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01:02:38 <jerryzhou> hi
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01:11:23 <jerryzhou> hi
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01:33:45 <jerryzhou> hi
01:33:50 <jerryzhou> i have a question
01:35:00 <offby1> is it the same question that you asked two hours and twenty minutes ago?
01:35:08 <offby1> Because if so, I have the same answers.
01:35:10 <jerryzhou> yeah
01:35:25 <offby1> well, that saved some time.
01:35:26 <jerryzhou> no such file or directory ,racket
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01:40:17 <jerryzhou> so
01:40:25 <jerryzhou> do you know that
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03:19:23 <jcowan> I've been thinking about what functional-update functions for immutable pairs should look like.
03:19:41 <jcowan> My current idea is (set-car root pair newval) and (set-cdr root pair newval)
03:20:39 <jcowan> The idea is that it searches starting at root until it finds a path to pair, and then makes a new pair with the new car/cdr and the old cdr/car (as the case may be) and then copies all ancestors back to root and returns the new root.
03:21:38 <jcowan> So (list-set list index newval) becomes (set-car list (list-ref list index) newval).
03:21:46 <jcowan> Does that make sense?
03:24:12 <Riastradh> Why the traversal?
03:24:25 <Riastradh> Why not (set-car pair a) = (cons a (cdr pair))?
03:25:12 <jcowan> The names are not well-chosen, I grant.  But I think the behaviors are good ones to have, because they recognize that pairs aren't usually used just as 2-tuples, but as components of lists, trees, and DAGs.
03:25:37 <Riastradh> Application?
03:26:40 <jcowan> "Persistent" (I hate that word) lists/trees/dags on a system where immutable pairs are more efficient than mutable ones due to system optimizations.
03:27:06 <Riastradh> Application?
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03:27:48 <jcowan> I'm only willing to answer that question once, because you can iterate it indefinitely until I am reduced to saying "In order to make the Universe a better place" or some similar remark.
03:27:54 <Riastradh> I mean to ask for a real application with real working code that people use that you can point to, not just hypothesize about.
03:28:49 <jcowan> Any application that almost never, but not quite never, mutates pairs, running on an implementation where &c.
03:29:42 <Riastradh> `Real application'?  `Real working code'?  `Not just hypothesize about'?
03:32:14 <jcowan> Such a demand would have prevented Scheme, or even R2RS Scheme, from being created at all.
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03:34:31 <Riastradh> No, I don't think so.
03:35:02 <jcowan> Mmm, on reflection you are right about R2RS, but what applications existed for Scheme when the first interpreter was created?
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03:35:34 <Riastradh> Scheme arose from clarifying ideas that were incoherently (and redundantly) expressed in prior applications.
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03:36:06 <Riastradh> What you are describing is a solution in search of a problem.  You've characterized various qualities of the problem, but you haven't identified one.
03:37:26 <jcowan> In other languages people use this solution because it is readily available to them in a prepackaged way.  It is not available in a prepackaged way in Scheme.
03:37:38 <jcowan> Therefore, people find a different way to do the same thing, or express it ad hoc.
03:38:56 <Riastradh> Aha!  What other languages are these, and what are the uses you are referring to?
03:43:43 <jcowan> Apparently it is a degenerate case of a zipper, as (it seems) often used in Haskell.  I cannot point to specific Haskell applications using zippers, because I am not familiar at that level of detail with the Haskell ecosystem.
03:47:03 <Riastradh> Why don't you find some applications in Haskell that express ideas you would like to see expressed in Scheme?
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03:53:58 <jcowan> Gaining a deep understanding of how various Haskell applications are written, in order to figure how they do what they do, and how they might do it better, involves more effort than seems to me necessary.
03:54:41 <jcowan> Even if the average Haskell app is shorter than the average Java app, say, I'd still rather spend the time understanding what Java libraries provide than worrying about which parts of them happen not to be frequently used.
03:56:08 <jcowan> Granted that I may perpetuate some dords that way, I think the price of that is small.
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12:47:24 <Ainee> hello
12:48:01 <Ainee> i want to implement async io in terms of continuations, is it possible?
12:49:41 <taylanub> In the language, continuations are just functions, so I'm inclined to say it should be possible. :P
12:50:02 <taylanub> I have no idea how async IO is normally done; via "call-back" procedures ?
12:51:58 <taylanub> I suppose with continuations you could build something interesting where you write usual code that seems as if it would block, but all calls to blocking functions implicitly use call/cc to intervine the execution of other parts of the program, until the blocking call is finished and the linear code continues to be executed at the next pause of whatever is now running.
12:53:05 <carleastlund> In functional languages, I usually think of doing async communication via channel primitives, i.e. the way concurrent ML does it.  Racket has those kinds of things in it.  They use threads, which behind the scenes may be implemented with continuations, but manually doing the continuation plumbing would probably be a nightmare.
12:53:50 <carleastlund> (Off the top of my head I don't know if any of the Scheme standards have that kind of thing, I have not gotten greatly familiar with R6 or the R7 drafts.)
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12:58:08 <Ainee> ok, thanks guys.
