00:01:45 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 00:02:41 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 00:03:28 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 00:09:10 -!- rudybot___ is now known as rudybot 00:11:27 tabemann [~travisb@adsl-68-248-224-160.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:02 hmm 00:13:24 from reading the Guile docs it seems that, as I guessed, that the only way to handle multiple return values is call-with-values 00:14:00 tabemann: if you mean to accept an arbitrary number of them, yes, I believe that's true. 00:14:02 which means that I can optimize my normal function application to only handle one return value, rather than having to make each scheme function be able to handle any number of return values anywhere 00:14:26 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 00:14:35 and to just make call-with-values a "primitive" function that is implemented in Haskell 00:15:54 (just like I can optimize away argument count checking to be implemented in Haskell as part of the function application process, rather than requiring the compiled Scheme code to do its own argument checking) 00:16:13 tabemann: I'm not sure how that would work, while the dynamic context of call-with-values is the only place that can handle varying number of return values, (1) other contexts might handle any _specific_ number of values, and (2) there's no way of knowing, when compiling a specific function, whether it will eventually be run in a context that passes its results to call-with-values. 00:16:31 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:12 Now I'm not sure what distinction you're making. What does it mean for "Scheme code to do its own argument checking"? 00:18:01 that I mean is that the compiled scheme code pops a argument count off the top of the stack, and then uses that to internally let its own local variables and then populate any extra arguments into an argument list bound to a local variable, if that is supported 00:18:54 whereas by having apply basically get a bound argument count and whether extra arguments are supported from the compiled scheme function and use that to automatically populate local variables the process can be optimized 00:19:08 Oh, so you mean you're making arity-checking part of the VM rather than part of code generation. Makes sense. 00:19:57 carleastlund: what do you mean by other contexts being able to support specific numbers of values? R5RS didn't seem that specific on the semantics of values when you used it outside call-with-values 00:20:25 tabemann, it sounds like you're doing a lot of (premature) optimization. If you're implementing your first Scheme interpreter, you might want to do the most general thing first until it all works, then see what needs optimization. It will greatly simplify your life, and you'll be unlikely to find out later that something interferes with your optimization. 00:22:19 tabemann: but being used inside call-with-values is a dynamic property, not a static one 00:22:20 I'm trying to figure out what I can or cannot optimize, because doing the approach where functions handle their own arity checking and local variable population requires compiling in extra code that I'd want to avoid, and likewise with return values because 1 is by far the most common case, I want to optimize that common case rather than requiring function to be able to handle arbitrary numbers of return values in all places 00:22:24 I know 00:23:04 tabemann: but you could make the function application mechanism do the arity checking, so you only need the code that checks once, rather than for each function 00:23:13 agumonkey [~agu@245.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:50 what I'm planning on having is that at the top of the stack, when returning, a function returns how many arguments it is returning 00:24:06 and then, if the function is being called by the normal application mechanism, it raises an exception if that value is not 1 00:24:55 whereas if it is inside the primitive function call-with-values, it just takes the stack as is and passes it to the second function, using the number at the top for the usual arity checking 00:25:29 that all sounds right, so if that's what I was complaining about, ignore me! 00:25:30 so I'm wondering about if there are any cases other than call-with-values in which a particular number of return values other than 1 may occur without an exception being raised 00:25:57 in R5RS, I think none; I think everything else that uses multiple values is constructed using call-with-values. 00:26:05 that's what I thought 00:30:06 another question 00:30:24 the only way you can apply a function with arbitrary arguments, i.e. not a specific number, is with apply, right? 00:31:53 tabemann: I do believe so, yes 00:32:49 okay, that means I can put the argument count inside my apply instruction, rather than having to put the argument count on the stack 00:33:04 which saves me a consing and a pattern match 00:33:13 for each apply 00:33:40 well 00:33:45 that's not too expensive 00:37:55 (there is less added expense to putting the return value count on the stack, because I would need a return count instruction anyways otherwise, and then I'd have to put the value from that *somewhere*, which would just mean unnecessary complexity) 00:40:28 -!- tabemann is now known as tabemann|away 00:47:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:59:50 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@72.49.0.102] has joined #scheme 01:00:12 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:00:33 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:54 Riastradh 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connection] 04:11:30 arrdem_ [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #scheme 04:11:31 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest76119 04:12:04 what did trigger rudybot into saying the above? 04:12:47 a join message? 04:13:03 trusktr_ [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:13:08 -!- jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@115.192.190.206] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:13:17 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:13:18 -!- muep [twingo@otitsun.oulu.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:13:19 -!- Guest89565 [~klutometi@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:13:19 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:13:37 -!- tabemann [~travisb@adsl-68-248-224-160.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:14:20 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 04:14:40 jaimef_ [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:13 jarod_ch_ 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seconds] 18:56:05 do you mind if I ask an SICP related perl question here? 18:56:32 zacts: did you eat your meta cookies yet ? 18:56:41 lol 18:56:41 :D 18:58:47 you mean SICK? 18:59:10 no sicp 18:59:19 oh you are joking 18:59:27 :-) 18:59:35 no, I'm trying to apply data abstraction to other languages 18:59:47 so I can _really_ understand it 19:00:23 perl is my first language, so it helps me to understand it better sometimes. 19:00:53 I just have a couple of specific questions about data abstraction 19:02:49 namely constructors and selectors 19:03:11 are those standard terminology, or is that just a terminology local to SICP? 19:08:11 daat418 [~daat_un@chammerling-mini.xinet.COM] has joined #scheme 19:14:29 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:52 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 19:17:25 zacts: those are reasonably standard terminology; there are synonyms used in other places, certainly (e.g. selectors can also be called "accessors") 19:17:50 ok, also #perl-help on irc.perl.org is helping me with perl specifics 19:18:01 I don't want to bother this channel with perl 19:18:26 is there a site listing all those synonyms ? 19:21:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-241.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:22:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:22:21 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 19:22:45 -!- daat418 [~daat_un@chammerling-mini.xinet.COM] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:23:03 -!- agumonke1 [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:24:17 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 19:25:58 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:22 oleo, I have no idea. So far as I know, constructors are always called constructors, and selectors are either called selectors or accessors, but people are always making up new words for things without my permission, more's the pity. ;-) 19:27:28 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:32 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:55:03 have somebody tried scsh? is it handy/useful/alive? 19:59:24 defanor: I don't know exactly about scsh, but the process notation has been ported to chicken: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/scsh-process 20:00:46 nice, thanks for the link 20:01:20 You're welcome. 20:05:15 -!- wrl_ is now known as wrl 20:07:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:08:47 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 20:09:39 Ripp__ [~Ripp___@reccev-wism-wlan-190-117.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:27:58 -!- dessos 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