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[~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:51 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 08:08:38 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:21:29 Isp-sec [~palach@93.175.8.253] has joined #scheme 08:32:22 -!- ffio_ is now known as ffio 08:32:26 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 08:38:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-169.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 08:40:11 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 08:52:07 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 08:53:06 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 08:58:47 hi 08:59:03 hi 08:59:11 I feel I get the gist of procedural abstraction 08:59:41 how do you learn scheme programming 08:59:59 but when I get to data abstraction my whole view of everything collapses 09:00:58 it gets kind of spooky 09:03:45 why is irc so quiet today ? 09:03:57 'i donot know 09:04:17 what do you guys scheme programing for 09:04:28 are there some good codes on web 09:05:26 jerryzhou: google "simply scheme" 09:05:47 there's a intro to cs with scheme book too 09:05:48 also google "sicp" 09:06:24 it mentions sicp maybe heavy at first 09:06:49 ok 09:07:04 how to learn that it is hard to learn 09:07:11 so there are some lighter ones, you should read first.... 09:07:26 ok 09:07:30 you can only learn when you do exercises.... 09:07:53 where are exercises 09:07:54 the little schemer? 09:07:59 in that process you'll discover your own misunderstandings or you'll ask others when you get stuck.... 09:08:16 so, one by one, you'll get more insight after some time 09:08:20 that's how it works.... 09:08:36 no exercises are in most books.... 09:08:42 even in sicp 09:08:48 right after each chapter or so 09:09:05 so you maybe even start to read sicp, and do the exercises 09:09:26 or another book, which you choose is upto you 09:09:36 I'm reading simply scheme now, about to start sicp 09:09:58 ok simply scheme first 09:10:16 there is also how to design programs 09:10:28 choose the one which is more appealing to you, when reading it which should sort of make you more motivated to read further on, and which is digestable by you! 09:10:57 just start with one, don't mix them at the start.... 09:11:19 you can always later on get back to read the others too.... 09:11:34 ok 09:12:41 the little schemer is a nice little workout 09:12:59 so lower your expectations at the start, you can't make big steps/jumps .... 09:13:24 let yourself enough time to digest things.... 09:13:40 i have time 09:13:57 but don't give up, when stuck or fed up, take a break (how much depends on you, it maybe even a week if you want!) 09:15:10 do other things in that time... 09:15:19 yes how to think the programming is hard 09:17:08 domain problem -> partition into easier, clearly defined steps -> translate the steps into scheme -> put the program together -> check for syntactic, semantic errors you made -> run to test 09:17:43 -> do the cycle again for parts you didn't get right or which you can refine... 09:19:31 you don't have to jump right into scheme for that, you can pick the problem domain apart in a regular language like english.... 09:26:11 tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:26 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 09:29:15 pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 09:32:38 cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has joined #scheme 09:34:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:11 marrtos [d9e77d47@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.231.125.71] has joined #scheme 10:22:39 hi, is scheme an intepreted or a compiled language? 10:24:50 yes ;-) 10:25:04 Depends on which implementation you look at. 10:25:22 chicken scheme 10:26:10 Does chicken scheme generate byte code such as gcc which I can later execute? 10:26:16 s/byte/machine/ 10:26:26 eeeh 10:26:34 Read their homepage 10:26:51 They answer your questions there :-) 10:27:03 http://www.call-cc.org/ 10:27:35 Your code can be both interpreted and compiled 10:28:51 I didn't mean to sound mean though, it's just a thing I do: "eeeh". 10:31:10 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:32:49 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 10:34:28 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 10:36:38 Does scheme have a standard libary which includes stuff like tcp socket support? For instance in common lisp you have to install external libraries(usocket) if you want to use sockets 10:38:24 I wouldn't say standard, but usually the different implementations support more than the actual standard. So maybe chicken scheme does have that, I don't know. 10:38:34 Look at chicken's "eggs" 10:39:33 where can I find more information about "the actual standard"? 10:39:56 also: It seems to be very hard to write portable scheme code if every implementations extends the language diffrently 10:40:01 Read R6RS 10:40:10 Yeah, it can be quite a pain 10:40:23 But I guess it's feasible. 