 15:16:25 Necrosporus: It's not going to be any *more* convenient than Scheme in the long run, once you know Scheme well. And with Scheme you can probably do some more serious general-purpose programming ... 15:16:29 Free Coq book -> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/ 15:16:34 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77bddd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:16:45 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d06748a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:58 does it come with free hours in which to read it? 15:17:06 Nope 15:17:16 It's the reason I read only first two chapters 15:17:27 If there wasn't all this repulsive cultism around static languages nowadays, I would enjoy it much more to look into them. 15:18:29 As it stands, I'm more inclined to e.g. look into Miranda instead of Haskell simply because the community around the latter can be so repulsive. 15:18:40 taylanub: repulsive in what way? 15:18:54 also I would recommend OCaml over Miranda 15:19:17 I'm judging based on one or two Haskell favorers I know so it's probably an unjust generalization, although I've heard someone who spent proper time with Haskell say the same thing. 15:19:29 *cough* 'Miranda' is a trademark of Research Software Ltd. 15:19:40 Nisstyre: The way I understand, OCaml is an ML, a different heritage than Miranda. 15:19:56 So they wouldn't teach one the same concepts. 15:20:08 I've written one "real" system in Haskell and my experience was that it is extremely easy to debug and get something up and running quickly but still be reasonably confident in 15:20:09 Nisstyre: And repulsive in the "higher than thou" attitude way, I suppose. 15:20:37 Nisstyre: I have the same experience with .. Emacs Lisp. 15:21:00 taylanub: okay, fair enough 15:22:14 taylanub: I think any language that supports metaprogramming well is easy to write relatively bug free code in quickly 15:22:30 taylanub: miranda isn't free software, if that matters to you 15:22:48 free as in gnu/free 15:22:58 ijp: The language itself is free in our minds. ;P 15:22:59 free as in freedom 15:23:31 But what's the point to use language you can't compile or run? 15:23:40 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce3.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23:48 Broaden your vision. 15:23:56 Learn, not use. 15:24:14 afaict all the main lessons of miranda were learned by haskell 15:25:04 What about J by the way? It's a functional high performance language, with native support for complex composed types like arrays, boxes and so on 15:25:04 taylanub: http://code.google.com/p/frege/ is another option 15:25:06 Yeah, I was just saying that since Haskell repulses me, I'd be inclined to learn the things it can teach from somewhere else. 15:25:10 if you're not averse to JVM languages 15:25:28 taylanub, Irdis maybe? 15:26:04 It's said to be more advanced than haskell, next-gen something 15:26:12 Necrosporus: it's dependently typed 15:26:18 Is it bad? 15:26:25 no, I don't think so 15:26:30 What's "bad" 15:26:44 dependently typed more or less means that there is no difference between values, types, and kinds 15:26:49 or at least that's my basic understanding of it 15:26:57 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 15:27:20 Necrosporus: You meant Idris not Irdis ? 15:27:43 Yes 15:27:50 OK 15:28:03 Clean is the other free non-strict functional language. It uses uniqueness types for purposes similar to "Lively Linear Lisp -- 'Look Ma, No Garbage!'" by Hnery G. Baker in 199[12] (though Clean uses GC (and no update-inplace) for non-unique data) 15:29:37 linear types are a neat idea, but I wouldn't want to write with them 15:29:48 Why not? 15:30:57 Clean infers uniqueness (which btw is distinct from linearity. that a value is linear means that we won't copy the reference to it in the future, but that it is unique means that it hasn't been copied yet in the past) 15:31:00 because number of references to data is a low level concept 15:31:46 Clean shares with Haskell higher-order parameterized types and type classes, which the MLs doesn't feature 15:35:41 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 15:38:46 zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 15:57:13 -!- teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:06 ofzyh [~qicruser@218.18.128.126] has joined #scheme 16:02:44 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:06:07 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@80.113.145.6] has left #scheme 16:09:35 -!- waxysubs [hope3@world.peace.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:12 teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has joined #scheme 16:28:07 -!- teleScope [~cong@111.222.112.61] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:06 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:17 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 16:43:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:21 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:48:27 -!- Kabaka_ [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:53 Kabaka_ [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 16:55:15 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 17:01:10 Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:35 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:02:19 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #scheme 17:03:45 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 17:10:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:34 tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 17:18:56 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:19:41 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ripp__] 17:21:48 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:22:33 Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:23:59 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:26:56 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 17:27:12 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:27:13 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:55 -!- davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:06 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:49:53 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 17:51:32 -!- ofzyh [~qicruser@218.18.128.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:03:41 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:12:53 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:13:03 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 18:19:51 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 18:21:30 Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has joined #scheme 18:24:21 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 18:30:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:41 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 18:38:02 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 18:41:29 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:50:35 noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 18:52:32 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:53:04 taylanub [tub@p4FD91A11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:08:58 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22:36 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 19:25:09 waxysubs [hope5@world.peace.net] has joined #scheme 19:48:00 davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:53:59 -!- YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:55 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:00:30 -!- microcode [~microcode@unaffiliated/microcolonel] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:13 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 20:15:22 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:16:04 -!- zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:02 microcode [~microcode@bas1-toronto04-1176175596.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 20:43:16 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:53:20 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:06 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #scheme 21:03:35 zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:05:21 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:07:28 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:40 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:20:51 -!- ijp [~user@host31-50-107-143.range31-50.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:30 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:36:18 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:49:53 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 21:51:11 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:00 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:33 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:55 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:40 -!- ski_ [~md9slj@t-2025-09.studat.chalmers.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:25:58 -!- zett_zelett [~zett_zele@p5DE7AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:01 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:07:08 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA32DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:04 defanor [~d@ppp91-77-113-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 23:22:43 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:24:46 -!- defanor_ [~d@ppp91-77-115-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:30:42 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 23:31:02 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:57 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:38 -!- mlamari_ [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:54 mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:53:03 -!- Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:55:19 Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 23:59:18 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme