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10:22:41 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 10:23:05 for all the major scheme impls you know: can the return value of (read), (read-byte), (read-char) etc. be customized to be for instance #f instead of the ordinary #!eof ? 10:24:02 I don't think so 10:24:19 you could always write your own function MY-READ which does that though 10:24:37 ok 10:25:07 using #f as eof marker has the benefit that you get better performance on fine-granularity IO operations, such as protocol parsing - HTTP etc. 10:25:31 you don't need to wrap #!eof to #f by (eq? r #!eof) all the time , which makes the code more concise and increases performance 10:26:11 are you sure that is your performance bottleneck, and not something else? 10:26:36 also, returning #f from READ if you read end-of-file is a really bad idea, how do you then read an actual #f? 10:26:46 if (read-byte) reduces to an if and a byte-vector access, then this (eq? b #!eof) represents ~15% of the work done 10:27:37 ecraven: yes, #f is not general, #!eof is general. however for lots of IO applications that work with bytes or chars, #f is more general as the boolean primitives work with it directly 10:27:41 BW^-: have you looked at some implementations? usually READ-BYTE does some dispatch due to different port types, it's often not as trivial as it looks 10:27:44 therefore the use of having a customizable eof object, per port. 10:27:55 if you work with bytes or characters, you shouldn't use READ at all :) 10:28:35 BW^-: I have never seen this customisability in any Scheme, but it might be there 10:30:07 -!- stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:31:06 ecraven: i must admit i didn't look around. i'm currently suggesting it for inclusion into Gambit, and will submit a patch for it. 10:31:39 basically, for per-byte/char protocol parsing where performance is everything, it is relevant to set a port's eof object to #f 10:32:08 BW^-: that might be a useful idea for procedures that read integers, but not for READ itself, imho 10:32:12 it probably helps code conciseness more than it helps performance 10:32:23 ecraven: ineed, for READ itself no. 10:32:46 In every Scheme that I know, there is no difference between testing against #f and testing against (eof-object). They're both constants. This isn't C. 10:33:20 (let read-another-char () 10:33:20 (let ((c (read-char)) 10:33:21 (and c ; Propagate EOF upwards 10:33:21 [handle] 10:34:08 daemmerung: except for that Scheme has a whole generous set of primitives for #f vs. not-#f testing that's enormously concise, 10:34:11 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:34:20 Daemmerung: ah, I never thought of that, does any Scheme represent #f as something that actually evaluates to false in the underlying C/assembly representation? 10:34:23 Don't conflat concision with performance. 10:34:27 er, conflate 10:34:29 stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has joined #scheme 10:34:33 while, testing for #!eof vs not-#!eof requires wrapping to boolean, which doesn't scale well because overlapping the IO primitives always leads to pain 10:34:38 so i thought it makes sense. 10:34:46 well. #!eof as default makes more sense in all cases. 10:35:06 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #scheme 10:35:17 daemmerung: indeed performance is no the primary argument, sorry for mentioning it first. it's a clear second. 10:35:18 anyhow. 10:35:57 i just wanted to air this idea here. it's pretty specific and wouldn't deserve mentioning in anything more central than an SRFI or something. 10:37:08 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:39:11 Gambit has the ability to specify an IO exception handling on per-port basis now since some months. 10:39:40 The return value of the IO exception handler procedure, is passed as return value to the Scheme IO primitive in which the exception occurred. 10:41:09 in the same code as where i'd set EOF to #f, I make IO exceptions cause the IO primitive to return #f. (and optionally save the actual exception into some structure) 10:44:02 -!- Ripp__ [~Ripp___@99-38-251-93.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:55:25 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:39 ecraven: in any implementation, there's a lot of competition for what type (if any) gets 0x00000000 as an immediate value. I can't think of an impl that chooses #f, but it's certainly one choice. Don't have my books at hand here.... 10:58:01 In Gambit, 0x00000000 is zero. 10:59:33 -!- ASau [~user@p5797FF33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:02:56 ASau [~user@p5797FF33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:05:41 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 11:06:27 Daemmerung: i'd guess most implementations that use tagged integers, if they use low-bit tagging, use 0 (so #x00000000 would be 0). even if they use high-bit tagging, they probably use 0b00.. and 0b11.. as positive/negative fixnum tags, so again #x00000000 is 0. 11:08:02 sure simplifies fixnum arithmetic that way 11:08:09 -!- Daemmerung [~goetter@c-24-18-219-60.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Smoove out.] 11:08:17 sbaugh [~sbaugh@unaffiliated/sbaugh] has joined #scheme 11:17:22 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:23:48 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 11:26:08 davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 11:42:41 ASau` [~user@p5797FB72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:45:49 -!- ASau [~user@p5797FF33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:53:13 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 12:00:24 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:01:21 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:07:17 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:44 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:13:56 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:17:46 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:32:16 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:32:20 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:32:20 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 12:34:40 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:36:47 pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has joined #scheme 12:37:58 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [] 12:43:56 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 12:45:43 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 12:47:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:29 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:42:33 -!- lumiukko [~lumiukko@88-148-181-89.bb.dnainternet.fi] has left #scheme 18:49:52 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:59 how can I remove the car of a list 18:50:02 ? 18:50:35 with cdr? 18:51:02 Depends, if you want to mutate it or not. 18:52:04 ddp [~ddp@rrcs-173-197-107-9.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:52:11 -!- ddp [~ddp@rrcs-173-197-107-9.