00:00:07 is trace a standard scheme procedure? 00:00:12 No. 00:01:01 http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch13/convince-recur.html <-- cool sicp tshirt in this book I'm reading 00:01:35 Yep, that's what they look like. 00:02:07 sweet 00:04:23 ok, trace doesn't seem to be defined in simply.scm. are there scheme implementations that implement trace, or an equivalent function? 00:05:09 The functionality of trace is defined in the same link I posted above. :-) 00:05:32 but, it seems to be implementation specific. it doesn't provide a scheme definition for this function. 00:06:15 -!- jkraemer_ [jkraemer@nat/google/x-qcltyxkebqccpexn] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:31 daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-185-252.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:31 I found this: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-1.6/guile-ref/Trace.html 00:08:19 let me ask #guile 00:09:08 Most Scheme systems have some system for tracing. 00:09:52 jkraemer_ [~jkraemer@66.102.14.16] has joined #scheme 00:10:24 -!- davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:27 I figured it out 00:48:48 Hello there. I'm a programming-aspirant. I have decent technical knowledge (unix, sql, etc.) but I don't know a single programming language (maybe you could say I "know" transact-sql but who cares?) 00:49:01 Is scheme a good language to start with? 00:50:21 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 00:50:25 I am interested in Lisp in general. I own the SICP book and I love and use emacs (so i know what defun and setq mean) 00:50:30 if you are just starting, most any language is as good as another. It's the text that'll make the difference 00:50:52 but since you are interested in scheme, try htdp 00:51:10 ,htdp 00:51:17 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:20 link in the title, but I'm told there is a newer version 00:51:26 ijp: I've had SICP sitting there waiting to be picked up for ages. 00:51:27 topic* 00:52:45 daat418: SICP is kind of hit and miss. Maybe you'll love it: I did, but lots of people claim it is "too mathy" 00:54:15 ijp: did you read the entire book? 00:54:18 it's your choice, but it's not like SICP is going to run away and join the circus 00:54:19 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 00:54:21 zacts: yes 00:54:30 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:54:40 three separate bursts. 1,2 / 3 / 4,5 00:54:46 ijp: cool! 00:54:47 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 00:54:52 I should probably do the same thing 00:55:10 which was your favorite chapter/section? 00:55:14 that's not a recommendation, btw, just what happened 00:55:34 ijp: yeah, but I feel like chunking would be good for the way my mind works 00:55:54 -!- daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-185-252.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55:55 and the way you've chunked it seems logical 00:56:24 ch1 is procedural abstraction ; ch2 is data abstraction those seem to go hand in hand 00:56:44 OOP is another way of thinking about things. then 4 and 5 kind of go together, @ least in my mind 00:58:06 (I haven't read past ch1 yet though, just speculating) 00:58:31 3 isn't really OOP, though part of it is 00:58:45 it's a weird "chapter", I'm not a great fan of it 01:03:07 daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-187-244.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:57 ijp: This recommended over SICP? (I have a cell signal now! Sorry if you already answered this...) 01:06:04 if you are really green, then yes 01:07:01 ijp: Why? :) 01:07:09 because that is its target audience 01:07:54 ijp: Same with SICP, no? 01:08:06 nominally yes, in practice, no 01:09:19 if you want to go the SICP route, no-ones going to stop you. It might work, it might not. try it and see 01:09:28 ijp: Maybe theres something i can read to get context ^ 01:12:02 thorougly biased, but http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/fffk-htdp-vs-sicp/ 01:12:38 maybe the folks on #racket can point to something more recent 01:13:49 there'll be another offering of Intro. to Systematic Program Design on coursera soon. 01:15:18 ijp: AFAIK, that's the canonical comparison. 01:15:39 Its target audience is educators, not students deciding between the two, though. 01:15:54 stamourv``: it was the only one I could remember offhand 01:16:05 daat418: I second ijp's recommendation. HTDP is excellent, especially if you're a programming beginner. 01:16:24 I've taught from it several times, and it's worked great. 01:16:35 2nd edition: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/index.html 01:16:46 I like the explanations in the 2nd edition better. 01:21:09 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.0.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:23:12 stamourv``: do you happen to know when the 2nd htdp book on imperative programming will be released, even if in beta form? 01:23:55 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD602AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:24:49 AFAIK, the second HTDP book is planned to be about components (how to design, e.g., libraries), not about imperative programming. 