00:04:20 b4283 [~b4283@198.199.102.93] has joined #scheme 00:37:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.101.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:14 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:39:21 trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:24 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 01:00:59 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #scheme 01:04:31 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:59 turbofail [~user@107-215-216-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:01 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:27 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:39:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@173-16-109-35.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:41:11 -!- karswell [~user@87.112.209.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:41 roderic` [~user@c-66-31-138-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:58 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:03 jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:49  02:05:02 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 02:06:11 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:43 ijp` [~user@host81-155-30-200.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 02:08:29 skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@197.32.236.78] has joined #scheme 02:09:18 -!- ijp [~user@host81-155-30-200.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:19 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:32 -!- jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:28 -!- jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:35:57 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 02:36:36 *offby1* bows 02:36:46 jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:37:23 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:24 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46:41 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 02:55:29 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:13:11 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #scheme 03:18:28 guys, in SICP, exercise 1.6 that can be found here http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.7 will the interpreter go into an infinite loop because it uses applicative-order evaluation? so it will keep applying the else sqrt-iter statement and go on forever because it's recursive? 03:24:51 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #scheme 03:25:25 skeuomorf: what would happen with normal order? 03:25:53 would that still be an infinite loop or not? 03:26:09 (or an infinite-something-else :)) 03:26:10 aranhoide: it would expand all procedures, then start reducing 03:26:44 hmmm 03:27:06 would it ever be done expanding all procedures? 03:27:27 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:27:29 well, I guess not 03:27:47 cause it won't start assigning the formal parameters till it's done expanding, correct? 03:28:08 and it won't stop expanding because sqrt-iter is recursive 03:28:55 so, no recursive function can ever complete execution? 03:29:06 that's exactly what I've been thinking about 03:29:15 thinking it through right now 03:30:09 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:30:18 what's Alyssa trying to test/prove here to begin with? 03:30:23 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:53 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 03:31:09 she wanted to find out if she can implement a user-defined if statement using cond instead of the "built-in" if statement 03:31:23 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 03:31:58 -!- turbofail [~user@107-215-216-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:16 so, is the problem that |if| can do something that |cond| can't? 03:33:31 so, the recursive procedure has a "break" condition, I don't know the correct term for that but.... 03:33:40 base case 03:33:46 or terminating condition 03:33:46 aha 03:34:00 thinking about that |if| vs |cond| question 03:34:05 if and cond are equivalent in power; cond is just nested if, and if is just one-branch(+else) cond. 03:34:35 ya, I was nudging skeuomorf into ruling that out 03:34:54 aha 03:35:12 Oh, have I jumped in and rushed to the answer too fast? Sorry. 03:35:20 it's not |cond| vs |if|, and it's probably not applicative vs normal (since both go into an infinite loop) 03:35:50 what other differences can you tell between |if| and |new-if|? 03:36:00 so, they do go into an infinite-loop? 03:36:03 point neu-if 03:36:30 carleastlund: don't worry, that was a tangent anyway 03:37:12 skeuomorf: you can try that in a scheme implementation or using substitution, but yes 03:37:31 that |if| doesn't have to evaluate all the arguments 03:38:12 could that explain why |new-if| won't terminate? 