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joined #scheme 21:18:47 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:19:19 zacts: you around? 21:21:08 hey 21:22:40 zacts, arubin, pumpkin360: you were all around for the discussion a few days ago about Scheme and the Art of Programming, actually. I got word back from Dan Friedman, he's working on getting something released electronically. I don't know when it'll be available, but it's in the works. 21:22:59 oh sweet! 21:23:18 boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f718d8a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:33 carleastlund: Thanks! 21:27:06 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:28:33 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 21:31:04 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: reboot] 21:37:32 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:39:14 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 21:49:15 peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-123-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #scheme 22:00:13 -!- boycottg00gle is now known as angie` 22:00:37 -!- angie` is now known as boycottg00gle 22:07:10 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60F98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:09:16 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60F98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:10:31 defanor [~d@ppp91-77-126-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:18:30 -!- boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f718d8a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:52 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:21 zepylos [~zepylos@adsl-98-85-27-21.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:34:43 -!- defanor [~d@ppp91-77-126-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:17 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:50:28 jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has joined #scheme 22:53:32 defanor [~d@ppp91-77-116-215.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 22:53:40 trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:54:06 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:03 -!- karswell [~user@87.115.218.125] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:56:09 karswell` [~user@87.113.254.15] has joined #scheme 23:00:05 Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 23:02:48 -!- xilo [~xilo@107-209-248-232.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:50 -!- zepylos [~zepylos@adsl-98-85-27-21.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:03:43 xilo [~xilo@107-209-248-232.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:54 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60F98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:33 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:07:42 Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 23:07:50 http://bpaste.net/show/116783/ 23:08:32 If anybody has to much time - comments on my merge-sort in scheme are welcome, especially critical ones 23:10:24 merge itself might be more efficient on a non-TCMC implementation, done reversed 23:11:28 And also you probably want to allow users to pass in the comparison operator 23:12:11 LeoNerd: Yes. That is a goog idea. 23:12:17 LeoNerd: thanks :) 23:12:59 LeoNerd: But the one I made preseves the O(nlogn) complexity I guess? 23:13:19 LeoNerd: and what is TCMC ? 23:13:39 tailcall-modulo-cons 23:13:56 The idea that (cons FOO BAR) can turn one of FOO or BAR into a tailcall 23:14:38 Under such a scheme, a function (thing (....) ..... (cons another (thing ...))) which is a popular way to build lists, becomes a tail-recursive function 23:14:53 Without TCMC that isn't a tailcall, so it's less efficient 23:15:32 LeoNerd: is this done by making cons a macro? Or if I do (define my-cons cons), would (my-cons FOO BAR) have the same property? 23:15:50 Usually not 23:16:07 It can't be done as a macro; it's an interpreter-internals thing 23:16:35 LeoNerd: Well, I was imagine doing it as a macro based on a primitive cons operation that takes a thunk as one of its arguments. 23:17:02 But certainly you can do it by making cons a special form, too. 23:17:32 Well.. possibly. Would still require some internal hackery though 23:17:41 Either set-cdr! or some special internal form 23:17:58 Well, certainly the primitive would need to be implemented. 23:20:15 tabemann [~travisb@adsl-76-199-152-119.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:56 it's correct that one can completely and correctly implement syntax-rules in terms of syntax-case? 23:22:44 Yes. 23:22:58 good 23:23:10 even great. :) 23:23:18 (define-syntax syntax-rules (syntax-rules () ((syntax-rules (literal ...) rule ...) (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (literal ...) rule ...] 