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02:56:52 <danking> I'm not sure I'd call the latest development version of scsh bit-rotten.
02:57:29 <Riastradh> Has someone picked it up?
02:59:45 <danking> Riastradh: Yeah, the github link I posted above is being maintained by github.com/roderyc and there's been activity on the mailing list lately.
02:59:56 <Riastradh> Oh, OK.
03:00:56 <danking> I can't personally vouch for it's stability, but roderyc seems somewhat committed to keeping scsh working.
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06:18:18 <tabemann> question
06:18:54 <tabemann> in R7RS-small, when putting integers in bytevectors, what's the standard semantics for handling out-of-range values, i.e. ones not between 0 and 255?
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06:54:35 <Riastradh> Semantics?  Sounds like a bug to me.
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09:57:02 <taylanub> tabemann: Type error, but just "an error" kind of error, not "signals an error" kind of error. :P
09:57:07 <taylanub> I think .. let's check.
09:59:53 <taylanub> In 1.3.3 "Entry format": "It is an error for a procedure to be presented with an argument that it is not specified to handle.  For succinctness, we follow the convention that if an argument name is also the name of a type listed in section 3.2, then it is an error if that argument is not of the named type.  [...]  The following naming conventions also imply type restrictions: [...] byte: exact integer 0 <= byte < 256 [...]"
10:00:06 <taylanub> And the bytevector section uses "byte".
10:00:42 <taylanub> We should give rudybot the ability to cite sections from the RnRS. :P
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11:24:26 <rudybot> la la la
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16:10:49 <offby1> rudybot: seen duncanm
16:10:49 <rudybot> *offby1: duncanm was seen quitting in a-chinaman.com four hours ago, saying "Ping timeout: 260 seconds", and then duncanm was seen joining in #scheme four hours ago
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16:30:15 <theseb> why is begin considered a SPECIAL form?  all list elements get evaluated just like a "normal" operator
16:31:03 <fds> Maybe because it fixes evaluation order?
16:32:27 <theseb> reading SICP slowly it appears there the "specialness" is subtle.....begin is guaranteed to eval all the elements in order from left to right!
16:32:40 <theseb> fds: so yes i think you were right if that was what you were getting at
16:33:24 <asumu> theseb: it also has splicing behavior when used at the top-level.
16:33:58 <theseb> asumu: what is "splicing behavior"?
16:34:15 <asumu> theseb: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_418 (see bullet 1)
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16:36:55 <theseb> asumu: "This expression type is used to sequence side effects"....yup....begin has a guaranteed order unlike rest of scheme...nice
16:38:12 <theseb> asumu: "the forms inside the <body> are spliced into the surrounding body, as if the begin wrapper were not actually present."
16:38:36 <theseb> asumu: the 2nd quote seems to be saying...."splicing basically means that the 'begin' isn't doing anything so you can ignore it"
16:39:10 <asumu> That is not the case. It is especially useful for macros that introduce forms into its surrounding context.
16:39:29 <asumu> For example, if your macro expands into a series of definitions that should end up in the module's body.
16:39:55 <theseb> asumu: ah macros....ok..thanks
16:40:34 <theseb> asumu: but what is the "begin" doing for you?...those defs will be there even if you forgot the begin wrapper
16:40:56 <theseb> asumu: " as if the begin wrapper were not actually present "
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16:42:22 <asumu> It's not possible to write a macro that expands into (define x ...) (define y ...) without a `begin` form. Macros output a single syntactic form, not multiple.
16:43:04 <asumu> So you have to output something like (begin (define x ...) (define y ...)) from the macro.
16:43:54 <theseb> ok...thanks...that makes sense
16:44:06 <asumu> Note that you can't use something like `let` there instead of `begin` because then the scoping is wrong.
