00:05:42 I presume, for orthogonality's sake, it's a good idea to have a bytevector-map and a bytevector-for-each, even if they're not specified by RnRS 00:06:42 -!- dessos_ [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:20 dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:39 tabemann: if i understand correctly, that was a response to some else's comment, not mine 00:13:29 it wasn't a response to anyone's comment 00:13:49 oh :) 00:13:54 I'm just implementing R7RS-small, but I figure it might be good to have those, even though R7RS-small doesn't specify them 00:14:06 just to be analogous to, say, string-map and string-for-each 00:14:08 sounds useful to me. 00:14:14 yes. 00:14:16 (as why have those two and not their bytevector counterparts?) 00:14:52 I also already implemented bytevector->list and list->bytevector even though those are part of R7RS-small 00:18:08 well, you could do a really quick-and-dirty implementation of bytevector-map with thise 00:18:13 er, slow-and-dirty 00:19:09 nah, I'm going to be implementing it as a VM primitive 00:19:19 as with all the other map and for-each functions 00:19:26 yeah i was kidding. 00:21:21 (just implementing *anything* with this implementation itself is going to be slow, as the VM itself is written in Haskell, and GHC-generated *native* code is about as fast as Oracle Hotspot Java...) 00:24:04 i don't know anything about that. so GHC is normally a VM with a JIT? 00:25:00 no, GHC (normally) compiles to native code 00:25:20 i thought it was considered to be relatively performant 00:25:28 (i don't know anything about haskell) 00:25:34 (it's got a bytecode compiler for the REPL GHCi and for Template Haskell, but that's not used for normal code) 00:26:34 slightly off-topic: are there any decent R6RS implemenbtations that will spit out a regular linux ELF binary? 00:26:37 well Haskell isn't C, it does have overhead from garbage collection and lazy evaluation, despite the compiler doing its best work to actually turn code into strict code, and hopefully using unboxed values, whenver possible 00:27:28 dunno (I actually work mostly in Haskell these days, and OCaml in the past; I just thought implementing Scheme (the obvious language to implement) would be a neat projects) 00:28:58 well that's cool. what's your take on the call-by-name/call-by-value debate (as it pertains to Haskell and OCaml)? 00:29:34 haroldwu [~user@223-140-156-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:34 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 00:30:40 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:11 they're both nice at times, and they both suck at times 00:31:47 haha 00:32:08 Like most things. 00:32:14 i read a good bit of rob harper's blog last night. there's a good bit of call-by-name hate on there 00:32:31 If it's not ML, he hates it, period. 00:32:40 in Haskell you have to be careful about space leaks in places, and you need to know when to explicitly make particular values strict... but then in OCaml you can't do things like build data structures as you deconstruct them; OCaml does provide a way to create lazy thunks, but you have to do it explicitly, so it doesn't work well with other code 00:32:50 When I concluded that it was just ML Is Perfect propaganda, I plonked him. 00:33:14 the parts I miss from OCaml are things like parameterized modules, not strict evaluation 00:33:22 http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/modules-matter-most/#comment-733 00:33:22 http://tinyurl.com/m6vkmkf 00:33:39 lazy evaluation is nice except in the cases where it doesn't work, and then you just have to know what those cases are so you can make them strict 00:33:44 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:27 so i haven't read plotkin's paper on the subject yet, but it's clear to me how one can emulate call-by-name semantics in a call-by-value language (by putting thunks everywhere). but it's not obvious to me how one could do the opposite. 00:34:29 (the reason why Haskell doesn't have parameterized modules as they aren't very compatible with type classes, and type classes are too nice to give up) 00:34:41 *is they aren't 00:36:45 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 00:39:13 the comment about how "types an implement a type class only one way"... that's a major use case for newtypes, which basically wrap a type without any added expense, and hence allow giving new instances to types... 00:43:58 speaking of rob harper, i already found two bugs in the first chapter of his online intro to ML book. 00:44:21 both on the same hastily-written line of code, in fact. 00:45:07 just read the second of the two, it just sounded like a screed against Haskell and its type classes, and F# and its (deservedly) being a shitty language 00:45:09 *jcowan* snickers 00:45:16 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:29 for how great ML parameterized modules are, they are hard to use in the fine-grained way you can use type classes in Haskell 00:46:20 as to use any function in a parameterized way, you have to define a functor (in ML terminology) that contains it and takes another module, and then define a module by applying that functor against another module, and then use that module... 00:46:42 whereas in Haskell you just define your function as taking a value that has an instance of a given type class and use it directly 00:47:12 *tabemann* never used parameterized functions much when working in OCaml, as they seemed obtuse to be practical to use much the time 00:47:23 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:54 -!- evhan [~evhan@pdpc/supporter/active/evhan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:13 actually, I read the first one 00:48:14 evhan [~evhan@pdpc/supporter/active/evhan] has joined #scheme 00:48:32 Actually, thunks are not sufficient to implement CBN. Consider this: 00:48:37 forget that, they're the same artical 00:48:51 by thunks you mean zero-argument functions? 00:48:54 Yes. 00:48:54 *article 00:49:12 zero-argument functions have the problem that they in use may have different complexity from lazy evaluation 00:49:26 because they are evaluated every time, whereas lazy values are evaluated once and then saved 00:50:01 note that OCaml at least *does* support lazy evaluation, but only explicitly, and lazy evaluation tends to not be very useful when you only use it piecemeal rather than pervasively 00:50:01 True, but given such things you can always memoize them. 00:50:34 Consider this piece of Algol 60: 00:50:35 real procedure GPS(I, N, Z, V); 00:50:36 real I, N, Z, V; 00:50:36 begin for I := 1 step 1 until N do Z := V; 00:50:36 GPS := 1 00:50:36 end 00:50:45 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:52 "GPS := 1" means that the return value is 1. 00:51:18 IMHO it's more useful to have lazy evaluation as the default, and to only explicitly add strictness as needed, especially if the compiler is smart enough to do strictness analysis and detect how strictness propagates through code (and thus be able to optimize such code) 00:51:23 Thunking + memoization will not deal with the fact that I is both a CBN argument and an iteration variable. 00:51:35 condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has joined #scheme 00:52:08 I'm not used to thinking about Algol 60-style call-by-name, where it can have destructive updates of values 00:52:32 That is very subtle CBN code; "GPS" stands for General Problem Solver, and indeed it can compute any real function. 00:53:16 It is a generalization of Newton-Raphson iteration. 00:53:16 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-16-249.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53:58 yeah, that's something quite different from lazy evaluation a la Haskell 00:54:15 you couldn't do that in Haskell 00:54:28 Not destructive updates of values, no; you can't make a 5 into a 3 (though early buggy Fortran compilers did allow that). 00:54:43 I and Z must still be lvalues, in C terms. 00:55:02 that's what I mean by destructive update, just *having* lvalues in the first place 00:55:09 The trick is that the last three actual arguments may be expressed in terms of the first actual argument. 00:55:13 there's no such thing as an lvalue in Haskell 00:55:22 *jcowan* nods. 00:56:26 So CBN = lvalues (CBR) plus thunking. 00:56:44 *tabemann* thinks that it's probably a *bad* thing to allow the kinds of tricks that Algol 60 allows, as they basically make it hard to have any kind of modularity 00:57:14 -!- condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:40 condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has joined #scheme 00:57:42 Oh, I agree. Essentially all its successors have abandoned it: the CBN in Algol 68 is mere thunking. 00:58:55 what Algol 60 allows results in things like the infamous man-or-boy test (a piece of code that even Knuth wasn't really able to wrap his brain around, as his "correct" answer turned out to be wrong) 00:59:27 A68 Classic had type-driven autothunking and autodethunking, but there was a tendency to fall into loops at compile time, so revised A68 abandoned autothunking. 01:01:06 there's a reason why Haskell managed to remain pure, as it is practically impossible to write lazy impure code that makes sense, as assuming one's code is pure allows many kinds of compiler optimizations not otherwise available (there are trap doors that allow you to write *impure* code in Haskell, but the optimizer very commonly breaks those in practice) 01:02:01 i.e. even if one uses a trap door to write impure code, that impure code *has* to remain externally pure, or otherwise it almost certainly won't work thanks to lazy evaluation plus compiler optimizations 01:03:03 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:03:03 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:36 -!- Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:57 -!- brianmwaters [46d7014b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.215.1.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05:44 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:05:47 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:05 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:06:07 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:25 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:06:29 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:55 hmm 01:07:13 have there every been any other languages with Algol 60-style call-by-name other than itself? 01:07:32 even lazy evaluation languages are few, even though that's in good part due to historical reasons 01:07:40 -!- condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:12 s/every/ever 01:08:51 brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has joined #scheme 01:10:53 Quoth WP: 01:10:54 .NET languages can simulate call-by-name using delegates or Expression parameters. The latter results in an abstract syntax tree being given to the function. Eiffel provides agents, which represents an operation to be evaluated when needed. Seed7 provides call-by-name with function parameters. 01:11:14 The Eiffel sounds like just Scheme delay 01:11:26 I don't understand the reference to Seed7, probably just thunking. 01:12:12 thunking itself is totally different from Algol 60-style call-by-name 01:12:19 as is the likes of Scheme delay 01:12:26 which is just explicit lazy evaluation 01:13:07 *jcowan* nods. 01:13:36 Algol 60 didn't allow function *return*, however, which is why it can be implemented with just a stack. 01:13:58 So the CBN generally did not provide laziness, only a restricted kind of syntactic abstracdtion. 01:14:05 er, return of functions, I mean. 01:14:12 the upward funarg problem was basically impossible to solve without heap allocation 01:14:54 Well, upward funarg plus nested procedures. 01:15:01 C has upward funargs but no nested procedures. 01:15:20 Only Scheme Has It All (TM) 01:15:28 well yeah 01:16:16 the upward and downward funarg problems are also harder to solve with a language with mutable local variables like Scheme 01:16:34 as you can't just save your shared variables in individual closures and forget about any relationship after that 01:16:57 as you can have the situation where there's one shared local variables and two locally defined functions, one of which sets it, one of which gets it, and then return both functions from the containing function 01:17:10 Many Scheme implementations just box all mutable variables. 01:17:42 that is, all variables which are actually mutated 01:17:47 in my impl. I'm just saving stack frames on the heap, as they have to be on the heap (as it's implemented in Haskell), and just having closures point at them 01:18:03 a little less efficient, but easier to implement 01:19:03 IIRC, you ahve a bytecode interpreter? 01:19:19 -!- Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:19:21 not strictly speaking a bytecode, as the code is a Haskell data structure, but yeah 01:20:12 (the code has no built-in serialized format) 01:21:21 Oh, okay, an optimized syntax tree like Perl 01:21:40 s/Perl/Perl 5 01:22:21 it's not exactly an AST, because the code for each function is getting flattened into a linear series of VM instructions, which operate on a series of stacks, particularly argument and return stacks 01:24:59 even though during the compilation phase the code will be turned into a "homoiconic"-type data structure, the actual executed code will not be that 01:26:17 annodomini [~lambda@76.23.156.75] has joined #scheme 01:26:17 -!- annodomini [~lambda@76.23.156.75] has quit [Changing host] 01:26:17 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 01:27:55 (not using an AST for execution means less operations have to be done on the return stack) 01:28:55 So it is closer to bytecode 01:29:26 yeah 01:30:15 if I really wanted to, I could serialize it after code generation and save it to file, and later deserialize it and load it into memory for use, where then it really would be a bytecode 01:33:02 it's probably going to be a little more complex than the typical bytecode, though, as I have push-constant instructions that can push arbitrary data structures onto the argument stack 01:33:44 (I have to remember to put a safety in, though, that makes it *copy* such data structures, to avoid code doing destructive update to data structures referred to by VM instructions; this I haven't implemented yet) 01:34:52 (now, just *why* does Scheme even support destructive updates?) 01:35:59 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:38:07 It's an error to attempt to update a constant. 01:38:13 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@2601:3:8e80:21d:b1b4:fd21:2aa6:f379] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:38:14 arcfide [~arcfide@2601:3:8e80:21d:34d0:ed42:7d4c:9cf4] has joined #scheme 01:38:19 That means you need not support it, but other implementations need not report it, either. 01:38:26 by destructive update I mean the ability to mutate a value 01:38:58 Pairs, strings, and vectors are not values unless they are literals. 01:39:29 (set-car! '(a . b) 'x) does not have to work, but it does not have to throw an error either. 01:39:35 davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:39:50 I'm used to everything being a value myself, hence my use of the term 01:40:27 what I meant is: just why does Scheme have mutable state? 01:41:12 it's advertised as multi-paradigm, not pure 01:41:57 Scheme's data structures date right back to 1958 01:42:07 nobody thought there was a problem with mutable state then. 01:42:12 I know it's pure... but being at least having immutable variables and data structures would be *useful* (e.g. if it were I could tie it into the Haskell STM system, but I can't because they aren't) 01:42:24 s/pure/not pure 01:44:01 *tabemann* is basically writing imperative Haskell code right now, because there's no way to avoid all the (shared) mutable state in Scheme without running into severe performance problems (e.g. if I tried to emulate mutable state with maps or something) 01:45:07 One alternative is to implement a subset without mutable state. If you aren't just trying to write yet another random Scheme but something meant to be embedded in Haskell code, that would make more sense to me. 01:45:38 https://code.google.com/p/owl-lisp/ 01:46:09 well I'd have to throw away everything I've written so far if I were to change now, as basically *everything* is wrapped around the IO monad in it 01:46:19 Up to you, then 01:46:38 "Write one to throw away; you will anyhow." "Write *two* to throw away; you will anyhow." 01:46:55 the big thing about this that I dislike, though, is not being able to use Haskell STM from within Scheme, which I might be able to do were I able to implement the Scheme VM in pure code 01:47:05 because Haskell STM is really neat 01:47:35 even though in theory I *could* implement my own Scheme STM independent of Haskell STM, just so as to be able to *have* STM (because I really like the whole concept) 01:49:03 (STM with Scheme wouldn't be *as* nice as Haskell STM, though, as the type system wouldn't be there to force you to write safe code) 01:49:25 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:49:28 *jcowan* nods. 01:49:39 Yeah, if you want embedded Haskellisms, go with the pure subset of Scheme 01:52:47 I'll end up just basically saying "STM won't work if you mutate shared state", and leave it up to the programmer to follow that 01:52:57 which is how STM is anywhere anyways 01:55:27 at least Scheme doesn't make it as *tempting* to mutate state as, say, Java (which I was presenting using STM in to my coworkers recently) 01:56:21 mutate state in* 01:56:40 Right. Like ML, you can do a whole lot of programming with no, or only minimal, mutation 01:59:22 you can have a language that is impure which still *discourages* mutating *uncontrolled* mutable state, such as Clojure 02:09:52 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 02:11:41 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:54 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-72-84-229-181.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:21:52 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@2601:3:8e80:21d:34d0:ed42:7d4c:9cf4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:16 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34:40 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:38:27 -!- davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:57:07 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:58:04 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has 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[~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:07 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 14:35:02 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@cc-presse.inet2.messe.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:38 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 14:44:52 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:44:56 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:44:56 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 14:48:18 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 14:48:34 noam_ [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 14:48:45 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 14:49:22 githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-57-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:46 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 14:50:15 I've recently been made aware that symbols are much less important in Scheme than they are in some other Lispen, being barely anything more than "automatically interned immutable strings". I wonder if it would be feasible for a future standard to just define them as being exactly that, automatically interned immutable strings, also piggybacking a presumably otherwise desired immutable string API. 14:50:29 mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:51:45 -!- noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:52:05 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 14:53:50 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:50 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-57-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:49 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 15:00:16 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:24 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 15:03:06 noam__ [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 15:03:35 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:04:36 -!- hiyosi 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[~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:03:40 flux0r [6cf7d9b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.247.217.185] has joined #scheme 17:08:19 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 17:09:33 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:01 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:58 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:20:17 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:21:00 jrajav [~jrajav@user-0c6smgl.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 17:22:51 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 17:23:31 -!- fractal [~fractal@61-230-114-3.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:49 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:37 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 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zipit (an embedded device). Is it a good implementation? 18:14:33 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 18:21:25 Guile 2.x is a reasonable implementation. Guile 1.x, not so much. IMAO. 18:21:48 An alternative is chicken, which is supposed to work on mipsel and has SDL support. 18:22:39 it works on mipsel (32 and 64 bit) 18:24:54 Then I'll use chicken. 18:37:38 Chicken chicken. 18:38:27 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD90A2C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:38:50 taylanub [tub@p4FD93218.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:41:49 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:43:45 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93218.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 18:43:54 is there a reference somewhere that lists what scheme funcs can be implemented in terms of OTHER scheme funcs? 18:44:09 i want to implement that base minimum OUTSIDE of scheme 18:44:15 and do rest as libraries 18:44:27 elegantly in scheme itself 18:44:57 everything but the so called special forms 18:45:07 No, although the R5RS will list some procedures as `primitive' and some as `library' as a hint for implementors. 18:45:17 In principle, but you really don't want to implement numbers as procedures. 18:45:30 You can reduce it all to lambda and application. 18:45:46 in the end yes 18:46:24 pumpkin360 [~main@bwe60.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:46:30 theseb: I would say that looking at Chibi opcodes would be a good starting point. 18:46:56 https://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/source/browse/opcodes.c 18:47:09 Not all are primitive, but you can prune down from there. 18:47:11 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@user-0c6smgl.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 18:47:17 I realize this question can be interpreted many ways......the most useless/pedantic answer being...."lambda calculus is turing complete! nothing else is needed!!!" ;) 18:48:42 The trade-off between coding convenience, structural clarity, and performance is up to you to decide. 18:49:12 Riastradh: sadly you are right....and it isn't always easy to communicate your intensions along that spectrum so easily 18:49:20 intentions* 18:49:38 Riastradh: it requires alot of qualifiers in this channel to specify what one means 18:49:48 kuribas: in case you are using OpenEmbedded/Yocto, there's the meta-chicken layer which provides chicken and some eggs. 18:50:15 kuribas: https://github.com/OSSystems/meta-chicken 18:51:01 Hi. How to determine when are the arguments passed by value and when by reference? I hear that by value always but the someone said that cons works on references. Also was disapointed when (make-vector 10 (make-vector 10 0)) created an vector of references to the same vector. How do determine when things work on values and when on references ? 18:51:10 C-Keen: not sure what you mean....e.g. +...how would you implement that in terms of the special forms? 18:51:35 As you said, represent numbers as lambda expressions (lambda is a special form). 18:51:43 ug 18:51:51 pumpkin360, Scheme always passes arguments by identity. `Pass-by-value' and `pass-by-reference' are confusing terms that ill-describe pretty much any language. 18:52:20 jcowan: you are right ...i don't know how to say...."is there a *sane* way to implement + in terms of other scheme funcs" 18:52:24 In contrast, for example, C passes arguments by copy. You can pass an object's identity only by way of passing a copy of a pointer to it. 18:52:29 jcowan: wait..i guess i just did 18:52:31 ;) 18:52:42 mario-goulart: no, it uses openwrt. 18:52:46 Riastradh: What does the "identity" stand for, what does that mean ? 18:53:14 `Identity' means if the callee changes it then the caller sees the changes. 18:53:28 That is, the object seen by the caller and the object seen by the callee are one and the same. 18:53:57 You could represent numbers as lists like (), (()), (() ()), (() () ()), in which case + is just append. 18:54:08 But in a practical sense, no. 18:54:14 jcowan: thanks 18:54:20 As I say, the Chibi opcodes are a nice basis to start with. 18:54:36 jcowan: i'll look at Chibi tonite...thanks again 18:54:55 i didn't know Chicken compiled down to C...that is awesome 18:55:52 theseb: there's also an egg which emits javascript: http://wiki.call-cc.org/egg/spock 18:55:54 Riastradh: so if I don't pass a self evaluating item to a function, the function gets the original item ? 18:56:02 mario-goulart: go us! 18:56:13 :-) 18:58:03 There are four main strategies: compiling to machine code, compiling to C, compiling to bytecode (JVM or CLR or special-purpose, with or without JIT), and tree-walking interpreters. 18:58:08 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:26 To which we may now add compiling to Javascript. 18:58:40 jcowan: lol :) 18:59:01 Riastradh: no, it does not work. Where can I read how does it work? 18:59:04 pumpkin360, doesn't matter whether it's self-evaluating or not, although you can't distinguish a copy from the original in the case of a self-evaluating datum. 18:59:18 Can't *portably* distinguish it. 18:59:36 Portably or reliably, sure. 19:01:00 And that is not true in all cases: thus copy-string *must* return a copy distinguishable from the original. 19:01:53 pumpkin360: which language would behave with (make-vector 10 (make-vector 10 0)) as you wanted it? I would like to avoid that language ;p 19:01:54 I like to use such strings as unique tags. 19:02:04 Different kind of copy, jcowan. 19:02:16 Riastradh: Ok, thanks, I think I found what I wanted - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3262119/scheme-pass-by-reference. It looks like lists are always passed by reference, just like You said 19:02:55 Also, sorry -- when I said `self-evaluating', I really meant to replace that by `literal'. 19:03:39 pumpkin360, all objects are passed by identity. Scheme does not have a first-class concept of references, but it does have a clear concept of identity, in the sense of EQV? and in the sense that modifications in the callee are reflected in the caller. 19:05:00 Riastradh: but You can't just do it on variables because variables are bound to formal parameter names on function invoke, right ? 19:05:03 It's fairly clear, but blurry around the edges, as can be seen by reading the definitions of eqv? in R[4567]RS. 19:05:07 Variables are not objects. 19:05:28 pumpkin360: In the sense you mean, Scheme is purely call by value. 19:05:47 that is, expressions in invocations are evaluated to objects, and the objects are passed by identity to the callee. 19:06:16 The term `call-by-value' is uselessly confusing, because both C and Scheme can be said to be `call-by-value' but that means something completely different in the two languages. 19:06:19 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:06:53 ijp [~user@host5-81-19-129.range5-81.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:07:47 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:24 Riastradh: How so? C also evaluates all expressions in invocations to objects (some of which are pointers) and then passes those objects by identity to the callee. 19:08:35 In C, given struct x { int f; }; void f(struct x s) { s.f = 1; }, we are guaranteed that after `struct x s; s.f = 0; f(s);', s.f will still be 0. 19:08:40 Ok, created a copy of this conversation, I will just read it as long as I will not understand. And it may take long, but perhaps not. 19:09:33 In Scheme, given a comparable record type and (define (f s) (set-x-f! s 1)), we are guaranteed that in the ellipsis in (let ((s (make-x))) (set-x-f! s 0) (f s) ...), (x-f s) will be 1. 19:09:39 thanks everyone, see You later. 19:09:45 *poof* 19:09:47 -!- Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:10:12 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:41 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@bwe60.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:10:42 Yeah, I tend to forget about the ability of C to have arguments of type struct s. 19:11:01 It was a late add-on and isn't used in any of the standard libraries. 19:13:54 jcowan: no usage at all in std libs? I find that interesting :) 19:14:17 miloshadzic [~miloshadz@213.137.110.174] has joined #scheme 19:19:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:03 -!- tenq [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has quit [Quit: :tuiQ] 19:26:02 tenq [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has joined #scheme 19:32:44 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:33:20 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 19:39:31 -!- ijp [~user@host5-81-19-129.range5-81.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:23 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:36 There's no usage in C stdlibs of blocks (lambda) either. 19:41:22 ijp [~user@host5-81-19-129.range5-81.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:47:39 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:14 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 20:00:47 Well, presumably "complex" is a struct behind the scenes in some systems. 20:02:26 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:29 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:30 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:09:18 jcowan: is your middle name Woldemar? 20:09:58 .oO(yeah, ijp, that's right, be creepy on IRC) 20:09:59 Indeed. 20:10:13 Oh, I don't hide my identity. 20:10:15 jcowan: then I found the lojban book you edited in a charity shop recently 20:10:25 Right. 20:10:34 a pleasant surprise 20:11:33 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:16:30 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:01 does anyone know of a comparison of different pointer tagging schemes used in Lisp implementations? 20:24:56 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:25:39 -!- Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:32:19 ecraven: ISTR seeing a good survey paper on that. Lemme look it up. 20:33:20 stamourv: that would be great! 20:34:03 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.39.4394 20:35:19 thanks! 20:35:22 that looks great 20:35:36 I really enjoyed it. 20:35:37 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:28 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63499.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:37:39 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:40:51 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 20:42:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:42:41 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 21:06:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:10:46 -!- pcarrier_ [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:30 pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has joined #scheme 21:15:22 I see it cites Stanley Shebs's work. I was an informant on that: I explained how the Lisp for Tandem computers represented data. 21:15:33 *jcowan* adds it to his reading queue 21:15:33 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:19:29 stamourv: that is exactly what i was looking for, thank you very much again for pointing me to it! 21:22:37 -!- pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:31 pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has joined #scheme 21:29:35 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:22 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:38:32 -!- add^_ [~user@m37-3-52-159.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:41:02 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:17 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-25-192-193.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:26 pothos [~pothos@114-36-244-204.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:57 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:58:40 -!- GlenK [~GlenK@vpn.lax-noc.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:52 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 22:05:09 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:05:24 -!- ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:13 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:17:52 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 22:19:07 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20:44 -!- pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:06 pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has joined #scheme 22:25:39 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:10 Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has joined #scheme 22:26:16 vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:29:28 -!- pcarrier [pcarrier@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe70:2b9d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:33 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-169-148-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:53:25 -!- lloda [~user@mail.infoklick.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:04:14 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:29 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:52:58 travisb [~travisb@adsl-69-217-167-64.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]