00:00:06 that's not true 00:00:36 in Poland it takes 4-6 hours (depending on luck) to make 150 km by train :D 00:01:47 Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 00:02:21 they are trying their best to make it better but... if You will be coming here before the year 2020, there proably is no hope in travelling faster by train. 00:03:26 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 00:03:32 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:54 Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:44 why is that? is there some train chokages? 00:06:11 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:52 would try to answer but finding what chokages means isn't as easy as one could think.. 00:06:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:34 um, i've found it in dictionary too lol. going to find another word 00:07:56 jammings maybe 00:08:11 traffic binds 00:08:23 trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:28 or jam-ups 00:08:37 defanor: rather breaks caused by "economic" reasons. 00:08:50 oh 00:10:03 defanor: the real problem is that probably none knows the real reason, like on many other things right now. But we are used to grumbling. 00:11:09 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:13:55 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:02 i would hope to come before 2020 but it is hard to say having a family 00:18:06 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:18:42 anxt: If You would be visiting Cracow instead/beyond Warsaw, be sure to visit me (preferably writting a bit earlier), lately didn't have many American (?) visitors. 00:25:09 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@avb160.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #scheme 00:25:30 pumpkin360 [~main@avb160.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 00:28:21 not sure when, or if mrs anxt would go. 00:28:27 well i am sure she would go. 00:28:41 but hopefully yes! 00:40:39 :) 00:42:51 R7RS-small question 00:43:39 when raising a secondary exception, from a non-continuable exception not having its exception handler being exited via continuation, do you call the same exception handler again, or do you call the one above it? 00:44:07 sound cool. 00:44:13 *sounds. 00:44:16 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 00:45:17 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:37 (to me it seems to make more sense to call the exception handler above it, and the R7RS-small spec's text doesn't seem too clear about it...) 00:49:11 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:23 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:49:41 tolk [~user@host132.190-138-224.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 00:57:49 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:00 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:58 are Guile's GC-related C functions thread-safe? 01:09:29 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #scheme 01:10:09 btw, same question about SCM-construction-related functions 01:10:19 tabemann, in answer to a question last night: to implement LETREC you need more than just LAMBDA -- you also need SET!. 01:11:09 (letrec ((x E) (y F)) B) = (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (let ((x0 E) (y0 E)) (set! x x0) (set! y y0) (let () B))) 01:11:41 Or, for a cuter expansion which is easily expressed with SYNTAX-RULES: 01:12:16 I'm probably not going to implement let/let*/letrec/letrec* with lambda anyways, as I've got a more efficient implementation that doesn't use it, but I was just wondering 01:12:28 (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (let ((x (let ((v E)) (lambda () (set! x v)))) (y (let ((v F)) (lambda () (set! y v))))) (x) (y)) (let () B)) 01:16:53 found answer to my question: looks like they are, except of some mutation-related ones: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Multi_002dThreading.html 01:16:53 http://tinyurl.com/k8h8v2q 01:18:05 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:19:11 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #scheme 01:20:24 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:23:30 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:23:57 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 01:24:58 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:26:53 jcowan_ [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:27:04 -!- jcowan_ [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has left #scheme 01:27:18 will repl save the values counted if I distract it during counting 01:27:20 ? 01:28:10 Try and see 01:28:14 -!- tabemann [~travisb@adsl-68-254-170-180.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:30 10 minutes of wasted time.. not so much yet. 01:28:42 it does not. 01:28:48 :S 01:28:55 Life in the stupid lane.... 01:36:03 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:58 I'm rebuilding my suite of Schemes on 64-bit Linux for the first time. 01:37:17 Alas, some of them won't build properly, especially the "I must be recursively built" ones. 01:37:35 I survived building Guile, which is the Great Pain of Space. 01:37:49 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:39:57 tabemann [~travisb@adsl-68-254-175-64.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:41 good luck. 01:47:18 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #scheme 01:52:49 -!- m4burns_ is now known as m4burns 01:54:14 -!- mario-goulart [~user@email.parenteses.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:26 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:58:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:58:57 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 02:00:02 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:52 mario-goulart [~user@email.parenteses.org] has joined #scheme 02:05:51 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 02:09:29 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 02:10:14 lol 02:10:16 pain! 02:10:18 great!! 02:10:25 guile web framework looks sikz0r 02:10:29 artanis 02:10:38 10,000 concurrent users! 02:10:56 Is sikz0r good? 02:12:51 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 02:13:51 Gavino... 02:14:26 Riastradh: !! how are you man? 02:15:03 sikz0r is the l33t hipster c00l way fo saying awesome 02:15:14 "sick!" is the 80s term 02:15:25 Im trying to stay with the times. 02:15:33 still wont buy apple products 02:15:58 what's the difference between _cpointer and _pointer in racket ffi 02:16:47 It's like the difference between a C shell and a shell. One is a useless trinket you find by the seaside; the other is a means of interacting with the operating system! 02:17:44 Riastradh: what do you think of www.cat-v.org ? 