10:40:32 do you write portable code? 10:40:43 or do you just focus on one implementation? 10:41:00 I focus on one 10:41:12 on which one? 10:41:21 But writing portable code would be a nice thing to do.. 10:41:24 Guile 10:42:26 http://www.r6rs.org/ <- here you can find a pdf with the standard 10:42:36 thanks 10:42:41 Or an html version if that's what you prefer :-) 10:42:48 no, pdf is fine :) 10:42:55 Agreed 10:42:58 :-) 10:46:31 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:47:44 I hope I don't annoy anyone with my questions but what is a common usecase for scheme? Or is it just used as an academical language? 10:49:11 TBH, I have no idea. :-) I use it for fun. 10:49:26 I love the Scheme language, so I keep using it. 10:49:49 but what kind of applications do you write "for fun"? 10:49:58 like command-line applications or web stuff or ...? 10:50:37 Graphical stuff, command-line stuff, web stuff. I'm the limit, not the language :-P 10:50:58 Well, technically, the computer can be a limit too, but let's not go there. 10:51:04 :) 10:52:19 And I wouldn't say that a question like that is annoying, it's an important question for people new to any language. 10:52:34 are there any portable libraries for doing these kinds of things or does every implementation have their own libraries? For instance you mentioned chicken schemes eggs earlyer which are probably not compatible with GNU Guile, but are there libraries which are compatible with both guile and chicken scheme? 10:52:43 or is it even possible to write portable libraries? 10:52:56 Hmm 10:53:20 ijp could probably answer that better than me, but he doesn't seem to be online. 10:54:21 Sorry for leave you hanging. :-/ 10:54:27 leavingÄ 10:54:28 * 10:54:34 :) 10:55:45 the only thing which "scares" me a bit are those compatability issues between the diffrent implementations, otherwise scheme seems to be an interessting language. Is there any book you could recommend for learning scheme? 10:56:34 If I were to recommend a book to *buy* it would be "The little Schemer" 10:57:27 does this book focus on a single implementation? 10:57:30 I guess SICP is good too, but it's a bit on the more advanced side later on. 10:57:32 Nope 10:57:46 ok, I will take a look at it then - thans 10:57:47 SICP is available on the internet though 10:57:51 s/thans/thanks/ 10:58:02 e.g for free 10:58:22 :-) 10:58:38 is this SICP? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 10:58:41 Yes 11:00:05 I guess SICP is more like "Here's how to program, and we are using Scheme" more than "How to learn Scheme" 11:00:06 book 11:00:23 But it's good 11:00:38 I gues I will take a look at both :) 11:00:44 :-) 11:00:46 Good idea 11:01:25 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-34-198.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:01:36 Later on there are books like "The seasoned Schemer", it's in the same series as "The little Schemer" and "The reasoned Schemer". 11:01:39 Just let me ask two more questions: Does scheme have marcos like common lisp does and is there still a community which is using the language because the language itself is rather old 11:01:45 But read those later if you want to 11:02:15 That's why all the RNRS, it's revised 6 times, and is being revised a 7th time 11:02:36 Yes, Scheme has macros 11:03:02 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:07 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 11:03:35 Well, I would say that there are more than one community. 11:03:47 Because of the different implementations 11:04:30 and does it have marcos? :) 11:04:38 Heh, yeah 11:04:42 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:34 cool, I guess I will start reading "the little schemer" now 11:05:43 :-) 11:05:45 Have fun 11:05:55 thanks for your advices - goodbye 11:05:55 -!- marrtos [d9e77d47@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.231.125.71] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:06:15 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-156.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:07:20 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 11:12:46 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:13:13 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD5610A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:22:14 -!- dsevilla [~user@66.Red-79-151-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:44 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 11:44:00 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:45:16 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 11:52:51 pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-34-198.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:54:21 Aiwass [~user@unaffiliated/aiwass] has joined #scheme 11:55:18 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:57:50 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [] 12:01:23 dioxirane [~cooltheen@gateway/tor-sasl/dioxirane] has joined #scheme 12:01:36 -!