03:38:46 pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 03:39:24 what happens in the base case / termination condition, in the version of |sqrt-iter| that uses |new-if|? 03:39:59 that is, what happens when |guess| is |good-enough?| 03:40:24 of course, because, as mentioned earlier, in applicative order, it has to evaluate all the arguments first, and in normal-order, it has to expand and will keep expanding since the function is recursive and in that case, yes we can't have a recursive function using new-if that will terminate properly 03:40:35 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD90122.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:41:05 taylanub [tub@p4FD92283.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:41:14 it will return guess but will keep evaluating sqrt-iter also 03:41:17 why can we have recursive functions with the regular |if|? 03:41:37 when will it return |guess|? 03:41:52 because it doesn't have to evaluate all the arguments, so it evaluates the base-case and it turns true, it breaks 03:42:14 yep :) 03:42:30 aranhoide: thanks for the guidance :D 03:42:38 SICP is excellent 03:42:57 skeuomorf: you still have one misconception I think 03:43:56 *before* returning |guess|, |sqrt-iter| needs to evaluate the recursive call on itself 03:43:57 which is? 03:44:30 which in turn involves another recursive call to |sqrt-iter|, and so on forever 03:44:33 yes, I meant it should return |guess| but that won't happen 03:44:38 ah ok 03:44:41 sorry :) 03:44:54 nvm, thanks a dozen :) 03:45:08 that's why you need |if|/|cond| as special forms 03:45:31 -!- carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 03:45:50 SICP is indeed excellent :) 03:46:19 aranhoide: yeah, so it appears that's that what Abelton and Sussman intended to demonstrate in the first place by the means of this exercise 03:47:10 s/Abelton/Abelson 03:48:06 What's a good book that I should read after SICP that will make recursion very intuitive for me? 03:48:20 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:34 you could read The Little Schemer even before SICP 03:48:45 I have HTDP and PFDS on my list, but I don't think they aren't recursion centric, I went 03:48:51 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:48:56 I want* to "master" recursion 03:49:09 anyway, recursion will sink in just by practice 03:49:20 aha 03:49:31 so, what do you think about HTDP and PFDS? 03:49:57 PFDS will be preceded by possibly a number theory book and skiena's algoritm design manual 03:50:33 I haven't read HTDP. probably more practical than SICP, but you may find it boring after that. perhaps you may want to read it before instead 03:51:02 PFDS? I don't recognize it by the initials :) 03:51:21 Purely functional data structures 03:51:23 :) 03:51:53 ah ok, I have that on my reading list too, but haven't read it yet 03:52:23 aha 03:53:16 may I suggest Norvig's Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming? It's in Common Lisp, but it explains enough about the differences in the first three chapters for you to read the rest of the code 03:54:21 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:21 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:54:21 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 03:54:29 looking it up right now 03:54:40 what do you want a number theory book for? crypto? 03:54:58 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:23 crypto and maybe it will assist in algorithms? 03:56:00 well, my guess is any discrete math book will have enough number theory for algorithms 03:56:21 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:21 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:56:21 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 03:56:26 Norvig's book looks great, I will save it for later, cause I don't really wanna read about AI for now 03:57:23 aha, I have a Bsc in CS and studied discrete maths and calculus and all that but I feel like I am not on the top of my game 03:58:02 I was in a lousy college and I didn't take an Algorithms course!! 03:58:36 skeuomorf: it's not about the AI really (it's quite dated as an AI book). AIMA has a great treatment about problem solving and program design 03:58:41 the nuts and bolts 03:58:54 skeuomorf: you probably don't need any more math to read Skiena 03:59:24 aranhoide: aha, will look into it after SICP then 03:59:35 aranhoide: what are the main maths topics in Skiena? 04:00:11 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:09 the main math tool in any algorithms book is complexity (big O and big Theta) analysis 04:01:46 and the major topics of discrete math: recurrence relations, graph theory 04:01:57 (that come to mind; don't take my word for it) 04:02:06 but Skiena is not math heavy 04:02:43 so, I won't need to know for example graph theory or such beforehand? 