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has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:52:48 procedural and data abstractions! 04:52:51 oh yeah!!!! 04:52:53 :) 04:53:01 so stalin can compile faser code than c? 04:53:02 WOA 04:53:22 yeah, stalin is a very interesting compiler 04:54:33 although there is an argument that says that the larger the project gets a language that is higher level will be able to compile to faster code. since more information about the code is available at runtime than you can encode with a lower level language 04:54:39 haskell is a brilliant example of this 04:54:42 Hi Gavino. 04:55:01 chaotic_good: ^ 04:55:30 oops 04:55:36 s/runtime/compile time/ 04:56:46 as in some optimizations you get for free by simply using a higher level language. otherwise you would have to code in these optimizations explicitly in a lower level lang 04:57:55 but then again, we are using very very suboptimal architectures... the burroughs large system is a prime example of how bad x86 is.. 04:58:09 GlenK [~GlenK@vpn.lax-noc.com] has joined #scheme 04:58:12 so in the end, its all compiling down to a horrible arch.. 04:58:14 04:59:22 so I'm on 2.73 of sicp. things are working...things are great in that I can keep adding different functionality to my derivative function, all independant of each other. 05:00:17 good to hear! :) 05:00:18 -!- duggiefresh [~duggie@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:00:19 the problem I'm having, by making things like the derivative of a sum independent from the product or whatever, I seem to have to repeat code in each independant thing. 05:00:53 break it out into a function? 05:01:01 let me pull up sicp.. 05:03:20 well, here's the code I'm talking about: https://github.com/GlenKaukola/sicp/blob/master/section2.4/2_73.scm 05:03:30 chaos_ [~chaos@112.65.188.145] has joined #scheme 05:06:28 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@112.65.190.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:06:59 GlenK: hmm.. well im not sure where the code repetition is that you are talking about 05:07:42 GlenK: oh, im guessing it is make-product? 05:08:00 yeah, just rip that out into a function and call it 05:08:04 pretty simple stuff 05:08:25 hey Riastradh 05:08:33 whats new? 05:16:56 Riastradh: what are you working on? 05:17:07 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has left #scheme 05:19:08 -!- chaos_ is now known as Chaos`Eternal 05:20:02 CADD: sure. but that wouldn't keep my junk independant of each other, which is kinda the point of the exercise 05:20:13 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 05:21:57 seems I have trouble spelling independent. awesome. 05:22:28 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:24:11 GlenK: im not sure what you mean by that 05:24:22 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:22 CADD: well, the point of the exercise is that some independant guy might be designing the derivative of a sum package. while another guy might be working on products. etc. guess I'll just move on like I usually do though. no sense overthinking the stuff. the real exciting stuff seems to be coming up 05:27:11 GlenK: yeah, that sounds like an architectural problem instead of a learning exercise. have fun! 05:27:16 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 05:29:43 none shall dare oppose the empire!! I feel guilty I have not 1 learned to type fast 2 read sicp esp since riastradh reccomended both so long ago, I guess I have failed 05:29:50 :( 05:29:58 anyone here run a website on scheme? 05:30:06 artanis is interesting and awful 05:30:08 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 05:30:09 and racket web server 05:30:39 chaotic_good: i personally dont. but i played around with the racket web server and found it quite nice 05:31:01 chaotic_good: im a haskeller, so i usually do most of my work in that 05:31:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:26 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:31 happstack? 05:33:33 wow 05:33:35 a haskeller!!! 05:33:37 awesome 05:33:55 big fan of herkoku myself. a rails thing for easily deploying your junk 05:33:59 gah 05:34:02 heroku 05:35:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-151.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:37:08 rails!! 05:37:11 bah 05:37:37 ruby python seem like trick to get you to use java n covert to oracle crap when u got bough tor fianced 05:37:39 weak 05:37:41 oracel must die 05:39:36 chaotic_good: oh yeah. i <3 happstack 05:39:55 haroldwu [~user@223-140-139-197.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 05:40:09 blech python.. 05:40:16 ruby is only slighly better 05:40:24 (from a plt standpoint) 05:40:35 community, libs, yadda yadda.. i know 05:45:22 some parts of python are a little bit better than ruby. for example it's slightly less awkward to pass around and call functions 05:45:41 though python's lambdas are crippled and silly 05:47:41 on the other hand, when you do def foo(n) def bar(m) ... in ruby, the inner definition doesn't get access to its parent's scope, which is some seriously WTF behavior 05:48:17 python at least gets that right 05:48:22 sort of 05:48:23 yup. both langs are pretty crippled... they need sexprs.. and then they would just be shitty lisps. 05:59:31 https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbmwcsCyO21rzupqxo1_500.png 05:59:37 http://tinyurl.com/n3cjckf 06:03:39 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #scheme 06:08:32 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:09 -!