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04:01:51 *tabemann* is not looking forward to implementing equal?, even though he's been pointed at at least would be a significantly more time-efficient way of implementing it than what he thought of before
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08:12:02 <rudybot> la la la
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08:17:00 *rudybot* bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot
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14:15:27 <amgarching> I am not good at macros what is the reference implementation of define-syntax-rule?
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14:18:59 <taylanub> (define-syntax define-syntax-rule (syntax-rules () ((define-syntax-rule (keyword . pattern) template) (define-syntax keyword (syntax-rules () ((keyword . pattern) template))))))
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14:22:44 <ijp> e,
14:26:12 <taylanub> Alternatively, (define-syntax-rule (define-syntax-rule (keyword . pattern) template) (define-syntax keyword (syntax-rules () ((keyword . pattern) template))))
14:26:24 *taylanub* snickers
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14:55:15 <theseb> why does scheme allow multiple expressions in body of a lambda sexp? e.g. (lambda (x) a b c (d 2))?
14:55:35 <theseb> 1. It is ugly and 2. It is (i think) unnecessary
14:55:43 <theseb> ...since you can just wrap those sexps in a begin!
14:55:48 <theseb> yes?
14:59:57 <ijp> 1. is subjective 2. is literally true
15:00:30 <ijp> just like (define (foo bar) ...) is unnecessary, and let* is unnecessary, and so on
15:01:29 <LeoNerd> Probably from the observation that the vast majority of lambdas contained multiple expressions...
15:01:45 <LeoNerd> E.g. inner defines and whatnot, so probably easier to say that a lambda has an implicit begin
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15:03:20 <theseb> LeoNerd: implicit begin...hmm makes sense...thanks
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15:06:00 <taylanub> theseb: `let' is also unnecessary, because you can just ((lambda (x y z) ...) a b c) instead of (let ((x a) (y b) (z c)) ...)
15:06:37 <LeoNerd> Which is why let is usually implemented as a library macro form on that exact conversion
15:06:42 <theseb> i have no problem with syntactic sugar... i just wanted to confirm that is what it was
15:07:02 <arrdem> taylanub: yes... if you want to chase any sane programmer away :D
15:08:10 <taylanub> `begin' is unnecessary too of course, since (begin x y) is just ((lambda (_) y) x)
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15:08:21 <taylanub> Meh, old jokes. :P
15:09:32 <ijp> taylanub: except at the top level
15:09:52 <taylanub> "That's the *other* begin, we don't talk about that!"
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15:13:33 <DerGuteMoritz> taylanub: that's not quite true, define inside lambda has different semantics than inside begin
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15:14:41 <taylanub> Wait, I'm confused now.  ijp: Did you mean "in definition context" instead of top level ?
15:15:30 <taylanub> DerGuteMoritz: That's related to "the other begin" I think.
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15:15:52 <DerGuteMoritz> not sure, is there a begin which establishes an inner define scope?
15:16:48 <taylanub> There's begin that consists only of definitions and is spliced into the scope in which it occurs, and there's begin that consists of optional definitions and one or more expressions, and has its own scope.
15:17:10 <ijp> DerGuteMoritz: begin is never (let () ...)
15:17:11 <taylanub> (Thirdly, R7RS's library syntax has a begin, but that's less related.)
15:17:57 <taylanub> ijp: Sure that it isn't so when it includes expressions ?
15:18:17 <DerGuteMoritz> taylanub: what? where's that second begin you speak of defined? R6RS?
15:18:29 <DerGuteMoritz> ijp: right, that's what I mean
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15:22:15 <wwilly> hi
15:22:43 <taylanub> Ah, apparently ijp was thinking of R5RS's top-level begin (which I didn't know of) and I was thinking of the R7RS-small begin (which I thought is older).
15:23:21 <wwilly> i try to use scheme for first time today with scm
15:23:39 <taylanub> DerGuteMoritz: R5RS mentions an alternative semantics for `begin' at the last paragraph of "5.1 Programs", R7RS mentions two `begin' syntaxes under "4.2.3 Sequencing".
15:24:20 *taylanub* should get eir R6RS knowledge straight, usually disregards it because it's so different.
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15:24:44 <wwilly> i woold like to know if we can do a local definition of function, like factorial for hide accumulator in a tail-recursive definition
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15:26:12 <DerGuteMoritz> taylanub: yeah I was aware of multiple begins in R7 but not of the one in R5. thanks
15:26:17 <wwilly> i use ocaml times to times, and we can declare a local function with let f x ... = let floc y ... = ... in floc x ...
15:27:43 <taylanub> DerGuteMoritz: R6RS seems essentially equivalent to R7RS-small, just with different wording.  And BTW I was wrong in that I thought one begin only takes definitions and the other a mix of definitions and expressions; it's the other way around; one takes a mix of definitions and expressions, this one is sliced, and the other takes only expressions, and can be in any position where only an expression is allowed.
15:28:04 <taylanub> spliced*
15:28:11 <DerGuteMoritz> taylanub: ah right, so it never creates a scope
15:28:18 <DerGuteMoritz> at least in R5
15:28:50 <taylanub> Yes, and neither in R7.
