00:04:13 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:07:58 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:16:20 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 00:34:42 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:36:50 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 00:46:59 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:02 -!- jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@user-0c9aa04.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:56:09 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 00:57:15 es [~estevocas@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:57:15 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 00:57:25 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59:45 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:08:08 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:07 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.215.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13:24 -!- ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bxscawvyaonswzia] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:13 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@user-0c9aa04.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:21 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:24:06 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:49 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:28:51 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.215.18] has joined #scheme 01:30:51 mk12 [~mk12@CPE90840de85f38-CM0026f32b7b1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:49:46 es [~estevocas@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:46 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 01:50:33 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 02:05:42 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:06:17 Would someone mind looking at this short function I wrote: http://hastebin.com/miyuyibowo.lisp 02:06:43 I am wondering if there is a more idiomatic way to achieve this (shifting a letter N places in the alphabet) 02:07:43 also more specifically, i'm not sure if nesting a 'let' inside an if expression is normal (but if it went outside, would it be needlessly evaluated?) 02:09:18 mk12, your use of let looks good. You're exactly right, if you moved it farther out it would be evaluated even if it didn't need to be. 02:10:25 The function looks fine, the one thing I might do for clarity is use let* in place of let, and add more bindings to name intermediate parts of the solution so it's easier to read. 02:12:57 carleastlund: okay, thanks. I was thinking it was a bit hard to read as is -- I'll try doing that 02:14:49 mk12: looks fine to me too. re: carleastlund, I couldn't think of descriptive names for intermediate results. I'd make utility functions to convert a letter to "index from a" and viceversa 02:15:02 re: carleastlund's suggestion, even 02:15:57 letter->index-from-a and viceversa 02:16:09 note that you'd need to define them internally to account for case 02:17:06 here's a version with intermediate names: http://hastebin.com/rakobehipi.lisp 02:17:11 The helper function way works, too. 02:17:37 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:09 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:20:51 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:21:14 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:22:24 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 02:24:39 mk12: for comparison (I myself am undecided, you pick): http://hastebin.com/huputiqosi.lisp 02:25:26 carleastlund: yes, that makes it much easier to follow the steps.. i tried to do helper functions but they seemed a bit repetitive and maybe overkill for something that will only be used once. Looking at estevocastro's link now 02:26:34 mk12: I forgot the "else" branch from the first if, but that's the same as yours :) 02:28:13 estevocastro: Oh ok. Both look better then my original, not sure which i like better. 02:28:32 By the way, this is part of a Caesar cipher cracking program that I originally wrote in Haskell: http://hastebin.com/cutilidihe.hs 02:28:59 trying to rewrite it in Scheme now since i finished The Little Schemer and am trying to learn how to use the language 02:29:00 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 02:29:07 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:32:43 If you're going to write helper functions, don't put them in the let*, make them general purpose enough to lift to the top level. It's much more readable and makes them reusable. 02:33:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:34:44 carleastlund: in this case you can't define offset->char in the top level, because the offset doesn't give you any info about the case of the original char 02:35:09 you could write char->offset 02:35:14 Right. So I'd use different helper functions than those. 02:35:51 which ones? 02:36:28 Some that can be defined at the top level! For instance, if there's missing info, make it an extra argument. 02:38:18 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.63.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:32 Here are some separate helper functions: http://hastebin.com/wosudujure.lisp 02:46:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:48 -!- Razz|at_work [~tim@kompiler.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:50:41 [mk12, estevocastro: see above link if you didn't before] 02:50:55 Razz|at_work [~tim@kompiler.org] has joined #scheme 02:53:38 carleastlund: that's probably more practical if you're going to do more procedures in the same domain 02:54:13 estevocastro: It's no less practical than the other way, and a lot more readable. 