00:14:20 estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:22 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 00:29:52 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:52 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 00:40:00 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:41:10 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 00:42:33 xilo_ [~xilo@107-209-248-232.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:25 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@66-192-9-62.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:43:38 ericmathison [~ericmathi@66-192-9-62.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:18 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:50:26 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:43 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 01:04:23 -!- chturne [~charles@host81-157-142-137.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:06:38 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 01:07:14 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 01:13:56 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-192-255.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 01:17:43 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@66-192-9-62.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:40 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 01:31:12 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:31:49 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #scheme 01:32:15 -!- dsevilla [~user@66.Red-79-151-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:52 hoi 01:39:02 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:05 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 01:52:07 newbie question....function invocation (A B C ...)....I know A must be a *function* but can it also be *an expression that evaluates to a function*? (This will only work if lisp is guaranteed to ALWAYS evaluate the 1st element of a list) 01:52:40 ...rather than ASSUME it is a function 01:53:25 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF9759B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:53:32 Yes. 01:54:23 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:11 Riastradh: nice! thanks! apparently in common lisp you can't do that.....so i was confused why all lisps didn't do that 01:57:01 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 01:57:28 pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has joined #scheme 02:01:31 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:05:57 permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:43 ASau [~user@p4FF9759B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 02:19:40 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:26:41 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-158-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:28:44 -!- pt [~pt@84.114.230.154] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:31:14 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:34:23 tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:38 deepspawn [~deepspawn@179.13.177.29] has joined #scheme 02:35:02 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@179.13.177.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:23 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:51:13 theseb: It not only can be an expression that evaluates to a function, it must be. 02:51:54 jcowan: well that seems to imply that functions evaluate to themselves 02:52:01 which would be quite elegant imho 02:52:44 Not so. For example, in (car x), both "car" and "x" are evaluated, the former to a procedure, the latter to a pair. 02:53:22 i think that is true for predefined functions like +, *, -, and, or, not, cons, etc. 02:53:51 oh i see 02:53:56 you are saying functions evaluate to procedures 02:54:24 Actually, in Scheme we don't usually use the word "function" at all. 02:54:26 nope: he's saying that some symbols evaluate to functions in some environments 02:54:28 i presume you'd say lambda defined functions evaluate to procedures too 02:54:31 it being reserved for mathematical functions. 02:54:35 s/function/procedure/ 02:54:37 theseb: Indeed they do. 02:55:03 (lambda (x) (+ x 10)) => # 02:55:10 car => # 02:56:03 jcowan: does the Scheme spec specify the details of this "procedure" atom or is that left to implementer to do what they want with it? 02:56:04 theseb: where => means "evaluates to" 02:57:24 theseb: could you tell us an example of what you mean with "procedures evaluating to themselves"? 02:57:31 A proedure in Scheme can only be invoked, there is nothing else you can do with it, so its internals are not subject to standardization. 02:57:51 I've been thinking of this for a while... I wonder if it would have been cleaner to have (lambda (x) (+ x 10), car, cdr, etc. just evaluate to THEMSELVES.....besides...it isn't like a program can do much with the raw # anyway 02:58:20 Of course it can, it can pass it to apply or map or any other such procedure that expects a procedural argument. 