- microcode [~microcode@unaffiliated/microcolonel] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:15:42 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 06:16:59 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.101.12] has joined #scheme 06:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE640DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 06:23:19 microcode [~microcode@64.228.198.93] has joined #scheme 06:23:53 vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.228.9] has joined #scheme 06:31:51 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:28 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:33:56 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 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connection] 09:05:12 ASau` [~user@p4FF97D9A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:10:05 Klaufir [~admin@109.232.224.97] has joined #scheme 09:16:42 im getting started with scheme 09:16:47 and need some help setting up my env 09:19:36 Klaufir: What particular help do You need ? 09:21:03 i can already compile trivial programs on the command line using chicken scheme 09:21:07 but have been told to use emacs 09:21:44 so, i am trying to find out how to make emacs+chickenscheme work together on win 09:21:55 ah. slim etc. Can't help You there, I'm a vim guy. 09:22:14 It might be hard on win. 09:22:17 Klaufir: you don't need to use emacs 09:22:31 C-Keen: any recommendations? 09:22:40 Klaufir: nonetheless, I use M-x run-scheme in emacs with csi 09:23:29 Klaufir: anything works just fine, have you seen http://wiki.call-cc.org/editors ? 09:23:33 any editor that can show you matching ( and ) is good 09:24:13 isnt is common practice to send snippets to the repl from the editor? 09:24:17 Klaufir: what do you usually use as an editor? 09:24:38 Klaufir: yes, it's convenient but neither mandatory nor essential 09:24:53 C-Keen: well, notepad++. i know (don't hit me :-) 09:25:01 but i am looking for alternatives 09:25:10 Klaufir: Vim ! 09:25:47 Klaufir, focus on two problem, one unimportant imo, is not a good thing, so use whatever editor you like and focus on scheme 09:26:00 Klaufir: gvim on windows is also neat, emacs works, any other editor works. as rszeno said showing you matching parenthesis is important as it saves you hassles and counting parenthesis at the beginning 09:26:20 Klaufir: I personally use emacs and paredit-mode to take care of that but it's my personal preference 09:31:43 C-Keen: how do I load an .el file? 09:36:23 M-x load ... ? 09:36:54 or you want to edit the file? 09:37:04 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD560AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:37:19 rszeno: thanks, load it is. this is my first time with emacs 09:37:38 there is a difference between 'load' and 'visit' 09:40:13 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.228.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:42:08 boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f71befd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 09:49:07 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 09:49:15 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@duu207.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:50:38 load means run the code in it 09:51:28 otoh, M-x load doesn't exist on *my* emacs 09:51:34 oh 09:51:35 it does 09:52:50 vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.244.247] has joined #scheme 09:54:09 YoungFrog, ..., want to be mean '-file' or '-library' 09:55:02 haroldwu [~user@114-137-41-135.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:16 I was being confused by the (non interactive) load function. 09:56:00 (I'm also now confused by the fact that this is not #emacs.) 09:56:37 you mean here or on freenode? 09:59:48 i'm cofused by confusions, :) 10:00:25 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@140.206.89.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:02:36 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE640DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:04:58 (setq scheme-program-name "csi -:c") 10:05:22 this is in my .emacs file 10:05:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE640DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:36 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE640DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:05:52 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 10:05:57 i know this sets 'scheme-program-name' 10:06:07 but how do i invoke it from emacs? 10:06:21 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #scheme 10:07:40 -!- haroldwu [~user@114-137-41-135.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:08:10 hit the keys "C-h v" (control-h followed by v) on the word "scheme-program-name" ; you then get its documentation 10:08:15 it says: Program invoked by the `run-scheme' command. 10:08:36 M-x set-variable 10:08:38 so you'd have to M-x run-scheme 10:08:53 ah maybe I didn't understand the question 10:09:41 usualy setq in .emacs doesn't do what you want 10:09:52 rszeno: why? 10:09:56 what does it do? 10:11:47 bind a value to a variable as usual but tons of things are loaded after .emacs, including the major and minor mode so probably will overwrite what doesn't expect to be there 10:12:08 rszeno: thanks for the warning 10:12:30 run-scheme load chicken scheme interpreter into the main window 10:12:43 so, it does seem to work :) 10:14:46 http://community.schemewiki.org/?emacs-tutorial 10:14:53 this one is really useful 10:15:20 -!- chaotic_good [~g@cpe-76-95-62-203.