04:02:45 skeuomorf: Norvig's book is much more a Common Lisp course and much less an AI book. 04:02:52 skeuomorf: Very good style, too. 04:03:20 skeuomorf: Also: http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html 04:03:49 I'd just start reading and review your discrete math if you find any difficulties 04:04:07 antoszka: thanks! looks like a great article, Norvig is epic 04:04:28 aranhoide: aha, awesome, thank you :) 04:04:57 Yeah, Norvig *is* epic. 04:05:00 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:05:21 I wonder if you can recommend an OOP book, a book that's language-skeptic, which I can take what I learn from it and apply it to any OOP language (Java, C++,..etc) 04:06:05 preferrably a book heavy on explaining different typing modes (Dynamic, static, duck, strong, weak) from the basics 04:06:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 04:06:38 and of course polymorphism, interfaces, abstract classes, when to use what 04:08:08 my recommendation is to avoid that if you can :) 04:08:17 or rather, for as long as you can 04:08:37 well, I kinda have to find a job ASAP and the market is full of that shit 04:09:41 and I don't have much coding experience 04:10:19 I see. well, SICP teaches you polymorphism and interfaces (under a different light than usual in OOP texts) 04:10:21 brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has joined #scheme 04:11:04 aha 04:11:16 I will finish it (hopefully) and see what will happen next 04:11:53 aranhoide: Thanks again, you've been such a great help :) 04:13:03 the only book I read on the kind of OOP you ask about was "Thinking in Java" by Bruce Eckel 04:13:15 certainly not language agnostic, but quite good on the concepts 04:13:40 I went throught maybe a chapter in it, don't remember what I thought of it at the time 04:14:02 I was reading core java before it and got frustrated after 500 pages or sth, ugly book 04:14:18 so, when I went to thinking in Java, I was kinda burnt out 04:14:35 I have "Object Oriented Software Construction" by Meyer, but could never bring myself to read it. heard good things about it though 04:14:46 gave up on ever being a coder (at that time) 04:14:47 aha 04:15:37 some people on stackoverflow recommended a book that was smalltalk-centric "The purest OOP language of all" they say 04:16:18 can't find the name of the book or the SO thread now! 04:16:58 ffio [~fire@123.201.84.204] has joined #scheme 04:17:04 I've never programmed in smalltalk, but I know people who love it 04:17:14 -!- ffio is now known as Guest15408 04:17:34 I don't know anyone that loves Java or C++, but I suppose they exist :) 04:18:01 I know a lot who hate both 04:18:03 -!- Guest15408 [~fire@123.201.84.204] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:14 the loudest one of them is Linus Torvalds :D 04:18:29 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 04:18:46 I don't intend to use smalltalk, rather learn OOP using it and switch to java maybe (cause I need to code apps for android) 04:19:31 -!- ffio_ is now known as fire 04:20:00 has anyone tried getting Clojure to work on Android? 04:20:10 I don't like the approach of "I know Java, python" or whatever, I think a programmer should know how to design programs and know the paradigms (Logical programming, OOP, functional) and simply learn the syntax for the language that he needs, I might be mistaken as I am not experienced but we'll see 04:20:41 I see. if you're going to do Android apps as an employee then you probably need Java. if you're going to do it on your own, there are nicer languages that compile to the JVM or to C (so you can use the NDK or interface to Java via JNI) 04:20:53 skeuomorf: even the most experienced programmers feel the same way. 04:21:15 skeuomorf: although, to be technical, the difference between languages is a lot more than just syntax 04:21:50 aranhoide: I just wanna know the "hot" languages cause I wanna get a job and my country's market haven't even heard of functional programming 04:22:57 brianmwaters: yes, I understand that there could be difference, like what's a more efficient approach in regards to performance, will this approach or that approach introduce un-necessary bugs,..etc 04:24:09 a big part of being productive in a new language is getting acquainted with its libraries 04:25:09 exactly, but I am not really familiar with statically-typed language and I don't feel like I know enough OOP, hence I wanna learn the paradigm first, if you know what I mean 04:25:45 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 04:27:07 I see 04:27:47 skeuomorf: my 2 cents says to learn static typing "the right way" a la hindley-milner! 