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#scheme 16:43:33 tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 16:45:58 es [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:45:58 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 16:45:58 aranhoide [~smuxi@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:49:56 carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:53:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2980FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:52 -!- walter [~walter@97-88-38-33.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:59:15 -!- Triclops|lunch is now known as Triclops256 17:00:47 -!- jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@38.98.105.130] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:01:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:16 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:44 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:06:25 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 17:08:48 There are advantages to having cons cells (pairs) as the basic data structure and building lists from that.....However, I can see Paul Graham's point in his Roots of Lisp that it may sometimes be attractive to just make *lists* the fundamental data structure and avoid the lists vs. cons cells distinction....is that ok?...i mean.....anyone agree that lists are simple in their own right and throwing nested cons cells at a beginner may SOMETIMES not be way to go? 17:11:18 Isp-sec [~palach@93.175.8.253] has joined #scheme 17:11:27 theseb: it sounds like you're addressing two different things, that is the best data structure for programming versus the best way of learning about data structures. In general I would use lists as the core of programming, but I would still teach a recursive element-by-element process of building them to beginners. 17:11:28 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 17:14:03 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:20:54 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 17:20:55 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:56 inarru [~inarru@93.89.95.250] has joined #scheme 17:23:07 Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has joined #scheme 17:24:51 -!- inarru [~inarru@93.89.95.250] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:43 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:29:26 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 17:36:25 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:40:49 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:32:19 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:29 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-46.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:35:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:20 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 21:50:22 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:27 estevocastro [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:43 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:31 -!- tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:01:59 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 22:03:16 *tenq* is back (gone 00:01:19) 22:03:38 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 22:13:57 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #scheme 22:16:11 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:17:26 ijp` [~user@host86-185-1-185.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:18:45 -!- newtothis [~chatzilla@77.127.4.237] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 22:18:53 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops|away 22:19:18 -!- Triclops|away is now known as Tirclops2|away 22:20:15 -!- ijp [~user@host86-184-183-54.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:20:36 -!- edw_ [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:21:00 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:23:59 What is the difference between (+ 1 2 3 4 5) and (apply + 1 2 3 4 5)? 22:24:28 *(apply + (list 1 2 3 4 5)) 22:24:30 aranhoide [~smuxi@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:45 nmeum: Well, one works and one doesn't, for one thing. Specifically, (+ 1 2 3 4 5) is the same as (apply + (list 1 2 3 4 5)), you need the list part. 22:24:56 Once you correct it, no difference. 22:25:05 What exactly does apply do? 22:25:06 (Sorry, you fixed it faster than I typed / read!) 22:25:45 It applies the given function to the given list of arguments. So you need it if you already have the arguments in list form, especially if they might be of any length. If you just have, say, 1 2 3 4 5, you don't need apply. 22:25:54 es [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:25:54 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 22:26:12 So like, (apply + my-list) is more useful if you don't know what my-list is. (apply + (list 1 2 3 4 5)) is pointless because you can just write (+ 1 2 3 4 5) 22:26:38 so it's like list comprehensions. 22:26:57 Um I don't think so, no. 22:27:12 o-o" Isn't it? You're applying a function to a list of elements. 22:27:13 I mean, it's "something that does stuff with lists"; beyond that, I don't see a huge relationship. 22:27:34 List comprehensions are a very different thing than that. 22:27:39 Mkay. 22:27:42 Thanks 22:27:43 carleastlund: thanks 22:28:01 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 22:28:35 A list comprehension, unless I misunderstand the terminology, is an expression that builds a list based on a description of its elements. Like { x | x > y } to build a list of all elements of the form x that are greater than y. 22:29:33 a list comprehension would be more like a composition of calls to map and filter 22:29:50 as opposed to apply 22:30:32 In Racket we use for/list as a list comprehension; e.g. (for/list ([x (in-list my-list)] #:when (> x y)) x) 22:31:47 I see o-o" Sorry, I'm a beginning programmer whose main language is python. I just found out about these and so I guess everything is starting to look like comprehensions. 22:32:04 hehe :) 22:32:57 c: 22:33:59 Python's comprehensions look a lot like for*/list in Racket. 22:34:44 I noticed. I'm starting to play with Racket, so I'll probably get around to playing with that too~! 22:34:50 tenq: python's apply would be something like foo(*bar) 22:35:05 Ahh. Really? Cool! 22:36:02 *offby1* nods gravely 22:41:26 Is it time to make a new paredit release? 22:42:11 not at this time of night; better wait till morning 22:42:57 what's new in paredit-land? 22:43:09 carleastlund: of course Racket's are better because they're more flexible >.