23:23:56 tabemann: if you're implementing a macro system with syntax-case, I suggest making syntax-case a derived form; you can make primitive forms that don't do pattern matching, and it should make your life a lot simpler. 23:24:24 Heh.. I just implemented syntax-rules natively :P 23:24:31 That works too. :) 23:24:34 But then so far I'm just aiming at r5 23:24:46 I'm targeting R5RS, but from reading about syntax-rules versus syntax-case, I'd like to support syntax-case too... 23:25:37 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:26:12 also, are there any SRFIs pertaining to exception handling (i.e. error handling, not with continuations) meant for R5RS? 23:26:30 because I'm wondering about how to handle VM-triggered error conditions and yet have them be able to be caught from within Scheme 23:26:54 -!- carleastlund [~carleastl@209.6.40.238] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 23:26:54 what simple (can be O(n^2)) sort is nice to implement in scheme ? Trying select sort but doesn't appear to be so nice to implement without mutation 23:26:55 Yes. 23:26:56 ? 23:27:24 Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 23:27:28 merge sort is nice to implement without mutation (that's what GHC Haskell uses) 23:27:32 pumpkin360, selection sort, insertion sort, quick sort, and merge sort can all be done nice and neatly without mutation. 23:28:41 quick sort has poor performance properties in pure code, though 23:28:58 Riastradh, tabemann : already made merge sort a couple of minutes ago. But I would be insane if merge sort is the easies algorithm to code in scheme, merge sort is a decent performance algorithm... 23:28:58 you can implement it *really* succinctly, but it differs significantly in complexity from imperative quick sort 23:29:07 Break it into little parts. For selection sort, the first thing to do is choose an extreme element of the list. 23:29:49 OK, `tree sort', not quick sort, if you insist. Both run in O(n^2) worst-case time and O(n log n) expected time. 23:30:17 -!- jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:32 selection sort using a mast on a list! Guess that could work. Brb. 23:30:46 (well, okay, one *can* implement quick sort in pure code with the same complexity as imperative quick sort... but you have to do something like use the ST monad in Haskell to do that...) 23:32:10 At which point I refute its purity ;) 23:32:30 If you're using the State monad to give yourself mutable state just to dig yourself out of the purity pit, I declare cheating :) 23:33:33 well... the ST monad isn't the same thing as the State monad... but one can much more easily argue that the ST monad is impure than the State monad (as the ST monad is actually implemented with unsafePerformIO, whereas the implementation of the State monad really is completely pure code) 23:34:12 It's all the same thing, though. Doesn't -really- matter about implementation. 23:34:22 The fact remains that you're trying to get "mutable state-like stuff". 23:35:47 the State monad is basically a way of avoiding passing around a state value within pure code; the ST monad is actually a way to make truly mutable state completely safe and externally pure 23:35:55 Rather, deforested tree sort. 23:36:10 you'll get different complexity with the two for many algorithms 23:38:18 *tabemann* for some reason feels wrong for introducing his coworkers, imperative Java coders, to the ST monad at his "lunch and learn" lecture on Haskell at work... 23:38:26 Well, I don't get bothering with keeping things "pure" with a huge overhead. 23:38:31 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:38:37 jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has joined #scheme 23:38:53 pumpkin360: Quite. It's why I prefer Scheme.. :) I can have all the imperitive mutations I want, all I have to do is reach for the ! key 23:39:08 that imperative mutation is making my implementing Scheme in Haskell a pain 23:39:18 it'd be so much simpler if set! didn't exist 23:39:31 Unfortunately, the real world is mutable ;) 23:39:37 tabemann: Isn't there a wikibook on that? 23:39:39 I'd probably get better performance out of it too 23:39:59 youlysses: there's tutorials on writing mini-Schemes, but I'm targeting R5RS + syntax-case + multithreading 23:40:10 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:40:16 tabemann: Ah, ok. 23:40:22 yeah 23:40:48 most of those Haskell mini-Scheme things don't really cover things like mutable state and dynamic-wind... 23:40:48 youlysses: many wikibooks are not that accurate imho 23:41:54 (call/cc + dynamic-wind is also a pain, due to the cases of after and before thunks being arbitrarily entered and exited *during* applying a continuation) 23:42:05 Yyyup :) 23:42:09 Those are powerful stuff 23:42:16 zacts: Well there's such a low-barrier to entry, though it fits a niche. It's by no-means the basis of the next text-book I would want to teach to a class... but I've found some useful info within the service. 