04:28:16 skeuomorf: ie Standard ML, OCaml or Haskell (pick one) 04:28:46 skeuomorf: though i can't speak much to OOP 04:29:01 all these languages don't look approachable for a beginner like myself :D 04:29:23 I think Haskell is great, on my gigantic to-learn list, but I was planning to learn it after maybe reading PFDS 04:29:25 brianmwaters: if he wants to do it to get a mainstream job that may not be the most practical approach 04:29:29 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 04:30:18 you'd be surprised. i have a python-hacker friend who wanted to get into FP. i recommended him to read the little schemer but he just jumped right to Haskell and seems to be doing fine 04:30:42 aranhoide: yeah, that's for sure. he mentioned he wants to learn "the paradigms" first though... 04:30:52 skeuomorf: PFDS is nice but specialized. it's unlikely you'll ever need to implement your own complex data structures unless for fun or research 04:31:28 plus, you'll have to know at least enought SML and Haskell to read that book in the first place 04:32:09 ohh 04:32:11 I see 04:32:19 yeah the examples are in those languages 04:33:06 the reviews on this look good http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Object-Oriented-Analysis-Design/dp/0596008678 04:33:07 http://tinyurl.com/ycuqo7 04:34:23 I keep hearing praise about the head-first books, but I've never read one 04:34:51 the OOP counterpart to the Little Schemer looks interesting 04:35:04 i have a copy, haven't read it yet, so i can't really comment too much 04:35:07 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Changing host] 04:35:07 aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #scheme 04:35:21 aranhoide: me neither 04:35:26 but if it's anything like TLS, then it's definitely about "paradigms", and it's in Java to boot 04:35:33 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:41 the book that brianmwaters recommends: http://www.amazon.com/Little-Java-Few-Patterns/dp/0262561158/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372221309&sr=1-1&keywords=a+little+java 04:35:42 http://tinyurl.com/pevapj4 04:35:44 called "A Little Java, A Few Patterns" 04:35:48 yeah there thanks 04:35:49 heh 04:36:13 never read it, but I'm a fan of the 'Little' series 04:36:20 looks interesting 04:36:31 will try to find a table of contents somewhere 04:36:54 the second- and third- to last chapters of TLS really blew my mind 04:37:22 i hadn't really seen CPS before that 04:37:56 what is CPS? 04:38:03 continuation-passing style 04:38:19 no idea what that is :| so much to learn, ma 04:38:27 mostly used in scheme/lisp compilers 04:38:31 (that I know of) 04:38:45 not so much in 'user' code I think 04:38:48 i've seen it in ML books 04:39:21 aha 04:39:24 aranhoide: you haven't seen it much in the wild, then? 04:39:29 brianmwaters: ya I should have said compilers in general. Compiling With Continuations is about SMLNJ 04:39:46 brianmwaters: nope. have you? 04:39:58 i am thinking about re-writing the parser in my pet project using CPS 04:40:25 aranhoide: no. but then again, i haven't read that much wild code. mostly books and written my own 04:40:49 brianmwaters: same here (in scheme anyway) 04:41:20 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:41:26 idunno, in my case transferring to CPS i think will simplify the architecture of the whole parser 04:41:47 but then again, i might not be realizing some better non-cps way 04:42:02 i already tried accumulator-passing style, it's pretty ugly 04:42:16 ok, now I am intrigues by this "A little java, A few patterns" but I can't afford it, even if I can, it will take forever to ship here 04:42:18 (in my case, not in general) 04:42:27 skeuomorf: where you live? 04:42:45 lol you could borrow it, but you're probably far away 04:42:49 Egypt 04:43:02 oh, thank you, probably am :D 04:43:14 yep, other side of the planet! lol 04:43:25 yeah :D 04:46:31 There isn't a free version of it online neither, I wish all authors did like the authors of "2 scoops of Django" do, I couldn't afford the book, emailed them, they replied with an ebook copy and send me the updated version in the email whenever they publish, I will definitely buy the book after I get a job just to pay them back 04:47:30 yeah, i have to admit for the longest time to getting books from "dubious" sources online 04:47:36 i learned a lot 04:47:49 but recently i've been buying hardcopies 04:47:55 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:48:05 I do that too 04:48:10 yeah 04:48:18 and I will buy copies when I can afford them 04:48:24 a little java doesn't seem to be up there :) 04:48:39 cause I like print and cause I think authors deserve to be paid 04:48:53 brianmwaters: I know, I've searched :D 04:51:06 whoops 04:55:55 -!- brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has left #scheme 04:56:01 brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has joined #scheme 04:59:37 -!- fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 05:00:24 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 05:00:26 -!- permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:10 permagreen [~donovan@204.195.27.175] has joined #scheme 05:01:20 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 05:01:22 -!- ffio_ is now known as fire 05:06:58 so i was thinking about the Y combinator the other day 05:07:06 and then i was thinking about continuation-passig style 05:07:09 and then it hit me 05:07:33 the y-combinator passes continuations around, and thats how it works 05:07:41 and in that moment, my mind exploded forever 05:07:51 bjz [~brendanza@CPE-121-223-37-10.lnse2.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 05:08:36 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #scheme 05:10:11 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 05:11:11 I wish I was able to discuss that but I can't :D 05:11:19 same here :) 05:11:48 I need to reread my Little Schemer 05:12:04 actually, i am waiting for someone to tell me i'm wrong :) 05:12:10 hahahaha 05:12:17 because my understanding is still a little sketchy 05:12:30 you're wrong 05:12:33 there :) 05:12:40 haha smartass 05:13:53 I know this isn't relevant but I just wanna tell you guys that you're awesome! :) 05:14:34 skeuomorf: roughly the Y combinator is a trick to make a recursive function without giving it a name 05:14:55 that is, recursion with only lambdas, not |define|s 05:15:01 thanks skeuomorf! 05:15:06 thanks man 05:15:14 yeah, I know lambdas from Python :) finally, sth that I know :D 05:15:22 yeah, roughly that's what it is. 05:15:33 no worries guys, I meant it 05:15:49 i gave a talk on lambda calculus a few weeks ago, but the y-combinator part was a little hand-wavey 'cause i still didnt really understand it at that time 05:15:58 -!- jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:16:51 skeuomorf: you are awesome for hanging out in the scheme room and wanting to learn "paradigms" alongside "the hot new industry langagues" 05:16:57 mmc1 [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 05:17:04 *aranhoide* agrees 05:17:59 *skeuomorf* bows down in respect and thanks brianmwater and aranhoide 05:18:21 lol 05:18:24 stop doing that :) 05:18:30 heheh 05:18:34 :D 05:19:01 what can I say? I am Japanese 05:19:02 :D 05:19:51 oh i see 05:19:54 hence the bowing 05:19:54 haha 05:20:03 exactly :D 05:20:58 *skeuomorf* goes to make more coffee 05:26:47 do you guys have github and/or twitter accounts? 05:28:14 yeah. PM me again; I can't figure out how to do it on this old-fangled IRC 05:29:09 oh, hell i guess i use my real name here anyway. 05:29:17 it's github.com/brianmwaters and @brianmwaters 05:30:02 me too :) 05:30:25 sorry, I have a lame ass github profile, nothing to entertain you there :D 05:31:15 same here 05:32:16 -!- fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:27 skeuomorf: is that you in the wingsuit? 05:32:50 brianmwater: I wish :D 05:32:58 soon, hopefully 05:33:10 aranhoide: but you have good contributions 05:34:41 those are job related 05:34:55 still, awesome :) 05:35:02 thanks :) 05:35:15 you're welcome 05:35:55 brianmwater: I don't have half the balls that you have, judging from your job, I started fearing heights when I got older, When I was younger, I had much bigger balls 05:35:57 lantern looks cool 05:36:29 skeuomorf: lol, it's just work :) 05:36:58 still, it takes balls :D 05:37:03 contrary to what many think, we take safety quite seriously in my line of work :) 05:37:22 of course you do, it's the difference between life and death 05:37:32 lol, i guess so! 05:37:53 now i just need to find someone who will pay me to write scheme code up there 05:38:01 hahaha 05:38:06 that would be like a world record or something 05:38:20 I think it would 05:38:37 I wonder why you aren't working as a programmer though 05:38:51 until you beat me, by writing an entire hygeinic macro expander in one wingsuit flight 05:39:25 you are not the first person to ask me that 05:39:28 I think if we introduce cars instead of wingsuits I could do a pretty good job 05:39:31 :D 05:39:53 it's partially because i spend more time doing lambda calculus and scheme, and no time at all doing ruby on rails or Java 05:40:07 and partially because my job is quite fun 05:40:19 I thought you might say that - The fun part 05:40:42 also, better pay? less hours? 