02:54:34 otherwise I like the inner helpers better in this case, although I admit it's a stylistic judgement call and you can go overboard with that 02:54:49 There's no reason to use let* for a one-use lambda, just fill in the arguments to the lambda body. 02:55:36 well, the only reason in tha case is to give it a name 02:55:45 The only good reason to use functions for one-use things is to break up the concepts. At which point, really break them up. Make the helper functions their own, separate abstractions. Leaving them inside the let*, with free variables, does not make them more readable. 02:56:40 carleastlund: I see what you meant by the top-level abstractions now, but I'm not sure it's worth it for what I'm doing (a small program where I know it's not going to be reused). I think the first one you did with the intermediate steps was the easiest for me to read. 02:57:37 -!- pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:58:16 mk12: Yeah, I like that one better, too, there's no need for extra functions here. But if there are any functions, I just wanted to demonstrate what seems to me a far better way to use them. estevocastro, I like your solution of making useful helper functions, I just think it's important to treat functions as abstractions and let them stand on their own. Anyway, we've probably beat these examples to death now. 03:03:33 well, I see a case for having functions that only make sense in some context. this style is promoted in some of SICP (not to argue from authority). I find passing the explicit parameter around verbose _in this case_ 03:06:14 Right, so if you're going to stay in the let*, why use lambda at all? 03:06:38 i think passing around the arguments like that hinders readability for this case too but I also think that using an intermediate variable makes more sense than a one-off internal lambda 03:08:05 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 03:08:48 it would be different if the helper function was actually used multiple times in the body but otherwise.. Well i guess it is a slightly different approach because the intermediate variables give you the linear steps to the solution where the functions abstract the details from the function body 03:09:18 *whereas 03:09:49 carleastlund: in this case, because I can find more meaningful names for those operations than for the result values 03:10:18 Your names are all arrowed A->B. Name the result B. 03:10:28 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:10:53 that would work for |offset| but not for |char| 03:11:12 You have two offsets and two chars, one each before and after the shift. So, shifted-char and shifted-offset. 03:11:32 and using the name |offset| would be suspect when I'd be having several intermediate offsets 03:11:47 http://hastebin.com/qexijedige.lisp 03:11:48 "There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things" :) 03:12:27 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:59 carleastlund: yes, that's better, I just hadn't come up with those names 03:13:21 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:33 ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oxsiyjrpxkxgnpsu] has joined #scheme 03:15:28 forgot the else condition again :P 03:16:03 else (launch-the-missiles) 03:24:32 If I want to work my way through the characters of a string, should I use 'map' on (string->list my-string) ? It seems like this would needlessly walk through it twice (once to create, once to map), but Gambit doesn't have a string-map (assuming that would be implemented more efficiently) 03:24:33 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD56397.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:25:05 b4284 [~b4284@223-138-163-69.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:09 if I were to use something else I might try Racket, but I like how easy it is to compile to a small, fast executable with gambit 03:25:31 mk12, there's always string-ref 03:25:49 carleastlund: oh, what does that do? 03:26:08 mk12, (string-ref str i) gets the i-th character of str, indexed from 0 03:26:11 just like vector-ref 03:27:29 Oh I see.. and that would be O(1) rather than O(n) i'm guessing? 03:28:48 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4fd56ff2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:31:29 well, each one such string-ref is O(1) 03:32:02 applying string-ref sequentially to a string of length n is O(n) 03:32:33 you can build string-map on top of string-ref anyway 03:32:39 estevocastro: right, and string->list AND map would both be O(n) 03:32:41 if that was your problem with gambit 03:32:44 yes that's what i was just thinking 03:32:59 implementing string-map with string-ref I mean 03:34:18 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:50 or you can start with (define (string-map fn s) (list->string (map fn (string->list s)))) 03:35:04 and redefine it iff it is too slow for your purposes 03:35:44 the code that uses it doesn't need care 03:35:55 (modulo having to recompile, perhaps) 03:36:56 dkordic [~danilo@178-222-116-84.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #scheme 03:39:07 yes, this would almost definitely count as premature optimization for my purposes :P I will do that, though 03:43:04 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD94A84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:43:43 taylanub [tub@p4FD90702.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:46:40 -!