02:58:45 estebistec: here is an example ....have a Lisp where the evaluation of cdr returns cdr, the evaluation of + returns +, etc. 02:59:16 That would mean that procedures and symbols were the same thing, and would require the behavior of a procedure to be hidden someplace. 02:59:34 estebistec: maybe what I'm asking isn't that big a deal....it is basically just changing the representation of the procedure.....i'm just proposing to keep it hidden from the user 02:59:51 a subtle point to be sure....i've just been thinking of this hard for a while :) 02:59:59 In Common Lisp you can say (apply '+ '(1 2 3)), applying a symbol to a list, but that won't work in Scheme. 03:00:19 You must say (apply + '(1 2 3)) to apply *the value of the variable +* to the list. 03:00:24 theseb: cdr is *a symbol* that, in a Scheme default environment, evaluates to the procedure that returns the first element of a pair 03:00:34 if cdr evaluated to itself, it would evaluate to a symbol 03:00:56 *the second element even 03:01:14 jcowan: " That would mean that procedures and symbols were the same thing, and would require the behavior of a procedure to be hidden someplace." <--- EXACTLY!!!! 03:01:22 jcowan: that is EXACTLY what i'm saying and proposing 03:01:34 jcowan: i think that would be nice 03:01:34 cdr is not a procedure. loosely speaking, it's just a word we can use to name one 03:01:37 That's closer to Common Lisp than to Scheme. 03:01:54 brianmwaters [60e97a7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.233.122.126] has joined #scheme 03:02:08 Right. If you set the variable x to 32, that does not mean that 32 is named x, and similarly the procedure that returns the second part of a pair is not "named cdr". 03:03:24 To evaluate a (non-empty) list in Scheme, we evaluate *all* its elements in the same way. Only then do we apply the value of the first (which must be a procedure) to the others. 03:03:57 There is no particular reason to assimilate symbols to procedures, any more than there is to assimilate pairs to procedures. 03:04:51 jcowan: are you familiar with lambda calculus?....in that i think we literally are just moving symbols around...so i don't think it technically makes sense to talk about "underlying procedures". 03:05:20 *estevocastro* guesses jcowan is indeed familiar with -calculus :) 03:05:58 jcowan: i'm basically proposing to interpret scheme as a "symbol manipulator" like lambda calcululus and never consider any "underlying implementation" 03:06:13 just pretend all scheme does is move symbols around 03:06:15 Yes, but note that Scheme is not simply a transcription of lambda calculus: for one thing, it uses applicative rather than normal order evaluation; for another, it has primitive objects that are not identified with procedures. 03:07:00 theseb: there are many ways to describe the semantics of the lambda calculus. It doesn't have to be about "moving symbols around". 03:07:59 Even in lambda calculus, the identifiers are not themselves procedures; they are simply part of the syntax of procedures. 03:09:20 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 03:09:27 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:10:06 grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-4-215.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:12:20 asumu: fair enough...i just happen to think the formal system interpretation where all we are doing is shuffling glyphs around is especially unambiguous, clear, approachable, painless, etc. 03:12:20 A language somewhat closer to what you are describing is Pure, which is all about arbitrary term rewriting (of which lambda calculus is a special case). 03:12:55 See pure-lang.googlecode.com. 03:13:37 heh..wow....i knew i came to the right place 03:13:52 only lispers would know language theory this well :) 03:14:22 theseb: yes, and people do formalize many programming languages that way, but OTOH it's not necessarily productive to think of real programming language as "pushing symbols around". 03:15:17 jcowan: to be technical, there are applicative-order lambda calculi... 03:15:35 True. 03:15:42 barglfargl [~brglfrgl@66-168-203-39.dhcp.gsvl.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:16:17 -!- tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:16:25 i wrote a substitutional interpreter for the normal-order calculus that could be said to "push symbols around" in the way theseb mentions 03:17:13 it just keeps reducing parts of the AST until it can't go any further, then it's done. 03:17:28 you could do the same thing for scheme. 