00:03:50 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:51 _ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 00:06:52 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:56 -!- agumonkey [~agu@156.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:40:55 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host82-222-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:56:14 -!- pcl [~pcl@cpe-172-254-108-166.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 01:02:21 Qojont [~Jeremy@204.195.149.48] has joined #scheme 01:02:34 Can someone explain how to read this (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:02:58 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 01:03:07 I'd add newlines and use emacs to indent it 01:03:35 qojont: http://ix.io/6EZ 01:03:39 bit easier now 01:04:04 That's not really clear to me either 01:04:19 well, you'll rarely see this sort of thing in the Real World 01:04:40 I know but I want to understand it 01:04:44 so I can get on with scheme 01:04:55 + * and - are all procedures; in this expression, they're all being passed two or three arguments apiece 01:05:10 Can you write it like 01:05:11 the indentation and parens make it clear what the arguments are 01:05:29 rudybot: (with-input-from-string read "(+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6))") 01:05:30 stamourv``: your sandbox is ready 01:05:31 stamourv``: error: with-input-from-string: contract violation expected: string? given: # argument position: 1st other arguments...: "(+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6))" 01:05:31 3 * 2 + (3 * 5) 01:05:34 like something like that 01:05:40 rudybot: (with-input-from-string "(+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6))" read) 01:05:40 stamourv``: ; Value: '(+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:05:57 HTH, HAND. ;) 01:06:14 qojont: you can write it that way, but you'll have a hard time getting your scheme interpreter to make anything of it :) 01:06:22 Unless you want to write an infix parser ... 01:06:30 eh 01:06:52 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-169-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:06 Qojont: you must understand what an expression is, then what subexpressions are. 01:07:21 did you guys understand it immediately? 01:07:41 the syntax is different from conventional mathematical syntax 01:08:05 (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:08:10 go step by step please 01:08:12 rudybot: ((3 . * . ((2 . * . 4) . + . (3 . + . 5))) . + . ((10 . - . 7) . + . 6)) 01:08:12 stamourv``: ; Value: 57 01:08:21 Racket supports infix notation, too. 01:08:23 It's reverse polish notation stirred in with a slew of parenthesis 01:08:33 stamourv: you beat me to it 01:08:42 Would you understand it more if it read like sum(product(3,sum(product(2,4),sum(3,5))),sum(diff(10,7),6))) ? 01:08:49 offby1: It's a real pain to type, though. Took me a whole minute. 01:08:56 I don't understand the plus sign after the 4 01:08:59 3* 01:09:03 qojont: yes, I understood it immediately; but it took me half a minute to come up with 57 in my head. 01:09:19 I get it 01:09:29 I just don't understadn the plus sign after the 4 01:09:30 3* 01:09:35 stamourv: I was half-tempted to write an Emacs macro to rewrite it for me 01:10:01 Ill be back 01:10:04 qojont: not sure which + sign you mean, but that's OK: they're all the same. 01:10:16 they're all just a procedure that returns the sum of its arguments. 01:13:30 offby1: The only time I use that syntax, pretty much, is for contract arrows. 01:14:18 -!- Qojont [~Jeremy@204.195.149.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:58 yep 01:28:46 agumonkey [~agu@156.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:14 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-169-213.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:31 Kojimoto [~Jeremy@69-84-118-201-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:00 estevocastro [~estevocas@240.Red-83-59-17.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:28 Sorry I went afk 01:34:54 What I meant was this one ill put quotation marks next to it 01:35:07 (+ (* 3 ("+" (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:36:54 I've lost the question... 01:37:07 But in any case, that doesn't really make sense - a string isn't executable as a function 01:38:21 Leo can you help me 01:38:33 I'm stuck on something that seeems so simple 01:38:40 Possibly, if you ask a question I can actually follow.. 01:38:49 ok 01:39:02 I'm having trouble readingthe rpn math 01:39:05 or pre fix 01:39:13 Just think of it as function calls 01:39:14 and in the SICP book 01:39:17 Would you understand it more if it read like sum(product(3,sum(product(2,4),sum(3,5))),sum(diff(10,7),6))) ? as I said earlier 01:39:28 no 01:39:29 (+ a b c) <===> sum(a,b,c) in some other language notation 01:39:35 I understand the rule 01:39:37 of the prefix 01:39:41 just in this example 01:39:42 (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:39:46 LeoNerd: He has been asking the same question over and over again in multiple channels for over an hour now. 01:39:46 the plus sign 01:39:56 The plus sign is nothing special 01:39:56 He has been given multiple ways to try to understand it. 01:40:00 after the 3 01:40:02 Very few symbols are special in scheme 01:40:04 where does it go 01:40:13 That + sign just names a function; the function of numerical addition 01:40:18 in a normal reading of this 01:40:23 It could just as easily be called "add" 01:40:29 Someone converted it to infix, multiple people have indented it properly, I went step by step executing inner expressions... 01:40:44 arubin, What's your problem 01:40:55 are you jumping channels to just bash on me 01:41:07 Kojimoto: I am always in the same channels. 01:41:12 im sorry if it doesn't come as clear to me as it did to you 01:41:35 Kojimoto: The problem is that you are not asking any questions which might lead to a better understanding. 01:41:48 All im asking 01:41:49 for 01:41:54 Do you understand what (+ x y) does? 01:41:56 is a normal reading of it 01:41:58 yes 01:42:02 x+y 01:42:10 Do you understand that x and y can be expressions? 01:42:24 no 01:42:28 And that they must be evaluated first? 01:42:55 Ok so (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 01:42:56 is it 01:43:06 Just start with something simpler. 01:43:06 3*(2*4) + 01:43:20 (+ 1 (* 2 3)) 01:43:24 Do you understand that? 01:43:33 1 + 2*3 01:43:35 ? 01:43:39 Do not guess. 01:43:50 I'm serious 01:44:08 (procedure arg1, arg2...) 01:44:28 So + is a procedure. 01:44:34 The first argument is 1. 01:44:40 No more evaluation necessary. 01:44:50 hmm 01:44:50 The second argument is (* 2 3). 01:44:55 So it must be evaluated. 01:45:02 * is a procedure. 01:45:03 so 2*3 01:45:20 Both of its arguments are already literals. 01:45:39 What do you mean by literals 01:45:48 So (* 2 3) is evaluated and becomes 6. 01:46:02 ok 01:46:03 Which now makes the main expression (+ 1 6) 01:46:19 Thats what I said though 01:46:25 1+(2*3) 01:46:40 Yes. 01:46:40 "literals" == actual numbers; numbers that are literally written directly into the program 01:46:45 But you must understand why that is. 01:46:55 Ok I understand it like that 01:47:00 maybe if I do it reverse 01:47:04 ill get a better understanding 01:47:33 6 is a literal number; (* 2 3) is not a literal; it is an expression form that, were it to be evaluated, would happen to give the number 6 01:48:10 how would I write 12-(2*3) + (3+4) 01:48:34 so 1 is the literal number? 01:48:48 The result, not the literal. 01:48:56 12, 2, 3, 3, and 4 are literals. 01:49:03 (+ (- 12 (* 2 3)) (+ 3 4)) 01:49:44 ok I think I get it now 01:49:46 although you can simplify it to (+ (- 12 (* 2 3)) 3 4) 01:49:49 give me one to try out 01:50:19 Kojimoto: When you are working on these things there is no reason to try to eyeball the sub-expressions. 01:50:31 Because addition is associative; so (+ a (+ b c)) can become just (+ a b c) 01:50:40 ok 01:50:50 But give me one 01:50:54 the way I wrote it 01:51:01 so I can test to see if I can do it 01:51:05 When you put the cursor after a closing parenthesis in Dr. Racket it will highlight the expression. 01:51:49 Before a closing parenthesis or before an opening parenthesis. 01:51:52 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:52:18 (2*3 + 5*7) * 11 01:52:29 So put that big nasty one in Dr. Racket and then put your cursor before the second opening parenthesis. 01:52:31 try that one? 01:52:46 That is the first sub-expression and the first argument to the procedure +. 01:52:49 ok 01:53:56 (*(+(*2 3)(*5 7) 11) 01:53:58 :( 01:54:28 You have more ('s than )'s 01:54:31 So that can't be right 01:54:37 add a ) 01:54:38 to the end 01:54:45 (*(+(*2 3)(*5 7) 11)) 01:54:50 (* (...) 11) where ... is however you represent 2*3 + 5*7 01:55:08 so the ) that you're missing is not at the end 01:55:10 so I did it right? 01:55:14 Nope 01:55:18 oh 01:55:25 :c 01:55:43 it closes the subexpression you're multiplying by 11 01:55:58 try 2*3 + 5*7 01:56:09 without the (* (...) 11) 01:56:36 (+(*2 3)(*5 7)) 01:56:38 ehh 01:56:42 alright 01:57:01 now plug that into the ... here -> (* (...) 11) 01:57:22 (*(+(*2 3)(*5 7)) 11) 01:57:22 (*2 3) is not the same as (* 2 3) BTW. 01:57:27 Though don't forget the spaces; it's always (+ (* 2 3) (* 5 7)) 01:57:44 The spaces are important in Scheme and other lisps; *5 is a separate symbol 01:58:03 kojimoto: that is correct, except for the spaces, as arubin and LeoNerd point out 01:58:19 karswell [~user@87.114.92.76] has joined #scheme 01:58:21 ok 01:58:24 ty so much 01:58:29 yw 01:58:34 I feel pretty dumb now 01:58:39 don't :) 01:58:51 it just takes getting used to 01:58:56 I was just stuck on this plus sign 01:59:00 in the beginning 01:59:06 ty so much once again 01:59:09 and ty arubin 01:59:19 for putting up with me :') 02:00:20 Just wait until you get to quote. 02:03:47 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@240.Red-83-59-17.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:08 Kojimoto: so you figured out how arithmetic works more or less? 02:12:45 yeah 02:13:32 arubin: And if quote doesn't get you, call/cc will ;) 02:14:17 Or possibly cons, car, and cdr. 02:15:55 LeoNerd: call/cc is understandable if you read Friedman's papers first 02:16:09 (and have been programming for a fair amount of time) 02:16:48 Ah, hmm? Have a link to that? 02:17:20 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dfried/ 02:17:30 all of the stuff on continuations or trampolining 02:17:41 oh my god 02:17:46 A little light reading. 02:17:48 -_- 02:18:23 (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) I got 41 02:18:36 sigh 02:18:52 Kojimoto: you will almost never need to write an expression like that 02:19:00 "Any trampoline that does not warp your mind is not a true trampoline" 02:19:03 I still want to know 02:19:05 you will make liberal use of let and define 02:19:19 What did I do wrong 02:19:21 to get 41 02:19:27 I have no idea 02:19:40 no way I'm evaluating that in my head 02:19:41 I did 3(2*4) 02:19:45 24 02:19:50 then 3=5 02:19:54 3+5 02:20:04 Kojimoto: You are not properly determining the sub-expressions. 02:20:05 and 10-7 + 6 02:20:09 Like I said, let Dr. Racket do it for you. 02:20:11 (+ 3 5) gets evaluated before (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5)) 02:20:20 Put the cursor next to the opening parenthesis. 02:20:53 binding + imported from racket? 02:20:57 that's what it shows 02:21:04 that's what you get if you type + by itself 02:21:09 I think.. 02:21:19 no, you're looking at something else 02:21:23 Kojimoto: Not the mouse cursor. 02:21:29 Click so that the keyboard cursor is there. 02:21:29 you have online expansion enabled 02:21:47 when that's enabled it shows you where things are from 02:21:50 Dr. Racket will highlight the sub-expression. 02:22:01 I don't know what you mean what toher cursor 02:22:05 other* 02:22:27 Kojimoto: he means the position of where text is inputted 02:22:29 when you type 02:22:37 the | symbol 02:22:50 on the top 02:22:52 or bottom 02:22:53 screen 02:23:06 Kojimoto: http://i.imgur.com/RGKAlcB.png 02:23:34 Kojimoto: as you move the text cursor around DrRacket will highlight things for you 02:23:47 ok 02:23:57 so what do the highlightings signify 02:23:58 Kojimoto: And when I move the cursor over: http://i.imgur.com/nzqA7FC.png 02:24:19 Kojimoto: the point is to make it easier to read heavily nested code 02:24:19 Kojimoto: One s-expression. 02:24:26 ok 02:24:27 I see 02:24:51 arubin: technically they aren't s-expressions >.> 02:24:57 Okay. 02:25:05 well they are in Scheme 02:25:13 so I guess they are in the language he's using 02:25:26 but anyway 02:25:36 So what are you supposed to do with the *3 02:25:43 *3 is an identifier 02:25:50 See earlier about spaces 02:25:54 Kojimoto: We discussed this earlier. 02:26:03 I know 02:26:04 (procedure arg1 arg2...) 02:26:11 So * is the procedure. 02:26:15 The first argument is 3. 02:26:19 The second is an expression. 02:26:27 So now you move into that expression and begin evaluation. 02:26:38 rudybot: (let ((*3 42)) (* *3 2)) 02:26:39 Nisstyre: your sandbox is ready 02:26:39 Nisstyre: ; Value: 84 02:27:02 rudybot, (+(*2 3)(*5 7)) 02:27:02 Kojimoto: your sandbox is ready 02:27:02 Kojimoto: error: *2: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 02:27:10 see? 02:27:15 *2 is an identifier 02:27:19 unnamed though 02:27:25 er, undefined rather 02:27:25 Nope :/ 02:27:30 yes it is 02:27:33 it's just undefined 02:27:36 I don't see it 02:27:41 Without all the terms 02:27:51 just tell me what you do with the *3 02:27:55 in the whole expression 02:28:02 Stop typing it without the space. 02:28:09 And I told you what to do. 02:28:10 * 3 02:28:18 I know 02:28:23 and I understood 02:28:27 the evaluator tries to look up an identifier called *2 in the current environment (kind of like a table of names associated with things) 02:28:35 it sees that there is no name called *2 defined 02:28:41 so it gives you an error 02:29:02 are you talking about me putting the space? 02:29:02 that's the simplified explanation 02:29:15 yes, *2 is not the same as * 2 02:29:17 or not putting the space 02:29:26 Yes I know that 02:29:29 ok 02:29:30 that's my own error 02:29:45 I'm talking about in the expression 02:29:47 (+ (* 3 (+ (* 2 4) (+ 3 5))) (+ (- 10 7) 6)) 02:29:58 you see the (* 3... 02:30:03 what are you doing with that 02:30:25 Kojimoto: Read what I wrote in response about 5 times. 02:30:47 I'm not sure where your misunderstanding is 02:30:49 You need to stop looking at only the beginning of the expressions. 02:31:01 An expression starts with ( and ends with ). 02:31:10 You must consider the entire thing. 02:31:37 You must evaluate each argument. 02:31:46 doesn't SICP give you a procedure for evaluating arithmetic expressions? 02:31:54 And if an argument has nested expressions, you must evaluate those too. 02:31:54 like, early on 02:32:19 and by "procedure" I mean by hand 02:32:46 I understand that concept 02:32:51 but the * 3 02:32:56 doesnt fit into anywhere 02:32:58 what about it? 02:33:06 Kojimoto: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/261845 maybe that will help 02:33:12 Kojimoto: What is the complete expression? 02:33:22 It's supposed to be a little ASCII art diagram with arrows.. but hopefully you can read it 02:33:25 Kojimoto: (+ 2 (* 4 5)) and (+ (+ 0 2) (* 4 5)) are both valid 02:33:48 (and give the same answer) 02:34:06 Thank you for doing that LeoNerd 02:34:10 now I see what I did wrong 02:34:31 LeoNerd: that's similar to the picture in SICP IIRC 02:34:44 Nisstyre: I can't -imagine- where I got the idea from ;) 02:34:50 I was doing the * 3 first 02:34:50 Kojimoto: you may be better off starting with HtDP instead of SICP btw 02:35:15 No i'm fine 02:35:15 *arubin* did that hours ago. 02:35:30 arubin: what? recommend htdp? 02:35:33 *ed 02:35:40 No, show him each step of the execution. 02:35:52 Not with the ASCII art though. 02:35:57 oh ok 02:36:09 I could hack something together that does it 02:36:16 No I understand everything you guys were telling me 02:36:19 and the concepts 02:36:25 in fact I pretty much have all that's needed and written in JS too 02:36:30 just I was doing 3 * 2 * 4 02:36:31 first 02:36:39 Nisstyre: I was trying to think of how to get Dr. Racket to do it. During the Redex talk he showed us a really cool diagramed output. 02:36:54 intead of 2 * 4 + 3 + 5 02:37:00 arubin: I know Racket will show macro expansion steps 02:37:04 not sure about evaluation in general 02:38:53 Nisstyre, Why HtDP? 02:39:08 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:39:19 Kojimoto: it's much gentler 02:39:28 Nisstyre: Here we go. Change the language to BSL. 02:39:31 Then use Step. 02:39:41 I wouldn't consider this very difficult 02:39:47 just a misunderstanding 02:39:57 Kojimoto: wait until you get to the chapter on building a Scheme evaluator 02:40:17 Well I haven't gotten there yet 02:40:19 so we will see 02:40:20 :) 02:40:37 arubin: oh neat 02:41:10 Kojimoto: or doing symbolic differentiation 02:41:36 Or recursion. 02:41:41 Or Scheme's lists. 02:41:55 Or higher-order functions. 02:41:55 arubin: were lists hard to grok for you? 02:42:03 Nisstyre: Conceptually? No. 02:42:09 hard to use? 02:42:28 Nisstyre: The things that tripped me up were quote and the structure of lists. 02:42:35 I admit you can get confused with a lot of cars and cdrs littered all over the place 02:42:37 Especially dot notation. 02:42:43 but then you abstract things a bit to make it easier to use 02:43:43 Will it be hard to learn oop 02:43:46 after SICP 02:44:09 Kojimoto: SICP teaches OOP 02:44:26 I thought it was functional 02:44:31 not exactly 02:44:41 besides, objects can be functional 02:44:55 What does it mean by functional 02:45:06 Like functional programming 02:45:15 arubin: were you confused by the fact that (cons 1 2) works? 02:45:21 Kojimoto: good question 02:45:26 Nisstyre: No. 02:45:55 More confused by the difference between (cons 1 (cons 2 '())), (list 1 2), and '(1 2). 02:46:10 oh ok 02:46:22 And (cons 1 2) and '(1 . 2). 02:47:25 I have a much better understanding now. 02:47:39 rudybot: (list? (cons 1 '(1 . '()))) 02:47:40 Nisstyre: ; Value: #t 02:47:46 rudybot: (list? (cons 1 '(1 . 3))) 02:47:46 Nisstyre: ; Value: #f 02:48:32 arubin: I like The Reasoned Schemer so far 02:48:42 rudybot, (define pi 3.14159) (define radius 10) (* pi (* radius radius)) 314.159 (define circumference (* 2 pi radius)) circumference 62.8318 02:48:43 Kojimoto: Which may very well NOT exist in this universe. If the universe is discrete (and it seems it is), then a circle doesn't exist, and an approximation has not PI as ratio betweein it's "circumference" and one of its radiuses. 02:49:07 lol wut 02:49:23 rudybot is skynet 02:49:44 Kojimoto has activated it. 02:49:56 Skynet activated 02:50:19 Nisstyre: Once I get past some nonsense at work I plan to put serious effort into learning Scheme and reading the popular works. 02:50:36 Skynet has become aware 02:50:37 arubin: cool, good luck 02:51:05 rudybot, Is rudybot your real name? 02:51:06 Kojimoto: continues to idle, like a real troll 02:51:13 I have actually been putting in a bit of overtime at work. 02:51:19 And I do not feel like doing anything at night. 02:51:22 arubin: me too :/ 02:51:35 Nisstyre: My overtime is due to our massive technical debt. 02:51:38 rudybot, I will terminate you! 02:51:39 Kojimoto: M-x kill emacs RET will terminate the daemon 02:51:39 We are trying to sign a huge client. 02:51:47 And I have been working on our performance problems. 02:51:50 arubin: so is mine, except it isn't quite as massive as yours I think 02:52:15 Arubin how many languages do you know? 02:52:24 Kojimoto: I know bits of a couple dozen languages. 02:52:39 Is there one that you have mastered 02:52:45 Not really. 02:52:52 I know Perl better than any others probably. 02:53:01 But Perl is a massive language like C++. 02:53:02 :) 02:53:09 *Nisstyre* hasn't really mastered any one language either 02:53:27 I'm working on Haskell 02:53:28 It's ok 02:53:30 take a seat 02:53:39 we're all open on #Scheme 02:53:43 Kojimoto: well I can use a bunch of languages very well 02:53:49 but I wouldn't say I've *mastered* them 02:54:00 Define master 02:54:02 that kind of implies you know almost everything about them 02:54:12 rudybot, Define master 02:54:12 Kojimoto: okay, I just can't relate to it then. Junio is an excellent maintainer. First, everything cooks in pu for ~ a week, and then in next for another ~ week before going into master. 02:54:16 and know all of the ways they can be used 02:54:28 Ahh rudybot is a charmer 02:54:35 Most languages are too large to really master unless all of your work is done in it. 02:54:53 I can say that Linus Torvalds has probably mastered C 02:55:05 I must deal with Transact-SQL (MS SQL Server's SQL), Perl, and JavaScript every day. 02:55:12 In addition to HTML and CSS. 02:55:29 and obviously Larry Wall has mastered Perl 02:55:35 And then at night I dabble with other things. 02:55:42 Is perl still used 02:55:45 yes 02:55:46 Nisstyre: I doubt that actually. 02:55:47 in real world applications 02:55:59 Nisstyre: There is a surprising amount of work done on 5.x still. 02:56:05 arubin: well, I think he does know more than almost anyone about the actual language 02:56:07 Nisstyre: I bet that he does not know all of the new functionality. 02:56:10 at least the earlier ones 02:56:13 Isn't perl 6 coming out 02:56:13 He is not really the lead developer for Perl 5. 