16:44:07 <theseb> i'm impressed you know macros....that's on my TODO list
16:44:57 <theseb> asumu: naysayers ridicule lisp is always "dying" but there are folks like you happily doing real work with it and writing DSLs...:)
16:45:03 <theseb> s/is/as
16:46:07 <asumu> Lisp is, if anything, doing pretty well now. New lisps like Clojure and Julia are in the spotlight and generating more interest in it again.
16:47:17 *taylanub* has faint hopes for Guile to really become the "ubiquitous" extension language for GNU and other hackers.
16:47:17 <theseb> asumu: i'm curious....how did you avoid the bandwagon that says Java and C++ must be used for all "real work"?
16:47:40 <theseb> asumu: maybe you aren't afraid of peer pressure :)
16:48:12 <theseb> taylanub: the idea is cool but "emacsifying" random apps by staple gunning guile to it doesn't seem like it will work imho
16:48:19 <asumu> Well, to be fair, I work in academia and my job is to work on Racket and do research. It's harder in industry, I'm sure.
16:48:37 <theseb> asumu: i've heard of Racket and ProgrammingByDesign...great stuff
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16:49:02 <theseb> asumu: Scheme's place in education is pretty solid
16:50:03 <theseb> taylanub: correct me if i'm wrong
16:50:14 <theseb> taylanub: i know gimp uses guile...not really sure how that works
16:50:34 <taylanub> Guile itself doesn't necessarily emacsify, that's what the Emacsy project is for. :)  Guile is just a nice platform to embed in a C-family-language code-base and/or offer one's own code as an extension in Guile.
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16:50:43 <theseb> taylanub: does that means we'll see people create insane .gimp files just like people make sophisticaed .emacs files?
16:50:49 <theseb> taylanub: to tweak it all they want?
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16:51:25 <theseb> taylanub: ok
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16:52:18 <theseb> taylanub: see? suppose you bolt guile onto a C app...now what? you still have massive work to emacsify it....(I'm defining emacsification as the extreme end result of guile integration)
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17:04:04 <taylanub> Well that's the wrong way to look at it; obviously it doesn't magically turn an application into an Emacs-for-whatever, and neither should it; however when you expose the main capabilities of your application as a Guile extension (contrast to embedding), you make it possible for any other Guile-using application to natively interact with it.
17:05:16 <pjb> theseb: (begin e1 .. en) == ((lambda (ignored) ((lambda (ignored)  ((lambda (ignored) en) en-1) ) e2)) e1) ; therefore the specialness of begin is not because it can't be implemented as a macro.
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17:06:38 <theseb> pjb: whoa
17:07:18 <theseb> pjb: why do you even need a macro..it seems you just got the equivalent of a begin form with nested lambdas!?
17:07:38 <theseb> pjb: thanks btw
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17:08:19 <taylanub> theseb: Would you honestly want to write code that looks like that ? :P
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17:08:57 <pjb> theseb: the difference in in r5rs 5.1: At the top level of a program (begin <form1> ...) is equivalent to the sequence of expressions, definitions, and syntax definitions that form the body of the begin.
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17:09:57 <pjb> ((lambda (ignored) a) (define a 42)) is not the same as (begin (define a 42) a).
17:10:20 <pjb> when that begin form is a toplevel form.
17:10:36 <sepisoad> how to accept arbitrary amount of argument by a function, like printf() function in c
17:10:38 <taylanub> That's the "other" begin, actually, which just happens to have the same name.
17:11:00 <taylanub> sepisoad: (lambda (first second . rest) ...), or (lambda whole-arg-list ...)
17:11:45 <taylanub> Don't get confused and think that this means you can apply a procedure to an argument-list like (proc . arg-list), it doesn't.
17:12:30 <sepisoad> taylanub, i'm kind of newbie
17:12:59 <sepisoad> maybe you can refer me to an online source with more description
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17:21:25 <taylanub> If you want a whole book you can go with SICP or HtdP.
17:21:31 <taylanub> HtDP*
17:21:55 <taylanub> Other than that, I don't know.