- dioxirane [~cooltheen@gateway/tor-sasl/dioxirane] has left #scheme 12:01:43 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 12:02:11 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 12:07:05 -!- skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@197.32.227.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:34 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:20:16 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:39 es [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:22:07 -!- es [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:18 estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:22:46 -!- estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:01 estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:32:46 -!- cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:36:40 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:59 tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 12:41:35 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 12:48:21 jao [~jao@208.Red-193-153-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:48:24 -!- jao [~jao@208.Red-193-153-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:24 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 12:54:47 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.63.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:56:30 Aiwass` [~user@188.26.200.73] has joined #scheme 12:59:36 -!- Aiwass [~user@unaffiliated/aiwass] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:02:49 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 13:06:17 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:11 -!- estevocastro [~smuxi@26.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:20 nmeum [~nmeum@2a00:12c0:1015:123::] has joined #scheme 13:15:03 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.215.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24:31 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD5610A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24:49 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60E7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:30:45 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 13:31:01 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.215.18] has joined #scheme 13:32:27 -!- nmeum [~nmeum@2a00:12c0:1015:123::] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 13:32:35 -!- tenkyuu [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:22 bokr [~ed@109.110.63.111] has joined #scheme 13:35:50 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 13:37:43 -!- pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:44:30 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:25 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:48:59 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 13:49:03 ijp [~user@host86-185-7-114.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:50:04 ai0nk [~olio@tt51.tekmantuki.fi] has joined #scheme 13:53:41 Hello. I need an editor for scheme (in freebsd console). I've used racket IDE before. Vim and Emacs both terrify me, they come with 30+ dependencies when installed, and I like to keep my system clean. Also, the extra features that come bundled in emacs annoy my sense of elegance. Any tips for editors? Maybe some more minimal fork of emacs? 13:54:41 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:55:06 you might like nano 13:55:23 it's rather minimalist 13:55:38 there's vim-lite also 13:55:43 or just straight vi 13:55:56 but if you want the niceties of syntax highlighting, indentation, i don't know if even nano will get you there 13:56:22 dpk: i'm using nano right now, but i'd like to have some scheme features, like parenthesis matching and proper indentation 13:56:34 may as well use ed, if you are that anal retentive, since its already on your system 13:56:35 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:30 -!- bokr [~ed@109.110.63.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:00:10 -!- b4284 [~b4284@111.71.45.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:44 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 14:10:47 wrl: i'm checking out vim-lite now, thx 14:13:09 zile? 14:13:15 perhaps? 14:20:53 estevocastro [~estevocas@235.Red-81-35-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:47 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:52 zile's looking like what i came here to look for, thanks 14:31:29 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 14:32:41 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43323.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:23 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:45 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:41:04 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 14:52:19 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:55:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:21 ai0nk: Fear of complication fades as your understanding of a system grows. I'm very strongly recommending Emacs. 