05:41:26 well, i get pretty good pay and pretty few hours 05:41:31 which is a great combination 05:41:53 pretty unique actually 05:42:06 yes 05:42:13 i am lucky 05:42:27 you are :) 05:42:45 you can be a rope access tech too! http://irata.org/ 05:42:46 being happy is all what matters :) 05:43:10 I don't have the balls :D 05:43:33 I developed a phobia from heights cause of being warned about them too much 05:43:57 i used to work at a challenge/ropes course, it's great therapy for fear of heights 05:44:04 I loved heights, used to dive from high places when I did swimming 05:44:04 if you have one in your area you should go 05:44:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:44:44 I will look that up 05:45:25 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:45:50 or, start rock climbing :) 05:45:50 I learned a lot from you guys today 05:46:05 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 05:46:17 well, I plan to start skydiving then wingsuit jumping when I get my shit together 05:46:32 I wanna shake off that phobia shit 05:46:34 there ya go 05:46:39 now THAT takes balls, man! 05:46:51 It's easier than climbing :D 05:47:04 or at least I think it's cause I haven't done neither 05:48:33 idunno, only done one 05:49:21 I think you'll do good in the other :D 05:49:47 well in skydiving, if you don't do good you do really bad 05:50:41 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:04 well, the instructions are fairly straightforward 05:51:13 hahahaha 05:51:17 :D 05:51:26 I actually meant that in another way :D 05:51:46 I took a skydiving course but was too young to get real jumping clearance, so never jumped :D 05:51:53 -!- asr_ [~asr@c-76-126-245-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52:23 aw 05:53:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:55:42 pnkfelix [~user@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 05:57:26 I'm off to sleep, nice talking to ya! :) 05:57:35 good morning/night 05:57:37 goodnight likewise 05:57:55 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@79.Red-79-158-172.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:58 night man :) 06:04:43 -!- kvalle_ is now known as kvalle 06:05:26 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 06:08:56 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:15:53 brianmwaters_ [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has joined #scheme 06:16:33 mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has joined #scheme 06:17:33 -!- brianmwaters [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:21:17 goodnight channel 06:23:32 -!- brianmwaters_ [41b78511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.183.133.17] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:28:21 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 06:35:58 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:38:55 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 06:40:12 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 06:40:20 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 06:44:59 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #scheme 06:45:15 How do you guys deal with SRFI-69 tables and composite keys: CONS? 06:49:22 Also, it feels foolish doing (define neq? 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quit [Client Quit] 14:41:29 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:48:44 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:53:29 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:53:49 ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 15:01:12 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 15:13:19 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #scheme 15:23:37 pnkfelix [~user@64.213.97.194] has joined #scheme 15:26:48 I'd like to make the case that "pung" is the past tense of "ping"; it turns out that "pung" was extant in the 18th century, "pung'd" in the 17th. 15:26:52 Fuck "pinged." 15:28:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:28:12 I'd like to make the case that "pung" in Swedish means ballsack. 15:33:34 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|lunc 15:33:37 Nice! 15:33:39 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-!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:48:11 turbofail [~user@107-215-216-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:51:49 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 19:52:35 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:56:56 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:58 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:03:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:06:43 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:10:13 -!- ijp [~user@host81-155-30-200.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: The garbage collector got me] 20:18:52 aranhoide [~smuxi@79.Red-79-158-172.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:00 -!- bjz [~brendanza@CPE-121-223-37-10.lnse2.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:25:28 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD92283.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 20:29:48 ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 20:31:31 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@87.244.76.226] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 20:34:22 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:38:14 -!