02:56:24 yeah, I mean the earlier versions of perl 02:56:50 What are your thoughts on this, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-ordinary-language.html 02:56:54 Kojimoto: yes perl is used in "real world" stuff 02:56:57 yay or nay 02:57:19 Nisstyre: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlhist.html#THE-RECORDS 02:57:36 Kojimoto: using regular expressions for that is stupid 02:57:44 the researchers obviously have no clue if they're doing that 02:58:04 considering that English is at least context-free 02:58:31 (meaning you can embed phrases in phrases, you can't do that with regular expressions, at least not infinitely) 02:58:55 Nisstyre: "Real" regular expressions perhaps. 02:59:02 http://www.perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html 02:59:17 PCRE is not regular though. 02:59:50 And Perl 6's RE is pretty extensive. 03:00:24 hmm okay 03:00:30 they aren't stupid, I spoke too soon 03:00:37 they admit that regular expressions are limited 03:00:58 I still think it's not that useful though 03:01:00 rudybot, (define pi 3.14159) (define radius 10) (* pi (* radius radius)) 314.159 03:01:01 Kojimoto: I looked on "maps" on my phone, and there were about one bazillion little comic-book balloons within a two-block radius, each with a trite Buzz comment within the last hour or two. 03:01:15 Wow what a useless bot 03:01:21 Kojimoto: Just feed it one expression at a time. 03:01:34 rudybot: (define pi 3.14159) 03:01:34 arubin: your sandbox is ready 03:01:34 arubin: Done. 03:01:41 rudybot: (define radius 10) 03:01:41 arubin: Done. 03:01:49 rudybot: (* pi (* radius radius)) 03:01:49 arubin: ; Value: 314.159 03:02:21 How long do rudybot's sandboxes remain available? 03:02:33 Qojont [~Jeremy@69-84-118-201-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:38 Wow I hate Florida weather 03:02:47 rudybot, (define pi 3.14159) (define radius 10) (* pi (* radius radius)) 03:02:47 Qojont: (circle-around (5,5) #:radius 10 (says ? ?)) 03:03:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:16 rudybot: (begin (+ (/ 2 3) pi) (cos (* pi 2))) 03:03:16 Nisstyre: ; Value: 1.0 03:03:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@156.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:03:38 what is the "begin" for 03:03:43 no reason 03:03:48 Imperative programming! 03:03:51 just to show how you do multiple things 03:04:35 you didn't have to define pi? 03:05:07 -!- TheCrownedFox [~austin@186.sub-70-196-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:24 rudybot: pi 03:05:25 Nisstyre: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 03:05:36 rudybot: e 03:05:37 Nisstyre: error: e: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 03:05:40 hmm 03:05:40 Which interpreter does rudybot use? 03:06:00 rudybot: (define e (exp 1)) 03:06:01 Nisstyre: Done. 03:06:04 rudybot: e 03:06:04 Nisstyre: ; Value: 2.718281828459045 03:06:33 pi is not defined in Petite Chez. 03:07:07 -!- Kojimoto [~Jeremy@69-84-118-201-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:07:08 Just out of curiosity what are most viruses coded in 03:07:14 It is in Racket though. 03:07:35 Qojont: Something called shell code. 03:07:51 Like assembly? 03:07:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellcode 03:08:33 "Shellcode is commonly written in machine code." 03:09:00 shellcode is used when you want to get a buggy program to execute data in the context of code 03:09:07 the only way to do that usually is with shellcode 03:09:31 Do you know how to program shell code 03:09:47 I am sure that I could figure it out, but I do not really know machine code. 03:09:49 or machine code 03:09:52 I can somewhat read it. 03:10:36 When presented as assembly that is. 03:11:13 Qojont: technically you could write shellcode in any language 03:11:18 if the program will execute it 03:11:35 it's called "shell" code because it spawns a shell that the attacker uses to do nefarious stuff 03:11:37 TheCrownedFox [~austin@186.sub-70-196-193.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 03:11:45 Is there any simpler way to write this 03:11:50 nefarius, nice word 03:11:56 ous* 03:12:14 (define a 10) 03:12:14 (define b 20) 03:12:14 (* a b) 03:12:31 you have to prefix it with rudybot: 03:12:40 also 03:12:41 Qojont: Read a book on the subject. 03:12:49 no I don't need the answer 03:12:52 rudybot: (let ((a 10) (b 20)) (* a b)) 03:12:52 Nisstyre: ; Value: 200 03:12:59 Just a simpler way to write it 03:13:10 there you go 03:13:11 use let 03:13:35 rudybot, (define(a 10)(b 20)) (* a b) 03:13:36 Qojont: if i have a syntax-rules like (define-a name (arg ...)), how can I produce an expansion like (define (-name arg ...) ) ? 03:14:04 (let(a 10)(b 20)) (* a b) 03:14:11 Qojont: when you do (define (x y) it expects the body of a function 03:14:18 rudybot, (let(a 10)(b 20)) (* a b) 03:14:19 Qojont: i.e. what you meant was (defmacro leta (def forms &rest body) `(let ((it ,def)) ,@(mapcar (lambda (f) `(setq it ,f)) forms) ,@body)) (not tested) 03:14:33 10 is an invalid argument in fact 03:14:52 er, I should say 10 is an invalid parameter name 03:14:57 Qojont: I meant shellcode. 03:15:20 More than you ever wished to know about software vulnerabilities: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321444426/ 03:15:36 arubin: insecure.org has tons of stuff 03:15:46 also defcon talks on youtube 03:15:53 Sockets, Shellcode, Porting, and Coding: Reverse Engineering Exploits and Tool Coding for Security Professionals 03:16:00 Nisstyre: "tons of stuff" is rarely a good way to approach a subject. 03:16:12 true 03:16:17 well it's how I did originally 03:17:30 http://ha.ckers.org/ has a lot of stuff too, although he stopped writing a while ago 03:17:45 (as in 3 years ago) 03:20:23 What are like some of the must read books 03:20:31 in the field of comp sci 03:20:33 programming 03:20:37 hacking 03:20:38 w/e 03:21:18 Qojont: SICP is an obvious one. 03:21:30 Got that 03:22:36 Qojont: Tanenbaum's books on OS design are pretty solid. 03:23:26 what is a .chm file 03:23:30 On the non-technical end, I recently was recommended "Patterns of Software". 03:24:45 Qojont: It's a contained set of HTML files, often used to hold a text like a book. You can find converters to PDF and others though. 03:24:57 I goggled i 03:24:58 it 03:24:59 ty 03:25:01 though 03:25:13 Yeah just did that 03:25:21 what are those converters programmed in 03:25:33 Qojont: The online ones, or? 03:25:53 Eh I know if I say online 03:25:56 its probably 03:26:01 java script 03:26:08 Just like in general 03:28:24 Qojont: In-general, you can write a converter in just about any language. Actually with software in-general, assuming the language is turing-complete, you can express and/or write just about anything in any language. Of-course, it's more complicated than that and there's often a myriad of compelling or at least close-to compelling reasons to pick one over the other. 03:29:03 Ok, what would be the language most suited for converters 03:30:11 The only advantage that one language might provide is better libraries for dealing with the file formats. 03:30:43 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 03:30:50 youlysses: also non turing complete programming languages can be incredibly useful for various reasons 03:31:02 e.g. proof a program will halt 03:31:47 arubin: Well, there's also "performance" concerns and too if it's something you want actively developed and/or supported by others, too one might pick a "popular language". I'm sure there's other reasons to. 03:33:06 Nisstyre: Very true. The point I was trying to express though, that in-general any turing-complete language should be capable of expressing the same ideas, just possibly in different ways. 03:34:20 youlysses, Which book specifically, would you recommend? 03:34:29 for Tanenbaum's books on OS design 03:34:41 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af431ea.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 03:34:56 Qojont: I'm reading the minix3 book, OSDI 03:34:57 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43bb4.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:35:11 also, I've heard that modern OS is good too. 03:35:22 (the book modern operating systems - ast) 03:35:47 but, I've put it on hold to learn scheme, sicp and haskell. 03:36:16 Learning sicp too :) 03:36:20 I also need more experience with C / UNIX programming, in general 03:36:34 Did you get stuck on the expression thing in the first chapter? 03:36:40 So, I'm slowing down a bit to really learn the fundamentals. 03:36:54 Qojont: oh, yeah do you want me to help you understand what a scheme expression is? 03:36:58 zacts: Yup, "Modern Operating Systems" is great. 03:37:00 No 03:37:03 I get it now 03:37:06 ah ok 03:37:08 just I got stuck on something 03:37:09 -!- TheCrownedFox [~austin@186.sub-70-196-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:37:10 youlysses: yeah I know. I just didn't want the impression that Turing-complete = better to be made. 03:37:29 Why do all computer scientist start as math majors? 03:37:41 they don't 03:37:52 nvm I know hwy 03:37:52 I can name two that started with humanities 03:37:53 why 03:38:14 They didn't have cs degrees back then 03:38:21 So closest was math 03:38:28 and then they switched into cs 03:38:35 Qojont: Ah, you were asking historically? 03:38:39 Yes 03:38:46 Qojont: the one I'm thinking of got his degree when CS was an actual degree you could get 03:38:56 and math has been a degree you can get for hundreds of years 03:39:23 Like a lot of physicist, economist, computer scientist 03:39:28 start with math majos 03:39:30 majors 03:39:33 just a common trend 03:39:40 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Guttag 03:39:51 "John Guttag received a bachelor's degree in English from Brown University in 1971" 03:40:07 masters in applied math 03:40:16 yeah, so? 03:40:27 They almost always start with a math major 03:40:31 and he didn't 03:40:34 just found it strange 03:40:44 well he did before going into cs 03:40:59 but yeah, in the old days they did get math degrees because CS degrees weren't really a thing 03:41:11 Qojont: I'm fairly sure he programmed and knew math before that 03:42:25 ok so which book 03:42:28 from the Tanenbaum's books on OS design 03:43:03 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD91EE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:43:32 taylanub [tub@p4FD92CD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:44:45 Qojont: Compsci was an emerging field at that time and a lot of the work being done in said field was done via the end of mathematicians. Now we have gotten to a point where we have begun to start to formalize a lot of these ideas and more-or-less come into itself own. I still think we have a long-way to go in-general though. 