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Should make-pathname use "\" as directory separator on windows? 01:57:02 IMHO no. 01:57:07 haroldwu_irssi [~haroldwu@42-67-9-246.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:29 The Windows kernel is perfectly happy using / instead. The only time you need to have \ is when you are firing up a batch file. 01:59:26 jcowan: here's a problematic case: supose you have a file "a" and you call (system (sprintf "del /q /s ~a" (make-pathname "." "a"))) 02:00:47 Mm, yes, I see. 02:00:53 It's "system" that has the problem, really. 02:00:58 indeed 02:01:04 (system (sprintf "...")) sounds like a terrible idea to me. 02:02:03 The thing is that command.com (?) interprets / as a prefix for command line options. 02:02:21 The thing is that "system" invokes command.com (or perhaps cmd.exe) 02:03:19 `Don't do that.' (execve "del" `("/q" "/s" ,a)) or whatever. 02:03:19 We could introduce a function system-path which maps / to \ on Windows, and is the identity on Posix. 02:03:34 Riastradh: That won't work on Windows, because del is a shell builtin. 02:03:44 (delete-file a) 02:04:22 Riastradh: /s is the WIndows version of -f 02:04:45 sorry, of -r 02:05:16 mario-goulart: I think the idea of system-path is the right one, although it's probably not the right name. 02:05:21 (delete-file-recursively a) 02:05:35 Randomly mapping characters like that is ridiculous. 02:05:54 If you want a way to quote appropriately for a Windows shell, call it that: windows-shell-quote or something. 02:05:56 Windows is ridiculous, but we are stuck with it. 02:06:17 Don't introduce Windows-specific nonsense with a generic-sounding name to give a bogus facade of portability. 02:06:33 `system` is inherently not portable. 02:07:06 But I think that's actually a good idea, mario-goulart; windows-shell-quote, which would translate / to \ and wrap the argument in "" if necessary. 02:07:13 It tends to be a bad idea too. 02:07:38 *jcowan* shrugs. 02:07:51 We can't provide a Scheme equivalent of all the thousands of CLI programs available. 02:08:02 What if make-pathname simply used "\" on windows (maybe not cygwin)? 02:08:12 It is seldom, if ever, what you actually want to invoke -- either to use a program composably or to run a program in the foreground. 02:08:28 mario-goulart: Definitely not on Cygwin. 02:08:38 ok 02:08:42 What real applications have you surveyed to find what they need to do here? 02:09:19 But my point is that even if the path contained \, that isn't really enough to use in the context of `system` anyway: you need to do appropriate quoting and maybe throw an error if there is an unusable character. 02:09:37 Riastradh: That formula won't work this time, as we are talking about a specific implementation. 02:09:47 which impl? 02:09:57 (late to the party as always) 02:10:13 jcowan: shouldn't quoting be a separate issue? 02:10:14 Chicken, I feel fairly certain 02:10:25 `I think on Windows we should probably do XYZ.' is a preposterous way to begin standardizing some portability kludge. `Application XYZ needs to do PQR on Windows, UVW on Unix, and LMN on TOPS-20. Application XYZ' needs to do PQR' on Windows, UVW' on Unix, and FGH on ITS. What can we provide to suit these needs well?' 02:10:48 Riastradh: That would be fair if we were standardizing something, but we are implementing something. 02:11:03 s/standardizing/implementing/1, the difference is immaterial. 02:11:29 Not so. Chicken explicitly works only on certain operating systems. 02:12:17 ... 02:12:29 You're missing the point. What do real applications need to do on those operating systems? 02:13:02 real applications? We are talking about scheme, Riastradh. :-) 02:13:56 Doesn't have to be Scheme applications! 02:13:59 Actually, for "operating systems" read "gcc config triples" 02:14:32 Applications don't have needs, users have needs. Using Scheme is not a user need. 02:14:57 So if the application is to work on ITS or TOPS-20, it cannot be written in Chicken. 02:15:16 Why are you trying to evade the real issue by focussing on irrelevant details? 02:15:26 Is there any problem in using "\" as directory separator on windows (not cygwin)? 02:15:26 Irrelevant to whom? 02:15:50 I gave ITS and TOPS-20 as contrived examples of where you might want to look at what applications need. 02:16:09 mario-goulart: The trouble is that it means we have logically two kinds of strings as a result, Windows paths and Posix paths, and we can put them together, but we don't know how to break them up. 02:16:17 The point is not those environments; the point is that you need to look at and analyze what real applications do or need to do. 02:16:18 (Or do we?) 02:17:04 jcowan: good point. decompose-pathname would probably have some extra work. 02:17:34 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the 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17:26:47 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 17:28:02 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:30:35 Hello folks. I have a question about `vector-binary-search` in mit-scheme. The documentation on it is a bit vague. I am trying to understand how it behaves.. Specifically, why the following happens https://gist.github.com/jteeuwen/b37667af4ad78ca9469e 17:30:55 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 17:30:56 Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:06 I am expecting to see each call yield the vector for the given key 17:31:31 It seems to work when the key is an integer and the comparator is `=`.. But it fails with the symbols and eqv? 17:32:19 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:10bf:7a36:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:32:55 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93478.