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:23 you have in emacs all you need, :) 10:15:48 C-h i, C-h a, C-h v, C-h b, C-h m 10:16:20 and few others, this are only for info, apropos, variables, binding keys and mode 10:18:03 it all works now :) 10:18:05 and maybe C-h t, :) 10:18:08 separate window, repl 10:18:29 that's fine 10:20:27 -!- ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:20:28 rszeno, YoungFrog, C-Keen: thanks for the help 10:20:41 you are welcome 10:22:05 rszeno: nowadays, packages should behave correctly wrt to variables that are already set in .emacs (variables are declared with "defvar" which doesn't overwrite the value if there is one) 10:24:22 yes, true, it start to annoy me in last years 10:25:01 Klaufir: C-x C-f is find-file, for opening files in emacs 10:25:27 I strongly suggest you do the tutorial (C-h t) to get to know emacs basics 10:26:05 personally, I find emacs *very* convenient for scheme programming, and couldn't imagine doing without it, especially if you have something like SLIME that does auto-completion, procedure arity documentation and so on 10:37:30 vraid [~vraid@h217-27-188-90.cust.tyfon.se] has joined #scheme 10:38:16 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:25 pumpkin360 [~main@duu207.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 10:52:37 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 13:09:09 -!- frkout [~frkout@101.110.31.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:23 defanor [~d@ppp91-77-130-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:12:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:21 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:15:56 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 13:16:05 ecraven: thanks, i have dug through the tutorial 13:17:38 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:17:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:24:06 anyone using cluck.el with emacs? 13:26:02 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 13:32:01 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:01 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:01 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:32:26 how do I disable paredit mode after enabling it? 13:32:45 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:56 M-x paredit mode RET 13:33:08 Why would you disable it though ? 13:33:38 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:48 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:36:20 taylanub: when I enable something I always want to know how to disable it :) 13:36:23 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 13:36:29 paredit is awesome btw 13:36:57 It is. :) Modes are generally toggled on and off with the same command in Emacs. 13:37:42 How can I enable paredit mode from .emacs? 13:37:58 its kinds tiresome to M-x enable-paredit-mode after every start 13:38:27 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:42 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-54-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:38:55 I think at the top of the paredit.el file are some instructions 13:39:05 (dolist (hook '(scheme-mode-hook lisp-mode-hook ielm-mode-hook ...)) (add-hook hook 'paredit-mode)) or so would be one possibility. 13:39:36 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:40:19 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-54-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:40:38 You can also have it for M-: and such with e.q.: 13:40:38 (add-hook 'minibuffer-setup-hook 'paredit-minibuffer-setup) 13:40:38 (defun paredit-minibuffer-setup () 13:40:38 (when (memq this-command '(eval-expression ibuffer-do-eval)) 13:40:39 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40:41 (paredit-mode))) 13:40:53 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:41:41 (dolist (hook '(scheme-mode-hook)) (add-hook hook 'enable-paredit-mode)) 13:41:45 this one works 13:41:48 taylanub: thanks 13:46:52 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:55 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:55 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:50:38 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 13:50:38 duggiefresh [~dug@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 13:50:50 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 13:52:46 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 13:53:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:45 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:08:09 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:13:25 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:03 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] has joined #scheme 14:24:12 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:03 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 14:31:40 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has joined #scheme 14:34:56 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 14:38:30 snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 14:39:07 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:32 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:46:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:22 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 14:48:09 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.244.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:48:35 gcartier [~gcartier@24.201.136.10] has joined #scheme 14:50:53 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 14:51:06 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 14:53:47 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 14:57:21 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:37 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 15:00:05 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has left #scheme 15:03:27 -!