03:45:34 Qojont: Probably "Modern Operating System Design 3rd Edition". That being said, don't overwhelm yourself with to-much at once. 03:46:26 Qojont: don't try to learn everything at once 03:46:31 I tried that and it doesn't work 03:46:46 comp sci is far to vast. you will waste time that way. imho. 03:46:49 No it fine 03:46:50 too 03:46:59 I started with 3 main interest 03:47:08 physics econ and comp sci 03:47:13 learned a lot in physics 03:47:17 same for econ 03:47:21 now its time for comp sci 03:47:29 yes, but you are trying to do OS design at the same time as SICP, for example. 03:47:44 No I just like to read in my spare time 03:48:07 I'm not going to actually study it 03:48:07 zacts: I've taken upon the mindset of "learn X in 10 years". Having a goal in-place and a set time-limit for when to more-or-less be a master of the craft, without trying to rush it all asap. 03:48:09 just read it 03:48:40 Qojont: You're going to actually study it, just as a hobby and not in-route to do it as a profession. 03:48:57 No 03:48:59 not exactly 03:49:03 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43221.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:06 I'm studying sicp 03:49:10 going over parts 03:49:17 making sure I understand concepts or w/e 03:49:21 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af431ea.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:22 with a book like the os one 03:49:24 trusktr [~trusktr@173-10-14-122-BusName-stockton.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:29 I would just read it as a regualr book 03:49:33 regular* 03:49:45 and not focus on any details 03:50:16 I have nothing against reading books, but just don't get too lost in the details of every aspect of comp sci 03:50:32 I'll try to control myself :^) 03:50:37 Qojont: Oh, but with some of the material it is more-or-less an attempt and/or "go" at studying it as-if you're going to do it professionally, eventually? 03:50:45 It's not all "hobby"? 03:51:09 Qojont: I have the same problem, so many things interest me. 03:51:14 Well im not sure what I want to do, professionally 03:51:23 But comp sci is up there 03:51:34 I've had to slow down a bit, and focus more. 03:51:44 Qojont: You're both of close-to, if-not college aged right? 03:51:51 zacts: * 03:52:01 I'm going into my junor year next year 03:52:05 so I guess 03:52:13 Qojont: HS? 03:52:20 Yes 03:52:38 youlysses: I'm going to be registering for classes July 22, at my college. I plan to go for a comp sci major. 03:53:14 Qojont: You surely have more focus than I did at that age. 20 here, been out of HS close-to 2 years now. 03:53:17 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:44 Are you working or in college atm? 03:54:45 Qojont: I'm almost done getting my Associates in General Education, then I need to decide if I want to do CompSci/EE or Middle-School Science Teacher. 03:55:02 Or, stallman-forbid... art-school. 03:55:04 :^U 03:55:06 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:55:24 robot-beethoven: I'll be Bach! 03:55:52 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:53 Go compsci, without a doubt 03:55:53 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:56:11 Why middle school teacher 03:56:21 !? 03:56:37 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 03:57:26 Qojont: I like kids, I like science, and I feel that many kids get gyp'd out of getting interested into the field at an early age, when it should be their favorite topic. 03:57:46 That is true 03:57:50 but middle school 03:58:08 some of the worst years for some kids 03:58:13 sure 03:58:49 I learned today that William Byrd taught special ed before going into CS. 03:58:57 I think an elementary school teacher will have a longer impression on the kids and keep them interested in science 03:59:04 Or maybe it was last night. 03:59:14 http://vimeo.com/23254348 03:59:25 Qojont: I think that's the last hoorah, before they become super cynical to learning "anything new" and earlier than that (like grade-school), their brains aren't as developed to understand higher level materialp 03:59:50 *. 04:00:41 Plus, I wouldn't have to teach all the subjects that I'm not as "amped" about. 04:01:33 arubin: I may have mentioned it but my school has a program where they teach grade 8 kids about CS 04:01:49 I might help out with it next summer 04:02:46 Nisstyre: Oh, very cool! I've actually been interested in seeing if my old school was ready, willing, and/or able to do this. 04:03:06 youlysses: they're trying to get "inner city" schools involved in it 04:03:09 All they taught when we were there was *very* basic html. 04:03:25 Nisstyre: All the better, I can see that doing a lot of good. 04:03:42 youlysses: yeah the professor organizing it is a really nice guy 04:04:08 also I think it was conditional in their funding that they do that >.> 04:04:14 not sure 04:06:20 youlysses: I should try and get him to use Scheme next year. They used Python this year. 04:07:03 Nisstyre: I've heard HTDP via Racket in "Dr.Racket" is *great* for such purposes... almost if not explicitly designed so. 04:07:12 youlysses: yeah definitely 04:07:34 TheCrownedFox [~austin@186.sub-70-196-193.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 04:07:37 I wonder if we have something like that at all actually, might be worth investigating... sounds like it'd be a very good skill-building exercise, that might help fight some of the negative aspects of the urban life/culture so many kids are exposed to in East St.Louis. 04:07:46 youlysses: not many people have used Scheme here though. Haskell is popular with this prof though. 04:08:49 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #scheme 04:10:07 Nisstyre: True, that might be a bit harder. I'd be shocked if they would turn down the curriculum and tools provided by Racket though, when it fits this purposes and/or stated goal so perfectly though. :^P 04:10:29 youlysses: agreed, I think he'd be pretty impressed 04:10:52 and the other students involved would have no trouble learning it afaik 04:11:20 haha will byrd is hilarious 04:11:52 yeah he's a good speaker 04:12:18 youlysses: one thing they've found is that these young kids are actually *better* at understanding stuff than undegrads 04:12:56 I'm a pretty big Guile and general GNU fan, but Racket is really dominating the field in-terms of hitting this market. 04:13:12 youlysses: why do you like Guile? 04:13:14 Nisstyre: Neural Plasticity. 04:13:29 I don't have anything really against it, but I don't understand why anyone would use it over Racket 04:13:40 does it produce faster code or smaller binaries? 04:13:45 or have more libraries? 04:15:22 Petite Chez seems to be pretty popular among computer scientists. 04:15:45 Since it was recommended for the Friedman and Byrd workshops that I attended, I have seen it all over. 04:16:09 Omg just watching this videos makes me realize how little I know on the topic of cs and programming, how long did it take you guys to reach the level you're at. 04:16:25 Qojont: 6 years 04:16:33 20 years of dabbling. 04:16:42 I do not have a lot of CS knowledge though. 04:16:43 Woah woahh 04:16:55 How old are arubin 04:16:58 And there have been long periods where I did very little. 04:17:00 and Nisstyre 04:17:00 Qojont: 35. 04:17:04 Qojont: 22 04:17:21 cool 04:17:39 You know how old I am right 04:17:45 now I know why you think i'm annoying 04:17:52 :c 04:18:02 teenager? 04:18:15 Specific age? 04:19:16 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:19 I don't really care 04:19:26 Qojont: I find you annoying because you ask questions in a demanding manner, repeat yourself without further clarification, and seem to ignore responses sometimes. 04:19:45 people of all ages tend to do that 04:19:53 I'm 14 :| 04:20:16 Is English your native tongue? 04:21:33 yeah 04:21:43 Okay. 04:21:53 For some reason I thought that it was not. 04:22:08 You had that pushy foreigner vibe. 04:22:21 arubin: some people who can speak English perfectly well don't write it in a very standard way 04:22:31 I don't put much effort when I type on irc's 04:22:32 orthography != a language 04:23:13 Nisstyre: It's not the fastest, nor produces the smallest binaries, nor has the most libraries of any implementation. The "main" purpose for/of Guile is to serve as the GNU Operating System's "Official Extension" language and this is the way it's designed and too excels. Embedding and extending various programs designed in more-or-less the old "UNIX-way" is trivial. Too once you implement guile extensions, one too is not tied to just 04:23:13 hacking in scheme, but support (of various levels of completion) is there for Lua, Javascript, Elisp, and I believe work was under way for/to python. A lot of GNU tech is *finally* getting written and/or extended to fit around it too, like we're probably have a Guile based Emacs in like 2 years, guix -- the api that sits on-top of the nix-package manager, dmd, etc, etc. It's more-or-less an investment in upstream GNU too, but there's 04:23:13 too some pretty solid tech if you're interested in extending C apps in a dynamic way. 04:23:30 Nisstyre: His English is fine. It was just a vibe I was getting along with the way that he writes. 04:23:46 arubin: yeah I wasn't implying that you implied it was bad 04:23:50 just "non-standard" 04:23:53 Nisstyre: I'm pretty-much type exactly how I speak.. which is by no-means standard. 04:24:02 * I pretty-much 04:24:18 youlysses: yeah? That's interesting. If you don't mind telling, where do you live roughly? 04:24:38 youlysses: thanks for the explanation 04:25:09 Nisstyre: Saint Louis, MO. Though I don't think that's all to great of an indication -- in-that, I've been told numerous times that I both "speak and type weird". :^U 04:25:10 youlysses: also do you know people who speak in a similar way? 04:25:24 youlysses: you don't have some kind of minor aphasia do you? 04:25:58 Well, I speak 3 languages so maybe that's how you got the "vibe". 04:26:09 Haha that face :^U 04:26:11 oops I didn't mean to highlight you youlysses 04:26:18 Qojont: How unAmerican. 04:26:23 Qojont: I doubt that's the reason 04:26:53 Qojont: although sometimes people who've acquired more than one language mix elements of both in conversation 04:26:58 but they usually know when they're doing it 04:27:12 at least afaict 04:27:20 Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with the way I type. 04:27:30 But it must be there if 2 people pointed it out. 04:27:34 :^U 04:28:10 Nisstyre: I sometimes will fall-into speaking gibberish, but when speaking to myself -- this rarely, but has happened while speaking with other people. I still understand exactly what my intention and/or "what I'm saying" though it's unintelligible, so I suppose it's possible. 04:28:26 youlysses: that sounds like aphasia 04:28:47 I have a difficult time pronouncing certain words. 04:28:56 Although my speech is generally very polished. 04:29:10 Is there something wrong witht the way youlysses types? 