15:29:23 <taylanub> wwilly: (letrec ((my-procedure (lambda () ... (my-procedure)))) (use-my-procedure))
15:30:51 <taylanub> `letrec' means "let, recuresive", meaning that the variables are defined first (but left empty), then their corresponding value expression evaluated and put into the variable, so that expression can refer to the variable as long as it doesn't immediately dereference it (and instead e.g. in a lambda).
15:32:09 <LeoNerd> The 'rec' part is more that it suggests you'd probably use it for mutually-recursive lambdas. (lambdata? ;) )
15:33:19 <wwilly> ok
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15:56:33 <wwilly> i write this: http://pastebin.com/N5A0cY2r
15:56:52 <wwilly> did we have a more elegant to write this tail recursive?
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16:10:24 <pnkfelix> wwilly: you could use the `(let loop <bindings> <expr> )` form instead of letrec.  https://gist.github.com/pnkfelix/6296520
16:11:52 <pnkfelix> wwilly: but that's basically the same as what you wrote; just making use of a special case of the `let` special form to avoid having to explicitly name fact-iter.
16:12:41 <pnkfelix> [or rather, its still naming an object analogous to your fact-iter; its avoiding some of the parens and one (lambda )]
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16:13:17 <wwilly> ok
16:16:41 <civodul> question about the history of Scheme: why the word "procedure" instead of "function"?
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16:21:07 <Daemmerung> `function' has a specific meaning in mathematics that Scheme procedures don't necessarily follow
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16:25:24 <civodul> sure, but was it the reasoning for that choice back then?
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17:14:18 <Daemmerung> civodul: precise nomenclature has been a feature of Scheme since the first Revised Report and "The Art of the Interpreter" in 1978.  Sussman and Steele used the MacLISP "function" terminology in 1975.
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17:15:37 <taylanub> It's also noteworthy that the lambda calculus doesn't use the term `function' anywhere.
17:18:09 <ijp> no points for the first counterexample from barendregt
17:18:40 <asumu> taylanub: Church talks about "function" in his originating paper on lambda calculus
17:18:50 <asumu> http://profs.info.uaic.ro/~fltiplea/CDC/Chur1932.pdf
17:19:53 <taylanub> Hrm, calling lambda abstractions "functions", or just explaining the analogy ?  Looking into it ..
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17:21:11 <Daemmerung> "Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation," per McCarthy
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17:24:18 <taylanub> Well Church's text is too heavy for me, and the text isn't digitalized so I can't search through it...
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17:26:09 <asumu> "If M is any formula containing the variable x, then lambda x [M] is a symbol for the function whose values are those given by the formula"
17:28:32 <taylanub> Ah, thanks
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19:03:16 <lethjakman> hey, I thought I saw a music library for scheme called...octave or something like that, but I haven't been able to find it through googling
19:03:20 <lethjakman> anyone know what I'm talking about?
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19:13:48 <davexunit> lethjakman: there's GNU Octave, but that is math software. perhaps you mean GNU Lilypond?
19:14:08 <davexunit> Lilypond is extensible via GNU Guile.
19:14:20 <turbofail> there's a clojure library called overtone.  and a scheme thing called impromptu, and its successor ex tempore
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19:38:47 <lethjakman> davexunit: hrm, doesn't seem like it's lillypond.
19:39:13 <lethjakman> turbofail: that overtone might be it...I saw a video if it and it looks somewhat similar, I wonder if it has changed a lot since then.
19:39:18 <lethjakman> these are cool, thanks guys!
19:41:25 <lethjakman> ahh yes! it's overtone! this is what I saw: http://vimeo.com/22798433
19:42:29 <lethjakman> is clojure that different from lisp?
19:42:55 <vraid> clojure is lisp too
19:42:57 <mario-goulart> It's a lisp.
19:43:59 <lethjakman> ahh alright
19:44:03 <mario-goulart> lethjakman: these days lisp is considered a family of languages, being Common Lisp, Scheme and Clojure some dialects.
19:44:40 <lethjakman> mario-goulart: ahh that would explain it
19:44:41 <lethjakman> thank you
19:45:52 <mario-goulart> You're welcome
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19:50:53 <levi> taylanub: So, the way Church introduces his 'formalism for logic' in that paper, he is very careful to separate the *formal system* from his *intended meaning*. The formalism itself consists of 'undefined terms' of several forms and combinations of them described in terms of 'formulas' and 'symbols'.
19:51:23 <levi> Once he starts talking about his *interpretation* of the formal system, he immediately introduces the idea of a function.
19:54:34 <levi> So, he explicitly meant to represent functions of independant variables via lambda expressions, but he was also explicit about that meaning not being inherent to the formal system itself, which is just a set of symbols and rules for manipulating them.
19:57:31 <taylanub> I think I understand, thanks.
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20:04:46 <levi> Formalisms are funny things that way. Thinking too much about them tends to lead towards abstract metaphysical thinking about things like the meaning of truth, or the meaning of *meaning*. :P
20:06:17 <levi> Reality seems to be a really fundamentally *strange* thing, when you look at it too closely in particular ways.
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