- ffio [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 20:44:20 edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 20:46:52 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 20:48:13 I'm a Python person that *wants* to become a lisp macro junkie so I ask.....Is there any studies/proofs that show lisp macro magic is FASTER/BETTER/ 20:48:22 convince me 20:48:33 i want to be convinced 20:49:09 faster/better than what? 20:49:24 read "on lisp" and maybe "let over lambda" 20:49:34 they explain macros (in different ways) :) 20:50:31 theseb: Let over Lambda is mostly available online. 20:52:20 on lisp too: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html 20:52:41 (personally I'd suggest on lisp is the better book to read first) 20:52:57 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 20:53:00 thanks 20:53:27 theseb: without knowing too much about python, i seem to remember reading that it didn't have proper closures? 20:53:59 also, emacs + SLIME or geiser give you an IDE that is hard to match in other languages (not sure about python) 20:54:28 I have heard that SLIME + Emacs is the way to go 20:55:17 ecraven: i'm surprised gigamonkeys.com's "Pratical Common Lisp" wasn't one of your favs 20:55:51 that will only work with a few Schemes (MIT Scheme), geiser works with Racket and Guile 2, as far as I know 20:55:57 theseb: these two books are specifically about macros, not lisp in general 20:56:05 oh i see 20:56:07 i didn't know that 20:56:17 if you want general books, look at the topic 20:56:24 SICP is freely available, for example 20:56:35 yea..i have SICP on my shelf 20:56:41 err next to me now :) 20:56:43 mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has joined #scheme 20:57:01 :) I really liked it, but opinions vary 21:03:59 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:04:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:10:37 taylanub [tub@p4FD92283.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:10:56 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:15:37 ecraven: python 3 does have more proper closures. you could hack your way around the limitations in python 2 by using mutable objects for the closed over variables 21:22:13 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:23:11 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96B51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:24 ASau` 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21:47:48 you need to declare a variable as 'nonlocal' in your local scope, so you can mutate it 21:48:12 can't the compiler just analyze this? 21:48:17 (just as you used to have 'global' in python 2) 21:48:25 ecraven: no, due to python's syntax 21:48:34 you just assign variables 21:48:37 no let 21:48:49 so it would be ambiguous 21:49:34 ah, so it's ambiguous whether this is a new local variable or a reference to an outer one? 21:54:44 ya, it's as if Scheme only had set! 21:55:01 and that was used both to modify bindings in enclosing scopes or to create a new local binding 21:55:22 in Python you just say e.g. a = 5 21:55:54 which by default creates a new local binding (unless a was already bound in the local scope) 21:56:18 you can override that with a 'global a' declaration in Python 2/3 21:56:23 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:37 which means the variable should be understood to be module scoped 21:56:43 or 'nonlocal' in python 3 21:56:47 -!- tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:54 oh god I love the fact that Scheme has set! 21:57:06 confusing definition with mutations is bad 21:57:16 theseb, Scheme macros are hygienic, meaning that they don't introduce scope bugs -- they are composable. I don't think _On Lisp_ or _Let over Lambda_ discusses them at all; the impression I've gotten is that those give a lot of examples of tasteless Lisp macros... 21:57:27 which means "just find the innermost binding of a and that will be what I refer to in this scope" 21:58:07 many schemes provide unhygienic macros, too, although that's besides the standard 21:58:41 aranhoide: the "global foo" and "nonlocal foo" crap is a hack to get around a flawed design in Python 21:58:56 nisstyre: yup, it is 21:59:06 theseb, consider Python's `[x for y in z]' notation, which is baked into the language. You don't need to bake that into Scheme -- you can build that sort of thing with macros: , . 21:59:22 pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 22:00:00 Riastradh: nice....thanks....list comprehensions are one of the nicest things i like in python fwiw 22:00:20 Riastradh: you could implement python in scheme! 