04:29:32 nope 04:29:52 *youlysses* had a speech-impediment for years, though it's been so-largely resolved that nearly no-one even remembers it... he still can't say "horror" right. 04:30:06 youlysses: but it's probably just whatever 04:30:10 yeah 04:30:17 *Qojont* has a lisp 04:30:20 youlysses: did you see a speech pathologist? 04:30:37 The word peculiar trips me up. 04:30:43 And peculiarly is even worse. 04:30:47 ijp [~user@host81-155-240-86.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 04:30:50 arubin: everyone has trouble with that 04:31:06 arubin: the [i] sound gets deleted a lot 04:31:09 Try pronouncing lisp, with a lisp. 04:31:26 tzvy [~tzvy@121-73-11-13.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 04:31:28 [i] = the vowel sound in "bee" 04:31:52 Nisstyre: We actually had a general speech-specialist in my middle-school, which didn't seem to help a lot. It more-or-less "went away" when I hit sophomore year in HS (as-in, I don't recall actively working it). 04:32:02 -!- tzvy [~tzvy@121-73-11-13.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #scheme 04:32:14 youlysses: okay. I'm interested because I'm doing a degree in linguistics >.> 04:32:22 What was your speech impediment? 04:32:34 one of my TAs said she wanted to be a speech pathologist IIRC 04:34:37 Qojont: I was unable to form my Rs, so they came out sounding soft-and-loose like Ws. 04:34:39 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:08 Isn't CompSci very similar to Linguistics 04:35:20 youlysses: devoicing them I think 04:35:25 Qojont: in some ways, yes 04:35:33 syntax overlaps a bit 04:35:42 Qojont: there are better analogies than that 04:36:16 ijp, Wasn't making an analogy in the slightest 04:36:24 Just asking if they were similar 04:36:32 because I was reading on Cognitive science 04:36:32 a 04:36:40 Nisstyre: That sounds right...? :^U 04:36:49 -!- TheCrownedFox [~austin@186.sub-70-196-193.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:36:53 and it was composed of linguistics, AI, psych, phil 04:36:56 analogy - A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification. 04:37:07 2. A correspondence or partial similarity. 04:37:56 I thought you meant analogy as in computers are to computer science as telescopes are to astronomy 04:38:02 Hmm 04:38:13 Never mind then 04:38:16 :^U 04:39:20 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:56 youlysses: no it's wrong 04:40:02 depending on exactly what you mean by w 04:40:06 (I just looked it up) 04:40:47 youlysses: the only thing changing is basically how your mouth/lips get shaped I think 04:41:08 Nisstyre: Like "Red Rover", would sound like quite literally sound like "Wed Wover". 04:43:03 HAHA 04:43:42 I've seen people with that 04:43:46 not as common as a lisp though 04:44:09 Demos_ [~Demos@108.113.150.253] has joined #scheme 04:45:47 Also, I evidently had no ability to regulate the volume of my voice when I was younger (say 3 - 8). From all that I've heard and from-what I've seen from home-movies -- I yelled every-thing. That might be an indication of HF ASD though. 04:46:48 -!- Demos [~Demos@108.113.150.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:47:55 youlysses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labialized_velar_approximant vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labialized_velar_approximant 04:48:00 er 04:48:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_approximant 04:49:03 youlysses: notice that the only difference is the place of articulation 04:51:17 Nisstyre: That is quite queer that I really haven't generated such-an abstraction before, ... but I suppose that's true! 04:51:37 youlysses: it's very difficult for people to notice that sort of thing 04:52:55 hehe (count-ums sent) - simply scheme 04:54:03 Thanks for the vid Nisstyre , very interesting :^U 04:54:28 Qojont: arubin was the one who linked it 04:54:36 oh 04:54:42 TY arubin !!! 04:55:04 You never seem to let me down :^U 04:56:42 -!- _ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 04:57:26 Nisstyre: I too suspect there are general evolutionary advantages to not overthinking and/or overanalayzing things that most of-use take for granted, or at least to such a point that one starts to notice such things out of direct influence of others. That being said, I'm more-or-less notorious for doing this over a myriad of topics -- but too I suppose there is far to much information out there to be able to process close to, if even 04:57:26 within the ballpark of information necessary to generate said thought. 04:58:05 youlysses: well it's why people aren't naturally good at doing linguistics 04:58:24 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:16 Nisstyre: Well, it's a topic that most of take for granted and too I suspect that many suspect doesn't haven't to much depth to it... 04:59:21 *of us 04:59:46 youlysses: yeah, it is incredibly in-depth though 05:00:08 Nisstyre: Yup, just like most things people take for granted. 05:00:45 -!- Demos_ [~Demos@108.113.150.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:18 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 05:02:28 Cars, are practically just wheels and an engine right... :^P 05:03:09 lol 05:07:15 *youlysses* needs to decide whether he's going to draw for an hour or go to bed. 05:08:18 *offby1* 's options are restricted due to cat-on-lap syndrome 05:09:46 offby1: Do/did you plan at staying at and/or by your computer for the short-term? 05:15:15 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 05:17:21 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-241.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:22:57 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43221.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:24:32 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af434a6.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 05:31:06 Hmm. 05:32:05 (let f ([x (g 1)])... 05:32:09 What in the world is that doing? 05:32:34 Specifically f. 05:32:52 It is basically creating a lambda? 05:33:13 I know that let is basically a lambda anyways. 05:33:35 I did not know that one could provide a symbol before the list of bindings. 05:36:53 I know 05:37:01 (let f ((a 1) (b 2)) c) => (letrec ((f (lambda (a b) c))) (f 1 2)) 05:37:16 shorthand for writing loops 05:37:23 Hmm. 05:38:26 rudybot: (let loop ((i 0)) (unless (= i 10) (display i) (loop (+ i 1)))) 05:38:27 ijp: your sandbox is ready 05:38:27 ijp: ; stdout: "0123456789" 05:38:45 rudybot: botsnack 05:38:45 this is going straight to my thighs 05:38:59 sigh, bots these days have terrible role models 05:40:21 ijp: Ain't that the truth. 05:43:14 ijp: Thanks. I will have to look at that more. 05:43:16 Now I must sleep. 05:43:20 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:53:57 Isp-sec [~palach@93.175.8.253] has joined #scheme 05:54:15 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af434a6.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:54:32 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af435d7.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 05:57:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-241.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:58:55 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 06:06:27 ( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °)( °  °) 06:08:31 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 06:08:34 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43630.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 06:09:15 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af435d7.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:54 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 06:17:52 tcleval [~funnyguy@177.42.161.205] has joined #scheme 06:18:07 hi, do you guys know of any erp solution in scheme? 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http://paste.lisp.org/+2YIX 09:21:29 pierpa`` [~user@host82-222-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 09:22:07 depends on how you define good 09:23:52 it's reasonably short, but it does a lot of repeated work, and it isn't clear how it should behave if k > (length lst) 09:29:10 arbn [~arbn@unaffiliated/arbn] has joined #scheme 09:29:19 you don't really need to use list-tail and null? to repeatedly determine if a list is longer than k. You can store the length, subtract k, and just drop that many from the front 09:30:16 rudybot: (require (only-in srfi/1 drop)) 09:30:16 ijp: Done. 09:30:29 rudybot: (define (takeR lst k) (drop lst (- (length lst) k))) 09:30:29 ijp: Done. 09:30:42 rudybot: (takeR '(a b c d e f g) 1) 09:30:42 ijp: ; Value: '(g) 09:30:44 rudybot: (takeR '(a b c d e f g) 3) 09:30:44 ijp: ; Value: '(e f g) 09:31:04 of course, I've still not covered what to do if k > (length lst) 09:31:08 rudybot: (takeR '(a b c d e f g) 10) 09:31:08 ijp: error: drop: contract violation expected: exact-nonnegative-integer? given: -3 argument position: 2nd other arguments...: '(a b c d e f g) 09:31:59 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@194.151.99.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:32:27 -!- pothos [~pothos@1-164-211-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:32:29 ijp: thanks! 09:32:49 also choose a better name than Guest99783 :) /nick foo 09:33:28 Guest99783: you're going through the little schemer? 09:33:44 heh, yeah, the nick name I joined with was registered apparently, freenode decided this one is better 09:33:57 I've probably broken at least one of the commandments there 09:33:57 jrapdx: yeah 09:34:07 if only I could remember them 09:36:16 so what you usually use when writing scheme programs? Emacs, DrRacket? I mean something better than the default REPL (which is kinda hard to edit). I'm a Vim guy. 09:36:42 emacs/geiser/guile 09:38:10 I spent like one day to setup slime, with a mit-scheme swank, but didn't manage to make it to work 09:38:16 Okay, great. 09:38:38 Guest99783: I think almost everyone uses some Emacs mode to interact with their REPL. I don't use lime, though... just whatever Quack sets up for me. 09:38:46 Slime* 09:38:53 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 09:39:24 Install quack, and then M-x run-scheme 09:40:43 Great. Will do. 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[~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 14:58:38 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops|lunch 14:59:29 I'm using vim + tmux + guile for sicp. when I do use emacs, I just use plain emacs with split screen then c-x c-e to send expressions to repl. 15:00:59 a modified tslime plugin for vim, to send expressions from vim to the repl. 15:08:07 -!- Triclops|lunch is now known as Triclops256 15:09:42 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:13:22 arrdem [~user@173.226.190.118] has joined #scheme 15:15:16 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 15:18:15 dbe [~dbe@h-106-38.