00:02:35 carleastlund: Have a feeling that even after ending SICP I will have to read some book about some lisp if I want to code in it. 00:03:55 or just let that phase of your life end peacefully 00:03:56 carleastlund: Will HtDP serve for that purpose ? (not sure, maybe I will read "Practical common lisp", but as for now, I like Scheme more) 00:04:21 should I let it? 00:04:58 pumpkin360 are things you can't find in any book so you need time and practice to understand better what you know 00:09:31 perhaps will (as planned since really long) read R5RS and learn the rest "in the fire of battle" (love "Buffalo Soliders") 00:11:49 -!- b4283 [~b4283@198.199.102.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:13:01 ijp: why should I let it end? 00:13:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 00:16:05 I can't answer that politely 00:17:54 and anyway, people only seem to learn the hard way 00:18:14 b4283 [~b4283@198.199.102.93] has joined #scheme 00:18:53 learned C++ "on demmand", for algorithmics class, and don't think it is a good way of learning. 00:19:21 so now I'm wasting lots of time reading thick books. 00:21:28 concerning your answer - You can answer unpolitely, prehaps You can do it on some other channel - or via mail - orange.pumpkin360@gmail.com 00:24:32 pumpkin360, HtDP is a good book for learning basic functional idioms as well as some design processes that will pay off in any kind of programming. For sort of industrial-strength functional programming, I'm not sure there is a book out there, you just gotta do it and communicate with others that do and develop your own style based on other people's as you go. 00:24:43 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:06 ijp, I don't know what you're trying to imply, but it sounds like you're trolling hard, saying that all Lisp-like programming is some bad life choice. Please don't come to #scheme to tell us all we're idiots. 00:33:58 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63115.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:45:12 I am not saying it's a bad life choice to start, I'm saying it's a bad life choice to not end 00:46:10 You've still put it in a fairly rude, passive-agressive way. 00:46:24 I warned as much 00:46:31 frankel [~frankel@host86-160-182-194.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:47:28 I feel like I need the global state in this program, but the following procedure: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137605 -- seems a bit clunky, can anybody give me suggestions on how to write let "mutably", seems a bit hacky and not in the spirit of Scheme! 00:47:41 No, even the warning is part of the passive-aggressive pattern. Just don't bother. If you think we're wasting our lives, just let us. 00:47:55 (... how to write it less "mutably"...) 00:48:53 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 00:49:37 frankel, I wouldn't use "dotimes" for a loop to build a list, I'd use something like a named let. 00:49:53 carleastlund, why is that? 00:50:08 Oh, to save me from having to define DOTIMES! 00:50:09 Because dotimes forces you to use mutation, because each iteration doesn't return a value. 00:50:28 arguments is only needed in the else case, so you can update it in the loop in the else case functionally 00:50:30 If you want to program functionally, use recursion over imperative loops. 00:50:34 just return false directly for the then case 00:51:25 but it seems like splitting hairs when you have a mutable prn stack 00:51:31 rpn* 00:53:32 I'm not sure why I would use an immutable RPN stack (this is a sincere question, I'm not trying to be snarky, just new to this style of programming) 00:54:04 Seems like you have to mutate the stack when you're pushing and poping values in the course of a computation. 00:54:35 frankel, there are immutable versions of most data structures. An immutable Scheme list is _precisely_ an immutable stack. cons and cdr are push and pop, respectively. 00:54:50 frankel: your functions that operate on the stack, also return a new stack 00:55:00 (in a functional mind set) 00:55:51 carleastlund, oh I see. Think I might switch to Scheme list and ditch this Java stack :D 00:55:56 Just to try. 00:56:14 ijp, isn't it more expensive to do that, as opposed to working with a globally mutable stack? 00:56:51 expensive how? 00:56:57 in code performance, not really 00:57:05 in terms of readability, it depends 00:57:14 Well, it seems to my untrained eye that you're having to create new lists when you pop and push. 00:57:29 pushing requires one cons, popping requires no allocation, it's just cdr 00:57:31 frankel: you're going to have to create new stack nodes when you push and pop too, same deal. 00:57:40 same as in a mutable stack 00:58:06 ...unless you used a vector, with periodic resizing... 00:58:29 Oh yeah, I get it. 00:58:59 Thanks for your help, carleastlund and ijp! 01:06:12 -!- acedia [~rage@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:08:08 how is an internal subroutine different than a unix process? 01:08:15 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63115.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:08:23 an invoked subroutine that is 01:09:33 I'm a newbie trying to understand UNIX, which seems clunky, from a lispy point of view, which seems more organic. 01:09:49 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:12:28 we are compilers to some extent, :) 01:13:35 both are abstraction, when you talk about them you think as being asm instruction, source code, part of something we write? 01:13:42 zacts: well, communication between processes isn't limited to the call-return paradigm of functions 01:15:24 so many invocations of subroutines in a scheme program doesn't necessarily create multiple unix processes? 01:15:28 zacts: From a veeeerrrrry abstract perspective, they're not necessarily different. One could write a Lisp function that did most of the things a process does. But pragmatically, UNIX processes are set up to run things from very different languages, give them system level resources, and then get out of their way. While functions are designed for a closer-integrated pattern of use. 01:15:57 zacts, correct. Within one program, just about nothing you do will create a new process, unless you explicitly call something to create a new process. 01:16:14 ah ok, I see 01:17:10 thanks 01:18:14 so, in scheme, how do you allow multiple procedures to run at the same time, basically? 01:18:17 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:30 basically, you don't 01:18:32 there is no fork in scheme, right? 01:19:08 zacts, I'm pretty sure there is no portable way. But many Scheme implementations have way to do that. I know Racket has UNIX system calls to create processes, plus in-language parallelism constructs called futures and places. 01:19:09 you can fake multitasking with continuations, but that isn't quite the answer you are after 01:24:57 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63115.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:24:58 how do event loops work in a nutshell? how is it that emacs can run more than one thing at a time. I guess it's not a "loop", but pure procedure calls? 01:26:08 When you can't do more computation and you need to wait for a letter to arrive in the mail before you can proceed, you return to the event loop to let someone else use the CPU for a while. 01:27:00 so non-blocking is when you don't wait for the letter to return, while blocking each process waits for the letter to return? 01:27:41 Yes, non-blocking means you check whether it's ready now but continue regardless. Blocking means your process won't continue until the event it's waiting on is ready. 01:28:12 so I shouldn't be seeing this as a while loop, for example, but as procedure calls? 01:29:33 I'm not sure how to answer that. A program with an event loop might involve many loops and/or procedure calls. 01:29:36 analogy between code structure and execution could go wrong 01:30:15 ok, well ty. ^_^ I'll continue reading my books and code, I think I'm starting to understand better 01:31:07 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 01:31:16 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:31:20 it will all make sense one day. I'm reading the minix book, and I'm reading the middle of simply scheme right now. 01:33:22 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 01:34:46 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:24 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:45 zacts, in case you need it, http://www.usingcsp.com/ 01:45:01 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@ageu62.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:48:22 neat 01:51:29 alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63115.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 01:55:00 banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:18 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:15:30 tacey [~tacey@219.246.48.67] has joined #scheme 02:16:13 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:55 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:25:25 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:52 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:32:06 hey zacts 02:32:13 I've been reading that book 02:32:40 shouldn't take much to finish it but I have to go back and finish some of the exercises/examples 02:33:14 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 02:33:47 -!- parenjitsu [~user@adsl-184-42-4-147.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:05 cool, I'm going to try to finish it within the next couple of weeks (with exercises). I've got many projects going on though.. 02:35:47 -!- pierpa [~user@host111-221-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:41:39 simply scheme or sicp? 02:42:03 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:47:34 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:47:35 simply scheme 02:47:48 are you thru simply scheme yet? 02:48:22 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:47 yeah sorry duh 02:52:51 getting there 02:53:35 i feel like I know the content already because I've studied a lot of SICP already and for a while now, but the examples are really interesting 02:54:09 all the cool compound procedures he shows you, you get a good feeling for the power of lisp.. 02:55:15 and higher order functions 02:56:46 tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:05:53 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:55 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 03:09:57 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD63115.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:10 yeah 03:23:46 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 03:29:22 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:16 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 03:35:13 -!- zbigniew [~zb@173.230.137.156] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:35:43 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:57:51 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 03:58:52 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:58:59 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:59:43 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 04:02:30 -!- brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:02:50 dessos 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[~amoe@host-2-96-236-139.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 06:43:30 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:43:51 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@78.147.163.