- jeremyheiler 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[~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:31:49 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 10:33:05 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 10:40:09 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-68-45-152-123.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:48:25 -!- tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:49 Su-Shee_ [user-34111@pD4B88796.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:06:05 es [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:06:05 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 11:09:31 -!- Su-Shee [user18447@pD4B88FB0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:27:21 -!- jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@115.193.170.238] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:32:16 -!- Gr1zzly [Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-314-158.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:37:45 Gr1zzly [Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-228-110.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:54:21 -!- estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:06 aranhoide [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:31 skeuomorf: I was wrong the other day regarding the exercise you were asking about 11:59:00 normal order would have worked in that case; it would not have expanded unnecessary branches of the |if| 11:59:20 in general, normal order is a bit more "correct" than applicative order, although it's not used in Scheme implementations because it's less efficient 12:00:47 applicative order may fail to produce a "result" when one could be produced (more technically, may fail to find a reduction to lambda calculus normal form when one exists) 12:01:02 but when normal order does compute a result, it's the right one 12:01:12 so it's "good enough" 12:01:43 I meant "when applicative order does compute a result, it's the right one" 12:02:11 the other sentence is true too 12:02:55 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:54 wrong way around 12:06:03 if there is a normal form, normal order evaluation will find it 12:06:30 when they both produce a result, they should produce the same one 12:10:03 since every lambda term has at most one normal form 12:10:08 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:15:24 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:19 jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@115.193.170.238] has joined #scheme 12:20:07 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 12:41:35 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #scheme 12:41:35 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 12:41:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 12:50:11 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:55:03 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 13:04:38 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:05:41 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 13:09:29 -!- add^_` is now known as add^_ 13:09:55 Are run-queues an implementation of the actor model ?.. 13:10:43 (Run-queue, run-loop, dispatch-queue, dispatch-loop, what to best call it ?) 13:16:15 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD56397.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:19:02 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.98.135] has joined #scheme 13:24:50 -!- Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:22 Nevermind, silly question. 13:41:32 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 13:47:28 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:30 -!- fadein [~Erik@c-67-161-246-186.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:13 fadein [~Erik@c-67-161-246-186.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:03:11 -!- 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joined #scheme 16:18:05 -!- b4284 [~b4284@223-138-163-69.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:24 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:32:39 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:33:07 why did scheme choose #f instead of () for falsity? 16:34:22 '() is not false but the empty list 16:34:46 there's only one false value in scheme and that's #f 16:35:17 theseb: why didn't it choose false instead of #f ? 16:35:57 in R7RS it does 16:36:04 because it choose #t fro true? symmetry? 16:36:11 theseb: you see, at the time of the bigbang, there was unification of matter and energy, and all the forces were the same. so () was both the empty list, the symbol NIL, the false value, and the integer 0. 16:36:29 But with expansion, the number froze, so 0 became different from ()=NIL=false. 16:36:40 tupi [~user@189.60.0.155] has joined #scheme 16:37:08 and with further evolution of the universe, boolean froze, and so false became different from (), and symbols froze so NIL became different from () too. 16:37:23 pjb: because #f isn't a valid identifier, but false is 16:37:34 it's ugly. 16:37:46 you could get into weird situations like (define false true) 16:38:11 of course, once imports are immutable, you don't need to worry about that 16:38:23 so just stick it in a library and be happy 16:39:06 theseb: Pragmatically, it's problematic to combine #f and () since #f is often used for optional types. You can't return an optional list with #f for none if #f is also a list. This kind of distinction is why it's useful to have different constants for different purposes, rather than () for everything. 