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17:24:36 <Nisstyre> taylanub: I like PLAI but it isn't an intro book at all
17:24:47 <Nisstyre> The Little Schemer is probably better but not free
17:27:09 <pjb> or just the standard: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
17:27:20 <pjb> which has the advantage of having only 50 pages index included.
17:27:50 <taylanub> Well if you're a Scheme newbie but not a programming newbie, that would work.
17:28:42 <Nisstyre> taylanub: s/programming/functional programming/
17:32:24 <theseb> pjb: what is a "toplevel" form?
17:32:37 <theseb> pjb: does that mean it is not inside a lambda?
17:33:32 <pjb> It's not inside any parenthesis.
17:33:41 <pjb> Either at the REPL or in a file.
17:34:20 <pjb> Well, it could be inside parentheses of an operator that preserves the toplevelness of the subforms.  (begin (begin (define a 42)) (begin a)) --> 42 ; I'd expect.
17:35:07 <theseb> pjb: is ((lambda (ignored) a) (define a 42)) is not the same as (begin (define a 42) a). <--- why not? looks same to me
17:36:49 <pjb> because lambda introduces lexical scopes.  The (define a 42) doesn't define a in a scope englobing the  (lambda (ignored) a), therefore the free variable a in the later is not the same as the variable defined by define.
17:37:31 <pjb> Furthermore, in ((lambda (ignored) a) (define a 42)) the define is evaluated in the null environment (at least in mit scheme) so it cannot even define a variable.
17:41:13 <theseb> pjb: are you saying (define a 42) inside a lambda won't make the var a visible outside the lambda?
17:41:35 <pjb> Notice it's different for ((lambda () (define a 42) a)); there define is used in the lexical environment of lambda.  That's why taylanub talked of the "other" begin.  One could consider that it's not even the same operator, that here, it's lambda that inteprets begin forms in its body in a special way.  Hence also the name of special operator.
17:41:54 <pjb> In ((lambda (ignored) a) (define a 42)), the define is not inside the lambda it's outside.
17:42:11 <theseb> oh yes i see
17:42:49 <taylanub> Eh, that's invalid syntax by the way.
17:43:32 <taylanub> A procedure argument must strictly be an "expression".  A `define' usage is a "definition".
17:43:41 <taylanub> (I might be slightly off here.)
17:44:11 <theseb> taylanub: a definition is a valid expression...not sure you said that right
17:44:17 <pjb> Scheme is too complicated compared to Common Lisp.  In CL, all the forms are expressions.
17:46:23 <taylanub> theseb: In Scheme, a definition is not an expression.
17:47:53 <theseb> taylanub: ug...that's not good...i agree with pjb...that's getting a little too funky for me
17:48:10 <theseb> taylanub: i like the elegance of "everything in lisp is an expression"
17:48:37 <pjb> Well you can do without define basically.
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17:49:46 <pjb> It's just a tad inconvenient.
17:49:59 <pjb> We're so used to state.
17:50:50 <taylanub> If you call forced uniformity elegance, go ahead. ;)
17:50:53 <theseb> pjb: define and set! are the 2 special forms that get into state
17:51:24 <theseb> pjb: i always imagined those as being equivalent to a lambda wrapper
17:51:26 <taylanub> `define' is meant to be seen as something declarative, the way I see it.
17:53:46 <add^_> Hm?
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18:01:44 <add^_> I would call `define' declarative by nature..
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19:16:22 <tsuyoshi> is it possible to implement internal define as a macro?
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19:32:01 <pjb> tsuyoshi: you can write a macro named lambda that expands to a lambda with let instead of define.
19:32:09 <pjb> But not define itself.
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20:12:15 <tsuyoshi> pjb: so a lambda macro, which has a define literal?
20:12:30 <tsuyoshi> I guess that makes sense
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20:57:11 <theseb> is the return value of a lambda defined function like (lambda (a) b) standardized or can it vary between compliant implementations?