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:45:06 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:49:02 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 06:49:26 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:49:45 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 06:51:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:54:56 -!- tzvy [~tzvy@121-73-11-13.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 06:58:43 michaelss [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has joined #scheme 06:59:06 Hello who here is really good with scheme but also knows about drracket 06:59:41 michaelss, you didn't like my help in #racket, you probably won't like it any better here. 06:59:58 oooh carleastlund i dced 07:00:00 lol 07:00:27 so i didnt get any of the messages 07:02:11 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:29 michaelss, you need help or want to make a top? :) 07:12:41 -!- tacey [~tacey@219.246.48.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:56 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 07:18:41 -!- michaelss [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:19:55 Michaelzhou [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has joined #scheme 07:24:16 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:25:37 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 07:30:13 Gmind [~TheTrung@123.16.225.3] has joined #scheme 07:40:38 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:42:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:37 -!- Gmind 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quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:03:56 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:04:37 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.93.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:04:54 teleScope [~cong@183.219.97.28] has joined #scheme 09:15:20 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 09:20:27 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 09:27:01 -!- ffio_ [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:01 -!- redSnow [~Thunderbi@58.249.118.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:31:10 Michaelzhou [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has joined #scheme 09:32:46 hello 09:37:36 -!- Michaelzhou [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has left #scheme 10:01:36 redSnow [~Thunderbi@58.249.118.176] has joined #scheme 10:06:03 aranhoide [~smuxi@13.Red-81-33-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:08:02 -!- ecloud_ [~quassel@cm-84.208.147.184.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:09 -!- Okasu 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[~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:32 -!- pyro- is now known as DrunkeedPANDA 10:59:35 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 10:59:46 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 11:09:32 jewel [~jewel@41.160.61.154] has joined #scheme 11:20:28 -!- tenq [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:25:02 zhouzin [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has joined #scheme 11:25:25 is anyone here got at racket or scheme 11:29:25 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 11:31:23 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #scheme 11:31:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 11:31:23 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 11:35:20 -!- zhouzin [42f45de5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.244.93.229] has left #scheme 11:41:08 acarrico [~acarrico@cable54-3-142.stoweaccess.com] has joined #scheme 11:41:46 never heard of them! 11:49:08 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:50:14 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 12:06:34 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-252-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 12:07:38 -!- poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:09:46 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-252-90.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:17:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.160.61.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:37 -!- main [~main@ageu62.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:22:47 main [~main@aggi113.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 12:25:11 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:43:44 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 12:48:03 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:22 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined 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13:39:58 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 13:51:07 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 14:06:19 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 14:23:19 redSnow1 [~Thunderbi@58.249.118.176] has joined #scheme 14:23:22 -!- redSnow [~Thunderbi@58.249.118.176] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:28 I got at racket, but my gun jammed 14:48:35 LOL 14:50:40 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 14:51:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-252-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:32 that's why I'm hiding in Mexico 15:06:47 in six months nobody will care, so I can come back 15:16:01 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:53 -!- stamourv` [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:07 stamourv` [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:25:27 -!- preflex 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did anyone here read "Structure and interpretation of Classical Mechanics" ? Is it comparable quality of SICP ? 16:17:43