16:40:03 ijp is a little weird, when you do rm -fr / you expect things to go wrong, isn't it? same with (define false true), :) 16:41:26 on a related matter, I remember one scheme (name eludes me) that allowed you do define a number 16:41:34 But anyways, http://ashwinram.org/1986/01/28/a-short-ballad-dedicated-to-the-growth-of-programs/ 16:41:35 http://tinyurl.com/q6g56sp 16:41:50 C-Keen: wait..did you just latest scheme spec is moving away from #f to "false"? 16:42:03 carleastlund: there are multiple-values to return optional results. 16:42:04 say* 16:42:11 (values) vs. (values '()) 16:42:24 pjb: how do you return a list of those? 16:42:31 A list of what? 16:42:36 A list of optional lists. 16:42:47 Optional things should still be first class values. 16:42:53 if a list is optional, then don't include it in the list! 16:43:07 Uh, no, its non-presence is still often worth recording. 16:43:10 (append (when include-l1 (list l1)) (when include-l2 (list l2))) 16:43:23 The option type is a meaningful thing. 16:43:27 (member? l1 (append (when include-l1 (list l1)) (when include-l2 (list l2)))) 16:43:32 It is recorded. 16:43:39 when doesn't work that way in scheme 16:43:50 ijp: assume a when defined correctly. 16:43:53 You can't test membership if you don't know which lists are in there. 16:43:55 "correctly" 16:44:56 Let's say you have a list of employee names, and a corresponding list; for each employee, at the same position you keep an optional list of subordinates. So () means a manager with currently 0 employees, whereas #f means a non-manager. You can't interpret that data if you leave out the #f's. 16:45:52 the great thing about these adhoc convenience decisions is that they multiply like rabbits once you get started 16:46:15 Deciding that lists shouldn't be booleans isn't ad hoc. 16:46:24 no, not you, pjb 16:47:03 But but everything's about me! Meeeeeeeeeeeeee! 16:47:05 "oh, wouldn't it be convenient if we didn't need a predicate to test for nullity" "yeah" 16:47:22 is a decision at design level to not put boolean instead of lists to represent managers, etc. 16:48:05 of course, you could set up an extensible way of doing this, say an is-boolean interface 16:48:50 An easier way to give my example would have been "what if you need a struct with a field that is an optional list". Much less contrived. :) 16:50:15 carleastlund: you are keeping adding silly requirements! You can always do (list (list 'present l1) (list 'absent l2)) ! 16:51:14 So you don't want to use () _or_ #f, you want to use 'absent. That's fine. Now we have more constants, not fewer. 16:51:18 carleastlund: the point is that in structures, it's very rare to have to distinguish between an empty list and no list. 16:51:37 pjb, that's utter nonsense. I use option types in structures plenty. 16:51:41 And then this doesn't solve the problem, when you have to distinguish between a boolean and no boolean! 16:52:17 A boolean is a two-valued choice. If I have a boolean or "no boolean", I have a three-valued choice, and a boolean was never the right choice to begin with. 16:52:17 You don't want to use just 'absent either, since that wouldn't solve the problem when you want to distinguish symbols from no symbols. 16:52:55 it's a difference in mindset. carleastlund wants to solve the problem totally, you want it probabilitically 16:53:04 But again, in all those cases, usually you can just use ()=nil=false for no value, since it's rare those values are significant. In the rare case, you can use the wrapper or an additionnal boolean field. 16:53:05 You're right, actually, the #f option type was a bad choice. Real option types do require a wrapper. So, uh I'm going to back out of this line of argument, I didn't think it through! 16:53:07 probabilistically 16:54:20 If you compute the probabilities over the programs. But I assume there's a brain designing them. 16:55:08 There's no "probabilistically" in any of these cases. One should never use () or nil or #f or 'absent as "none" if it could possibly be one of the "present" values. 16:55:45 carleastlund: right, it's just that "oh, that case 'never' happens" 16:56:09 The real argument here is for all kinds of untagged unions, which are quite common in Scheme/Lisp languages. The more shared values like NIL=()=false, the harder it is to make untagged unions. So making more constants means it's easier to encode things with untagged unions of all sorts. 16:56:09 which is bull, but you can find plenty of people who will defend it 16:57:22 *rszeno* and here we go to the multi-valued logic, and fight with middle excluded :) 16:57:44 rszeno, I have no idea how you leapt to that topic! 16:58:04 #f #t #unknown, 16:59:03 all the decisions re using nil, '(), #t, #f to represent boolean values are conventions. 17:00:12 and main problem is (not #f) is #t, because of middle excluded, we don't have third option 17:00:29 true and false instead of #f and #f seems nice to me fwiw 17:00:41 t and () not so much 17:01:02 I like Racket's #true and #false for the constants. You can bind true and false to them, and they are in #lang racket, but literal values shouldn't have the form of symbols. 