23:42:32 call/cc would be *so* simpler were it not for dynamic-wind 23:42:40 Yuhuh 23:42:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:53 Also: dynamic-wind and call/cc both make TCMC much harder to implement correctly 23:43:03 TCMC? 23:43:06 If a TCMC'ed tailcall gets reactivated a second time because of call/cc 23:43:25 *sigh* Does -nobody- know what TCMC is..? 23:43:31 LeoNerd: didn't you implement a scheme interpreter in perl? 23:43:38 Partly. It's not finished yet 23:43:47 aranhoide [~smuxi@145.Red-79-155-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:48 And it's not a -serious- one because it's god-almightily-slow... 23:43:54 The Commonwealth Medical College? 23:43:57 tabemann: tailcall-modulo-cons 23:44:15 pumpkin360: that's not part of R5RS, is it? 23:44:19 I've solved Project Euler 1-6 in it, but I can't do 7 because I stopped it at an hour, trying to generate the 10,001th prime 23:44:26 No, it's an optimisation 23:44:28 tabemann: ask LeoNers 23:44:28 zacts: I'd be interesting though -- me-thinks, if there was a service that tried making general copyleft text-books for a myriad of topics. For example, like http://www.lightandmatter.com 23:44:35 *LeoNerd 23:44:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 23:44:47 TCMC says that in (cons FOO BAR) one of FOO or BAR can be turned into a tailcall 23:44:51 CWCC causes what would normally be internal, nonobservable mutable state to be exposed so that other code can obsreve it. 23:45:03 observe 23:45:14 It makes most of the list-generating functions trivial to write in the "obvious" way, because they usually recurse on themself in the cdr position of a cons call 23:45:24 LeoNerd: Do You keep that in one of Your system registers permanently ? :) 23:45:28 youlysses: persuade textbook authors and publishers to eventually release books under a creative commons license. that's what SICP did. 23:45:28 LeoNerd: yeah, it's trying to emulate the typical Haskell pattern of, like, foo x = x : foo x, in constant space but in Scheme 23:45:41 Ya.. Haskell has TCMC 23:45:48 Some Scheme implementations have it too 23:46:07 Same reason why (define (map f l) (if (pair? l) (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))) '())) behaves differently from 23:46:12 r5 doesn't require it (because it's hard to implement), but doesn't forbid it either. r5 doesn't say that no -other- types of function can be tailcalls 23:46:38 (define (map f l) (let ((r (cons 0 '()))) (let loop ((l l) (r r)) (if (pair? l) (let ((r* (cons (f (car l)) '()))) (set-cdr! r r*) (loop (cdr l) r*)))) (cdr r))). 23:46:39 actually I can see how I'd implement tailcall-modulo-cons 23:46:45 it's pretty simple 23:46:50 -!- jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:53 I have a number of different return stack frame types 23:46:57 It's quite simple in a VM, if you use some sort of linked-list .. oyes :) 23:47:09 so I make a special return stack frame type that includes an accumulator for a list 23:47:16 Just have a CONS type return frame that returns some value to its caller, but accumulates into a different value 23:47:25 Then "pushing" a CONS onto a CONS in fact merges them 23:48:00 Haskell's foldr avoids blowing the stack for reasons totally unrelated to TCMC. 23:48:02 LeoNerd: Offtopic - how does perl serve as a general purpose language ? It is known as the "duck tape of the internet", but I somehow don't like the syntax. Is it really so powerful ? 23:48:05 At which point you can make other things work too relatively simply; e.g. TCMC on the + operator; make (+ 1 (self-call FOO)) into a tailcall as well 23:48:11 Infact, gcc can -already- do that with C :) 23:48:15 zacts: Certainly a good way to go-about it, though possibly problematic in fields of study which are constantly changing at a semi-rabid pace. :^P 23:48:37 *tabemann* remembers trying to learn Perl in high school and absolutely hating it 23:48:41 int strlen(char *s) { if(!*s) return 0; return 1 + strlen(s+1); } <== gcc turns this into a while-loop style tailcall thing.. 23:48:44 It's quite scary 23:49:05 jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has joined #scheme 23:49:09 *tabemann* doesn't rely on tail calls when writing C or C++ code 23:49:22 -!