and is basic of calculus enough to read it ? 16:26:57 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:28 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:29:33 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 16:30:02 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:06 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:48 add^_ [~user@m176-70-15-126.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:55:17 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:55:34 tupi [~user@189.60.57.97] has joined #scheme 16:56:26 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:18 jonrafkind [~jon@c-50-131-54-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:18 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@c-50-131-54-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:18 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 17:15:51 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:19:12 so is it an unspoken rule that blocks of scheme code shouldn't have any blank lines? 17:19:30 i looked through a few style guides and couldn't find any mention of it specifically 17:19:36 No? 17:19:37 Generally, yes. 17:19:47 but in practice i rarely see them 17:20:09 *add^_* doesn't understand the question it seems 17:20:26 add^_: say inside of a (define (func) ...) block 17:20:40 it's very rare for me to see blank lines separating things in scheme 17:20:50 in the same way they're there in most procedural languages (i.e. C, python) 17:21:34 There's at least one style guide advising against them... 17:21:43 like (+ 1 17:21:46 1) 17:21:47 ? 17:21:52 add^_, no, a blank line altogether. 17:21:54 (define (fact x) 17:21:57 (if (< x 2) 17:21:58 17:22:02 1 17:22:04 17:22:14 (* x (fact (- x 1))))) 17:22:51 right 17:22:59 Riastradh: do you have a link to said style guide? 17:23:12 Not handily. It predated the web by a decade. 17:23:19 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:38 Right 17:23:46 Then I agree 17:23:59 At least in that block, with the if. 17:24:42 That said, it's probably more common to serveral functions do their own thing than make one large function do lots of things.. 17:24:44 yeah i would agree in that case too 17:24:53 In Scheme 17:25:02 +make 17:33:17 I've used blank lines in functions to separate internal definitions, but that's about it 17:33:41 Indeed 17:36:43 I think that style guide is on a disk with a peculiar interface for which the only machine I have has a half-dead motherboard. 17:39:30 technology doesn't die, it just becomes too much effort to use 17:39:58 *offby1* writes legacy code for a living 17:40:04 writing some really nice stuff now 17:43:23 -!- main [~main@aggi113.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:31 -!- gravicappa 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#scheme 21:57:44 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-28.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:42 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:12:59 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:13:01 -!- jvloothuis [~jeroen@D97AE4E7.cm-3-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: jvloothuis] 22:21:35 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 22:23:47 -!- imh [~imh@108-90-41-180.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:06 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD605F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:29:03 adiii [~adityavit@c-68-45-152-123.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:24 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.25.95] has joined #scheme 22:46:21 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:32 I'm trying to both learn Scheme and to write programs in a functional style (to an extent!), I would appriciate any stylistic/structuring advice on my first Scheme program: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137618 -- the START-RPN and RPN-EVAL procedures in particular bother me, but I couldn't work out how to write them better whilst keeping the error handling. 22:50:16 -!- davexunit [~user@pool-71-162-77-127.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Later] 22:52:16 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:58:45 frankel: rebinding stack is useless. 22:59:05 Oops, sorry, It's a named let. 23:00:14 What bothers you in rpn-eval, it looks quite nice. 23:04:16 frankel, don't use EVAL that way. Do (install-function 'sin sin 1), (install-function '+ + 2), &c., not (install-function 'sin (eval 'sin) 1). The behaviour of one-argument EVAL is nonstandard, unpredictable, and essentially a bug. 23:04:29 What about letting the user enter quit at any position in the line? Eg. I could type: 1 2 + quit 3 4 RET 23:09:42 -!- agumonkey [~agu@194.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:17 is short-circuiting functions (i.e. call/cc) considered bad form in scheme? 23:13:50 You don't need to wrap the body of a definition in BEGIN, or return OK unless you particularly want to mask the result of HASHTABLE-SET!. 23:15:19 You have duplicated the expression (read in) throughout RPN-EVAL -- in every call to RPN. Instead, consider writing (let rpn ((stack stack)) (let ((tok (read in))) ...)). 23:16:09 I would split RPN-EVAL into two parts: one that loops over every term, and one that executes a single term. 23:17:29 wrl: With "short-circuit" do you mean something like "return" ? 23:17:43 pjb, thanks for the quit idea, that's more sensible :) 23:17:56 taylanub: yeah 23:18:17 taylanub: i'm looping over an array and testing each element. when i find one that matches, i `return` it 23:18:36 right now i've got a named let loop, but i'm playing with for-each 23:18:42 and it seems like call/cc is the only way to break out of that 23:18:44 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-170.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:20:02 Riastradh, about the calling (read in) everywhere, I think I would still need to call (read in) even if I established a new let-binding, right? 