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:29 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33:29 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:37 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:10bf:7a36:b3ee:137e] has joined #scheme 17:37:21 exch: binary search works on ordered keys 17:38:34 Ok.. They are ordered in that example 17:38:50 you should have a "less than?" function 17:38:57 mm ok 17:39:03 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3DE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:39:07 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 17:40:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:07 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:41:40 without such a comparision, binary search won't work 17:42:49 Then I guess using symbols as keys is out. There is no less-than comparator for those as far as I know 17:43:02 you can make your own 17:43:51 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:17 (lambda (a b) (stringstring a) (symbol->string b))) is probably the most obvious one, but feel free to be exotic/ridiculous 17:44:39 Thanks 17:44:57 I'll see if i can find a different way. I'm not sure I'm happy with the needed type conversion in this case 17:45:08 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46:03 you could use strings instead of symbols as keys to begin with 17:46:08 indeed 17:46:25 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:02 ubikation [~quassel@ip-64-134-132-143.public.wayport.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:23 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 17:49:04 I'll go with string keys then. Thanks for the help. 17:51:54 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 17:52:04 -!- jrapdx [~jra@98.246.145.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:55 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 17:58:42 Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:19 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 18:00:50 duggiefresh [~dyun@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 18:00:57  18:03:59 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3DE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:06:35 -!- Klaufir [~admin@109.232.224.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:34 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:14:52 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:23:56 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD56645.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:24:47 taylanub [tub@p4FD932BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:31:14 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined 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[~blbl@c76093.upc-c.chello.nl] has left #scheme 21:57:52 bonne nuit 21:58:01 -!- wwilly [~wwilly@26.51.29.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:02:28 -!- langmart` [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:09:42 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-183-116.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:14:07 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ripp__] 22:20:05 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 22:20:19 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:58 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:28:51 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:30:12 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:32:18 Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:53:53 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:28 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 23:08:30 -!- Qoj [~Joq@c-66-229-59-35.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:00 yacks [~py@103.6.158.106] has joined #scheme 23:20:45 Qoj [~Joq@c-66-229-59-35.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:26 tabemann [~travisb@adsl-76-228-199-124.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:57 I have a little question 23:30:06 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD56645.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:30:53 is the requirement that equal? be able to successfully compare cyclic data structures new for R7RS (or R6RS), as someone on StackOverflow reported that equal? did not terminate on cyclic data structures with a number of R5RS implementations 23:31:15 I don't recall any comment about cyclic structures in r5 23:31:18 if the r5rs required termination, I'll eat my hat 23:31:27 after first buying a hat 23:31:40 ijp: The trick is buying one made of rice paper :) 23:32:27 I'm spending quite a bit of time on implementing equal? for R7RS-small, first doing a model implementation in Haskell outside of my Scheme impl, and then I'll transfer that to using Scheme data types once I get it working 23:32:34 quoth the r5rs "Equal? may fail to terminate if its arguments are circular data structures" 23:32:46 Ah, there we go :) 23:32:58 page 19 23:33:05 I think one of the SRFIs has some cycle-safe functions for that sort of thing 23:33:33 now why did I decide to base my Scheme impl. off R7RS-small... probably because there are so many R5RS impl.s in Haskell already 23:33:37 .oO( How do people pronounce SRFI? I've been using "sur-fee" ) 23:33:51 and because R7RS has a number of things that I thought were lacking in R5RS anyways 23:34:06 everything is lacking in r5rs 23:36:46 and then R6RS is too much for many things; R7RS-small seemed small enough but with some rather important things not in R5RS 23:37:09 R6RS is like the second and third Matrix films.. it doesn't exist. 