22:00:45 Well, not at the level of lexical syntax, and Python has some broken semantics that would be hard to reflect in Scheme (such as its bogus idea of scope). 22:00:52 for what? what's the goal? 22:01:26 rszeno: just a hypothetical 22:01:28 That said, I seem to recall Racket -- which also supports replacing the lexical syntax -- has an implementation of Python built-in. 22:01:29 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:29 rszeno: not for real work 22:02:02 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 22:03:23 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:26 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 22:05:12 imo when sombody need to import the way of thinking and syntax from another language is a sign that could do better what ever he do in that language. 22:05:54 Not necessarily. Maybe you want to exploit a large body of existing code. 22:05:58 finaly there is no good language only adapted people to what they do, :) 22:06:17 This is why, for example, Symbolics wrote a C->Zetalisp compiler: to run an X server. 22:06:34 language translators are fantastic 22:06:38 more people should write them 22:06:43 true but this is about reusing a code base 22:06:54 also more people should write static analysis tools 22:06:58 (and use them) 22:09:09 Conversely, you might want to use a Lispy lexical syntax so that you can use paredit, if you'll excuse the blatant self-promotion... 22:09:54 i have the code somewhere, ( c to zetalisp ) i found it this year somewher 22:09:57 (I seem to recall hearing that someone hooked an SXML parser/unparser into find-file and save-buffer hooks in Emacs in order to edit XML with paredit and without losing sanity.) 22:10:46 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:11:57 Riastradh, what will happend with mit scheme? 22:12:03 What do you mean? 22:12:35 will continue to be maintained? 22:13:04 Yes. 22:13:39 is good to know, :) 22:14:10 rszeno: what if I want to cherry pick tricks from several languages? 22:14:22 i'm interested in semweb 22:14:23 aranhoide: you create a new language 22:14:25 No major projects are happening right now and the maintenance is entirely a spare-time thing by people who have full-time jobs and lives, but I'll continue to fix things and occasionally make nontrivial changes. 22:14:54 -!- jeremyheiler [~jeremyhei@cpe-72-230-245-1.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:14:59 i'm working to a n3 parser 22:15:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:15:35 MIT Scheme probably has the best IEEE 754 support of any Scheme system out there now. (Which is not saying much, of course.) 22:15:57 Riastradh: I enjoy Racket's implementations 22:19:20 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:55 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:57 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 22:26:17 Riastradh: FWIW I have an Emacs mode to edit JSON files as (Elisp) s-expressions .. 22:26:36 For paredit, or for other reasons? 22:27:09 Paredit. They look a bit nicer too .. strings for keys are hard on the eyes compared to keyword-symbols. 22:27:21 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:27:22 Riastradh, i'm more interested in sqlite support then math, :) 22:29:05 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:02 MIT Scheme needs a better story for microcode modules... 22:32:26 (I guess I could provide a link, since I mentioned it: https://github.com/taylanub/json-sexp-mode ) 22:37:00 jrapdx [~jrapdx@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:40 -!- pnkfelix [~user@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:48:05 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 22:56:53 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af4349c.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:53 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD61EFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:18 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af4356d.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:23 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@cpc14-dals15-2-0-cust157.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:42 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@c-76-114-26-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:45 -!- sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:10:35 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:15:58 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:34 sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 23:20:40 adbge [~rps@c-24-14-247-168.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:22 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:42:52 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:47:31 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@79.Red-79-158-172.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]