03:17:47 tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:15 Here's a bit of Pure (which is applicative-order bottom-up term rewriting): 03:18:16 > (x+y)*z = x*z+y*z; x*(y+z) = x*y+x*z; 03:18:16 > x+(y+z) = (x+y)+z; x*(y*z) = (x*y)*z; 03:18:16 > square (a+b); 03:18:16 a*a+a*b+b*a+b*b 03:18:16 > sum [a,b,c]; 03:18:17 asumu: maybe i was trying to avoid having to think of stuff like the underlying procedure...people in this channel are good about making careful distinctions like the difference between symbols, variables, identifiers, etc....I don't have a proper computer science education and hence don't know all that stuff so well....i guess i was hoping to avoid that by just considering symbol manipulation 03:18:18 a+b+c+0 03:18:20 > map f [a,b+c,x*y]; 03:18:22 [2*a+1,2*b+2*c+1,2*x*y+1] 03:18:44 unrealistic goal perhaps...just trying to sort this stuff out in my head...nothing more 03:18:50 they won't teach you that in computer school :) 03:19:04 they're too busy showing you java 03:19:14 And here's an example showing reduction to disjunctive normal form: 03:19:15 ~~a = a; 03:19:15 ~(a || b) = ~a && ~b; 03:19:15 ~(a && b) = ~a || ~b; 03:19:15 a && (b || c) = a && b || a && c; 03:19:15 (a || b) && c = a && c || b && c; 03:19:16 (a && b) && c = a && (b && c); 03:19:18 (a || b) || c = a || (b || c); 03:19:38 > a || ~(b || (c && ~d)); 03:19:38 a||~b&&~c||~b&&d 03:20:03 brianloveswords: i'm a physicist by training...i think the way my brain works is..."OK..what is the simplest possible way I can explain something...." 03:20:21 theseb: the importance of making distinctions is about what you can observe in the language. You don't necessarily want to be able to observe that Scheme functions are somehow implemented with symbols or symbol manipulation, even if that is the case. 03:20:33 ..hm....i know programming languages are just symbol manipulators!...that was the convo i was having with myself this afternoon 03:20:45 theseb: which is why Scheme implmentations often make procedures fairly opaque. 03:20:47 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.150.186] has joined #scheme 03:20:53 well, not exactly 03:21:10 In a sense, yes, but we don't normally think of our 2 as a symbol for the Platonic notion of twoness; we just treat 2 as the number 2 without further ado. 03:21:34 "Cash registers don't really compute, they just grind their gears. But then, they don't really grind their gears either, they just obey the laws of physics." 03:22:00 --Anon. 03:23:31 Even cooler Pure example: 03:23:32 > x:y:xs = y:x:xs if x>y; x:y:xs = x:xs if x==y; 03:23:32 > [13,7,9,7,1]+[1,9,7,5]; 03:23:32 [1,5,7,9,13] 03:24:03 The first equation causes lists to be self-sorting: when you construct one, it automatically comes out sorted. Of course, normally you don't *want* that behavior, but if you do want it, it is available. 03:24:32 s/first equation/first line (two equations) 03:25:35 -!- barglfargl [~brglfrgl@66-168-203-39.dhcp.gsvl.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:25:57 theseb: here's a "substitutional" interpreter I wrote: https://github.com/brianmwaters/lambda-calculator-prototype 03:26:17 it's a horrible architecture for anything other than pedagogy, by the way 03:27:28 just look at reduce.sls alongide the lambda calculus chapter from any good textbook, and you shall be enlightened :) 03:28:36 :) 03:29:45 brianloveswords: are you saying lambda calculus is horrible architecture?...i think i heard it took a while to figure out how to express subtraction and even then it was complicated :) 03:30:06 i find it funny that it took some man hours to "express subtraction" 03:30:18 i am brianmwaters, not brianloveswords 03:30:24 and no, i am not. 03:30:48 i am saying doing a "substitutional-architecture" type interpreter is a horrible architecture 03:32:02 -!- estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:43 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 03:32:54 yeah, Church and/or Rosser and/or Kleene (I forget which one) figured out how to do the precedence function in the dentists chair, or so that's the legend 03:33:05 sbaugh [~sbaugh@unaffiliated/sbaugh] has joined #scheme 03:33:27 http://www.otterbird.com/files/5a805.png 03:34:11 it's actually not that complicated if you pretend it's a scheme function, but it was unprecedented to do that type of thing in the lambda calculus at the time. 03:37:41 -!- estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:15 The history of Lisp is all about rediscoveries of things. 03:38:15 sbaugh: that long image file seems to have crashed my imperatively-written browser. 03:38:51 yeah. 03:38:55 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 03:38:56 brianmwaters: i'm sorry :( 03:39:55 in mccarthy's 1960 paper he literally says "i don't really understand the lambda calculus but this one part of it seems to work really well in my LISP" 03:40:14 except, he didn't literally say that. but something like that 03:41:42 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD91FCF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:42:24 taylanub [tub@p4FD91CD4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:42:58 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 03:44:33 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:44:44 *rszeno* sbaugh, is big 3.6M but nice, :) 03:48:53 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:49:38 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Bed-time...? o/] 03:49:42 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:50:49 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 03:59:53 brianmwaters: that's interesting 03:59:56 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43c30.