23:37:57 no productive discussion ever comes out about the r6rs, because 99% of the people who hate it have never read it 23:38:10 have ever* 23:38:50 good thing programmers only focus on the technical issues 23:39:08 have never, right the first time 23:39:28 when you're doing your own impl. of Scheme, you typically don't think of implementing R6RS; most people implement R5RS, but I liked things like modules, a clear distinction between strings and bytevectors, explicit exception support, records, etc. 23:39:33 of course, no-one reads the r5rs in spite of it being "a 50 page jewel" 23:39:48 which is why I just had to read it 23:40:10 tabemann: so you like all the things the r6rs added 23:40:12 great 23:40:16 I've read it loooads of times... I keep it on my laptop 23:40:18 but it's too big 23:40:44 that's what happens when you fill in all the spaces where the r5rs says "is unspecified" 23:41:51 whatever 23:42:06 the problem with R5RS is that it is too small of a jewel, even for things like scripting, which is ultimately what I'm probably going to use my Scheme impl. for 23:42:20 it's not even a jewel 23:42:27 you end up having to add on SRFIs, and then which ones then? 23:42:29 jewels arent' full of holes 23:43:04 i.e. R5RS leaves far too much unspecified 23:43:37 even R7RS-small leaves a lot unspecified 23:44:04 and don't get me started on r7rs-large 23:44:18 r7rs-deathstar 23:44:27 e.g. using "is an error" to mean "can do anything here", rather than giving explicit conditions in which exceptions are raised 23:44:38 I've not looked at R7RS-large 23:44:44 (or worse; r7rs-yomamma) 23:45:03 somehow I suspect R7RS-large, though, will go the way of R6RS 23:45:12 all the people who want a "big" Scheme will be using Racket anyways 23:45:29 "here is a bunch of libraries, which you are not required to support, and which contains many procedures of questionable utility" 23:45:45 great, just what we need 23:47:31 -!- ijp [~user@host81-155-27-12.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 23:47:58 Heh.. touchy subject? 23:48:17 the problem, though, with "small" Schemes is that they generally all implement their own libraries outside of R5RS (or R7RS-small), none of which are compatible; R6RS and R7RS-large are obviously (failed) efforts to try to unify Scheme impls w.r.t. their libraries and not just their core languages 23:48:38 but when you're implementing your own Scheme you don't necessarily *want* to have to implement that big library 23:49:04 so what is the solution then, if R5RS is far too small and unspecified and R6RS is too large? 23:49:21 ijp:  oh, he left 23:50:15 *tabemann* for one is implementing a multithreading library, primarily because he wants to be able to plug his Scheme into multithreaded Haskell code (rather than limiting the Scheme runtime to a single Haskell thread) 23:50:25 in any case, that's not an entirely accurate description of the goals of R7RS 23:51:47 R7RS-small seems like an effort to convince those hanging onto R5RS that they *can* adopt something a little more up-to-date and complete 23:51:54 afaict, most of the optional libraries will either be implementable in terms of the Small language (or in terms of modules which are themselves &c.) or else fairly simple OS/system call wrappers 23:52:15 Yah 23:53:56 iemejia [~ismael@apache2-noxim.yoda.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 23:54:16 dpk: well that's good at least, if R7RS-large is just a R7RS-small plus libraries (written in R7RS-small or using some sort of FFI) 23:55:01 It's the sort of split I'd like to see C do one day.. A good ~70% of the C11 spec just defines library functions, all of which can be implemented in the basic language plus some system-specific syscall binding 23:55:23 It'd be nice to have a "core C language/syntax" vs. "standard C library" split, in a similar way 23:55:24 yeah. there also might be a few new bits of reader syntax (i'm thinking of writing a SRFI for large that adds #u8"" for bytevectors, being somewhat like Python's b"") 23:55:37 Small bits here and there, but nothing major 23:55:51 note though that a C FFI is off the table for standardization, iirc 23:55:53 *dpk* checks that 23:56:09 Sure.. that sort of thing is generally impossible anyway ;) 23:56:17 *tabemann* couldn't have a C FFI anyways, as his underlying layer isn't C but Haskell 23:56:25 I have a *Haskell* FFI 23:56:35 tabemann: exactly, that's a large part of the reason it's not being standardized 23:56:43 Should just specify that "some sort" of underlying system access thing shoudl be provided in a natural convenient way, and leave it to impls as to what and how 23:56:53 I have a Perl one ;) 23:57:33 ah, http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ReassignedDocket suggests that the C FFI will be for the future hypothetical R7RS WG3 or R8RS committee to work on 23:57:54 Hrm... has anyone got a good "r7rs-small for people who know r5" ? I.e. something that points out the new/changed bits? 23:58:29 C FFI ought to be optional even then, though, so you can be RnRS-large just by implementing the libraries and using your implementation language's native OS interface, without having to directly expose your code to C (which may be impossible) 23:58:34 LeoNerd: one of the appendices to R5RS 23:58:51 tabemann: yeah, C FFI would *never ever ever* become mandatory 23:58:54 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:15 LeoNerd: err, to R7RS sorry 23:59:28 (would be rather impressive if they'd forseen what the differences would be) 23:59:47 :) 23:59:53 LeoNerd: the main new things are the ones I listed liking earlier - modules, exceptions, bytevectors, records, etc., and some occasional things I don't like, such as being forced to implement a cycle-detecting-and-resolving equal?