- jvc [~jvc@111.161.77.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:37 pumpkin360: The absolute number-1 killer feature of Perl, is CPAN. Prettymuch anything I want to do has already been written, bugtested, documented, smoketested on 20 different perl versions on 10 different OS platforms, wiki-annotated, ... 23:49:51 tabemann: I'm a fairly recent HS grad (about 2 years ago) and all our school "taught" in terms of "programming language..." was html. 23:50:02 mein gott 23:50:38 okay, well, I tried learning Perl *during* high school, not *in* it 23:51:03 *tabemann* then learned Python shortly thereafter, and liked it much better, and then learned OCaml, and the rest is history... 23:51:07 LeoNerd: But java (tfu) probably has even bigger code database? 23:51:18 pumpkin360: It's not just the code, it's the whole infrastructure around it 23:51:49 tabemann: Ah, I got stuck in the "to many choices" trap. C++ -> Python -> C -> Emacs Lisp, and now I'm here and think I'm staying. :^) 23:51:50 CPAN is not _just_ a collection of code people can download. It's all in one place, mirrored to lots of places. It's a standard namespace arbitrator. It's a bug-tracker. It's a smoketest/CI framework. It's a dependency manager,... 23:51:54 Java isn't a very nice language, and unfortunately I have to work in it 23:52:18 I like perl regex, that was what initially got me interested in perl. I need to emerse myself in perl and perl culture more though to really retain everything. cpan is sweet. 23:52:34 *tabemann* prefers to have nothing to do with regex 23:52:47 regex is like bebop licks 23:52:52 LeoNerd: ok, thanks for opinion. As nobody forces me to use any language I will stick with scheme/racket then. 23:53:02 pumpkin360: There are probably more lines of Java code on the internet, more lines of C code. But how hard are they to find? to install? To keep track of? I can put -one- line of code in my Build.PL file and have a new dependency, automatically installed, tracked, upgraded, etc.. wherever my code is deployed. That one line, that name, tells me who to send bug reports to, where to read the documentation, etc.. 23:53:09 zacts: Didn't get that reference... :^U 23:53:21 That's the part that most non-perl people don't notice about CPAN. It's a lot more than just a place to passively download code ;) 23:53:32 *tabemann* likes the Hackage system form Haskell, which is probably pretty analogous to CPAN 23:53:40 s/form/for 23:53:59 Hackage + Cabal, specfically 23:54:05 s/specfically/specifically 23:54:23 youlysses: you don't see a correlation between regex and bebop runs? 23:55:02 LeoNerd: yes, one thing that sucks is that there's no automated way to get at all that Java code out there 23:55:07 and chasing dependencies sucks 23:55:14 Yup.. :) 23:55:30 zacts: The Jazz guitar play-style? 23:55:37 or jazz piano 23:55:58 zacts: I'm pretty tired, so I may be missing the obvious. :^P 23:56:00 It's a shame... Perl is very good at stealing ideas from others (we got PSGI from Rack/WSGI, perlbrew from.. er.. whatever the ruby thing is,...) but nobody else seems to come to us for ideas to take back.. 23:56:22 tabemann: Just ended high school. Also know some python, but I am not a big fan of it. Liked it for a while, but then found out scheme. Still don't have a general purpose language, but racket appears nice and will most likely cover everything I do in python. 23:56:29 regex reminds me of bud powell or herbie hancock stuff, but in the form of code. 23:56:49 maybe I'm just unique in this regard.. :) 23:57:08 Scheme is verymuch an opposite of Python, IMHO. Scheme has all the things I find missing in Python.. Primary, mutable lexical closures, and anonymous functions 23:57:41 LeoNerd: python has anonymous functions... 23:57:43 Quite opposite in spirit, too. Scheme basically says "here's a minimal toolbox of things you'll need to be able to build the way you want to do it". 23:57:45 zacts: I'll take your word for it. :^) 23:57:46 No it doesn't 23:57:51 It has anonymous -expressions-, in the form of lambda. 23:57:57 ok 23:57:59 Scheme would be my most favorite dynamic language were it not for that I'd have to pick an implementation and stick with it 23:58:11 Pythons' bizarre idea that expressions and statements are different means there are lots of things you cannot do in a lambda. Such as raise an exception 23:58:27 You can't put while loops in lambdas, for example. Those are statements. not expressions 23:58:59 (well you can say the same about Haskell... but GHC basically is *the* default implementation, even though there are others...) 23:59:15 LeoNerd: that I never liked about Python myself