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:39 there's actually a number of versions of the precedence function, i don't know which one was invented first 04:01:30 but the easiest one uses a pair that is initialized to (0, 0), and continually does a "shift-and-increment" 04:01:47 (0, 0) -> (0, 1) -> (1, 2) -> (2, 3) -> etc 04:02:10 when the cdr is equal to n, the car is equal to n - 1. hence precedence function 04:02:38 and then to get from that to subtraction you can used the standard recursive subtraction function from the little schemer or anywhere else. 04:03:04 the story is, that's when they realized the power of the lambda calculus 04:04:11 (maybe it's initialized to (0, 1), but you get the idea) 04:04:26 But they still don't know the power of the Dark Side. 04:04:44 I'LL NEVER JOIN YOU 04:06:31 in this case the dark side would be Common Lisp, no? 04:06:56 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43c30.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:04 my hat is all in for Scheme if that is what you mean...i'm done with CL 04:07:06 No, it's the Force. You can't shoot lightning from your fingertips with CL. 04:07:20 Or Scheme, either. 04:08:17 *estevocastro* is intrigued now 04:09:42 you can shoot lightning from your fingertips with circuits and electronics 04:09:48 so by extension, sheme too. 04:09:57 now that would be a cool arduino project 04:10:53 -!- permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has left #scheme 04:11:37 No, I'm pretty sure if you put any electronics on your fingertips capable of 6-foot arcs, you just electrocute yourself. 04:12:28 unless you're ian macdiarmid 04:13:04 so is the Dark Force something to do with fexprs? 04:14:23 You all seem to be confused. The Force is not a programming language. It's a mystical power that Darth Vader tried to use against Luke Skywalker. Watch the movies, people! 04:15:08 hey, gerald jay sussman says programming is like magic 04:18:42 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:39 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has joined #scheme 04:22:13 I don't know macros yet but i do know that Scheme has something called "hygenic" macros....please tell me those are as powerful as any macro features common lisp has 04:22:19 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:28 please tell me hygenic does not = ..."lame" or "wimpy" 04:22:34 theseb: They can be. 04:22:40 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has joined #scheme 04:22:42 or "watered down" 04:22:54 theseb: hygienic macros are _more_ powerful, not less 04:23:00 theseb: most schemes have non-hygienic macros as well 04:23:00 ah good 04:23:12 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:15 define powerful :) 04:23:37 You can write macros in hygienic macro systems that you could never write in unhygienic ones. 04:23:52 Most Schemes have one way or another to escape hygiene. My personal feeling is that most of the things you can do with that are not really worth doing. 04:24:23 And the dangers of non-hygienic macros are very great, especially in an environment like Scheme with no packages and only one namespace. 04:24:29 There's "escaping hygiene", and there's "escaping hygiene". 04:26:07 The Racket object systems, unit system, generics system pretty much everything interesting is based on hygienic macros and a disciplined way of breaking out of the _default_ scope of bindings, while still maintaining a disciplined notion of scope (it never goes back to "just symbols" like in Lisp). 04:26:56 I wouldn't say that object and module systems are "not really worth doing", but you pretty much can't do them well with just default Scheme hygiene. 04:27:50 Welll, I don't agree that that is "everything interesting" 04:29:18 Personally I am a toiler in the procedural vineyard most of the time. 04:29:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:29:54 And while I agree that a module system is useful, I am quite content with the relative simplicity of R7RS-small. 04:30:07 why is it not correct to call scheme "operators" by the term "functions"? 04:30:19 My point is that it is useful for a macro system to be able to express things like object systems and macros. 04:30:35 theseb: er, what do you mean by "operators"? 04:30:36 We reserve "function" for the mathematical notion, "procedure" for its implementation in Scheme. Just conventional language. 