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ZZZzzz] 21:30:42 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:30:55 when did Scheme fix the traditional flaws it had with numerical computation that I find in very old articles? 21:31:36 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:31:43 What traditional flaws do you mean? 21:32:14 apparently old Schemes were slow at handling numerical computations. 21:32:39 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:53 not at my desktop to browse history, and if I were I probably wouldn't find it. Firefox history searches suck. 21:33:53 They still are unless you are very careful, and then you can get moderate performance with a lot of effort. 21:34:18 -!- stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:34:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-209-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:34:25 aeth: The "flaw" might be that in Scheme you actually get mathematically accurate results. 21:34:38 (You can deliberately change that though.) 21:35:03 See, e.g., for an example of effort that yields moderate performance; note in particular the matrix multiplication code, which is naive and hairy. 21:35:23 -!- stamourv`` [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:35 stamourv`` [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:35:55 (That code is for MIT Scheme; except for Gambit, all the other ones are terrible at numerical computation.) 21:36:38 stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:36:39 -!- stamourv [~user@ahuntsic.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 21:36:39 stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has joined #scheme 21:37:34 I guess I should put that code into MIT Scheme at some point. 21:42:27 aeth: that depends on the scheme implementation you use. I'm pretty sure there are implementations that allow you to declare certain variables as 32/64-bit integers or floats or whatever 21:42:40 of course that means you lose the accuracy that scheme provides by default 21:43:03 That's the effort I was talking about. 21:43:30 It will get you at most as fast as a dumb C or Fortran compiler for the numerical computation. 21:46:24 Matrices as fast as Fortran? 21:48:02 You can look at the assembly that MIT Scheme generates for the above matrix multiplication code with (fluid-let ((compiler:generate-lap-files? #t)) (cf "mit-matrix")) and examining mit-matrix.lap. It will look like the assembly generated by a dumb C or Fortran compiler for naive matrix multiplication code. 21:49:05 (No nice instruction scheduling or vectorization for the 2x2 case, &c.) 21:50:36 It's good enough for plenty of casual uses and for experimentation, and it's a lot nicer than messing around with Matlab, but it's not going to set any high-performance computing speed records. 21:50:53 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #scheme 21:51:56 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:52:49 Riastradh: For the record, Typed Racket has pretty good numeric performance. 21:53:28 `Pretty good' as in `comparable to a dumb C or Fortran compiler on naive code'? 21:54:18 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 21:54:42 ehaliewicz: is this being pushed for as a library in r7rs-large, then, if it's currently implementation-dependent? 21:55:17 Riastradh: Not sure, haven't compared against C/Fortran. It's comparable to Gambit. 21:55:30 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@231.Red-79-157-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:34 Riastradh: Moore's law means for most use cases you don't need speed records, you just need to be good enough, imo. 21:56:02 e.g. I've personally had no problem with GNU Octave even though it's supposed to be relatively slow. 21:57:26 stamourv, OK, so, probably as I said. 21:57:42 aeth: no idea, i'm mostly a common lisp guy 21:59:24 *LeoNerd* wonders on the word "fluid" in fluid-let 21:59:58 aeth, if GNU Octave is fast enough, then Scheme (or, MIT Scheme or Gambit or apparently Typed Racket) can probably be made fast enough with effort -- maybe less effort than has been put into GNU Octave, because the language over there is insane, but there has been a lot of effort put into Octave for numerical computation over the decades. 22:02:40 Riastradh: well, for me it's fast enough. I've heard people complain about its speed. I have a 2.8 GHz quadcore i7 so ymmv (looks like my processor's starting to get slow relative to the newer i5/i7 processors). 22:08:22 If you want to implement fancy pointwise algorithms, or fancy specialized matrix algorithms, it'll take a lot of effort to get it fast. If you're OK with naive matrix multiplication and your problems are highly vectorizable, it'll be easy to get decent performance. 22:08:23 *taylanub* is a firm member of the "fast-enough" camp, as opposed to "as fast as possible." :) 22:09:51 LeoNerd: As somewhat of a synonym for "dynamic" maybe ? That's what I always assumed. 22:10:47 Hrm.. Yeah; "dynamic" I could have been happier with; similar to dynamic-wind 22:11:22 hydraulic-let 22:11:28 Hehe. 22:12:09 taylanub: I personally prefer an algorithm I can read to one that's as fast as possible, but I'm biased because I've been reading a lot of code lately. 22:12:30 aeth, why don't you play around and see whether you can get the performance you need? 22:13:22 I realize I didn't put a licence on or mit-vector.scm (the latter of which you need to use the former), but it's copyright me (Taylor R Campbell) and you can use it under the GPLv3+. 22:14:39 Fedora seems to have bigloo, chicken, gauche, guile, sigscheme, and kawa only. :-/ 22:14:53 on a related note, it'd be cool to get some sort of port of http://projects.csail.mit.edu/church/wiki/Church to other schemes 22:15:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:13 Just fetch it from . 22:15:58 turbofail, well, there's probscheme. I seem to recall that there was some fundamental difference between probscheme and church, but I forget what it was; it's been years since I thought about either. 