23:21:12 Seems like the same thing as keep the binding in the named let to me. 23:21:39 Yeah, it would be much better to split this into two parts :) 23:22:21 Of course you still need to evaluate (read in), but you need to write it down only once. 23:22:40 That reduces the clutter of your code, and if you ever have to change (read in) to something else you have only one place to change it in. 23:22:54 wrl: it is not considered bad style, but it is not particularly common in general 23:23:02 s/in general// 23:23:32 rudybot: protip: if you edit the message you typed in your irc client, read it again before hitting return 23:23:32 ijp: protip: one-window-p 23:24:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/137619 23:24:31 here's what i've got 23:24:34 wrl, I wouldn't use FOR-EACH in that case. I would use FIND, or a loop macro such as . 23:24:35 Riastradh, I need to read a new token after I've done the processing for the previous token though, if I were to call READ before I have processed the current token, it seems I would be blocking myself. 23:25:32 Some implementations have this handy "escape continuation" feature, similar to CL's "block" in usage: (let/ec return (for-each (lambda (x) (if (test x) (return x))) xs)) 23:25:40 Riastradh, also, the EVAL problem, I can't see how to use FOR-EACH using that suggestion. 23:25:51 taylanub: an escape continuation is just a restriction of call/cc 23:26:04 Well, I guess the notion of an escape-continuation is orthogonal to the possibility of having a syntax-form like CL's `block'. 23:26:16 frankel: (for-each (lambda (x) (install-function (car x) (cadr x) 2)) (list (list '+ +) (list '- -) ...)) 23:26:24 except that I vaguely recall someone, riastradh? performing some trickery to prove that statement wrong 23:26:35 maybe I was dreaming 23:26:36 Oh right, I see where you're coming from. That's ugly :( 23:26:45 frankel, my suggestion is that you read the token at the beginning of the loop. 23:26:53 wrl: It looks like you just want something like ormap. You don't need continuations, escape or otherwise, if you just structure your iteration to finish where it needs to. You're shoehorning for-each into a situation it's not designed for. 23:26:54 Maybe a macro would tidy this up. 23:27:13 Riastradh, Ah, right. Thanks very much for your suggestions, much appreciated! 23:27:24 carleastlund: yeah that's what i'm thinking. the named let seems `right` but just looked a bit ugly to me, i guess? 23:27:33 i'm coming from the C world so maybe my eyes just need to adjust 23:28:38 wrl, That looks fine. If "let loop" looks odd to you, you can always write a named-let as a separate helper function. 23:30:30 carleastlund: it was more the caar, cdar, etc. just seems weird at first 23:31:08 I hate those names. I try to use the first, second, ..., tenth as much as I can instead :D 23:31:16 wrl, I program where car is first, cdr is rest, and cdar is second. That's standard in Racket and I think at least some of those names are in SRFI 1 in other Schemes too. 23:31:29 that's not a bad idea 23:31:31 And you can always define them yourself. 23:31:33 it felt kinda like 23:31:37 in forth they say that too much stack manipulation is a code smell 23:31:43 frankel, what you're doing with EVAL is ugly for the following reason: it makes the semantics of your program depend on the names you used for the variables in your program. Normally, in Scheme, (let ((x 5)) ... (f x) ...) reliably behaves identically to (let ((y 5)) ... (f y) ...), but the use of a single-argument EVAL breaks that. 23:31:51 so i was sort of squinting my eyes like "is cadar a code smell already?" 23:31:52 most of the real world uses of c[ad]{2,}r are covered by list-ref and drop 23:32:32 -!- mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:34:02 Riastradh, thanks for the warning. I need to look into EVAL more closely. It seems like it should hardly ever be used! 23:34:33 *wrl* reads up on SRFI 1 23:34:43 But I get a feeling of cuteness every time I use it :( 23:35:49 Indeed, it should hardly ever be used. 23:37:46 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:39:36 frankel, your intuition is right. Basically eval is only for when your program's main job is executing arbitrary code from an external source. Other than that, it's best avoided. 23:41:22 carleastlund, thanks for the clarification! 23:41:24 how to tell if you need eval: Would you be willing to write a 30 page report outlining the need for eval 23:45:02 :) 23:48:57 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 23:49:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-170.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:51:32 carleastlund: seems that srfi-1 `find` does what i need actually 23:51:42 There you go! 23:52:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/137620 23:52:40 not bad. 23:52:49 i need to find an indentation style that i'm okay with though! 23:52:50 heh. 23:53:03 The default one of Emacs. 23:53:11 i'll try that. 23:53:16 this is the default vim indent right now 23:53:28 Hrm, that won't tell you where to do and not do put newlines though. 23:54:02 http://blog.racket-lang.org/2012/09/i-write-funny-lookin-racket-code.html 23:54:10 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:54:11 For instance in the (let ((sal ... most people would find a few of those newlines redundant. 23:54:32 Submitted as one option or just for your amusement. :) 23:54:39 taylanub: yeah agreed 23:55:19 i liked having all the code out to the right a little less 23:57:46 Hrm, the above link definitely doesn't represent what I was trying to say though. 23:59:12 carleastlund: nicely written. (I read it when you originally posted it but it's pleasant to have read it again) 23:59:22 thanks :) 23:59:33 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]