04:30:40 because they may do more or less than returning a value 04:30:41 Similarly we call conses "pairs". 04:30:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-151-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 04:31:03 carleastlund: +, car, cdr, *, cons 04:31:06 estevocastro: Good point 04:32:41 estevocastro: well..in a purely functional language MOST of the operators would ONLY return a value 04:33:04 scheme is not a purely functional language 04:33:04 estevocastro: so it might be more ok to think 'functions' in purely functional languages 04:33:06 theseb: Right. Scheme isn't one of those, so we don't call the operators functions. 04:33:07 Right, but no Lisp has or ever will be purel functional 04:33:17 even in a purely functional language you can have "functions" that never return 04:33:28 jcowan: that's just false 04:33:46 even in math the distinction between operators and functions is pretty arbitrary, or at least i'd argue 04:33:47 carleastlund: For example? 04:33:49 You think there's never been a functional implementation of some subset of Lisp? 04:33:56 Easy example would be ACL2. 04:34:04 Oh yes, but "subset" is the operative word. 04:34:24 Everything's a subset of something else. 04:34:35 it depends on your interpretation of the term "lisp" 04:34:39 Similarly, Owl Lisp is a subset of R5RS and is purely functional. 04:34:48 brianmwaters: Granted 04:35:08 I mean if you simply define Lisp to mean "impure thing", then sure, anything pure is therefore only a subset of a Lisp. But ACL2 is based on "Applicative Common Lisp", which seems like a Lisp to me, and is pure. 04:35:13 if you take things like Scheme, Common Lisp, Clojure, Arc, etc. to all be "Lisps", then you can make up new ones, and you could easily make up a pure one. 04:36:07 actually, an applicative lambda calculus with church pairs and a "type system" in the spirit of Greg Morissett's book is pretty much a pure lisp. 04:36:22 execept no macros (prepping for tomatoes) 04:36:36 carleastlund: i didn't know anything about the old dead ACL2 language but now that you said it is a lisp i have new respect for it 04:36:53 theseb: I have no idea what you mean about "old dead" there. 04:37:18 carleastlund: only lisps today still kicking are CL and scheme 04:37:27 As I say, Lisp is always about the rediscovery of the past. "That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die." 04:37:39 excuse me, i meant greg michaelson. 04:37:54 theseb: ACL2 is a theorem prover used primarily by hardware manufacturers. Still has big-name clients. 04:37:55 theseb: Certainly Clojure and Elisp are far from dead. 04:38:11 clojure is kicking some 04:38:38 ACL2 has never been developed as a general-purpose programming language, so you won't see it used as such. But it is a Lisp, in addition to being a theorem prover. 04:38:41 Kicking some butt, I'd say. 04:38:57 carleastlund: That's the point I was going to try to make; it's specialized. 04:41:36 Sure but if someone ever wrote an s-expression syntax for Haskell, wouldn't that be a pure Lisp? Or if we ignore syntax, isn't Haskell already one? I mean you made a pretty bold claim saying no Lisp _ever will be_ functional, when there have been pure languages. 04:42:16 carleastlund: absolutely not!!!!! 04:42:21 No, I don't think that Haskell is a Lisp, any more than (from the other extreme) Python is. They both owe something to Lisp, but so does every programming language except perhaps Fortran. 04:42:24 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Quit: El motor por excelencia http://www.europio.org/] 04:42:31 haskell has a totally different type system!!!!! 04:43:17 But what the hell, I'm not really an essentialist (far from it, as the private said when he missed the target but hit the gunnery instructor). 04:43:33 I don't claim to know what the essence of Lisp might be, and tend to distrust people who do (even myself). 04:43:40 there are a variety of type systems in the lisps 04:44:36 brianmwaters: would the greg michaelson book you mentioned be good to go over? he does his book in lambda calculus...not sure my time wouldn't be better served doing scheme for the basics 04:44:42 I think that R7RS-large is beginning to grow a predicate-based type system. There are signs of it in the small language already, but that is the path I seem to be walking down without really having meant to do so. 04:45:17 How is it growing a type system? 04:45:23 theseb: depends what you want to learn, i guess 04:45:30 what are you trying to achieve? 04:45:35 Is anything done statically with the predicate? 04:45:36 s 04:45:55 jcowan: i have to confess not having looked at R7. 04:46:24 R7 is sweet 04:46:29 brianmwaters: want to understand the basics of Lisp and languages in general really well....not sure what lambda calculus offers except maybe the purest possible language....but now it sounds like i should just google for "pure lisp" instead 04:46:36 estevocastro: Thanks 04:46:39 can't wait for the big language and snow 04:46:52 carleastlund: No, I'm speaking of dynamic types. 