01:25:18 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:25:21 Unless Matthias changed his mind since last we talked about it, which would surprise me. 01:25:56 stamourv``: yes, I know that. but they were going to release a second book 01:26:06 along with that one, like a series of books 01:26:31 the 1st edition of htdp covers imperative programming, 2nd edition does not, because they are going to make another book for that 01:26:37 afaik 01:26:48 Could be. 01:27:28 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:27:33 I think the plan is to cover index-based programming (i.e. vectors, loops, etc.) at some point, but I'm not sure in which book that would go. 01:27:44 HTDP2e is not done yet, so it may end up there. 01:27:51 I read through (most of) the draft of "how to design classes", but I think that one is on indefinite hold 01:28:14 That's my understanding as well. 01:28:48 samth and David Van Horn designed a similar course to teach OO in Racket, which I really liked. Lemme find you a link. 01:28:54 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 01:29:26 cool. (note: I haven't read the htdp books yet, the hompage for 2ed just seemed to imply this) 01:30:42 ijp: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dvanhorn/pubs/tobin-hochstadt-van-horn-tfpie-2013.pdf 01:30:42 http://tinyurl.com/mtpq3fg 01:33:03 es [~estevocas@21.Red-95-122-81.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:03 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 01:33:12 stamourv``: Thank you :) 01:33:35 Ijp: thanks 01:33:42 ijp: Their work in progress book: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/course/cs2510h/book.html 01:33:42 ijp: :D 01:34:02 Source: https://github.com/dvanhorn/dpc 01:34:44 stamourv``: ijp: phone IRC is kinda... non-optimal. Not recommended. 01:35:19 I can believe that. 01:35:28 cool stamourv`` 01:38:42 I think my biggest problem, believe it or not, isn't a lack of praxis, resources, discipline, et al... 01:38:49 It's my ADHD. 01:39:00 -!- daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-187-244.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:20 *stamourv``* disappears. 01:40:02 daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-187-244.mycingular.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:17 Arrrfg 01:40:20 Arrgh 01:43:13 What I am effectively trying to do is find a course with some je ne sais quoi that will circumvent my inability to focus 01:46:56 Self-Medicating with Scheme 01:50:32 does scheme regex follow standard regex syntax? 01:51:23 properly, scheme does not have regexes 01:51:30 Define `Scheme regex' and `standard regex syntax'. 01:51:35 and what is the standards? 01:52:03 posix? PCRE? 01:53:25 -!- daat418 [~daat418@mobile-166-137-187-244.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:53:48 i guess my question is: does the regex support for say racket support posix or pcre 01:53:57 and which 01:58:39 "Regular expressions are specified as strings or byte strings, using the same pattern language as either the Unix utility egrep or Perl" 01:58:45 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/regexp.html?q=regex 01:59:01 hrm 01:59:03 xilo: I guess you should look at http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/regexp.html to see what it supports. 01:59:03 i looked 01:59:10 i didn't see that mentioned 01:59:21 perhaps you looked at the guide rather than the reference 01:59:25 yeah maybe 01:59:27 thanks 02:00:01 I'd be really surprised if it provides the "same pattern language" as "Perl" 02:00:20 *ijp* shrugs 02:00:42 i.e. all PCRE extensions which seems to be what xilo was wondering about, for whatever reason 02:01:20 apparently you can use libpcre though as well 02:01:28 zbigniew: just so i know what is/isn't possible 02:01:35 too lazy to read through the entire docs 02:01:50 and the format 02:01:51 oh so I had to do the work then, thanks 02:01:59 not the kind of laziness larry wall had in mind 02:02:17 i meant 02:02:59 there's a difference between the two how it handles. scrolling through some of that stuff makes my brain hurt. so if i know posix-like or pcre-like, then it's easy to know w/o hurting my head 02:03:02 oh, daat418 is gone 02:03:13 rudybot: teach us how to better crack wise 02:03:14 ijp: I never took apart an apple but thinkpads have great documentation you don't even need to crack the case until you replace the parts. 02:03:55 i'll bear that in mind 02:03:57 rudybot: i dunno if it's apple or 3rd party, but there's very detailed documentation about taking them apart 02:03:58 xilo: Cool. I'll give it a shot. I'll likely have more detailed questions for you later. How would you prefer I contact you? This irc? Twitter? Email? 