- evhan_ is now known as evhan 15:03:36 -!- evhan [~evhan@foldling.org] has quit [Changing host] 15:03:36 evhan [~evhan@pdpc/supporter/active/evhan] has joined #scheme 15:08:53 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 15:12:05 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:26:34 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 15:27:32 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has joined #scheme 15:31:00 -!- boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f71befd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:19 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:45:26 vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.217.153] has joined #scheme 15:47:55 -!- miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:55:56 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.217.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:06 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 15:59:22 fridim_ [~fridim@173.231.115.58] has joined #scheme 16:05:06 -!- YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 16:10:41 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:14:33 miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has joined #scheme 16:14:38 -!- duggiefresh [~dug@64.119.141.126] has quit [Quit: duggiefresh] 16:15:13 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 16:27:10 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:29:01 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:14 annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:38:14 -!- annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:14 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 16:38:16 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:38:47 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 16:40:23 -!- haroldwu [~user@42-67-63-47.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:43:16 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 16:45:24 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 16:55:32 vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.216.2] has joined #scheme 16:58:58 jcowan [~John@cpe-108-182-78-175.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:58:59 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:59:15 hey hey ho ho 16:59:30 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 16:59:56 hi 17:00:22 Good morning 17:00:58 yes 17:01:08 good morning 17:01:46 is a local variable, here is evening, :) 17:02:09 It's always the morning. The morning is intemporal. 17:02:28 "Always a nice day somewhere, sir." 17:03:36 it is scheme day 17:03:47 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 17:04:27 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@24.201.136.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:06:14 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:45 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:27 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:40 ok, then, good morning everybody, :) 17:13:12 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 17:13:45 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:36 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:17:26 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 17:17:26 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:31 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 17:19:38 -!- Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-76-21-7-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:19:44 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 17:20:57 duggiefresh [~dug@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:29:16 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 17:33:49 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:02 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 17:51:33 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:52:23 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 17:57:41 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD94332.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:58:04 -!- vraid [~vraid@h217-27-188-90.cust.tyfon.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:20 taylanub [tub@p4FD949ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:11:02 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:12:16 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:15:06 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD560AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:15:37 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD560AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:16:41 -!- m4burns [m4burns@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:17:09 m4burns [m4burns@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 18:22:46 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:28:25 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 18:31:40 -!- Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:48 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 18:33:58 Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has joined #scheme 18:43:47 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:45:38 vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:03:48 sstrickl [~sstrickl@129-2-129-155.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #scheme 19:03:49 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@129-2-129-155.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Changing host] 19:03:49 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 19:05:05 add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:12:25 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:46 Guest77236 [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:49 -!