04:47:05 brianmwaters: since "pure lisp" might be "pure" enough 04:47:37 theseb: the lambda calculus offers the simplest possible core by which recursive functions can be understood. So for understanding the mathematical underpinnings of programming, it is a good starting point. 04:47:45 In R6, one of the barriers to adoption that we identified is the condition system: you have to do conditions R6's way, and the hell with whatever system you have already adopted. 04:47:59 (well, _a_ simple core, it's probably not the only one) 04:48:33 theseb: lambda calculus might not be the best introduction to programming language theory, but it is the theoretical foundation for the whole field. so if that's what you're interested in (??) you should take a look at some point. 04:48:35 carleastlund: I am inclined to disagree: the simplest system is not by any means necessarily the best pedagogically. Arguably, supercombinators are simpler than lambdas, but who would start beginners off with them? 04:48:43 carleastlund: definitely not the only one...Turing Machines...Register Machines.....etc. 04:49:11 jcowan: yw, keep rocking. from skimming the discussion list I imagine what an atrocious amount of work it must have been 04:49:13 So in R7 we have started off with condition predicates that don't have constructors. 04:49:28 estevocastro: The trick is not to look ahead too far. 04:49:43 theseb: those don't aid in understanding recursive functions as used in programs _at all_. No one programs by specifying state transitions as in turing machines. People write functions that are applied to arguments. 04:50:50 carleastlund: yes..i think the motivation for McCarthy's 1960 paper was to tweak lambda calculus just enough to make it practical yet still theoretically useful too 04:51:04 Eh, you'd be surprised by how many programmers think recursion an arcane technique they never use and never want to use. Particularly people who write code centered on event loops. 04:51:16 carleastlund: so loosely speaking...Lisp is a derivative model of lambda calculus for computability theory 04:51:20 They still write functions though. 04:51:22 A whole generation has grown up believing that inverted control is the way of the professional. 04:51:39 jcowan: inverted control? 04:51:51 Callbacks. 04:51:51 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 04:52:20 jcowan: i take it you aren't a big fan of asynchronous programming? 04:52:35 Ironic that people who write code using callbacks don't use functional languages, given that callbacks are closures. 04:52:53 jcowan: besides the fact that is is error prone, painful, feels unnatural and ...well you get the idea 04:53:04 hmm maybe it does suck 04:53:48 you hatin' in CPS? 04:53:54 *on CPS? 04:54:08 Not at all, I just want my compiler to do the CPS conversion myself. 04:54:12 s/myself/itself 04:54:18 brianmwaters: i'm cool with child protective services 04:54:43 Don't be. They suck too. 04:54:49 lol 04:55:32 That said, I'm not a fan of raw call/cc either. Coroutines are my delight, which is one reason I like Lua so much (no, it's not a Lisp). 04:55:50 i'm still working on it, but i'm pretty sure there's a use case for CPS in real code. 04:55:58 what is CPS? 04:56:05 or stackless python 04:56:06 ie, the simplest/most natural way to write a certain thing would be in cps 04:56:13 continuation passing style 04:56:14 <3 04:56:17 ah ok 04:57:49 It's also the reason I like shell programming so much, even if sh is a painful and ugly programming language. 04:58:17 jcowan: no sh is a powerful and ugly language. 04:58:19 I have a deeply back-burnered project to write a shell that's programmed in Lua (in the sense that scsh is programmed in Scheme, but with hybrid syntax) 04:58:51 Not powerful in itself, but powerful because it can coroutine the 1000+ command-line programs available to it. 04:59:26 the first nontrivial thing I did in Scheme was a coroutine library on top of continuations 04:59:27 http://pastebin.com/f774fd6c1 04:59:38 (proof of concept) 05:00:01 theseb: you said you wanted to learn about languages in general. If you have the patience for a book, you might look at PLAI. One because it's a nice book, but also because it's free: http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/ 05:00:03 That's why I said "raw call/cc" 05:00:16 ya I know 05:00:24 I was not arguing 05:00:36 Good, I try to never argue 05:00:40 asumu: I want to read that. 05:01:08 how should one use callbacks in code? 05:01:10 estevocastro: Maybe that should become an R7RS-large library. What say you? 05:01:13 s/how/when/ 05:01:40 asumu: is that a good one? I *wanted* to like that book but last night I read this in the introduction..."We will include mistakes, not because I dont know the answer, but because this is the best way for you to learn. " 05:01:47 jcowan, Never argue? Them's fightin' words! 