15:13:31 I don't think Emacs has many mandatory dependencies .. probably the package on your system has all kinds of features enabled. 15:13:44 You might want to compile it yourself. 15:17:00 I really enjoy Emacs as well, but I didn't switch to it before learning Haskell and Erlang, since their 'modes' are really fine. 15:17:53 You want Paredit for Lisp. I don't know if any non-Emacs has something comparable to Paredit. 15:18:52 for scheme, I'm sure I'd appreciate if my editor actually was a part of the environment, like emacs is for elisp. but I don't know. most of what I do in scheme right now I just do in a web editor ;P 15:24:18 simon: Emacs will possibly be jolted on top of Guile in the next couple years or so .. see the GSoC project of this year for the TODO list for the integration to be completed. 15:25:02 (Guile can compile different languages to its intermediate-language(s), and Elisp is already one of them, except that some opaque data-types like windows and buffers aren't done.) 15:25:07 -!- Aiwass` [~user@188.26.200.73] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:33:37 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:40:12 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 15:40:49 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:41:13 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43323.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:51 -!- StephenS_ is now known as StephenS 15:42:57 -!- StephenS [~StephenS@74.63.228.143] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:57 StephenS [~StephenS@xshellz/founder/StephenS] has joined #scheme 15:42:58 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43323.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:50:25 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 15:56:50 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:00:45 taylanub: emacs gives you repetitive motion syndrome 16:00:50 from the huge long ass commands 16:01:05 also elisp 16:01:08 nuff said 16:01:13 -!- ai0nk [~olio@tt51.tekmantuki.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:04:09 .oO("jolted on top"?) 16:04:11 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:12 let's start an editor war on #scheme for no good reason 16:04:23 I would have said "Guile will possibly be bolted on top of Emacs" ... 16:04:51 b4284 [~b4284@223-138-2-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:04 anyone know of a simple light emacs clone written in scheme? 16:06:37 seems a rewrite could throw out a lot of the barnacles that have shown up with age 16:07:00 or common lisp 16:07:01 ? 16:07:25 Nisstyre: [citation needed] ;) 16:07:55 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:07:58 theseb: MIT/GNU Scheme has Edwin or something. 16:08:11 thanks 16:08:34 There's also some Common Lisp one .. forgot its name. 16:08:56 taylanub: lol......i'm not the first person to think of cloning emacs heh......here is an entire page of clones..http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsImplementations. 16:09:05 -!- calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: calvis] 16:09:38 By the way apart from barnacles, a gigantic pool of Elisp code has also shown up with Emacs's age, which is exactly the reason a rewrite is implausible. 16:10:34 taylanub: a developer would likely wrap that old code and invoke it as necessary like a black box 16:10:48 taylanub: and slowly replace pieces in time if so motivated 16:10:55 theseb: Might want to look into the effort of merging Guileg and Emacs. 16:11:00 Guile* 16:11:17 ijp: I'm not advocating any other editor 16:11:27 just saying I wouldn't use elisp or emacs for those reasons 16:13:51 offby1: Well, Guile will be executing the Elisp, so in a sense it's the "bottom" and Emacs "on top". 16:13:57 ... awkward 16:14:55 taylanub: why not just write a whole new emacs-like editor except with guile instead of elisp? 16:15:01 better yet, use Racket instead of Guile 16:15:10 taylanub: realistically speaking it would be more practical to clean up emacs or hide the barnacles than to attempt a rewrite/clone 16:15:11 Nisstyre: Because of what I said above. 16:15:36 taylanub: same issue comes up with X Windows and Wayland....it takes a lot of barnacles to justify a rewrite 16:15:40 taylanub: which part? 16:15:56 theseb: Yeah, the Emacs code-base is also shifting towards lexical scoping by the way. (Elisp supports it recently.) 16:16:01 the big pile of existing useful elisp part 16:16:11 ^ 16:17:00 how much effort would it take to translate all of it to Scheme? 16:17:07 how many lifetimes do you have? 16:17:12 ijp: I mean automatically 16:17:32 Nisstyre: i was about to say that....autotranslation is the only hope 16:17:44 calvis [~calvis@c-50-157-225-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:55 Not sure what kind of weird code that would generate. And if it's not meant for human consumption, then Guile already compiles Elisp and makes it usable from Scheme. 