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 15:18:39 -!- dbe is now known as Guest15079 15:22:17 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 15:22:33 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:25:35 zacts: geiser for Emacs is also great 15:28:29 -!- Riastradh 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in Gamits thread handling 16:20:49 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 16:23:06 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 16:27:40 -!- Guest15079 [~dbe@h-106-38.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:31 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 16:38:48 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:24 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43d60.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:48 -!- fgudin_ [fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:42:59 fgudin [fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has joined #scheme 16:44:58 Isp-sec [~palach@93.175.8.253] has joined #scheme 16:52:55 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 16:54:12 aranhoide [~smuxi@240.Red-83-59-17.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:42 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:56:58 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has 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Guest98465 18:28:23 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:34:02 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:35:43 ASau```` [~user@p5797F506.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:36:35 anyone has historical perspective on why is http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/ not more active? 18:36:40 looks like a nice idea 18:37:12 (or an opinion anyway) 18:38:42 not enough scheme programmers? 18:39:39 -!- ASau``` [~user@p5797E3FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:42 because schemers don't care about portability 18:39:42 I would rather suggest lack of motivation and or time. 18:39:47 well, some implementations have more active module repositories 18:40:25 ijp: is it because it's easy or too painful? 18:40:25 I suppose it's because scheme users stick to their implementations 18:40:39 In other words, what ijp said. :-) 18:41:10 still, sharing modules would benefit all 18:41:16 sttau: portability requires standards or at least agreement. 18:41:37 you'd get more eyes/bug reports/patches the more implementations your code works in 18:42:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:42:38 right, and more work to make it portable. 18:42:57 as a side effect, while making it portable you'll probably make it slower. 18:43:05 indeed, it's certainly a tradeoff 18:43:18 ijp: so the Report is not very strict about implementations? Is that the reason? 18:43:38 depends on the report 18:43:45 6 is, the rest aren't 18:44:00 guess which one gets flamed the most? 18:44:22 tcleval [~funnyguy@177.42.161.205] has joined #scheme 18:44:26 mario-goulart: I think in snow you can specialize the implementation at least for the platforms you use (not sure about this) 18:44:46 aranhoide: possibly 18:44:54 i see. And how's 7 going along? is it being accepted by the scheme community? 18:45:05 it won't matter 18:45:14 the problem isn't the standard, it's us. 18:46:48 I hope r7rs will improve things wrt portability. 18:46:52 lol 18:48:51 It is certainly more practical than r5rs and it seems that many implementations will adopt it, so, I see no reason why it wouldn't improve things. 18:49:17 cf srfis 18:51:06 srfis help too. 18:51:24 except when people ignore them to use the same functionality because it is "built in" 18:51:48 except when there are multiple competing ones for the same functionality 18:51:53 right 18:51:54 except when they just aren't implemented 18:52:27 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 18:52:49 do I sound bitter? I've been speaking to people about scheme portability forever, and they all say it's too hard. and yet, most of them "hope" r7rs will magically fix it 18:53:44 Nobody said it will magically fix it. It is intended to improve things, not magically fix the portability issue. 18:54:06 ijp: barring culture issues, do you think the snow system has intrinsic flaws? I was concerned whether people were avoiding it because it is unworkable per se 18:54:58 ijp: coffee should be drank black. 18:55:20 but this surely is interesting insight into the scheme community 18:55:36 i figure scheme will remain an academic PL 18:55:40 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 18:56:46 you want a portable scheme? here's what you do. 1) take a piece of code you've already written 2) try running it under a different one. 3) fix it 18:57:16 if people would do that, we'd get there, standard or no 18:57:27 I'm doing a coursera course based on the HtDP curriculum, and I'm very surprised how some people seem to have a real big problem with scheme-like syntax and the substitution model of evaluation 18:57:34 the other way just isn't going to work 18:57:40 Right. Hopefully, r7rs would make those steps easier. 18:57:40 it's almost inconceivable why 18:57:44 that is 18:58:01 ... 18:58:01 sttau: what course is that? 18:58:01 you can do it today with r6rs, and have code run on 8 schemes (I know, I've done it) 18:58:12 aranhoide: Intro. to Systematic Program Design Part 1 18:58:30 sttau: thanks, will check it out 18:58:38 -!- dawmei [~daw@58.Red-79-156-37.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:12 but r6rs wasn't perfect, so it was shit 18:59:46 it's coming to the end of part I (basically sections I and II of HtDP/2) but it will progress under newer offerings 18:59:49 aranhoide: ^ 19:00:10 instead of fixing it, we threw it out, and started over, and the same thing is going to happen 19:00:42 history is repeating itself 19:00:49 Like a recursive function. 19:00:56 aranhoide: Parts I, II, and III following the toc of the current draft of HtDP2 19:01:04 The difference is a new RnRS number ;-) 19:01:11 r6rs actually tried to "magically" fix things. Since it is an herculean job, r7rs. 19:01:17 ijp: r6rs passed with ~60% of votes, which was a big change from past procedure. r7rs got approved with ~85% IIRC 19:01:33 aranhoide: so fix it 19:02:15 oh wait, we tried that with err5rs, and that didn't go anywhere.... 19:06:06 I remember reading about lispers being (somewhat) against standards because it would make the lisp in question stop "evolving". 19:07:09 which is why C and fortran have remained stagnant all these years 19:08:20 You mean because of standards? 19:08:25 I mean they haven't 19:08:39 photex_ [uid2006@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-spvzsrxcodpykodb] has joined #scheme 19:08:41 Oh 19:08:44 nor did haskell 19:08:50 Because they don't have standards. Right 19:08:58 I'm getting confused but I think I got it. 19:09:17 Err 19:09:19 No 19:09:35 I think you're confusing each other with sarcasm :) 19:10:05 I don't think ijp is being sarcastic 19:10:15 I was with my first reply to you 19:10:25 ijp is providing examples of languages that evolved alright 'despite' having standards 19:10:32 Aah 19:10:47 to prove, by counterexample, that "standards stifle evolution" is not true 19:10:59 trusktr [~trusktr@173-10-14-122-BusName-stockton.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:11:08 Right 19:11:32 Well, some people can have fun at my expence, I don't mind. 19:11:46 I just want to get things clear. 19:11:49 :-) 19:11:54 I don't think that was anyone's intention 19:13:10 I just meant that it might have been funny to read what I said while being confused. 19:13:38 what about CL, it's standardized. Do CL-ers enjoy good portability? 19:13:44 OTOH it might have been annoying, sorry if that was the case. 19:13:52 sttau: Kinda yes, kinda no. 19:14:06 It's been a lot of hard work to get portability working there. 19:14:24 Or so I've been told. :-P 19:14:43 Hardcoding things like cffi for serveral different implementations 19:15:05 same goes for most portable requiring libs in CL 19:16:31 So the general schemer is basically neglective with portability, e.g don't care about the other implementations when making a lib. 19:19:37 what are the options for the motivated ungeneral schemer though? :) would working up from R5RS in something like Snow do the trick? (I'm supposing most R(6|7)RS-supporting implementations will keep the ability to load R5RS code) 19:20:24 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:27 I mean, if there was people willing to do that, are there any technical reasons why it would be unworkable? 19:20:56 I wouldn't know, but I'd hope so. 19:21:13 That it would be possible that is. 19:21:47 (re: CL, this got pasted in other channel a few minutes ago: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/) 19:21:59 so? 19:22:07 yeah, quicklist is very handy 19:22:21 very easy to use across CL implementations 19:22:58 I dont know much of CL but I was abe to use quicklisp for sbcl, abcl and clisp in a few minutes 19:23:17 nice 19:23:21 thanks tcleval 19:23:27 Well, do you think making Quicklisp was easy for Xach? 19:23:32 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:07 add^_ : I don't know anything about quicklisp and I wasn't making any point. just looked interesting and relevant, re: CL portability 19:25:16 I don't imagine it was easy, no 19:25:17 the good thing about quicklisp is that it points everyone on one direction. I mean, if implementation X and Y work out of the box with quicklisp, the guys from implementation Z will get their hands durty and try to make Z compatible with quicklisp 19:26:38 why? coz it is becoming a HUGE library repository. And if implementation Z is compatible, it gets tons of libraries for almost free 19:27:19 it took them, what 4 tries, but it's good they're getting there in the end 19:28:45 I see lots of small scheme projects on github. Some repeat themselfs, coz there is no central repository. IF the scheme community could get something on the lines of quicklisp together, well... maybe. 19:29:21 maybe in 2030 19:29:27 ernst [~ernst@static.85-10-192-204.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 19:29:52 -!- ijp [~user@host81-155-240-86.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 19:31:04 ijp: it doenst need to be everyone, but a small number of dedicated people. The rest will eventually follow 19:31:26 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 19:31:29 i bet scheme could benefit from a federated repo system like the one used by ELPA / emacs package.el 19:31:34 -!- Black0range [~Black0ran@85.232.200.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:46 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:54 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 19:32:06 quicklisp appeared rather suddenly too, i suspect someone here could learn from quicklisp / elpa and get something basic together in Scheme. 