20:57:18 <theseb> i know it "should" be a procedure but how a procedure is *represented* doesn't seem that important or relevant
20:57:23 <theseb> reason i'm asking is it seems cleanest to me to just have a return value = to original lambda defined function itself
21:01:06 <ecraven> the return value is something you can apply to values, however that is defined in your implementation
21:01:44 <ecraven> this could be a pointer to machine code, a structure containing some sort of bytecode for an interpreter, or even just the s-expressions, for a source interpreter
21:04:02 <zett_zelett> Is there somewhere a pdf of HtDP?
21:04:17 <zett_zelett> Couldnt find one with a simple ddg search.
21:05:19 <ecraven> you can create one from the html. there probably is no legal pdf version, i'd guess
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21:07:24 <zett_zelett> Hm, sounds complicated. Thanks though.
21:08:58 <ecraven> zett_zelett: what implementation are you using?
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21:11:47 <theseb> zett_zelett: i see what you mean...that bites....yes a PDF is sorely needed
21:13:47 <theseb> ecraven: oh good.....yes..i guess what i prefer is what you call a source interpreter
21:14:09 <theseb> ecraven: i was essentially seeing if that was "allowed"....i like idea of treating everything as s-expressions and returning s expressions
21:14:30 <theseb> ecraven: instead of weird voodoo like #procedure
21:14:51 <theseb> or worse....#0x234aafab
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21:15:22 <ecraven> theseb: I wouldn't call that "weird voodoo" :)
21:15:45 <ecraven> theseb: well, whatever you return, it needs to be something that your interpreter or compiler can apply to values..
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21:16:35 <ecraven> and this includes closure information (the construction environment), which is not part of the s-expression directly
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21:30:22 <tsuyoshi> procedures are a disjoint type, though
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21:31:35 <tsuyoshi> e.g. (pair? (lambda (a) b)) must return #f
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21:38:43 <SrPx> Hey guys. Just wondering, is there any reasoning for so many built-in functions in the specification, as most of them could be implemented with Lambda Calculus? (I mean, why not make the specification slimmer and implement more complicated functions as compiler optimizations instead of part of the specs)?
21:40:26 <tsuyoshi> SrPx: which specification are you talking about?
21:41:08 <SrPx> tsuyoshi: r6sr? sorry if I misunderstood something (:
21:41:14 <add^_> It feels a lot like a troll question.
21:41:16 <SrPx> r6rs*
21:41:28 <ecraven> SrPx: what would be examples of such functions?
21:41:32 <add^_> or a flamebait
21:41:37 <SrPx> add^_: tune your troll sensor better then
21:42:07 <tsuyoshi> SrPx: ok, so in that case, the reasoning is, they want it to be useful for programmers that don't want to waste time reinventing the wheel
21:42:20 <SrPx> i'm here for longer than you most likely, people know something i ask weird questions but that is part of learning a lot of things and not being afraid of asking okay? add^_
21:42:27 <tsuyoshi> (I don't happen to like r6rs, myself)
21:42:29 <SrPx> sometimes*
21:42:56 <SrPx> tsuyoshi: I see, but wouldn't detached standard libs work for that purpose?
21:42:59 <add^_> I'd more lean to "portability" as an answer
21:43:06 <ecraven> SrPx: have you looked at r7rs?
21:43:14 <alexei> SrPx: do I find it convenient not having to implement (cos x) every time I need it
21:43:17 <SrPx> no, let me see. is it thinner? ecraven
21:43:34 <ecraven> there's a core language and extension libraries
21:43:41 <tsuyoshi> srpx: well, maybe
21:43:45 <ecraven> the core is much closer to r5rs
21:43:47 <SrPx> alexei: I mean moving it to a standard lib instead of the spec, not removing it entirely
21:43:53 <add^_> SrPx: Just make your own implementation
21:43:55 <add^_> Then
21:43:56 <SrPx> ecraven: I'll take a look brb
21:45:23 <tsuyoshi> SrPx: like.. I'm implementing scheme right now
21:45:54 <tsuyoshi> I took a look at r6rs and just decided I didn't want to do that, so I'm doing r5rs instead
21:46:08 <SrPx>  Oh, interesting ! They made a step back ecraven
21:46:12 <SrPx> add^_: performance
21:46:47 <add^_> So you answered your own question? Good
21:47:43 <tsuyoshi> which is not to say that r6rs is illegitimate... I think it's sort of like they forked the language
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21:49:09 <levi> SrPx: Scheme tries to strike a balance between being elegantly small and actually useful. Just because you *can* implement everything in terms of lambda or SK combinators doesn't mean it's practically useful to do so.