- Guest77236 [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:15:49 Guest77236 [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 19:17:12 -!- Guest77236 is now known as jao 19:29:38 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 19:34:01 Okasu [~1@94.25.229.77] has joined #scheme 19:34:03 -!- Okasu [~1@94.25.229.77] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:04 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 19:38:40 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:41:30 gzmask [~user@prodvideo.cat.uregina.ca] has joined #scheme 19:42:41 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:10 hello, I am going from clojure to scheme since I need to do something that has to be done with C as JVM won't do. So C/C++ easy interlop is what I am looking for. Giving that, how is gambit compare to chicken and what else is out there ? 19:46:32 wrt to gambit vs. chicken: chicken is more "user friendly" and has more extensions. Gambit is probably faster than chicken. Gambit also provides the full numeric tower "built in". The full numeric tower is available as an extension for chicken. 19:47:57 gzmask: I've heard good things about the Racket FFI, but I haven't used it myself. 19:48:21 racket is great 19:49:20 gzmask: chicken has some extensions based on clojure features (persistent-hash-maps, channel, clojurian etc) 19:50:24 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@103.26.216.2] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:52:02 wow, thanks folks. I know that Chicken and gambit compiled to C, how readable is the compiled code? 19:52:48 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:08 Not for humans, I'd say. 19:53:59 chicken performs CPS conversion and a lot of optimizations on the scheme code before emiting C. 19:57:05 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:25 thanks, I'll check gambit out I think. 19:59:06 I don't think the code emited by gambit is readable either. 19:59:10 (define in (open-input-string "foobar")) 19:59:15 (regexp-match #rx"z" in) 19:59:20 Oops, wrong channel. 19:59:24 :-) 20:01:16 yea, I am aware of that. for some reason a lighter weight implementation sound attractive to me. I might change court as I tried with high possiblity 20:01:16 20:02:32 What do you mean "lighter weight"? 20:02:51 I'd say gambit is heavier than chicken in many aspects. 20:06:25 why do you need readable C code? in some implementations you could just call Scheme functions from C 20:07:21 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 20:07:47 I am not quit sure. probably just in the fear of some horribly wrong C pointers that I think interoping needs to be as painless as possible 20:08:35 and you want to manualy inspect the code? :) 20:09:58 or at least I can have some sort of C mindset in scheme so that I can reason about the side effects? I am just starting :P 20:11:17 -!- m4burns [m4burns@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:12:55 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:12 but really I am not a big fan of the C linking and flags. that's why I am looking into scheme in the first place 20:15:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:02 maybe this could help, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours 20:19:00 but probably is only a start point. this subject is too complicated, depend on what you want to achive, :) 20:19:51 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 20:21:10 I am not even certain what I am trying to achieve lol. haskell is too restricted, clojure is too JVM, Go is too google and C++11 is too huge, and now I am looking at scheme. I guess this pretty much sum it all 20:23:35 gzmask: You're not ever going to be happy with a language, then. They all make compromises. 20:24:20 I realize that long ago. now I am just looking for coffeescript to js as a scheme to C if that existed. 20:24:49 It can't exist. 20:24:59 Some people would claim that Lua is that. 20:25:08 i doubt, :) 20:25:38 from my narrowed view, scheme looks pretty close? 20:25:41 Coffeescript was designed around roughly the same semantic model as JS. Scheme is nowhere near the same semantic model as C. 20:25:44 but is a personal opinion, :) 20:26:16 well, clojure is totally different from JS yet clojurescript nail it 20:26:51 The semantic models of clojure and javascript are *not* that different. 20:27:04 Nowhere near as different as Scheme and C, anyway. 20:27:31 that makes me think scheme is different from clojure 20:27:43 Why does it make you think that? 20:27:58 They are different, of course, but not as different as Scheme and C. 20:27:59 coz I think JS is pretty rought like C 20:28:10 JS is nothing like C! JS is much closer to Scheme. 20:28:57 The similarity of JS and C is purely syntactic. 20:29:08 pumpkin360 [~main@ayq220.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 20:29:13 well, if you tried code network stuff with JS using its deep callback nest then it's pretty close to C pointer hell 20:29:14 gzmask, http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~boucherd/mslug/meetings/20041020/minutes-en.html 20:29:14 http://tinyurl.com/fj4af 20:29:28 gzmask: When was the last time you wrote a C program? 20:29:35 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-108-182-78-175.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:56 couple months ago I use C++11 on a Ray tracing toy engine 20:30:10 I said C, not C++11. 20:30:35 :) 20:30:52 long enough that I can't remember exactly. But they way I use C++11 is just strictly functions. No OOP crap 20:31:16 then why you use c++ ? 20:31:44 OK. Well, how would you straightforwardly translate a bunch of nested JS callbacks to C functions? 20:31:53 most of the time I have to. some libs only provided in C/C++ 20:33:10 doing callbacks in C is hard, but the feelings of digging up status from callback hell is very similar to finding out values from pointer hell 20:33:15 a c++ compiler work a little different then a c one 20:33:22 hard? 20:33:42 coz C doesn't provided native callback features? 20:34:11 "feelings" about the comparative difficulty of completely different language features have absolutely nothing to do with how easily you can translate from one language to another. 20:36:34 i can't argue with that. but I really like functional languages now. they make things more organized 20:36:35 i've translated some 2.5k-lines program from C to JS recently, using only regexps :) not saying that C is close to JS, but sometimes it's quite simple to translate straightforwardly 20:36:58 From C to JS is a completely different matter than JS to C. 20:37:32 depends on code (those resulting code is easy to translate back), but yep, it is 20:38:32 C does not support anonymous functions. C does not support nested function definitions, and thus no closures. C does not do automatic memory management. Idiomatic Javascript code relies heavily on all of those. 20:38:47 So does idiomatic Scheme! 20:38:49 "The determined Real Programmer can write FORTRAN programs in any language" btw 20:39:06 unless declared integer 20:39:18 We're not talking about writing programs, we're talking about translating programs in a 'straightforward' way. 20:39:21 defanor: fortran.. People still use that? 20:39:28 Zagaba: You bet they do. 20:39:36 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:48 It's still very popular in scientific numeric computing. 20:39:51 Zagaba: i think so, but it was just for quotation here 20:39:51 yes, and cobol, :) 20:40:02 I don't see the point in fortran, it seems like a less powerful C. 20:40:07 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:40:14 Zagaba: That is precisely why it's still used. 20:40:26 Sometimes power is not what you want. 20:40:39 the lesser "power" allows the compiler to optimize array stuff better than in C 20:40:42 (sometimes) 20:40:48 base code and mindset, are usualy a reason to stay with a given syntax 20:40:56 Less powerful and less easy to write. It just like at that point do C. 20:41:29 Zagaba: It's way easier to write than C, at least if you care about it going fast. 20:41:35 fortran isn't any harder than C for numerical stuff 20:41:37 Better optimising compilers for numerical tasks, good libraries, and no undefined behaviour 20:41:57 Hum I should look more into it. 20:42:22 You have a lot of cmputations to do? 20:42:24 You probably shouldn't look into fortran unless you need to do scientific computing tasks on big supercomputers. But if you do, then sure. 20:42:41 I would strike the supercomputer part 20:42:56 Well, mostly to be able to have a good opinion about it. 20:43:23 it really is faster than well written C ? 20:45:20 In some cases. They're probably very close these days, but you have to know how to annotate all your C code so the compiler knows your pointers don't alias. 20:45:45 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 20:48:04 levi: thanks 20:49:00 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:28 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:54 Fortran is funny it looks like the code is screaming at me. It's quite unusual. 20:51:04 Zagaba: Why would you want a 'good' opinion of Fortran? It's just a computer language; it's got utility still in some areas still, but outside of there it's largely obsolete. 20:51:39 levi: well at least something better than from what I've seen from the wikipedia page. 20:51:52 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:05 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:10 My point is not that Fortran is wonderful; it's that C is not. 20:52:47 I know. I just saw C as an improvment over fortran in almost every regard. 20:53:46 It's an improvement over Fortran in its ability to write low-level OS code, but it's still kind of lousy at that. 20:55:21 It is a step back in the sense that it has hidden meanings in code sometimes 20:58:01 pumpkin360: As levi said. Also, AFAIK automatic vectorization / parallelization is much better for Fortran than for C. 20:58:30 stamourv: Data-Parallel Haskell is another good option if you want that 20:58:38 It's a step back in that it doesn't do a very good job at providing what it tries to provide in a consistent way. It's got a *really* thin veneer of typing over an untyped language and syntax that provides a bit of local meaning (i.e. arrays and strings) that doesn't 'travel' well. 20:58:38 especially for nested data parallelism 20:58:47 And modern Fortran is actually not too unpleasant, compared to, say, Fortran 77. 20:59:00 Nisstyre: Maybe, I haven't used it. 20:59:12 stamourv: it does automatic vectorization of nested data parallelism 20:59:23 But it's pretty hard to beat the big Fortran compilers engineering-wise. 20:59:28 it only supports monomorphic types atm though 20:59:44 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 20:59:51 stamourv: not even Fortran can reliably do auto vectorization of nested dp-ism 21:00:14 And TBH, if I were writing scientific code, I would probably personally find it easier to write in Fortran than in Haskell. 21:00:26 Haskell has some nice things, but I find it tends to get in my way. 21:00:32 if you have a flat dp problem then Fortran is the best choice 21:00:39 C was a reasonable language back in the day of big iron machines with high-level assembly languages and straightforward execution pipelines. 21:00:47 Re nested data parallelism: ISTR recent versions of the Cray compilers being able to do that. 21:00:52 Because then it really was fairly close to the machine model. 21:01:31 stamourv: I think functional programming is the future of parallel programming tbh 21:01:38 the compiler tech is not there yet though 21:01:40 Now, both the machine model and the field of programming language design have made a lot of progress, and C is just a really poor fit. 21:01:43 If we are already in the topic, if someone would have to much time - http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html 21:01:56 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:02:15 levi: C is nice. It is the C++ who makes the bad fame :P 21:02:34 Nisstyre: Agreed. But I'd bet that that future is closer to Fortress or SAC than to Haskell. 21:02:51 Laziness gets in the way. 21:03:01 stamourv: perhaps SML or OCaml then 21:03:08 pumpkin360: I disagree about the niceness of C, but I'm not a big fan of C++ either. 21:03:21 Nisstyre: BTW, have you seen the upcoming ICFP13 paper out of Intel on vectorization in Haskell? 21:03:24 never heard of SAC 21:03:31 It's pretty cool. 21:03:32 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:03:40 stamourv: I saw the announcement about their haskell compiler 21:03:44 if that's what you mean 21:03:55 Re SML: SML is dead. I wouldn't bet on it. 21:03:59 Disciple is an interesting Haskell offshoot. 21:04:20 Re Intel: They also have a paper at ICFP, which I skimmed and found interesting. 21:04:27 I'll check it out 21:04:41 Re OCaml: Maybe, it could be a good place to start. 21:04:48 The Intel generalized stream fusion stuff is really cool. 21:05:05 stamourv: Frege is interesting. If it were ported off the JVM it would be a good place to start as well. 21:05:06 But IMO, Fortress, SAC and co have a big head start, mostly because of the data representations they use. 21:05:08 There's a new OCaml book out soon (in beta now), 'Real World OCaml' 21:05:33 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96E42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:05:36 The Fortress project is dead, is it not? 21:06:20 forth? :) 21:06:28 levi: Unclear. 21:06:30 rszeno: not suited to parallelism 21:06:47 levi: I had an algorithmic course in C++, well more C + STL, but from that time I stopped using STL and started writting in C, went through quite a few languages, Python, Scheme, tiny bit of Go and read about many more, and see no nice alternative for C, Scheme was good at the beginning but from time to time we need imperative stuff.. came back to good old C, maybe I must grow up, but I like C. 21:07:32 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:35 depend on forth implementation, forth is as flexible as lisp is 21:07:47 rszeno: well you can extend the Forth language easily 21:08:00 rszeno: Sure, but its underlying execution model is pretty inflexible. 21:08:55 ug 21:09:06 is it allowed to mention C++ and STL in here? 21:09:07 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 21:09:20 theseb: don't see why not 21:09:30 PTSD 21:09:40 theseb: probably not but who will catch me :) 21:09:57 theseb: whenever someone mentions "wordpress" I get triggered 21:10:06 pumpkin360: Well, that's the problem. There isn't a nice alternative to C. That doesn't really make C nice, though. 21:10:24 I just had an uncontrollable urge to bash my head against my desk by just typing it 21:10:29 c- ? :) 21:10:38 I write C code every day. I'm pleased that it allows me to make a living. But I don't think it's a great language. :) 21:11:09 levi: you might like this book http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025108.do 21:11:24 levi, why don't generate it? 21:11:31 levi: I am afraid that I will have to write in some other language to make a living and thus want to have fun with C as long as I can :) 21:12:24 Nisstyre: Isn't K&R the only proper C book :D 21:12:37 pumpkin360: sure, if you want to program C like it's 1972 21:12:51 I like K&R though 21:13:00 but it's not a book for learning to write modern C 21:13:28 Nisstyre: I will never be a good programmer, so I don't care so much, also like it. 21:14:07 Nisstyre: Looks like it could be interesting, but I'm already pretty familiar with a lot of things mentioned in the blurb. 21:14:15 Harbison & Steele FTW. 21:14:25 levi: yeah then it'd be of less use to you 21:15:15 Most of my programming has been in the realm of device drivers and network stacks, too. 21:16:40 levi: I'm kind of interested in doing some of that. I might get myself a RPI or something and futz around with it. 21:18:46 Nisstyre: A fun way of doing low-level stuff without resorting to C would be to install Xen and play with Mirage, an OCaml paravirtualized guest kernel for cloud computing. 21:19:12 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:55 levi: I wanted to do that with QEMU and Android in an attempt to try reverse engineering something 21:20:01 (an app) 21:21:17 http://www.openmirage.org/blog/ 21:21:40 levi: thanks, looks interesting 21:21:53 -!- Zagaba [~user@modemcable048.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #scheme 21:23:00 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-247-93.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:06 Apparently they're hoping to have Mirage/Xen/ARM working on small ARM-powered gadgets soon. 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