02:04:06 xilo: okay, but unless you know what PCRE-specific syntax you might need, you probably don't need to care in the first place, I'd guess 02:04:35 trust me, don't give rudybot your email address 02:04:47 >mfw i replied to a bot 02:04:52 god dammit 02:04:55 i just can't read tonight 02:06:10 zbigniew: true but there are some very obvious differences between the two 02:08:09 not obvious enough, it would seem 02:08:27 pcre like support shorthands like \d 02:08:29 while posix doesn't 02:12:36 you're probably looking for http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/regexp.html#(part._regexp-syntax) and pregexp in particular then 02:12:56 b4283 [~b4283@114-137-255-69.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:05 yeah that made my brain hurt 02:13:09 written so obtuse 02:13:38 okay they follow posix 02:13:40 thanks 02:14:12 or w/e... i think i need to go to bed <_< 02:14:51 pregexp has \d. 02:19:43 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 02:33:50 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:10 jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has joined #scheme 02:39:25 daat418 [~daat418@c-67-180-90-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:54 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:02 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-164.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:48:26 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:58 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:53:53 Modius [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:54:49 Modius_ [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:55:16 -!- Modius_ [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56:16 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:58:08 -!- daat418 [~daat418@c-67-180-90-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 02:58:54 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:45 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 03:08:22 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD61F15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:08:29 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD602AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:14:52 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD61F15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:18:02 fridim_ [~fridim@184-8-248-180.dr01.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:26 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:32 -!- jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:37 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:31:36 jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has joined #scheme 03:31:57 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:01 -!- jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:01 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 03:33:09 andrei [~user@c-98-222-203-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:02 -!- cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:13:29 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:27:17 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Quit: El motor por excelencia http://www.europio.org/] 04:41:44 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@184-8-248-180.dr01.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:43:49 -!- andrei [~user@c-98-222-203-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:19 determinant [~ymf@2606:df00:3::2939:12fc] has joined #scheme 04:46:23 hello 04:46:56 momo-reina [~user@173.244.199.112] has joined #scheme 04:47:09 I'm a newbie to scheme, reading R5RS. I wanna know the difference between a "procedure" and so-called "syntax". 04:47:25 Since they're really alike. 04:49:09 eg. (if xxx xxx) is a syntax whereas it quite looks like a procedure. 04:49:27 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 04:50:36 Can anybody help me? thanks in advance. 04:51:02 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@21.Red-95-122-81.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:55 special forms are evaluated differently than procedures. 04:52:20 (if (condition?) then else) 04:52:54 that doesn't apply an if to whatever condition? evaluates to, a then, and an else 04:53:08 someone else will probably have a better explanation than mine, I'm still learning 04:54:53 also determinant I think the book the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs has an exercise regarding this very matter 04:55:26 zacts: what's (if (condition?) then else)? I haven't seen it. Can you give some examples? 04:55:34 I think the common example is something like (if #t (display "foo") (display "bar")). If 'if' were a procedure, that'd always display both, because of Scheme's evaluation rules. 04:56:02 (The arguments would all be evaluated before applying 'if' to them.) 04:56:07 zacts: thanks for recommendation. 04:57:02 fizzie: that's a very clever counter-example! 04:58:40 determinant: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html 05:00:27 zacts: thanks. 05:00:43 does anyone know if scheme48 will be updated to conform with r6rs? i noticed it's not on the implementations list on the r6rs site. 05:01:31 fizzie: thanks for the example. I regret that I've skipped the chapter talking about macro. 05:08:19 jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has joined #scheme 05:08:43 -!- jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:25 jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has joined #scheme 05:19:15 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 05:26:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:35:15 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:48 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 05:42:01 tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has joined #scheme 05:42:30 cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has joined #scheme 05:54:24 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:01:44 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:04:56 -!- determinant [~ymf@2606:df00:3::2939:12fc] has left #scheme 06:11:31 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 06:32:37 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:17 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-70.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:42:53 -!- jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:20 jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has joined #scheme 06:53:55 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:55:54 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-26-99.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:49 -!- momo-reina [~user@173.244.199.112] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:10:38 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:10:58 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 07:15:27 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:38 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:20:01 brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #scheme 07:21:32 -!- jvc [~jvc@125.39.68.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:53 why doesn't "000" work? 07:32:05 one negative aspect of scheme I'm noticing, is that keeping track of parentheses is difficult even with emacs. 07:32:39 It is a bit time consuming with large recursive procedures to get all the parens right, syntax errors seem to hapen often for me. 07:33:12 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 07:38:30 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:40:20 LostOne [~Unknown@70.57.39.30] has joined #scheme 07:41:17 -!- LostOne [~Unknown@70.57.39.30] has left #scheme 07:48:08 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:48:20 zacts: there are tools for that 07:49:10 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 07:49:45 zacts: install paredit, and you might like rainbow-delimeters for a visual aid 07:49:53 oh cool! I'll check it out 07:50:24 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-70.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:45 zacts: and i dont understand your "000" question 07:51:29 guile-2.0.9> "000" 07:51:33 I get an error 07:51:54 zacts: it scheme@(guile-user)> "000" 07:51:55 $1 = "000" 07:52:02 weird, just a sec 07:52:23 oops, i was typing before that 07:52:40 zacts: looks like you may have a bug 07:52:49 ah nevermind, it seems to be a problem with my simply.scm. 07:52:58 sorry 07:53:31 githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-57-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:54:24 zacts: i think paredit is essential for writing lisp. manipulating parenthesis manually is primative! 07:54:42 zacts: Also, do you have Geiser? 07:54:58 cool, thanks. geiser didn't do what I wanted, @ least while I'm studying sicp. 07:55:25 maybe once I do some real scheme projects, like guix or something, I will try it out again 07:55:34 should make it work, its good 07:55:49 what problem did you have? 07:55:54 I want to see all my expressions on the left evaluated on the interpreter on the right 07:55:57 not the echo area 07:56:02 probably a variable I can tune 07:56:19 without geiser it does what I want 07:57:15 look at geiser cheat sheat 08:00:04 c-u c-x c-e 08:00:06 cool 08:00:20 I'll give geiser another try 08:01:13 hmm, that evals to current buffer atleast 08:01:19 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:02:59 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 08:03:04 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:14 hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-102-128.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #scheme 08:06:00 hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #scheme 08:07:42 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-102-128.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:09:38 hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #scheme 08:09:38 hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #scheme 08:10:41 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:10:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-103-165.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:11:09 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 08:11:58 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:20 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 08:29:22 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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Shrug. 