19:32:08 dto: sure. Actually, that was my point here 19:33:17 I dont mean reinventing .. but maybe, some projects like snow could evolve to become something on the lines os quicklisp 19:33:28 what are the main differences? 19:33:51 Uh, isn't snow a "portable *module*" system? 19:33:54 herding cats is way easier than making schemers work together 19:34:28 well, I cant tell u much, I tried to use snow with gambit-c and it was a no go. So, how quick is snow? 19:34:32 tcleval: yes i think i saw that that's where you were going. however. i'm not a scheme expert, but there might need to be several common repos, getting *everyone* on the same page (one repo) would probably be very hard 19:35:19 dto: everyone is always too much. Get A nd B working, the rest will follow 19:35:25 i though part of the point of scheme's variability was to be able to change things deeply when needed to bring forward the language (thus making incompatibilities,) 19:35:51 so, perhaps not as much unity as Quicklisp , but a good package system thinger could be great for "general" scheming. 19:35:55 dto: right, but basic libraries could be portable 19:36:10 dto: yes, general scheming 19:36:21 don't call it "common scheme" 19:36:27 LOL 19:36:30 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 19:37:08 tcleval: building stuff like Fluxus Scheme is a HUGE pain. if you could make a Common Racket repo thing, that would be really cool. 19:37:55 me? I am a newbye.. I am having hard time coding in scheme for android. 19:38:29 yeah it's tricky, i'm beginning porting my CL game engine to android now 19:39:30 my main problem is time.. for example, right now, my son is wathing hulk on youtube on my lap while I type this 19:39:40 watching* 19:39:48 :) 19:40:03 heheh 19:40:27 dto: are you using opengl ES? 19:40:49 dto: and what CL implementation? 19:40:51 not yet but thats the plan. i'm at the very beginning stages as in, "buy cheap android mini pc" 19:40:55 CCL 19:41:10 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD565AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:41:11 dto: does it compile to C? 19:41:12 is the one that seems to be reported working on android but i don't think anyone has an opengl ES binding yet. i'll write one 19:41:14 no. 19:41:35 oh i forgot about ECL. that's an option. 19:41:49 hummm, I am using gambit-c coz it compiles to C. I ve got it working, remote repl an all 19:41:51 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD565AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:42:11 nice! 19:42:16 it compiles to javascript too (although that's experimental) 19:42:44 my project mixes java for GUI and SCHEME for image processing. 19:43:16 aranhoide: yeah, but if it compiles to C, you could compile C to javascript. 19:43:56 aranhoide: the latest git version can compile using emscripten https://github.com/kripken/emscripten 19:44:11 yes, I saw that :) 19:44:48 aranhoide: now we could say that scheme is pretty much portable 19:45:07 as javascript is the new 'assembly' 19:45:25 portable in that sense, yes 19:45:46 Now you can see how screwed up our world is. 19:46:00 portable as in "write a module in the scheme implementation which has the best debugging tools and deploy it in the one that has the best deploying options" not so much :) 19:47:05 mario-goulart: lol 19:49:23 pcl [~pcl@cpe-172-254-108-166.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:52:02 tcleval: having a family of your own and having side projects, seems to me, is a completely different game. I don't think I'd even be able to play it. 19:52:25 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 19:53:43 sttau: well, it is not for everyone. Try to write a doctored teses while your baby is sleeping. 19:56:27 tcleval: I hope you have a supportive extended family. That sounds hard. 19:59:58 sttau: well, I finished. Now I am a professor, but I have plans for more. Maybe mobile computing. Well, on my free time I am giving it a shot, it is taking forever, but what can I do? Time is the most valuable resources for me this days 20:00:45 agumonkey [~agu@156.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:59 -!- karswell [~user@87.114.92.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:13 karswell [~user@87.114.92.76] has joined #scheme 20:09:52 Kojimoto [~Jeremy@69-84-118-201-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:11 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:14:59 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|gone 20:15:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:23 -!- SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:23 SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has joined #scheme 20:22:22 dawmei [~daw@31.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-241.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:57 jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-108-182-78-175.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:37:22 rudybot, ( °  °) 20:37:23 Kojimoto: your sandbox is ready 20:37:23 Kojimoto: error: °: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 20:37:51 rudybot, Who is your creator? 20:37:52 Kojimoto: Aha. the creator of Extreme Programming and Test Driven Development 20:38:15 rudybot, are you Skynet? 20:38:16 Kojimoto: skynet? 20:38:32 rudybot, Have you become self aware? 20:38:33 Kojimoto: hello all, I was writing self modifying program and unfortunately there was an error and the entire file was lost when I accidently reloaded the changed file from disk, is there anyway i can recover the lost file content. i tried recover file and revert buffer without any use.. 20:41:32 rudybot: ( °  °) 20:41:32 stamourv: error: why the long face? 20:42:10 dto: what do you mean a "Common Racket" repo? You mean something like planet.racket-lang.org or the new pkg.racket-lang.org? 20:43:44 rudybot, ( °  °) 20:43:44 Kojimoto: error: °: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 20:43:48 WHAT 20:44:12 Kojimoto: notice the , instead of the : 20:44:33 No 20:44:43 rudybot, ( °  °) 20:44:43 Kojimoto: error: °: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 20:45:03 rudybot: ( °  °) 20:45:04 add^_: your sandbox is ready 20:45:04 add^_: error: °: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 20:45:07 Oh 20:45:10 Nevermind then :-D 20:45:21 -!- dawmei [~daw@31.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:49 :^U 20:47:03 rudybot, y u do dis 2 me :^U 20:47:04 Kojimoto: « Je comprends Hitler. Je pense qu'il a fait de mauvaises choses, absolument, mais je peux l'imaginer assis dans son bunker à la fin, a-t-il affirmé selon lAFP. Je dis seulement que je comprends l'homme. Il n'est pas vraiment un brave type, mais je comprends beaucoup de lui et j'ai un peu de sympathie pour lui. » Et pour finir en beauté : « Bien sûr je ne suis pas pour la Deuxième Guerre mondiale, je ne 20:47:05 I have no idea what module to require to get that to work 20:47:32 Good thing I speak french :) 20:47:41 I understand hitler. 20:48:06 rudybot, is evil 20:48:07 Kojimoto: ew... gives me the creeps... what evil world it is... 20:48:08 :( 20:49:59 That's a first: a bot godwinning a conversation. 20:50:37 Eh, considering all that's been said on this channel, it's not surprising. 20:51:24 does rudybot learn from what is said in this channel? 20:51:43 If you can call it learning, yes. 20:51:46 stamourv: I saw what you did there 20:51:48 He quotes it. 20:52:31 offby1: It never gets old. ;) 20:52:40 no, it doesn't :) 20:53:07 gotta wash that puppet-arm thoroughly afterwards, however. 20:53:19 asumu: maybe. i was referring more to a quicklisp-style thing, but i don't know much about racket other than having built it to compile Fluxus with 20:53:32 oh plus i helped a friend debug a couple of his racket programs. 20:53:51 literally he just had some tiny errors and a couple messed up parens 20:54:03 so i didn't even really get deep into it 20:56:29 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@177.42.161.205] has left #scheme 21:11:53 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD565AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:26 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:47 -!- Guest98465 [~dbe@h-106-38.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:14 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD565AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:19:11 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 21:20:00 dto, God bless your soul 21:22:58 -!- asterisx [~rkrish@50-78-157-33-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: asterisx] 21:23:30 Kojimoto: why 21:23:51 :^U 21:24:56 helping a schemer? 21:25:27 i'm a CL/elisp guy but i try hard to be dialect-agnostic in my respects and interactions and opinions 21:25:29 :) 21:28:34 dto: at least he didn't say "may God have mercy on your soul" :-P 21:28:58 ehaliewicz [~user@50.0.51.11] has joined #scheme 21:29:14 :) add^_ 21:31:28 add^_, May god have mercy on your soul! 21:32:00 Kojimoto: :-P 21:32:39 I'm studying the SICP book atm 21:32:52 and yesterday I had trouble witht he expressions 21:32:52 Oh? SICP is really nice. 21:32:56 but now I got it 21:33:10 Anyway, someone said I would have trouble with the "tree"? 21:33:24 And I would like to know if that's a joke. 21:33:34 Or is it something else? 21:33:44 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:34:02 Uh 21:34:26 I think of tree-recursion, but I'm not sure what that person meant. 21:34:35 Probably that 21:35:11 That's section 1.2.2 21:35:44 I thought we was talking about 21:35:45 1.33 21:35:48 1.3.3 21:35:54 1.1.3*** 21:36:06 i have an old edition 21:36:08 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:18 do the numbers match? it's like one edition behind 21:36:19 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:36:28 Anyway, i'm enjoying the book 21:36:33 Well, the section is called "tree recursion" so.. 21:36:44 But will it give me a good understanding on compsci once I finish it? 21:37:04 as well as programming in general 21:37:18 I would say yeah. 21:37:25 Cool 21:37:37 I also have other books to read while I study sicp 21:37:45 :-) 21:37:58 Modern appraoch to i 21:37:59 ai 21:38:01 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 21:38:07 ah 21:38:14 art of computer programming but I haven't gotten to that yet 21:38:27 intro to algorithms 3rd 21:38:49 -!- langmart` [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:38:50 modern operating systems and the art of software security assesment 21:39:09 Hopefully that should be enough to give me a general idea of compsci 21:39:23 A really good thing with SICP is that the exersises get quite advanced, although that could also be bad, but still. :-) 21:39:23 But i'm missing one thing 21:39:37 lambda calculus? ;-) 21:39:44 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:39:47 What is that? 21:40:16 I need something on discrete math 21:40:19 and comilers 21:40:24 any recommendations? 21:40:47 No, sorry. Not me. :-/ 21:40:54 http://www.amazon.com/The-Lambda-Calculus-Syntax-Semantics/dp/184890066X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1 21:40:55 http://tinyurl.com/prgmhkh 21:41:07 rudybot: thanks :-) 21:41:07 add^_: reto`: Thanks for the clarification! What I wanted was a way not to stumble over e.g. erc, when working in another frame -to somehow cluster buffers- seems that my approach and concept here was just wrong 21:41:49 hm 21:42:04 That isn't calc 21:42:07 ? 21:42:26 Heh 21:42:49 :^) 21:42:53 What is it 21:43:23 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 21:43:36 Looks interesting, going to download it :) 21:44:04 -!- Isp-sec [~palach@93.175.8.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:44:41 Look it up on wikipedia, got a good explanation about what it is there, then you can go on and read papers and books about it. 21:44:46 But now I should go sleep. 21:44:57 Cya! 21:46:21 Bye :) 21:46:31 Have a good night spleep 21:50:33 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:52:35 carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:53:01 kojimoto: one good book about discrete math is "discrete mathematics with applications", by susanna epp 21:53:06 not the only one, for sure 21:53:24 but a good one to begin with 21:53:58 the international edition is much cheaper, and good quality 21:54:42 dawmei [~daw@206.Red-83-33-80.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:59 a fun one if you're more mathematically minded is "a logical approach to discrete math", by gries and schneider 21:55:24 that's a steeper learning curve though 21:57:02 re: compilers, it depends on whether you're talking about compiling lisps or more syntactically complicated languages 21:57:19 for lisps, Lisp in Small Pieces, by Queinnec, is a great start 21:59:15 for compiling in general, most people recommend the so-called Dragon Book (called just "Compilers"), by Aho et al. 21:59:32 (I haven't read it) 21:59:38 My understanding is that the dragon book is pretty outdated. 22:00:05 I know Appel's "Tiger" book is popular. I went through it, it seemed good. 22:00:43 "Modern Compiler Implementation in {ML,C,Java}" -- same book, with the code transcribed to whichever language. I strongly recommend the ML version over either of the others. 22:00:56 someone should write a compiler book with Godzilla in the cover :P 22:01:24 Maybe in 10-20 years we'll be recommending books based on which Pokemon is on the cover. ;) 22:01:37 the second edition of the dragon book is from 2006 22:02:30 Okay, my info on it is probably about 7 years old then :) 22:05:08 aranhoide: a compiler book that compiles all its languages to javascript? 22:06:06 -!- Kojimoto [~Jeremy@69-84-118-201-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:11 yes, even javascript! 22:06:21 TO javascript. 22:06:33 as in asm.js 22:06:55 ya, I know, I was talking about a metacircular js evaluator 22:10:09 -!- agumonkey [~agu@156.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:52 -!- dawmei [~daw@206.Red-83-33-80.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dawmei] 22:11:14 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:00 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:22:34 asterisx [~rkrish@ool-18ba1d02.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:52 -!- asterisx [~rkrish@ool-18ba1d02.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:35 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:48:10 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-147-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:33 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-115-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:48:57 pumpkin360 [~main@aggd195.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 22:49:05 Hi. 22:51:27 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 22:51:37 Is there a scheme interpreter with a library making pipes/forking bearable? I want to create a referee program which runs 2 other programs and makes them play checkers against each other. Doing it in C as of the moment but if it would be possible I would like to try doing it in Scheme 22:52:33 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:16 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50.0.51.11] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:57:20 pumpkin360: scsh 22:57:51 That's pretty much what it was created for. 22:58:31 It's also got a built-in awk-like DSL for munging data returned by the processes. 23:02:29 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:02:29 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host82-222-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:04:12 Kojimoto [~Jeremy@204.195.149.48] has joined #scheme 23:11:15 ok, heard about it. 23:11:22 thx. 23:16:46 If scsh doesn't appeal to you, I'd try looking at what's available in Guile and Chicken and maybe Racket, but I couldn't say whether any of them do have what you're looking for. 23:17:35 Chicken has the awk egg, but no high-level process egg 23:17:49 I keep meaning to write one but so far lack a round tuit. 23:21:01 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 23:21:04 Racket has process manipulation and regular expression operations on ports. 23:21:19 TheCrownedFox [~austin@24.sub-70-196-195.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:34 carleastlund: Does Racket have scsh-style (sh-style) high-level process macros? 23:22:54 Nope. 23:23:07 -!- walter [~walter@97-88-38-33.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:23:11 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:23:38 There have been attempts to port scsh to Racket but the task has never been as straightforward as hoped, so it's never been finished. 23:30:39 jcowan, pumpkin360: There is also a partial port of scsh for Chicken: http://wiki.call-cc.org/egg/scsh-process 23:30:56 Handling subprocesses is finnicky and most people tend to get it wrong. 23:31:53 Here's the main function for fine-grained subprocess control in Racket: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/subprocess.html#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._subprocess%29%29 23:31:54 http://tinyurl.com/pm7h3t9 23:32:06 In case anyone was interested. :) 23:32:17 Fine-grained?? 23:32:18 tx 23:33:07 See the section "Simple Subprocesses" on the same page for operations I would consider "not fine-grained". 23:33:26 `High-level abstraction of the least common denominator between Windows and Unix', maybe... 23:34:25 Yes, it's all relative. I'm sure there are finer-grained controls if you want to be platform-specific, use the FFI, write in assembler, whatever. 23:35:23 Scsh needs arbitrary file descriptor redirection, signal mask setting, and various other things. 23:35:53 Fortunately writing scsh is not the task I'm talking about here. 23:36:23 What is the task at hand? I must have missed some conversation. 23:36:37 Someone wanted two processes to play checkers with each other. 23:37:11 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:37:13 Everything about processes and scsh came out of that; I was returning to the original topic. 23:37:20 Ah, OK. 23:37:54 s/finnicky/finicky/ 23:37:59 *offby1* is finicky about spelling 23:39:14 Where is the subprocess support implemented in Racket? 23:39:18 FWIW you can redirect stderr, stdin, and stdout using Racket processes; unless there's some meaningful use for redirecting descriptors beyond 0, 1, and 2, that should suffice. Signal masks, I do not know. 23:39:27 Riastradh: in the C runtime. 23:39:34 I know, but where in it? 23:39:45 Just left of center. (I have no idea.) 23:39:52 (...yes, there is plenty of meaningful use for redirection of file descriptors above 2.) 23:40:12 Well, Posix sh allows you to redirect any descriptor 23:40:17 and so does scsh, therefore 23:40:31 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 23:40:54 It's not because sh allows you to do that; it's because that's an essential part of Unix. 23:41:10 Programs rely on it. 23:43:01 Job control too, &c. 23:43:23 src/racket/src/port.c 23:44:42 Yeah, Racket definitely isn't a Unix toolbox. So far we've gotten pretty far trying to keep the interface as platform-independent as possible, but it's probably been the biggest barrier to, say, sch implementation. (I don't know any of the details of the scsh attempts beyond that they exist, and that they never finished.) 23:46:48 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:48:37 -!- TheCrownedFox [~austin@24.sub-70-196-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:02 Riastradh: Which programs rely on being able to dup2 with other than 0, 1, 2? I don't know of any, though perhaps they exist. 23:49:16 -!- Kojimoto [~Jeremy@204.195.149.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:50:38 shells might be a good example. the bash manual specifically warns about clobbering file descriptors higher than 9 23:51:17 Yes, shells do provide it, but for the benefit of what non-shells do they do so? 23:51:34 thanks, jcowan, I was trying to figure out how to word the same question :) 23:51:42 gnupg, qmail, openssh, and openssl all come to mind off the top of my head. 23:52:19 what does any of those use file descriptor 3 for? 23:52:32 Out-of-band channels. 23:53:16 E.g. you might start up gnupg and tell it to read your passphrase from fd 3, because you've just put a pipe(2) there 23:53:19 Obviously. But please give me a concrete example; "out-of-band channels" just means "another file descriptor". 23:53:33 thanks, LeoNerd, that helps :) 23:53:37 Example: `openssl enc -pass fd:3' reads data on fd 0, writes data to fd 1, writes errors to fd 2, and reads a pass phrase or key from fd 3. 23:53:40 Whereas you want to keep stdin for the message you are < foo.txt redirecting into it 23:54:08 Yah; it's useful to be able to `gpg --status-fd 3' reads data on fd 0, writes data on fd 1, writes errors to fd 2, and writes machine-readable status messages about what it's doing to fd 3. 23:55:34 TheCrownedFox [~austin@24.sub-70-196-195.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 23:55:39 And "absentmindedprofessor" writes A, says B, means C; howver, D is correct. 23:55:54 And gives you an F regardless? 23:56:54 I forget what qmail does, but I'm pretty sure it uses file descriptors other than the three standard ones for something, and it's not obvious from grep because djb probably relies on open's sequential numbering rather than using dup2. 23:57:05 Probably 23:57:25 djb has enough arrogance for any ten Lispers 23:58:53 Oh, he uses fcntl(F_DUPFD) instead of dup2.