21:49:36 <SrPx> levi: that makes a lot of sense
21:50:00 <SrPx> it's becoming clear as I read it too
21:50:28 <levi> And in a sense, most of what's in SxRS *is* describing standard library features rather than core language features. The point is to define a useful language, and that means both a core and ways to do some common subset of things with it.
21:51:42 <SrPx> Okay, just wondering, then, is there a special reason Scheme is not curried?
21:52:07 <tsuyoshi> I think it used to have currying... in r2rs or something
21:52:49 <levi> You can write curried functions as easily as non-curried ones. It just doesn't do it implicitly.
21:53:31 <tsuyoshi> levi: without the implicity it's not as easy
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21:54:49 <levi> The syntax of Scheme makes curried functions a bit more awkward to use than ML or Haskell curried functions.
21:55:04 <tsuyoshi> SrPx: I don't know why it's not in scheme, but I think currying makes code harder to read
21:55:18 <levi> And Scheme tends to favor being explicit about things.
21:55:30 <tsuyoshi> my main language is sml and I avoid creating curried functions in it
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21:56:22 <levi> You could easily write a curried-define form via a macro.
21:56:55 <SrPx> Hmm okay
21:56:59 <levi> Because multi-parameter functions in Scheme are very convenient to have, it's a better default choice.
21:57:55 <levi> Try writing out a familiar Scheme program with the assumption that all functions take a single parameter. I think you'll find it very awkward.
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22:00:07 <levi> It feels much more natural in ML or Haskell because application is expressed by juxtaposition rather than explicit syntax, so you just have to put parameters next to one another and they'll be applied one at a time. In Scheme, you'd have to wrap each application in parentheses.
22:01:24 <levi> So instead of (cons elt lst), you have ((cons elt) lst), which gets awkward quickly as the number of parameters grows.
22:03:14 <levi> You may as well ask, "Why do functions return implicitly to where they were called instead of requiring you to pass an explicit continuation?" The two forms of program are isomorphic when you have access to call/cc, but one of them is far more pleasant to use than the other!
22:03:46 <ecraven> tsuyoshi: have you looked at r7rs?
22:04:39 <tsuyoshi> ecraven: yes
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22:05:20 <ecraven> doesn't that look like a reasonable successor to r5rs?
22:05:30 <tsuyoshi> I don't really think it's an improvement over r5rs... but maybe I'll switch to it later
22:08:48 <tsuyoshi> I'm coming from the point of view that I want to use scheme as an extension language, and write mostly in sml
22:09:43 <tsuyoshi> and r6rs is definitely coming from the point of view of people that want to write everything in scheme
22:11:42 <tsuyoshi> r7rs seems to be the result of people getting angry about r6rs
22:12:41 <tsuyoshi> and I'm not invested enough in scheme to be angry about anything
22:15:31 <tsuyoshi> I guess... what bothers me about r7rs is, r5rs could definitely use more standard procedures, but I think otherwise it's fine
22:15:57 <tsuyoshi> but r7rs changes the syntax and introduces new types
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23:33:47 <levi> What changes in r7rs are you opposed to?
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23:56:31 <tabemann> vector constants question
23:57:28 <tabemann> unquoted vector constants, are they equivalent to say (vector x y ...), i.e. x and y are evaluated, or are they equivalent to '#(x y), i.e. x and y are not evaluated?