02:18:01 Riastradh: still doesn't answer the question 02:18:38 theseb [d807e14e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.7.225.78] has joined #scheme 02:18:58 xilo, sorry, it was a silly joke. 02:19:04 sounds like a racket manual question, I don't know answer 02:19:35 yeah i looked couldn't find much 02:20:02 Looks like _pointer is untyped and _cpointer is typed. 02:20:20 ah 02:20:39 Anyone heard of project to auto-port emacs to guile (scheme)? That seems awesome if they could pull it off....to have a clean Scheme based emacs 02:20:51 That is, _pointer corresponds with `void *' or `char *' and (_cpointer T) corresponds with `T *'. 02:21:08 gotcha thanks 02:21:13 Anyone heard of project to auto-port emacs to guile (scheme)? That seems awesome if they could pull it off....to have a clean Scheme based emacs 02:21:23 theseb, vaguely heard things about that over the years, but nothing definite. For what it's worth, there already is an Emacs clone written in Scheme, called Edwin. 02:21:25 theseb: double paste... 02:21:43 xilo: i'll stop 02:22:25 Riastradh: yes but this will have ALL the bennies since the autotranslation should be perfect 02:22:26 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:22:40 Riastradh: i'll check out Edwin nevertheless thanks 02:23:24 Bennies? 02:23:45 No, autotranslation will not be perfect... It will invariably require a lot of manual work to make the result work well. 02:25:32 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 02:27:24 benefits, Riastradh 02:29:37 Riastradh: the dynamic scope to lexical scope conversion may be tricky but with a sophisticated enough translater I don't see why it can't be perfect 02:29:45 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 02:32:16 Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #scheme 02:36:12 -!- Gooder [~user@68.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:24 theseb: It can't ever be perfect. A conservative translator is possible, yes, but it will never catch them all. 02:37:46 http://www-pu.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/users/sperber/papers/dynamic-scope-analysis.pdf <-- "Down with Emacs Lisp" 02:37:50 , 02:40:39 jcowan: there you go! 02:40:51 jcowan: nice paper on the conversion...they seem pretty confident 02:41:27 They're confident their algorithm is safe, yes; it never converts a dynamic variable to a lexical variable in a way that hoses the code. 02:41:43 That's not the same as saying it converts every dynamic variable that could safely be converted if they knew everything. 02:46:10 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:51:54 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:52:01 -!- theseb [d807e14e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.7.225.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:52:15 Gooder`` [~user@45.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined 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[~estevocas@21.Red-95-122-81.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:08 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 04:12:46 little question 04:13:08 in an exception handler, is another exception to be raised if the exception returns a different number of arguments from 1 (in R7RS-small)? 04:14:08 forget that 04:27:42 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:32:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:33:50 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:44 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-217.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:58 scheme and web site creation 04:51:06 who here runs an e commerce site on scheme? 05:01:54 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@21.Red-95-122-81.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:05:25 -!- tabemann 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10:18:40 alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 10:19:21 lo 10:43:18 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:48:01 alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 10:59:21 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:03 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6432B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:03:36 Guest49321 [~maple@125.71.200.14] has joined #scheme 11:03:56 -!- Guest49321 [~maple@125.71.200.14] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:44 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14:11 so far scheme is making me not like other languages quite so much. 11:14:56 alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 11:28:37 trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:29:46 -!- Cromulent 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[~user@host109-158-225-221.range109-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:15:33 -!- ijp [~user@host81-147-188-99.range81-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:53 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 17:17:43 -!- b4283 [~b4283@223-138-197-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:56 using ffi say have a function that returns 0 for false/1 for true. how would i setup the ffi definition to return #f or #t instead 17:34:01 xilo: I wouldn't bother: write a wrapper. (define (my-function) (= 1 (%my-function))) 17:34:14 %my-function being the low-level FFI function. 17:34:23 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:03 pjb: nvm. i just had to change the return type to _bool 17:35:05 xilo: in any case, you have other things to cater to in the lisp world, such as converting return codes to lisp errors, other type conversions, etc. 17:35:06 lol 17:35:22 well, if your ffi system allow it, of course. 17:35:31 ah i didn't specify 17:35:34 was using racket 17:38:44 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD9379C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:14 agumonkey [~agu@35.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:17 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 17:46:58 rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 17:54:00 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:11 -!- pnkfelix 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a good example of a function that returns a different number of values depending on its parameters? 20:53:31 apply :P 20:54:06 or any of those cheeky call-with functions 20:54:24 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 20:54:50 I don't have a good first-order example 20:55:07 (equa2 a b c) --> 0 solution, 1 solution or 2 solutions in R. 20:55:35 But granted it's not necessarily a good design choice. It might be better to return a list in this case. 20:56:28 or perhaps to always return two complex results 20:58:41 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.234] has joined #scheme 21:01:58 trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:35 Other than a higher order function that dispatches to whatever the user provides, a function should pretty much always return the same number of values. It's incredibly annoying to use functions that alternate how many values they return. 21:09:00 just asking because it seems impossible to get LLVM to generate generic arbitrary number of return values code (it can handle multiple values, but only for a fixed number of parameters for any one call) 21:09:52 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:13:18 So you mean it's hard to generate code for (apply values x)? 21:13:23 carleastlund: yes: 1 21:14:00 Riastradh: it seems to be impossible to specify this directly in llvm ir (unless you always bundle all returned values into some structure, return that, then un-bundle it) 21:15:19 There's that too, zbigniew, but I'll admit I've grown fond of multiple values when there's just two or three things to return and something like define-values (which I think is not standard Scheme, but I haven't read R6+ closely) is a convenient way to "patern-match". 21:15:37 pattern* 21:16:20 MV return is useful if there's a small fixed number of positionally return values, yes 21:18:15 carleastlund: my preference is CPS or 'matchable' in lieu of MV return, but opinions differ 21:18:39 I like the idea of MV return, purely on grounds of symmetry with multi-value call 21:18:50 Why should functions be allowed to take any number of arguments, but return only one value? 21:18:51 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:18:58 Really I wish Scheme had been designed with pattern matching from the get-go, with binders as an expansion position, so we wouldn't have to ask about this to begin with. 21:20:15 LeoNerd: because, continuations aren't functions, contrary to popular belief 21:21:34 ijp: but he didn't say anything about continuations. 21:21:39 carleastlund: I consider foof's match.scm to be canonical at this point, even if it's not defined in a standard 21:22:12 carleastlund: that's where this idea comes from doesn't it? 21:22:29 ijp: But it's not what LeoNerd said, so it doesn't constitute a refutation of his point. 21:22:55 ijp: My idea is purely the outward feel of the language design. 21:23:05 Why should values going in to a function be different from values coming out? 21:23:32 that's about as useful a reason as "why shouldn't they?" 21:24:14 as for design, we don't treat them the same 21:24:40 Although my refutation would be that multiple values going in to a function is convenient, easy to use, and pretty much all Scheme code would be unnatural without it. Whereas multiple values tends to cause at least as many problems as it solves, even if used only sparingly in the best possible situations. 21:24:47 LeoNerd: this leads to the question, why shouldn't (+ (values 1 2 3)) evaluate to 6? 21:25:15 I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't. Seems sensible to me 21:25:39 -!- carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 21:25:48 because now we can't nonlocally reason about code like (lambda (f) (g (f))) 21:26:53 what do we know about this? how many arguments does g take? 21:27:02 at least one :) 21:27:08 well, not even that.. 21:27:14 Worse, consider (f (g) (h)). Which arguments come from G and which arguments come from H? 21:27:32 Riastradh: if multiple values are fused, does it matter where they come from? 21:27:38 this is similar to why people object to having keywords be first class 21:28:12 Yes, ecraven, because I'm trying to understand why a bug happened and I want it to be easy to determine a small set o fcode paths I have to follow! 21:28:15 set of code paths 21:28:42 what's the r7rs take on wrong numbers of MV? still unspecified? 21:28:57 that's one way in which we treat MV differently from function arguments 21:29:14 What's that, ijp? 21:29:26 Riastradh: e.g. (+ (values 1 2) 3) 21:29:36 ecraven: this isn't Forth, and even Forthers have conventions to avoid that sort of thing 21:29:44 in some schemes, giving the wrong number of arguments to a function is an error, but they have the CL behaviour for MV 21:29:48 Bug, just like (cos 1 2). 21:30:28 where they truncate, or in the less than case, fill it with #f 21:30:38 Yeah, that's silly. 21:31:31 lua does this too, but at least they are consistent and do it for function arguments 21:31:47 (assuming you buy into call/return symmetry) 21:34:28 page 52 of r7rs-draft-9 doesn't say anything about a multiple return value mismatch 21:35:26 good, I'd rather it say nothing than get that ^^ behaviour 21:35:52 well, shouldn't it at *least* say the behaviour is undefined? (if not an error)? 21:41:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-176.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:42:57 ecraven: it can do that if it wants, but in any case lack of a definition is the definition of undefined :) 21:43:58 ijp: but it shows a conscious decision, not just an oversight :) 21:45:34 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:39 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:35 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD602AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:59:47 davexunit [~user@c-71-232-35-199.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:28 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:20 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:48:40 agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:15 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 22:50:46 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:49 defanor_ [~d@ppp91-77-138-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:58:38 -!- defanor [~d@ppp91-77-113-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:06 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:00:38 -!- jkraemer [jkraemer@nat/google/x-lccbuadbxxmjdfto] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@117.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:15 jkraemer [~jkraemer@66.102.14.16] has joined #scheme 23:05:19 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 23:05:33 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:29:09 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD602AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:35 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:34 -!- jkraemer [~jkraemer@66.102.14.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:33:42 jkraemer_ [jkraemer@nat/google/x-qcltyxkebqccpexn] has joined #scheme 23:39:42 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 23:48:02 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:56 I want to get an SICP t-shirt 23:58:28 Ask Gerry; he has a small number left, I think. 23:58:38 oh really? cool!