17:01:26 Unless you mean R7 is making them actual symbols, at which point, ugh. 17:01:48 rszeno: actually the problem doesn't go away 17:02:13 true, it add a new level 17:02:22 carleastlund: sorry but i don't know what the diff is between symbols, literal values and constants 17:02:27 you can't solve it by adding more values, you need a second dimension 17:02:32 so to speak 17:02:35 carleastlund: why is #true better than #t? 17:02:52 ecraven: because then you don't get people asking "why #t" 17:03:00 ecraven: because it's immediately readable to someone who doesn't know the language 17:03:28 well, if readability for non-Schemers is a concern, many things need to change 17:03:43 and "why the #" isn't much different to "why #f instead of false" 17:03:45 theseb: I mean that things like 5 and "hello" and #true don't look like variable names, and that's a good thing. 17:03:58 ah 17:04:06 Basically, I like "#true" because it's readable, but not a variable name. 17:04:16 "true" is a variable name, and "#t" is obscure. 17:04:22 (though I don't much mind about #true and #false, imho they aren't much worse or better than #t and #f... but better than true and false (which read like symbols)) 17:04:27 or worse, like I think algol?, where something could be both syntax and variable name 17:04:45 Also, (list #t #f #t #f #t) is immensely unreadable. (list #true #false #true #false #true) is much easier to read which boolean is which. 17:04:53 so you could write code like "if else then then else if" 17:05:05 carleastlund: well not to throw gas on the fire but taking your preference to an extreme would require adding # in front of the special forms too....#if, #define, #cons, etc 17:05:21 cons is not a special form 17:05:23 theseb: no, those _are_ variable names, they are syntactically bound names 17:05:45 In Scheme they explicitly must be regular names, that's one of the beautiful things about the language. 17:06:33 carleastlund: then why would it be bad for scheme to predefine true and false variables too like it does already for if, define, etc.? 17:06:49 and so we loop 17:07:17 theseb: It is good. I think it's useful to have both forms. true and #true, just like you can write both pi (predefined constant) and 3.1415 (literal). 17:07:41 Specifically, you can write #true inside a quoted form, but not true. 17:07:46 '(#true #false). 17:07:49 Not '(true false). 17:08:35 the *standard* probably shouldn't define true to be #true, but there's nothing in the way of you doing that yourself 17:08:56 really, it doesn't matter what the standard says anyway 17:09:20 but that's a whole other argument 17:09:50 imo will matter when half of the implementations do in a way and other not 17:09:56 rszeno: which is the case now 17:10:19 take e.g. what happens when something receives the wrong number of values 17:10:20 ijp: that might change, if the standard were a bit more copious 17:10:29 but, as I say, whole other argument 17:15:01 Wow. I never noticed how similar f and t look (in some fonts I guess). Like inverses of each other. How cool is that? 17:16:24 heh 17:16:34 Which makes it ridiculous that #t vs #f is the most important single-character distinction in all Scheme programs. Huuuuge bug waiting to happen. 17:17:08 #T vs #F is only slightly better, as anyone filling in "true/false" test questions knows. 17:17:11 surely in the bowels of unicode there is probably a REVERSED LATIN SMALL LETTER F 17:17:43 how often do you actually use #t and #f instead of general predicates in your code? 17:18:18 dunno, often enough 17:18:55 General predicates? What? What "general predicate" would I use somewhere that #t or #f would do instead? 17:20:37 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD56397.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21:51 carleastlund: how often exactly do you write (if #t ...)?? I don't think that's a huge source of bugs.. 17:22:12 ecraven: that's not where I'd ever write a #t. I'd write it in, say, a base case of a cond. 17:22:21 data structures which use boolean 17:22:26 ecraven: arguments to functions, return values? 17:22:30 Flag arguments to functions. 17:23:09 even that case could happen in a weird macro 17:23:48 ecraven: take one recent example. I did (if foo #t bar) rather than (and foo bar). Why? To ensure the result was a boolean when foo may not be 17:23:59 er, or, not and 17:24:27 I could have done something silly like (if foo (eqv? 1 1) bar), but how is that any better 17:25:01 carleastlund: why would you not use ELSE in a COND? 17:25:15 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:25:17 ijp: indeed, that's a good use :) 17:25:23 ecraven: not [#t ], but [else #t]. 17:25:45 Or [(null? x) #t]. And so on. 17:27:29 davexunit [~user@pool-71-126-57-125.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:30:42 just out of interest, what font are you using? on Terminus, t and f are not that hard to discern 17:30:59 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD56397.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:32:26 Lucida Grande. I don't appear to have a font called Terminus (on Mac, using Colloquy as my client). 17:33:29 estebistec [~estebiste@72.133.228.205] has joined #scheme 17:35:03 Granted it's a variable-width text font and not a fixed-width code font, so t and f tend to just look like vertical lines. 17:37:45 Terminus is a great font for programming, imho :) http://terminus-font.sourceforge.net/ 17:43:02 -!- dkordic [~danilo@178-222-116-84.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:52:53 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:37 es [~estevocas@26.Red-83-59-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:37 -!- es is now known as estevocastro 17:58:56 -!- embee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:13 embee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #scheme 18:03:12 adiii [~adityavit@c-68-45-152-123.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:22 -!- 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