18:16:45 imo sicp is confusing a *complete* begginer 18:17:16 s/a /for a/ 18:17:57 meh, I like SICP 18:17:58 Daat418: as I said yesterday, if you've already made up your mind to do SICP, that's fine. Go forth with my blessing. I just don't think it's helpful to keep asking the same question until you get an answer that you like. 18:18:02 I think the language is clear 18:18:07 I don't know HtDP, though 18:18:11 fds: so, ultimately, it is a question of cynicism regarding the intelligence of the average person. 18:18:38 i like to but it assume you already know something, :) 18:18:54 ijp: It's been rolling around my head - I can't help it :p 18:19:36 each address a different level, both are the best imo 18:20:26 I'm ADHD so I have to be 100% sure of something that takes time and commitment before I am able to invest ANY time and commitment 18:20:40 ijp: It's a personal problem, thank you for tolerating me :p 18:22:38 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@21.Red-95-122-81.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:25:49 Daat418: Doesn't that mean you can't make *any* research whatsoever on your own? 18:26:24 Err 18:26:29 s/Doesn't/Does 18:30:04 add^_: oh no, I've read a bunch of stuff on the very subject of comparison 18:30:12 Daat418: Not necessarily intelligence, but maybe preparedness. It's not cynical to recommend a book to a beginner which lays out the fundamentals more clearly (although I think SICP and HtDP are quite different books, though I've only read SICP). Anyway, it sounds like other people have already given you better answers than I could. 18:30:16 Then just go for it :-) 18:30:26 add^_: I am well aware of the opinions of even university professors on the subject of sicp 18:30:38 add^_: many considered it "too hard" 18:30:48 add^_: that is different than what #scheme thinks 18:31:27 Well, their loss 18:31:34 add^_: I've learned - through my own experience - that the opinion of a smart and dedicated community can matter a great deal more than anyone elses 18:32:57 :-) 18:33:19 -!- Daat418 [~user@c-67-180-90-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:34:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:07 SeySayux_ [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has joined #scheme 18:51:36 taylanub [~taylanub@85.100.235.227] has joined #scheme 18:53:28 -!- SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:47 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host188-32-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:35 tcsc [~tcsc@c-71-192-176-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:31 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-70.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:02:02 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-164-53.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:02:24 -!- SeySayux_ is now known as SeySayux 19:05:13 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 19:23:48 es [~estevocas@46.Red-79-153-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:23:48 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 19:28:40 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:29:53 jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.239] has joined #scheme 19:33:04 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 19:37:09 -!- jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:33 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@46.Red-79-153-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:55:37 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 20:00:52 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.0.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:05:48 carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:18:56 userzxcvasdf [~neutral_a@c656847C1.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #scheme 20:21:16 trusktr [~trusktr@173-10-14-122-BusName-stockton.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:18 simply scheme is cool as an intro to sicp concepts 20:22:22 imho 20:22:32 I like simply scheme, I'm almost done with it 20:22:47 it doesn't contain any of the math in SICP though 20:27:39 cosmez_ [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has joined #scheme 20:28:40 zacts: I don't know if you read the Racket mailing list, but there's a good recent thread (http://www.mail-archive.com/users@racket-lang.org/msg18688.html) about where to learn advanced Racket skills, including both references to books and some thoughts on why and when reading books isn't enough, and what else to do to go beyond them. 20:29:20 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 20:29:29 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:36:49 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:51 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Quit: El motor por excelencia http://www.europio.org/] 20:42:01 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:52 cool carleastlund 20:55:34 ijp` [~user@host86-141-182-40.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:57:00 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD61F15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:58:21 -!- ijp [~user@host109-158-225-221.range109-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:58:48 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 21:11:10 I almost have some simply scheme code to paste, but for people who don't care to see a solution to one of the projects. 21:12:48 but first if anyone can figure out why evaluating "000" doesn't work when I load http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/downloads/simply/simply.scm that would be sweet 21:12:57 s/when/after/ 21:13:04 guile-2.0.9 21:15:46 what do you mean by "doesn't work" 21:16:17 ERROR: In procedure exact?: 21:16:18 ERROR: In procedure exact?: Wrong type argument in position 1: "000" 21:16:36 sorry, 'doesn't work' questions are not the best 21:16:42 of course "000" is not a number 21:17:10 does the file redefine exact? 21:17:24 no, it does not 21:17:30 so, then this is expected behaviour 21:17:51 zacts: so do by `evaluating "000" doesn't work`, did you evaluate just "000", or did you evaluate something like (exact? "000"), or what? 21:18:17 s/so do by/so do you mean by/, I think I got lost in my own sentence structure somewhere. 21:18:19 guile-2.0.9> "000" 21:18:43 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD61F15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:18:53 also, this file uses functions that aren't in guile 21:19:34 ah scratch that, my bda 21:19:35 bad 21:20:34 the reason I want to know why evaluating "000" is throwing an error, is because my paste relies upon evaluating "000" to work. 21:22:07 the problem is this file is redefining a lot of procedures so that it can treat strings as numbers 21:22:12 procedures which guile uses 21:22:56 at least, I think that's the problem 21:23:05 (load "scheme/simply/simply.scm") 21:23:05 (define (number-name number) 21:23:05 (let ((names '(thousand million billion trillion quadrillion 21:23:05 quintillion sextillion septillion octillion 21:23:08 nonillion decillion))) 21:23:11 (number-name-helper (chunk number) names))) 21:23:14 (define (chunk number) 21:23:17 (if (<= (count number) 3) 21:23:20 number 21:23:23 (sentence (chunk (bl (bl (bl number)))) 21:23:26 please use a pastebin 21:23:26 (word (last (bl (bl number))) 21:23:32 (last (bl number)) 21:23:32 (last number))))) 21:23:35 (define (number-name-helper chunk names) 21:23:40 (reverse (merge-chunk chunk names))) 21:23:43 (define (merge-chunk chunk names) ;; note: doesn't handle larger numbers than names 21:23:46 (if (= (count chunk) 1) 21:23:48 (reverse (name-chunk (last chunk))) 21:23:52 (sentence (reverse (name-chunk (last chunk))) (first names) 21:23:55 (merge-chunk (bl chunk) (bf names))))) 21:23:59 (sentence (reverse (name-chunk (last chunk))) (first names) 21:24:02 (merge-chunk (bl chunk) (bf names))) 21:24:02 (define (name-chunk chunk) 21:24:05 (cond ((= (count chunk) '3) 21:24:08 (if (equal? chunk "000") 21:24:12 '() 21:24:15 (sentence (chunk-num-identity chunk) 'hundred (name-chunk (bf chunk))))) 21:24:18 ((= (count chunk) '2) 21:24:20 (cond ((equal? (first chunk) '9) 21:24:23 (sentence 'ninety (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:26 ((equal? (first chunk) '8) 21:24:30 (sentence 'eighty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:33 ((equal? (first chunk) '7) 21:24:36 (sentence 'seventy (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:39 ((equal? (first chunk) '6) 21:24:42 (sentence 'sixty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:45 ((equal? (first chunk) '5) 21:24:48 (sentence 'fifty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:51 ((equal? (first chunk) '4) 21:24:54 (sentence 'fourty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:24:56 any ops on? 21:24:58 ((equal? (first chunk) '3) 21:25:01 (sentence 'thirty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:25:04 ((equal? (first chunk) '2) 21:25:07 (sentence 'twenty (name-chunk (bf chunk)))) 21:25:10 ((equal? (first chunk) '1) 21:25:13 (cond ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '9) 21:25:17 (sentence 'ninteen)) 21:25:18 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '8) 21:25:21 (sentence 'eighteen)) 21:25:24 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '7) 21:25:28 (sentence 'seventeen)) 21:25:31 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '6) 21:25:34 (sentence 'sixteen)) 21:25:37 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '5) 21:25:40 (sentence 'fifteen)) 21:25:44 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '4) 21:25:47 (sentence 'fourteen)) 21:25:47 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '3) 21:25:51 (sentence 'thirteen)) 21:25:53 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '2) 21:25:56 (sentence 'twelve)) 21:26:00 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '1) 21:26:03 (sentence 'eleven)) 21:26:06 Ugh, I wish clients or whatever that throttle throughput would just cut the rest of it off rather than slowly spamming a channel for minutes on end. 21:26:06 ((equal? (first (bf chunk)) '0) 21:26:09 '()) 21:26:12 (else (sentence 'ten)))))) 21:26:16 (else 21:26:18 (sentence (chunk-num-identity chunk))))) 21:26:21 (define (chunk-num-identity chunk) 21:26:24 (cond ((equal? (first chunk) '9) 21:26:28 'nine) 21:26:31 ((equal? (first chunk) '8) 21:26:33 'eight) 21:26:36 ((equal? (first chunk) '7) 21:26:39 'seven) 21:26:42 ((equal? (first chunk) '6) 21:26:45 erry [erry@freenode/staff/gms-slayer/erry] has joined #scheme 21:26:45 'six) 21:26:48 ((equal? (first chunk) '5) 21:26:51 'five) 21:26:54 ((equal? (first chunk) '4) 21:26:57 'four) 21:27:00 ((equal? (first chunk) '3) 21:27:04 'three) 21:27:07 ((equal? (first chunk) '2) 21:27:07 godfrey383 [~godfrey38@61-56-137-230-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #scheme 21:27:10 'two) 21:27:13 ((equal? (first chunk) '1) 21:27:17 'one) 21:27:18 (else '()))) 21:27:21 (number-name 10857121) 21:27:24 (number-name 1000999999) 21:27:28 (load "scheme/simply/simply.scm") 21:27:31 (define (number-name number) 21:27:34 (let ((names '(thousand million billion trillion quadrillion 21:27:37 quintillion sextillion septillion octillion 21:27:40 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o erry 21:27:40 nonillion decillion))) 21:27:44 (number-name-helper (chunk number) names))) 21:27:47 (define (chunk number) 21:27:47 (if (<= (count number) 3) 21:27:51 number 21:27:54 (sentence (chunk (bl (bl (bl number)))) 21:27:56 -!- erry has set mode +q $a:zacts 21:27:59 -!- erry has set mode -o erry 21:28:55 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:59 erry: thanks, it was probably just a client malfunction on his end 21:29:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o erry 21:29:17 -!- erry has set mode -q $a:zacts 21:29:18 -!- erry has set mode -o erry 21:29:19 no problem 21:31:36 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 21:31:50 ugh. sorry guys 21:32:15 accidentally pasted my paste instead of my pastebin link 21:32:27 I'm not used to erc, irssi warns if you accidentally do this 21:32:39 next time I'll paste into a blank buffer first 21:32:39 erc should 21:32:44 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #scheme 21:32:54 shift+enter in xterm+ssh+erc 21:33:07 I guess it somehow directly pasted into erc somehow 21:33:19 -!- cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:57 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD61F15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:34:09 -!- cosmez_ [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:09 anyway, sorry about that. let me repaste my pastebin. http://paste.lisp.org/display/138222 21:34:53 the problem only occurs after callling (string-are-numbers #t) 21:36:36 -!- davexunit [~user@209-6-42-136.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:19 the problem being that guile is doing $something in the repl that involves checking exactness, and exact? does not get rebound to take into account these new string number things 21:37:38 cosmez [~kib0@200.92.100.68] has joined #scheme 21:38:27 I also think it doesn't clean up properly, since the problem doesn't go away if you eval (strings-are-numbers #f) 21:44:23 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 21:48:11 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 21:48:24 Anyone know if it is possible to implement eq and atom operators with lambda and how? 21:49:39 (lambda (x y) (eq? x y)) 21:50:07 almost certainly, but the answer isn't going to be pretty 21:50:47 theseb: if you mean church-encoding your datatypes and still using eq?, it's certainly possible, but it'd be about the most contorted and unnatural thing you'd ever bothered to write. 21:51:53 -!- userzxcvasdf [~neutral_a@c656847C1.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:16 carleastlund: http://norvig.com/lispy.html <-- Norvig claims here that quote, if, set!, define, begin and lambda are enough to implement lisp 21:52:47 theseb: Perhaps he doesn't consider eq? essential to lisp? 21:52:55 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:40 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:51 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 21:53:57 set!, begin and define in lisp? 21:54:31 The article clarifies he means the Scheme dialect of Lisp. 21:54:37 zacts: I double checked it wasn't an optimiser problem, so I'm fairly certain of my claim that it's internal-mucking 21:54:41 But I'm interested to see how he'd implement, say, cons. 21:54:42 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:54:59 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:55:03 carleastlund: me too 21:55:34 zacts: I'm not going to look any more though, maybe bring it up on the mailing list 21:55:41 ok, thanks 21:56:01 Oh. No, the list you posted is the list of special forms, not the list of all the primitives. He also has to implement all the primitives like + and < and equal? and eq? and cons outside of Scheme. 21:56:28 They're just not treated _syntactically_ special by the compiler. 21:57:08 (search that page for the string "def add_globals" for where he implements the primitives) 21:58:40 carleastlund: yea i saw that...i was pissed becaused I wanted to see him implement all those primitives with just the 6 special forms 21:59:15 theseb: wait, so you already knew he couldn't when you asked? 