> 22:43:12 http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit/NEWS 22:43:57 tenq: I'd avoid overusing comprehensions though, or your programs will look pretty strange 22:44:02 same goes for match 22:44:04 Nisstyre: well in my opinion, Racket's are already better simply because they're in Racket, but I didn't want to start a whole thing about it. :) 22:44:43 Also, I use comprehensions and match all the time. I think programs tend to look better when they use those, so mileage varies. 22:44:58 carleastlund: I use match a lot too, but sometimes cond is just better 22:45:03 foof-loop's comprehensions are even better because they work in any Scheme system too! 22:45:18 a mixture of cond and match is usually good for most cases 22:45:34 Certainly, it's best not to try to force something into match if cond is more natural. 22:45:53 carleastlund: I noticed that I was doing stuff with match that was more natural with cond, so yeah 22:46:17 Riastradh: portability is an advantage, but I sincerely doubt a comprehension system that works in all Schemes has all the other advantages of for/list, such as extensibility. 22:46:32 it is extensible, it's just not comprehensibly extensible 22:46:34 foof-loop is certainly extensible. 22:47:04 perhaps one day I will remember how to do it without the README 22:47:09 http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm, http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm (guess I should move nested-foof-loop.scm out of tmp one of these days) 22:47:21 s/days/years/1 22:47:58 I stand corrected, then! 22:47:59 -!- Tirclops2|away is now known as Triclops256 22:50:36 See for documentation, including how to write new iterators (IN-LIST &c.). 22:52:49 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:55:01 The example above, by the way, looks like: (collect-list (for x (in-list my-list)) (if (> x y)) x) 22:56:24 turbofail, anyway, there have been lots of little changes lately, many to subtly improve the feel of it. 22:58:32 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:59:05 E.g., slurping from `(|) foo' now yields `(|foo)' instead of `(| foo)'. 23:00:02 If stuff gets reindented, the point will tend to stay on the column it was at instead of going somewhere random. 23:03:56 ah nice 23:10:25 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:11:30 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@138.Red-83-40-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:38 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.48.97.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:43 -!- tomobrie1 [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:00 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 23:29:32 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:15 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:30 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:35:44 Does anyone have a physical intuition for what negative O() might look like? 23:35:55 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:00 Are these operations which defy the tyrannical asymmetry of time? 23:36:26 klutometis: What makes you think there are such things? 23:36:54 O() is clearly a rather fat person lying on their right side, looking at me 23:37:12 carleastlund: There probably aren't, if everyday experience is to be believed. 23:37:30 klutometis, so where does the question come from? 23:37:58 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:38:16 carleastlund: We got together for a little hack session last night to solve the zebra problem with a home-brew constraint satisfaction engine. 23:38:32 I speculated that negative Big-Oh might make for interesting science fiction. 23:38:53 offby1: Heh; what's eyes and what's cheeks? 23:39:51 carleastlund: There are paradoxes, though; if I examine a list in O(-n), for instance, this might take my program to a time in which the list hadn't existed yet. 23:40:10 That's a pathological condition. 23:40:41 Start with definitions...what does `g is in O(f)' for some f and g mean? 23:40:49 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:40:52 klutometis: you might treat it as sort of an inverse of amortized time. "Deficit time". So an O(-n) operation completes in O(0) or O(1) time, but the next O(n) operations happen "for free". 23:41:53 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 23:42:54 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:10 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 23:44:43 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:45:16 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:28 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:00 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #scheme 23:49:09 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF97755.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:52:58 Riastradh: g(x) is in O(f(x)), apparently, if |g(x)| <= N * |f(x)| for all x > y (given some N and y). 23:53:38 The liberal use of absolute value seems to make the distinction meaningless. 23:54:15 The definitions I've used never had absolute value in them, but instead required f(x) and g(x) > 0. 23:54:30 or >= 0 perhaps 23:54:51 ASau [~user@p4FF97755.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:55:40 Well, choose the definition that makes the most entertaining sci-fi story, then! 23:55:54 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d06707b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:55:54 carleastlund: Deficit time is interesting; sounds like the equivalent of acquiring complexity credits which one can spend without penalty. 23:56:02 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-4d067747.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:05 Does it have to be about running time? 23:56:13 `This algorithm runs in O(-n^2) dollars.' 23:57:07 Riastradh: Heh; given all the fuzzy Big-O math, I wonder whether economics wouldn't be a suitable application. 23:57:20 "Earn $$$ in your spare time! Run Riastradh-sort on your lists of integers!" 23:57:31 `This algorithm runs in O(-log n) engineers.' 23:57:46 Wait does that mean the algorithm kills engineers?! 23:58:14 Not necessarily kill. Cause to lose marbles, well... 23:58:19 Or maybe the engineers made themselves obsolete in the writing of it. 23:59:12 Except O() generally expresses a cost. So killing/driving insane would be positive log n. Really running in O(-log n) engineers would mean creating them. Perhaps in running the algorithm, log n more engineers are trained in the process. 23:59:33 -!- pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]