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20:37:26 -!- victorzki [~Victor@c-a7f4e253.010-10-686c6d10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 20:37:57 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:38:01 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:38:16 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 20:38:25 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:38:42 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 20:38:51 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:39:08 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 20:39:17 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:39:35 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 20:40:09 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:46:44 tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 20:48:47 How hard is it for an optimizer to prove that a data structure is never mutated ? E.g. I see that while Guile can optimize (let ((x #(0))) (vector-ref x 0)) to 0 (and more complicated examples of this principle), it immediately gives up on (let ((x (vector 0))) ...). 20:49:06 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:55 taylanub: in Guile, any call to a top-level reference is considered to do potentially anything 20:51:01 so that limits the optimizations that can be made 20:52:28 Oh, so that's just because we can't trust `vector', instead of what might happen to x ? But is `vector-ref' not also top-level ? 20:52:41 If it's a literal, it's immutable. If VECTOR returned it, it's not. 20:54:39 True. I guess it has to give up if the reference is passed to any procedure where it doesn't want to (or can't) go look inside, which is probably an ubiquitous case, so it's not worth bothering to implement the few cases where it's possible ? 20:54:41 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 20:55:29 Guile might conclude that it is mutable but not go to the trouble of ascertaining whether it is ever passed to anything that might mutate it. 20:57:11 yes, that's what happens 20:58:40 I see. In that case, I think I could say I'm suffering from the lack of syntax for literal records. :P 20:58:46 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-55-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:59:16 literal records... 20:59:21 Bigloo has that 21:01:06 Well, unlike all(?) other compound types in Scheme, records can actually be immutable without being literal, so perhaps an exception is due there. (But this has gotten Guile-specific now ...) 21:01:38 -!- TheRealPygo is now known as pygospa 21:01:44 taylanub: as with most interesting questions in computing, it's probably undecidable in general 21:02:06 well, records are inherently live things in Guile 21:02:24 they exist only at run-time, given that record "vtables" are created at run time 21:02:35 Ah, sad. 21:02:45 so it would need a Paradigm Shift to do something at compile time 21:03:03 but that's not so sad, really ;-) 21:03:05 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 21:03:51 Well I have a case where immutable records are ubiquitous and where an optimizer that can look into them would potentially be a big win. 21:04:16 I have whole libraries of those cases 21:05:11 The fact that records "exist only at runtime" does not affect the compiler's ability to reason about them. Most of what a compiler deals with is things that exist at runtime, that's what compilation is all about. 21:05:43 sure, but in Guile, it's the record vtable that tells whether a record is immutable or not 21:06:43 anyway, taylanub, consider, can the object ever leave the function? normally/via exceptions/whatever. Can the function take that could result in mutating the object? (If the function is toplevel and exported, then All Bets Are Off (tm). 21:06:47 Well, so the optimizer would have to keep track of which records were defined immutable. It would have to keep track itself, rather than look at the vtable. 21:07:32 for guile that means all toplevel functions, since you can peek inside modules 21:08:27 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:01 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:24 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:09:46 Indeed, being able to (variable-set! (module-variable (current-module) 'x) val) in place of (set! x val) kind of makes me cringe. :P I guess it's OK since it's limited to top-level variables though. 21:10:04 -!- Rubix_ [~Rubix@38.111.0.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:26 rndnickf393hash [~user@stgt-5f71be13.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:52 taylanub: me too, but at the same time, it's what makes Geiser possible :-) 21:16:30 civodul, yes! variable-set! has contributed more than 2000 patches to Geiser! :-) 21:17:19 c'mon :-) 21:17:35 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-18-12-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:36 tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 21:17:38 of course, what really makes Geiser possible is jao's tireless work :-) 21:18:16 *jao* pays civodul's coffee 21:18:20 How is variable-set! making geiser possible? 21:19:11 C-M-x! 21:21:42 racket parameterizes the ability to alter module variables. maybe guile could follow a similar strategy and have the best of both worlds too. 21:21:46 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af434f0.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:22:34 trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-55-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:02 jao: yes, i think we'll need something like that 21:23:58 carleastlund: not variable-set!, but modules of loose morality 21:24:18 haha 21:25:17 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af434f0.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:17 aranhoide [~smuxi@26.Red-83-59-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:49 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:50:45 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:54:37 davexunit [~user@pool-71-162-64-9.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:04 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:08:44 zacts 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