05:01:51 zacts, theseb : also, I forgot that there's a 2nd edition http://cs.brown.edu/courses/cs173/2012/book/ 05:02:02 asumu: i'm all about doing work but I don't like a cattle prod jammed up my bum 05:02:44 carleastlund: It doesn't help. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." The only thing I try to do is to explain to people what I think, try to figure out what they think, and frequently change my mind. 05:02:49 jcowan: I suppose the thread SRFI subsumes that? (although I knew Gambit had threads when I did that and I still did it) 05:03:17 theseb: it's important to know when methods (that may seem obvious) fail. I think it helps. YMMV. 05:03:22 Well, that's a disputed point, but you probably don't want switching threads to do dynamic winds and unwinds. 05:03:54 jcowan: please feel free to take anything I say that includes the phrase "them's fightin' words" as a joke, as I rarely use that phrase in strict seriousness. 05:04:01 theseb: also, I consider it a good book, but of course I have my biases (I learned PL from the book, I know the author, etc.) 05:04:17 carleastlund: Yeah, I got the joke, but responded seriously anyway. Seriousness does not exclude humor. 05:04:29 zacts, when you write something event driven 05:04:53 asumu: what is PL? 05:04:53 I agree. Just making sure it didn't completely sail past. I hate to waste a joke. (I'd say a good joke, but in this case that probably doesn't apply.) 05:04:55 -!- brianmwaters [60e97a7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.233.122.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:05:00 asumu: programming language theory? 05:05:09 cool 05:05:18 theseb: Programming Languages. It's a common abbreviation for the field. 05:05:30 ah 05:05:42 Actually, it's much more limited than the name would suggest. 05:06:08 The theory of programming languages in general is much wider than PLT as generally understood, is perhaps a better way to put it. 05:11:17 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:37 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has joined #scheme 05:17:30 jcowan: (sorry, I missed your reply) well, I don't think I even knew about dynamic-wind when I wrote that and I don't suppose that library would be any better in that respect 05:18:38 Olin Shivers's paper on continuations and threads makes it clear why they aren't the same thing; like most of his papers, it's extremely accessible and non-gedanken. 05:18:38 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:50 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has joined #scheme 05:18:54 -!- deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:16 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.68.24.247] has joined #scheme 05:19:24 jcowan: will look into that, thanks 05:23:56 I particularly like this remark, in connection with previous comments: 05:23:56 There are no new ideas. The Tops-20 operating system employed multiple con- 05:23:57 tinuations over twenty years ago [Jsys]. Tops-20 system calls were invoked with 05:23:57 the jsys instruction, which pushed the current program-counter onto the stack and 05:23:57 trapped into the kernel. If the system call completed successfully, the operating 05:23:57 system returned to the user program at word pc+2, that is, skipping the word fol- 05:23:58 lowing the jsys call. If the system call caused an error, the OS returned to the user 05:24:00 program at pc+1. Typical useage was to place a branch to error-handling code im- 05:24:02 mediately after the jsys instruction. The rest of the program handling the normal 05:24:04 case would simply follow after this branch. 05:24:06 In short, the programmer passed two continuations to the system call: a success 05:24:08 and fail continuation, albeit in assembler rather than a high-level language. 05:24:42 *nod 05:24:56 They gots a working TOPS-20 setup at the Living Computer Museum near me! 05:25:01 Coolness. 05:25:10 I never used Tops-20, only Tops-10 05:25:19 I dimly recall using Twenex emacs. 05:25:21 1985 05:25:23 But I certainly used tricks like that in my PDP-8 days 05:25:34 1974-77 or so 05:26:17 Don't pass ags encoding actions to procedures which must then discriminate them; instead, pass the actual action to be performed. --Jno. Rees 05:26:19 nice 05:27:22 Also the basic equivalence of the paper: threads are virtual processors, continuations are virtual register sets. 05:29:58 -!- xilo_ [~xilo@107-209-248-232.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:30:34 did you just use a ligature?! On IRC? 05:31:08 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:33 -!- grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-4-215.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:36:33 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:37:20 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:38:32 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:46:10 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:46:44 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.150.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:50 -!- kniu [~kniu@c-67-160-8-163.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:58:32 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:58:44 kniu [~kniu@c-67-160-8-163.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:59:03 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-242-52.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 05:59:20 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:02:18 -!- estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:52 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:30 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:28:53 amoe_ [~amoe@host-2-96-225-83.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 06:29:11 offby1: probably pasting from PDF or the web 06:31:13 All his s's look like f's, there. 06:31:23 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-99-118-103.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:43 *offby1* idly wonders which scheme has the best  06:33:52 Fortunately, that's one of the few questions I don't have to answer, as FFIs are off the table for the large language. 06:35:16 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 06:38:44 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:39:28 I'm suprised there are not even withdrawn SRFIs for ffis 06:40:08 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joined #scheme 17:42:38 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63AF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:21 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:59:46 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63AF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:04:06 deepspawn [~deepspawn@181.48.97.81] has joined #scheme 18:08:12 what are some other uses of higher order input functions, rather than just map? 18:09:24 (map ) 18:12:34 zacts: Well, obvious answers are fold, filter, for-each, and other list iteration functions, but are you looking for some deeper insight than that? 18:14:16 carleastlund: I guess I'm wondering if there are other uses for input hof's than just list iteration functions? 18:14:57 (without considering output hof) 18:15:42 zacts: In that case, I'd say they can be used for flow control -- e.g. lazy evaluation, continuation passing style, event callbacks -- for one class of example. 18:16:15 ooh, how do event callbacks work in a nutshell? 18:17:57 There are a number of ways that can work. Some systems have synchronizable event values, and you can "wrap" them with callbacks so that when they are triggered, the callback is invoked to process the event. In other systems there are a specific set of events, and you register a callback. Basically, there are a number of different ways of associating a callback with an event, but in all of them, you're basicall 18:17:58 providing a function as an input, as a request to call that function at some later time. 18:18:20 Flow control? 18:18:24 I think you mean control flow. 18:18:38 I see 18:18:43 Riastradh: Sometimes I get words in the order wrong. 18:19:16 zacts: The simplest example is the "big-bang" event-driven animations in the HtDP text. 18:19:36 ok, cool 18:30:53 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 18:32:13 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63AF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:10 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:34:30 ASau` [~user@p5797EC29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:37:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:27 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF9759B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:38:50 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63AF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:39:00 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:50:30 Riastradh: maybe carleastlund is using scheme at a sewage treatment facility? 18:51:32 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 18:55:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 18:55:52 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43c30.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:07 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 19:08:00 Gee, I was thinking more along the lines of a terminal's flow control, but I guess if that floats your boat... 19:17:39 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:41 heh, floats your boat.. 19:18:52 sweage facility.. 19:21:03 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:06 -!- ASau [~user@p5797EC29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:29:52 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] 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