22:16:34 Oh, to other Schemes. 22:16:46 I dunno whether Alexey ever made probscheme work on anything but MIT Scheme. 22:17:39 well, that's a rather chicken-and-egg problem... requires an existing MIT/GNU Scheme. 22:17:44 No, it doens't. 22:17:47 doesn't 22:18:10 supposed to download the binary and not the source? 22:18:13 Fetch the i386 or amd64 binary distribution. 22:18:24 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #scheme 22:18:29 Or, if you're on another platform, the portable C binary distribution. 22:18:31 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:18:49 hm. looks like vicare is a little bit less dead than i thought 22:25:33 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:28 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:28:53 -!- carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 22:29:05 carleastlund [~carleastl@209-6-40-238.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:30:17 Riastradh: I downloaded the x86-64 and I still get an error, this time in the make and not the ./configure. is there a channel specific to mit scheme? maybe I should take this there. 22:31:04 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 22:36:36 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-158-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- mrowe [~mrowe@markab.mojain.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- InvalidC1 [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f826-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- klutometis [~klutometi@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:36 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:40:26 -!- Blice [~blice@alrig.ht] has quit [Ping timeout: 273 seconds] 22:41:30 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-158-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:41:44 tenq [~tenqnewse@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:53 Blice [~blice@94.76.253.53] has joined #scheme 22:47:08 -!- tenq [~tenqnewse@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:48:15 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 mrowe [~mrowe@markab.mojain.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 InvalidC1 [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f826-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:15 klutometis [~klutometi@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has joined #scheme 22:48:17 *rudybot* bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot 22:49:58 aeth, in case you got eaten by that netsplit: Did you run `make compile-microcode' as the instructions at specified? (I hope to fix the build system at some point to remove that and other silliness.) 22:49:58 http://tinyurl.com/5aaa93 22:51:14 tenq [~tenqnewse@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:24 now I get different errors. 22:52:30 c compilation is an exercise in errors :-P 22:52:50 ? 22:55:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/137500 22:56:05 just the error part 22:56:17 ./configure --without-db4 22:56:20 Sorry, 22:56:21 ./configure --without-db-4 22:57:06 wow now it works 22:57:09 magic :o 22:57:20 OK, good. (That's something else we need to take out of the usual build...) 22:58:31 gensym` [~user@189.62.37.227] has joined #scheme 23:00:27 inarru [~inarru@host86-144-41-111.range86-144.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:31 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:31 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- mrowe [~mrowe@markab.mojain.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- InvalidC1 [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f826-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- klutometis [~klutometi@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:01:32 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:04:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 mrowe [~mrowe@markab.mojain.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 InvalidC1 [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f826-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 snarkyboojum_ [~snarkyboo@67-23-4-190.static.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:51 klutometis [~klutometi@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has joined #scheme 23:04:53 *rudybot* bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot 23:11:54 -!- ohama [ohama@cicolina.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:20 -!- inarru [~inarru@host86-144-41-111.range86-144.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:26:37 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6139D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:28:17 aeth, anyway, let me know if you have any questions. 23:32:34 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:37:18 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 23:45:27 Riastradh: so I have to download your matrix file and it'll run? might take me a while to have feedback. I have to brush up on linear algebra to find a way to push it. I'm an evil tester. :-) 23:46:37 Download mit-vector.scm and mit-matrix.scm, run (cf "mit-vector") (cf "mit-matrix"), and then (load "mit-vector") (load "mit-matrix"), and you can mess with matrices. 23:47:02 Poke around in the code to find what's available. 23:47:16 (There's nothing terribly interesting; it was just carefully written to avoid needless heap allocation.) 23:47:42 Riastradh: what binary does it install as when I make install? 23:48:01 there doesn't appear to be an mit 23:48:10 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 23:48:13 oh, whoops, had to open a new shell 23:48:19 been a while >.< 23:48:35 rehash 23:50:48 so it's this? http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-matrix.scm and http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-vector.scm 23:52:28 inquiryqueue [~kepod@38.126.147.227] has joined #scheme 23:56:58 got it 23:58:09 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 23:58:09 Yes. 23:58:25 any documentation? :-)