22:00:10 + and < are simple, try call-with-values or call-with-current-continuation :) 22:01:00 carleastlund: i didn't know until you told me just now 22:01:25 carleastlund: i was confused why he did what he did when he just finished saying "Hey 6 special forms are enough!!!" 22:01:37 a lot of people separate language and runtime 22:01:59 theseb: guess you have to be careful what you interpret from the phrase "special form". Sounds like he perhaps should have defined his term so as not to mislead. 22:02:03 carleastlund: if I may ask......what is the minimal *Scheme* I can implement so that i can then implement the REST in that minimal scheme? 22:02:14 carleastlund: yes i realize lambda cal is "sufficient" 22:02:25 ddp [~ddp@71-83-115-6.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:02:33 carleastlund: maybe i should specificy....."minimal Scheme" that one can *sanely* implement rest of Scheme 22:02:57 theseb: what is "Scheme" to you? 22:03:39 This depends on if you're implementing R5RS, R6RS, R7RS, even bigger languages that some might still call "Scheme", or maybe some imaginary ideal subset of Scheme. 22:03:45 asumu: good question....R5RS is good starting point i guess 22:04:06 -!- ddp [~ddp@71-83-115-6.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:11 is IO essential to your notion of a minimal programming language? 22:04:16 theseb: depends on which Scheme standard you mean. And what you mean by "sanely". For instance, most church encoding using lambda isn't going to give you the performance Scheme should have, unless you build up a binary encoding using lambda, at which point the elegance of Church encoding is lost. It's as meaningful as saying "you could write it in assembly", sure, but who cares. 22:04:33 if yes, then you are going to need to include IO primitives 22:04:48 otherwise how could you implement READ 22:05:57 carleastlund: i don't care about performance but implementing scheme in pure lambda calculus is too extreme in the other direction...i guess i want something in between 22:07:07 theseb: just to be clear, I'm not talking about performance in the sense of how well it benchmarks, I'm talking about whether you can count on, say, string? being an O(1) operation or not. 22:07:48 carleastlund: i think i know what you mean...i've debated foregoing strings and just making them ascii integers to be cute but that may be a bit heavy 22:07:53 of course, if you are a haskeller, you wave your arms and say that you dont' need IO, only the ability to compose actions that when interpreted at runtime perform IO :) 22:08:18 which is the same thing, but helps them sleep 22:09:51 theseb: anyway, what's "minimal" in a language depends on a lot. I wouldn't know for R5RS. I would say the minimal for an interesting Scheme-like language worth writing and investigating would probably be very close to what's on that Lispy page you posted. 22:10:10 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:10:39 carleastlund: ok..thanks for your help 22:22:27 gcartier [~gcartier@24.201.136.10] has joined #scheme 22:27:21 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 22:31:55 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:03 es [~estevocas@46.Red-79-153-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:03 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 22:36:52 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: brb?] 22:37:33 dsevilla [~user@77.211.153.182] has joined #scheme 22:37:55 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:48 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 22:42:26 -!- dsevilla [~user@77.211.153.182] has left #scheme 22:44:07 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-71-192-176-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 22:44:17 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:45:51 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:49:25 ijp` [~user@host81-155-30-199.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:52:00 -!- ijp [~user@host86-141-182-40.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:52:05 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 22:55:40 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:56:03 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 22:57:59 defanor [~d@ppp91-77-123-64.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:59:49 -!- defanor_ [~d@ppp91-77-138-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00:26 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-28-76.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:04:51 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@24.201.136.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:49 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:06 -!- agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33:42 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@173-10-14-122-BusName-stockton.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:35 b4283 [~b4283@114-137-255-69.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:17 agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:40 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 23:49:57 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@63-230-0-138.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]