16:18:18 then do that, and don't allow people to write new elisp code 16:18:20 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #scheme 16:18:29 Why not ? Some people like Elisp. 16:18:34 that's about as likely to happen as nobody writing new C 16:18:37 It's not like Elisp is not improving, either. 16:18:46 okay, then at least offer scheme 16:19:01 I guess this is supposed to do that? 16:19:17 taylanub: like elisp? that's crazy talk :) 16:19:36 Nisstyre: Yeah, that's the main hope I guess, for Scheme/Guile fans. 16:19:37 taylanub: the point is we don't *need* 3 major lisp dialects 16:19:56 theseb: But we have them, and some people like some over the others. :) 16:20:29 anyway, if you want to pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist, I think the squeak guys still want help 16:20:42 taylanub: some people prefer PHP over Scheme too 16:20:42 taylanub: why would someone *prefer* elisp over scheme or CL? i'm open to the notion..please enlighten me 16:20:53 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 16:20:58 What in the world does "we don't need 3 major lisp dialects" mean, that doesn't equally uselessly mean "we don't need more than one programming language, ever"? Languages fragment. Always will. We can't just make that problem go away. 16:21:19 theseb: because they learned it first. 16:21:42 carleastlund: I started with PCL before I ever touched any Racket 16:21:51 I don't use CL now, but I use Racket all the time 16:22:05 PCL = Practical Common Lisp btw 16:22:08 and yet, other people still use CL. funny world 16:22:11 theseb: Well I don't personally know, to be honest. Probably that they're familiar with it, have Emacs as an awesome IDE for it, and perhaps don't see value in all the features of Scheme/CL which you see as being superior. It's not like someone has scientifically proven for Scheme/CL to be superior to any other language, is it ? 16:22:20 ijp: it's meant to refute the "people love what they learned first" argument 16:22:24 Nisstyre: you're 1 data point. There are millions of others, not all with the same conclusion. 16:22:43 Nisstyre: the great thing about humans is that we break every rule we come up with 16:22:45 I'm not saying _everyone_ loves what they learned first. 16:23:16 I'm saying there are historical reasons for why people like what they like, you can't argue it purely based on an analysis of language semantics. 16:23:38 Basic-Plus! 16:23:44 Eff Tee Dubya 16:23:49 Nisstyre: Did you look into Kernel the language ? 16:23:50 taylanub: there are some pretty objectively bad ideas 16:23:54 there are a few listed here: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dfried/mex.pdf 16:24:23 of course you can say "oh I love those things!" 16:24:53 but come on, no tail call optimization when it wouldn't change the semantics of anything? 16:24:53 There are always some pretty objectively bad ideas. War in the middle east is one of them. It doesn't mean we know how to get people to stop. 16:24:57 touching a hot stove is a pretty bad idea, yet every kid does it 16:25:06 no hygienic macros when they can be added pretty easily? 16:25:23 except maybe Nisstyre 16:25:25 no lexical scope when you can have it beside dynamic scope? 16:25:38 (that's assuming you even want dynamic scope) 16:25:52 that is a point in CL's favour btw 16:25:57 Nisstyre: I speak from years of experience, hygienic macros are not actually that easy to add to a language. You're living in a fairy tale if you think this stuff is as obvious as "why don't they just flip the `do good stuff` switch"? 16:26:13 Nisstyre: elisp has lexical scope, and it's been an integration headache 16:26:17 carleastlund: I'm aware that some of this is hard to add after an existing implementation is in place 16:26:35 I meant at the beginning 16:26:38 Well, that's the problem. Elisp's existing implementation is in place. And used by every Emacs user in the world. 16:27:00 There is no beginning. We're not Adam and Eve. The beginning is irrelevant, because this is a discussion about a specific, existing language. 16:27:07 (or at least started that way) 16:27:21 okay, fair enough 16:27:30 and even if you want to play the "in the beginning game", rms _did_ consider lexical scope in the beginning, and rejected it 16:29:02 When was this? I don't know how far back the history of elisp goes. 16:29:27 I think gnu emacs was originally written around 84 16:29:38 I should probably find a cite for that claim too 16:29:42 I heard lexical scope was simply too difficult 16:29:51 offby1: in what way? 16:29:55 dunno :-| 16:29:58 "it's not efficient" 16:30:00 and Scheme had been around for a while by then 16:30:06 offby1: Scheme was around in the 70s 16:30:10 (See that dfried paper I linked) 16:30:13 I don't remember how far back, but for a long time people thought lexical scope was difficult and expensive. It wasn't well understood. But I don't think 84 was early enough for that to be the case. 16:30:24 1976-ish I guess 16:31:16 stallman is mentioned in a few of the early scheme papers, he wasn't ignorant 16:31:31 I've read that the decision was because dynamic scoping goes better with ad-hoc extensions and modifications. 16:31:47 https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC17 16:32:11 so he was arguing for it at least as late as 81, which was before gnu emacs 16:32:22 "[...] I aimed to make the absolute minimal possible Lisp implementation. The size of the programs was a tremendous concern. There were people in those days, in 1985, who had one-megabyte machines without virtual memory. They wanted to be able to use GNU Emacs. This meant I had to keep the program as small as possible."  from "My Lisp Experiences and the Development of GNU Emacs" 16:32:29 so in gnu emacs it was a holdover from a previous emacs 16:34:35 "I asked RMS when he was implementing emacs lisp why it was dynamically scoped and his exact reply was that lexical scope was too inefficient." http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg00650.html 16:34:47 (I'm pulling these out of Wikipedia's article on Elisp by the way.) 16:35:45 ah, that might be the mail I was remembering 16:35:54 taylanub: does it say why? I'm guessing because of the memory requirements for environments? 16:36:50 you could read it... 16:36:54 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60E7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:36:56 it's kind of long :P 16:37:05 Nisstyre: The second paragraph seems to tell. 16:37:14 Third* 16:37:59 ''' There was immense experience in the lisp community on optimising compiled implementations of dynamically-scoped languages -- this, to such an extent, that it was a widely held opinion at the time that "lexical scope is interesting, *theoretically*, but it's inefficient to implement; dynamic scope is the fast choice." ''' 16:38:04 I asked RMS when he was implementing emacs lisp why it was dynamically scoped and his exact reply was that lexical scope was too inefficient. So my point here is that even to people who were experts in the area of lisp implementation, in 1982 (and for years afterward, actually), Scheme was a radical, not-at-all-accepted notion. 16:38:25 taylanub: yeah, that seems to imply that it was an irrational belief though 16:39:14 From today's perspective it's irrational. At the time, they probably didn't have any way of knowing that yet. 16:39:16 I guess it was some form of ignorance. 16:40:22 Nisstyre: I forget who said it, but theres a quote along the lines of "there are three stages of knowledge acceptance: it's ignored, then it's dismissed as irrelevant, then it's nothing special and has been known forever" 16:40:35 scheme then was at stage 2 16:40:47 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:49 fair point 16:42:14 source seems to be William James 16:42:19 ah 16:42:42 One of the easiest fallacies to fall into in CS is thinking "X can't be implemented efficiently" when really it's "we don'y know how to implement X efficiently _yet_". 16:42:43 He did some cool psychology stuff, although pragmatism is kind of odd 16:43:36 carleastlund: I think that explains a lot of the thinking I see 16:44:15 carleastlund: another one is "We need the freedom to do this otherwise we won't be able to get things done as quickly" 16:44:19 On the other hand, if we don't know how to implement X efficiently yet, until we do, we have to treat it as if it can't be. There's no magic "find the best possible implementation" button. 16:44:35 people don't realize that bad code implemented quickly takes up *more* of your time 16:44:41 in the long run that is 16:44:46 carleastlund: there is if P=NP 16:45:29 I thought that for a long time. Now, though, I think we'd never write anything if people didn't, a lot of the time, just write the first thing they think of and call it "good enough". 16:45:59 Waiting for a perfectly crafted solution is like waiting for the Holy Grail to be found. It's a looooooong wait. 16:46:04 carleastlund: maybe, but I think it depends on how good you are at engineering 16:46:45 It also depends on how good you _think_ you are at engineering. 16:46:51 realize it can't be perfect, but don't try and do it as quickly as possible either and end up with something that you will end up spending days debugging later 16:57:14 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:59:44 tupi [~user@189.60.0.155] has joined #scheme 17:09:24 -!- bjz [~brendanza@CPE-121-223-37-10.lnse2.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:11:34 adiii [~adityavit@c-68-45-152-123.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:02 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:28:31 And now I wonder why I spend all that time reading the logs.. 17:30:10 spent* 17:36:59 -!- b4284 [~b4284@223-138-2-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:25 add^_: Because it's fun? 17:43:37 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