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13:18:16 <BW^-> guys, i'm having an incredible memory leak error in a stop and copy GC environment -
13:18:30 <BW^-> so, the ordinary GC:s are induced in the code locations where the object allocation happens.
13:18:48 <BW^-> somehow, these GC calls maintain alive references from earlier code, in such a way that a constant heap growth happens = memory leak.
13:19:21 <BW^-> however, if i manually induce a GC from the REPL, then that object reference situation is dissolved, and the heap resets to its intended size. (!!)
13:19:43 <BW^-> if you have any spontaneous idea about how GC-technically this can happen, feel free to share.
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13:24:27 <BW^-> hm
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13:55:29 <jcowan> hoi
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14:26:42 <Riastradh> jcowan, the operation you described last night makes no sense whatsoever in Haskell because pairs do not have identity.  So I don't believe that it actually does have applications in Haskell.  But if you want to point to actual Haskell programs, I could be persuaded that there is a similar operation that does make sense.
14:28:05 <Riastradh> BW^-, you need to be a lot more specific about your problem.  From what you described, you could just be observing one semispace slowly filling up with no reason to GC, since the GC need not kick in until the semispace is actually full.
14:29:35 <Riastradh> taylanub, assuming threads (which ~every Scheme system has), you can use <http://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml/>.
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14:31:19 <BW^-> riastradh: thanks for your reflection.  i think i nailed it bynow .
14:31:55 <jcowan> Riastradh: I was speaking more generally about functional pairs.  Of course they don't have identity; they don't have to have identity in Scheme either, if any system provides them natively (as Racket does)
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15:10:59 <taylanub> Dehehe, I like it how easy this was to implement: http://sprunge.us/GSST?scheme  Usage: http://sprunge.us/ZHNi
15:12:43 <taylanub> (Well that's Guile-specific.  I guess it might be unobvious how `call-with-prompt' and `abort-to-prompt' work; they're primitives for delimited continuations.)
15:14:03 <jcowan> We will have delimited continuations in R7RS, but we don't have a specific proposal yet
15:14:56 *ijp* bites lip
15:19:50 <jcowan> Why?  Speak, speak!
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15:49:27 <offby1> oh the suspense
15:49:51 <jcowan> ijp: cough up!
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15:50:56 <taylanub> Well ey also owns shift-reset.com .. must be some kind of delimited-continuation fetishist.
15:51:36 <taylanub> rudybot: shoot taylanub
15:51:38 <rudybot> taylanub: ,diagnose taylanub
15:51:48 <taylanub> Insulting enough, I presume.
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15:58:33 <stamourv> gabot: slap taylanub
15:58:33 *gabot* slaps taylanub
15:58:45 <stamourv> taylanub: gabot does not share rudybot's pacifism.
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16:32:14 <ijp> stamourv: gabot can't compete with fsbot in terms of firepower
16:32:46 <jcowan> How many blammos per minute?
16:35:02 <ijp> According to my scientific measurements: lots
16:36:46 <jcowan> So what's your proposal for delimited continuations already, ijp?
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16:37:57 <ijp> mine would be tagged shift-reset, in the fashion of racket/control's shift-at reset-at
16:38:25 <ijp> but that wasn't why I was biting my lip
16:38:58 <jcowan> Oh, okay, why then?
16:39:08 <ijp> because the whole situation is very silly
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16:48:56 <offby1> or because he has an overbite
16:49:16 <jcowan> calisthenics and orthodontia: running lite without overbyte
16:49:20 <jcowan> (former title of DDJ)
16:49:32 <jcowan> (former title of former DDJ)
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16:58:16 *offby1* nods gravely
17:00:05 <offby1> jcowan: you, sir, might well enjoy https://plus.google.com/photos/110719264043637716066/albums/5890662981764780609?authkey=CJ7km-2Wg7_CUg
17:00:05 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/l7w6ukc
17:01:12 <jcowan> Thanks.  Wow, never seen a PDP-12 in the flesh (so to speak) before.
17:02:39 <offby1> I didn't even know they _existed_.
17:03:08 <offby1> They've got a DEC-20, and a fellow there who (I believe) said he's gonna get TOPS-20 emacs working ...
17:03:32 <jcowan> I didn't know *that* existed.  ITS emacs, yes, obviously.
17:03:48 <jcowan> Still, in a world containing RSTS/E Teco, anything is possible.
17:04:08 <jcowan> Teco on the bare metal, yes!
17:04:12 <offby1> I used TOPS-20 emacs back in 1985
17:04:23 <offby1> Not sure if I knew any other flavor before then, but I suspect I did
17:05:28 <cosmez> i was born in 1985, lol
17:06:00 <jcowan> A PDP-12 is basically a boxxus that can either be a PDP-8 or thug for J.H. Blair ^W^W^W^W^W LINC computer.
17:06:06 <jcowan> But not both at the same time, alas.
17:06:39 <jcowan> And when it gets an interrupt in LINC mode, it switches to 8 mode, so you need an interrupt handler if you are running LINC software that does interrupts.
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17:09:13 <jcowan> http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/07/hiring-juggler_02.html  <-- similar, happier outcome
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