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:43 nmeum: ^ 18:56:20 vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:56:26 nmeum: you should consider the difference between an object, and a variable bound to this object. 19:00:36 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 19:05:00 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:12:30 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:10 miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has joined #scheme 19:24:58 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:28:10 rudybot: (define l (list 1 2 3)) 19:28:12 offby1: your sandbox is ready 19:28:12 offby1: Done. 19:28:20 rudybot: (cdr l) 19:28:20 offby1: ; Value: '(2 3) 19:28:23 rudybot: l 19:28:23 offby1: ; Value: '(1 2 3) 19:30:28 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:46:18 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 19:46:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:53:18 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 19:55:54 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:22 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:20 alexei 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[~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:55 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:33 ijp [~user@host86-185-214-85.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:40:52 6JTAAF3TX [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 20:55:14 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:46 add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:13:02 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:27:52 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:36 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:49:26 -!- 6JTAAF3TX [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:50:32 duggiefresh [~duggie@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:56 -!- duggiefresh is now known as Guest4356 21:51:08 -!- Guest4356 [~duggie@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:09:09 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:07 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-45-120.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:23:33 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:04 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 22:29:58 -!- amz3 [~amirouche@unaffiliated/amirouche] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:12 -!- miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:41:41 why did I decide to actually implement eqv? for closures... except that for closures that are not primitives or continuations it is implementable in my runtime model... whereas it is completely not implementable for primitives, and with continuations it is rather apt to get into infinite loops 22:45:25 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.6.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:12 dsevilla [~user@77.211.88.136] has joined #scheme 22:53:30 malicious [~weechat@pool-108-9-106-234.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:54:43 at best you can get it to return `#t' in some of the cases the procedures are behaviourally/observationally equivalent, and `#f' in all the cases the procedures are observationally distinct 22:55:41 hence, `#t' could mean that they are definitely equal, and `#f' that they may be distinct 22:55:48 what i'm doing is actually going into the bytecodish representations of the closures and making sure that they are identical, and making sure that the inherited environments are also identical 22:56:31 yes 22:56:47 that for IOArrays (==) checks identity is actually a plus here, as it makes the scope checks very fast 22:56:53 but they may behave the same even if the closure representation differs 22:57:15 (and in that case, they arguably represents the same procedure value) 22:57:18 (eqv? (lambda (x) (* x 2)) (lambda (x) (+ x x))) 22:57:43 tis true 23:01:05 Well for floating points, they may give different results, I'd think. 23:01:48 Or for some types of x and redefinitions of * or +. 23:03:53 hmm I'm thinking again about whether it *is* possible to form an infinite loop with eqv? and a continuation 23:04:23 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:29 at best you can get an approximate, conservative, equality 23:04:31 cf. Bloom filters, in which you may get false positives in membership tests in a set 23:04:56 for eqv? it seems that false negatives are preferable 23:05:08 yes, it'd be the other way around in this case 23:06:25 oh I remembered also why I wasn't going to implement eqv? for continuations aside from giving #f - on return stacks there would almost certainly be primitives, and I can't compare primitives 23:07:36 (unless I made primitives generate unique numbers each time they were being generated, but that would involve lock contention if I were to try to do it in a thread-safe fashion on a multithreaded environment) 23:07:56 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:08:05 Or include the thread ID in their generation ID 23:09:08 oooh ThreadId does have an Eq instance 23:10:10 hmm 23:10:58 maybe I could encode my primitive counter in my SchemeT monad transformer, and put that along with ThreadId in my primitives 23:35:19 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 23:38:39 pumpkin360 [~main@arc120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 23:41:11 Hi. Which scheme interpreter/compiler provides things needed to create a dynamic web page, but withouth the high level tools for doing it? would like to learn how the internals work 23:43:57 um, what do you mean by high level tools? like sxml->xhtml converters, web frameworks, web servers, etc? 23:44:21 are you going to create that page using cgi and some web server, or only in scheme? 23:45:18 any implementation with tcp library is suitable for that anyway, i think. and if you're going to use cgi, then you don't even need tcp 23:45:20 defanor_: would like to do it only with scheme 23:46:01 does chibi have tcp library ? 23:46:26 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:46:36 probably not. 23:46:42 idk. chicken and guile has, racket has 23:47:13 mit/gnu scheme has 23:47:24 defanor_: Ok, thanks. I will probably go with guile or sth 23:47:33 yw 23:48:16 mit-scheme has? wouldn't suspect it, thought it was just an educational implementation for (the beloved) SICP 23:48:45 -!- malicious [~weechat@pool-108-9-106-234.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 23:49:03 good night. 23:49:05 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@arc120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 23:50:27 i'm not using mit/gnu scheme much, but there was something 23:50:39 http://web.mit.edu/scheme_v9.0.1/doc/mit-scheme-ref/TCP-Sockets.html 23:54:50 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6218E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:54:56 defanor_: he's gone 23:56:48 yep, noticed it too late 23:58:10 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving]