00:01:20 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 00:04:56 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:05:08 -!- brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:06:50 When I'm looping through a list manually, how do I know I've reached the end? I tried combining (cdr) and (empty?) but that gives me <#void> as the last item. 00:06:56 http://paste.lisp.org/+2YSY 00:07:02 Since I'm also counting integers, I didn't thing a (for) loop or something was appropriate. 00:07:11 For the record, I'm using racket. 00:19:54 condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has joined #scheme 00:23:05 haroldwu [~user@116.59.240.2] has joined #scheme 00:33:40 -!- ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:55 -!- vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:41:19 You probably want null? 00:41:44 I haven't looked at the paste yet, though. 00:46:29 Hmm. Now that I look at it, I'm guessing your problem before was that your descr wasn't a normal list? 00:52:43 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@202.111.192.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53:13 davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:20 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:53:31 ddp [~ddp@udp009683uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #scheme 00:54:42 -!- ddp [~ddp@udp009683uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:20 -!- offby1` [~user@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #scheme 01:02:13 nowhere_man [~pierre@5070B859.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #scheme 01:08:34 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #scheme 01:15:05 vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 01:16:45 darrh00 [~user@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 01:34:31 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 01:34:33 haroldwu_chrome [~haroldwuc@116.59.240.2] has joined 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host closed the connection] 04:47:21 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:33 travisb [~travisb@adsl-76-228-195-72.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:58:26 -!- travisb is now known as tabemann 04:59:53 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 05:05:21 Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@140.206.255.156] has joined #scheme 05:06:15 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:09:07 -!- haroldwu [~user@116.59.240.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:12:21 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@140.206.255.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:13:52 Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@140.206.255.156] has joined #scheme 05:14:14 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 05:26:17 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:23 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@140.206.255.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:56 Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@112.65.188.126] has joined #scheme 05:31:01 flux0r [~flux0r@pool-71-189-238-151.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:31:19 -!- YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:37:04 -!- tabemann [~travisb@adsl-76-228-195-72.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:40 -!- tenq [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has quit [Quit: :tuiQ] 05:41:26 tenq [~tenq@199.19.116.207] has joined #scheme 05:48:27 -!- flux0r [~flux0r@pool-71-189-238-151.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:40 -!- condy [~condy@113.140.86.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:12:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:44:19 levi, I eventually found the problem and it wasn't related to my loop *sheepish grin* 06:46:47 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 06:55:35 gravicappa 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17:03:42 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.139.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:02 Can someone explain why definition are not expressions? 17:04:16 e.g. does that mean (define pi 3.14) is NOT an expression? 17:04:32 they are expressions  everything is in Scheme  but they return an undefined value 17:04:34 or (define (add x y) (+ x y)) is not an expression? 17:04:42 dpk: oh 17:04:42 meaning that in general they're not used as such 17:04:45 dpk: i can accept that 17:06:18 again from r5rs...what does this man..."[Scheme is] the first Lisp dialect to distinguish procedures from lambda expressions and symbols"? 17:06:22 mean* 17:06:37 c'mon 17:06:38 really? 17:06:54 I think even in 1960s folks were using symbols to represent functions 17:07:06 to represent lambda functions even 17:07:11 not relevant any more. old versions of Lisp were dynamically scoped and all e.g. (lambda (x) x) did was return the actual list (lambda (x) x) 17:07:20 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:41 whereas lexical scoping means that Scheme has to have procedure objects encapsulating the environment they're created in 17:08:18 dpk: whereas dynamic scoped didn't need to store the env? 17:08:38 ok 17:08:45 no, because the environment was the one used at call time, not at creation time 17:10:16 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 17:10:26 -!- vraid [~vraid@h217-27-188-90.cust.tyfon.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:11:09 r5rs seems to suggest that lexical scoping is more like lambda calculus....therefore, scheme was the first major dialect of lisp to treat 1st class procedures "as in lambda calculus" 17:11:29 ...basically r5rs seems to be just saying "WE GOT LEXICAL SCOPING" mutliple times in different ways 17:12:20 I don't see how lambda cal had lexical scoping since it had not named functions 17:12:29 well, yes 17:12:59 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 17:13:03 jcowan! 17:13:29 what ho! 17:13:32 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:13:34 i was just about to explain to my colleage theseb how lexical scoping applies to the lambda calculus 17:13:46 Carry on, Sergeant. 17:14:04 yes please do 17:14:07 dpk: and thanks btw 17:14:24 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6450A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:15:03 say i have: 17:15:25 (x.(y.x)) 17:15:32 tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 17:16:15 if i do ((x.(y.x)) a) i get a function out that will always return a 17:16:27 yes 17:16:29 which if dynamic scoping applied, i wouldn't 17:16:34 i know lambda cal 17:16:45 thinking.. 17:17:56 rudybot: (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)) 'a) '--ignored--) 17:17:57 dpk: your sandbox is ready 17:17:57 dpk: ; Value: 'a 17:17:58 dpk: what would a hypothetical dynamically scoped lambda cal return? 17:19:25 it would return x, or be semantically invalid. not sure because dynamic scope doesn't really make sense for the lambda calculus because symbols' meanings could then change at runtime 17:19:45 AFAICT that use case will always return 'a under either scope rule 17:19:51 oh? 17:20:04 dpk: ok..so basically lambda cal is lexically scoped....i'll try to rem that 17:20:25 the x would be unbound in the inner function under dynamic scope, no? 17:20:38 *dpk* tries in Emacs Lisp 17:21:24 (ok, first i have to wait all day for emacs to start) 17:21:30 lol 17:22:14 ELISP> (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)) 'a) '--ignored--) 17:22:14 *** Eval error *** Invalid function: ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)) (quote a)) 17:22:47 dpk: i guess you are right..you nailed it.....dynamic scope != lambda cal friendly 17:23:00 That's because (lambvda ...) is not an expression in Elisp 17:23:05 though it is in common lisp 17:23:10 huh? 17:23:17 yea huh? 17:23:23 You have to say #'(lambda ...) in Elisp 17:23:24 i use lambda exps in .emacs all the time 17:23:32 i do? 17:23:45 i've never seen #' 17:23:52 You can use raw lambdas in the car of a form, or in a defun or such, but not as a plain expression. 17:23:59 Try evaluating (lambda (x) 10) and see what you get. 17:24:21 ah..you mean context matters...ok 17:24:39 i SOME locations i can use lambda exps..ok 17:24:46 raw* 17:25:02 (((lambda (x) #'(lambda (y) x)) 'a) '--ignored--) fails with almost the same error (but with "(function )" obvs) 17:25:18 and (lambda (x) 10) as a raw expression in ielm works fine 17:25:56 (i'm not a regular emacs user nor an emacs lisp programmer, fwiw) 17:26:08 dpk: I can't get your ELISP line to work in SBCL either :-P 17:27:11 #'foo returns the function value of foo; #'(lambda ...) returns a closure of the lambda. 17:27:47 How do you launch ielm from the command line? My script to do that seems to have gone missing. 17:28:22 M-x ielm ? 17:28:37 Err 17:28:48 I'm actually not sure I understood what you meant. 17:28:48 Yeah, I just don't know how to do M-x from the (Unix) command line. 17:29:02 Right, me neither 17:29:22 nor do I know what elisp name is bound to the IELM REPL. 17:29:24 2 more mysteries from r5rs if I may...scheme as a "single lexical scope for all variables" ??? it does? 17:29:37 sorry....a single lexical ENVIRONMENT for all variables 17:29:46 what does that mean..."a single lexical environment"? 17:30:10 and what does this mean finally...Scheme has "no restrictions on how expressions are composed"? 17:33:38 It means that the meaning of an identifier in Scheme is specified solely by the lexical scope rules. (car x) invokes the car procedure on the value of x, and (x car) invokes the procedure bound to x on the car procedure. 17:34:08 In Common Lisp, the car in (car x) and in (x car) have different meanings and potentially different values. 17:34:47 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 17:35:19 And wherever a Scheme expression is permitted, *any* Scheme expression is permitted, without limitation; no distinction between "expressions" and 'statements", etc. 17:35:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@cc-presse.inet2.messe.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:40 IMHO one of the nice features about it :) 17:36:32 Early Fortran compilers, for example, allowed subscripts only of the form "variable", "constant", "variable + constant", or "variable - constant". 17:36:40 That was a restriction on composition. 17:37:18 s/subscripts/subscripts in array references/ 17:38:25 That said, Schemes are permitted to restrict the use of expressions that return other than one value. 17:39:07 If bar is a procedure accepting no values and returning two values, then (foo (bar)) may or may not work. 17:40:59 theseb: does that help? 17:42:26 just a sec...reading 17:44:00 jcowan: so scheme has less or no limitations on what expressions can be swaped..is that it? 17:44:29 Right. 17:44:33 jcowan: btw....i think (and hope!) (car x) and (x car) have different meaning in scheme just like cl 17:44:53 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has left #scheme 17:44:57 Sure.. that wasn't the point 17:45:05 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 17:45:12 The point was that in Scheme, the "car" in (car x) and (x car) refers to the -same- car 17:45:21 ah 17:45:22 Different meanings as wholes, yes. 17:45:24 Whereas in CL, they'd refer to two -unrelated- symbols called "car" 17:45:30 And likewise, the "x" refer to the same whatever. 17:45:40 LeoNerd: Almost. The symbol is the same: the binding is different. 17:45:54 In CL there are two namespaces; the function namespace and the variable namespace. It's possible for the same named symbol to have different meanings in these namespaces. 17:46:00 Yes. 17:46:17 LeoNerd, jcowan: i'm impressed you know how to speak the lingo....where/how did you learn this? e.g. somehow you were able to read all this out of the single cryptic phrase "scheme has a single lexical environment" 17:46:36 It's often claimed to be an advantage, meaning you can write a list-processing function that takes a parameter and stores it in a variable called "list", which doesn't conflict with the core function called "list" 17:46:37 to me that is just cryptic..i understand now that you explained it differently 17:46:42 Whereas in Scheme we'd just store it in 'l' :) 17:48:22 theseb: By no means. I picked it up from reading many different books and papers, talking with experts, etc. 17:48:44 Or 'lst' 17:49:04 lst jst scrms f txt spk 17:49:07 Or, thanks to lexical binding, if the list procedure is not needed in the code, just use 'list' itself as the varaible. 17:49:22 I dislike l, because it looks too much like 1. 17:50:11 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:50:55 Now, with dynamic binding, using 'list' as the variable name would *not* work, because that would require that none of the procedures invoked by this procedure need the `list` procedure either. 17:51:11 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:21 Lexical binding means that to find where a (non-global) variable can be used, you only need observe a specific, limited section of the code. 17:52:47 Pre-Common Lisps had dynamic binding, and the double namespace helped to compensate: you could write (defun foo (list list2) (goo list list2)) and goo would still have access to the global `list` procedure. 17:53:33 Newlisp takes this to an extreme: it has dynamic binding, but since every small group of procedures is encouraged to have its own namespace, the harm of dynamic binding is pretty well mitigated. 17:54:29 jcowan: oh i think i see what you mean...."single lexical env for all vars" means "scheme doesn't use namespaces" kinda sorta? 17:54:32 The *ears* convention on global (dynamic) variables also helps to mitigate the issue. 17:54:37 theseb: Right 17:54:40 YAY! 17:54:48 Nor does it have packages, which are different from namespaces 17:54:59 CL is big on building strong bodies 12 ways. 17:55:10 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6450A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:12 Schemers think that makes it weaker rather than stronger, as a rule. 17:55:51 eermuffs 17:55:53 jcowan: schemers don't like any sorts of blocks except for lambda expressions? 17:55:54 ear 17:56:10 jcowan: no "modules", "packages" .."namespaces" or other such block allowed? 18:01:01 Earmuffs, right. 18:01:19 theseb: Most Schemes have library systems that superficially, but only superficially, resemble CL packages. 18:02:06 vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:02:13 Most of them have no run-time instantiation: they are just syntactic conventions for hiding or renaming identifiers from a surrounding context, and don't do anything that `let` can't do. 18:03:47 Well, (define x #f) (define y #f) ... (let () (define a ...) (define b ...) (define c ...) (set! x a) (set! y b)) 18:03:51 that kind of thing 18:11:54 -!- jrapdx [~jra@66-191-21-195.dhcp.lncy.or.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:51 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 18:20:39 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6450A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:21:46 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfc560.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:55 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:58 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:21:58 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 18:22:56 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-169-148-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:23:51 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77beab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 18:42:21 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 -!- jkraemer_ [~jkraemer@66.102.14.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:55 jkraemer [jkraemer@nat/google/x-lqkcfxxwihzlyfrb] has joined #scheme 18:53:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6450A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:04 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:07:38 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:07:49 what is an "escape procedure"? 19:08:33 oh found it 19:08:36 "The escape procedure is a Scheme procedure of one argument that, if it is later passed a value, will ignore whatever continuation is in effect at that later time and will give the value instead to the continuation that was in effect when the escape procedure was created." 19:09:55 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:10:22 jcowan: I sure hope that module systems can do more than `let' can. Keeping phases straight, for one. Resolving module names, etc. 19:10:48 theseb: they are used for example to escape quickly from a deep recursion (search a value in a tree, for example) 19:11:09 stamourv: Yes, I was oversimplifying. 19:11:16 Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 19:13:40 -!- ASau [~user@p5797EA21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:20:14 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6450A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:21:58 Shoozza [shoozza@unaffiliated/shoozza] has joined #scheme 19:21:58 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:22:23 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:31 ASau [~user@p5797EA21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:31:46 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:35:02 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:27 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 19:44:30 -!- ASau 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22:57:39 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 22:58:11 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@2601:3:8e80:21d:94f5:46f4:82d8:faf0] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:58:12 arcfide [~arcfide@2601:3:8e80:21d:b1b4:fd21:2aa6:f379] has joined #scheme 23:18:18 brianmwaters [46d7014b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.215.1.75] has joined #scheme 23:20:25 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD634EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:22:46 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:24 i'm in the middle of writing a simple tokenizer and parser with R6 23:23:31 with R6Rs, sorry. 23:24:25 currently I'm using R6RS records for product types. wondering if there's any particular way to deal with sum types, or if it's best to just use dynamic typing for that 23:26:00 i'm thinking of just definig a record type for each product type, and then with dynamic typing you can pass any of these into a function, so you get sum types "naturally" 23:26:20 as opposed to the facilities provided by ML and haskell 23:27:57 hope that doesn't sound like babbling nonsense haha 23:36:54 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@202.111.192.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:46 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 23:47:17 tabemann [~travisb@adsl-69-217-170-196.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme