00:00:25 `eqv?' on pairs check whether the pair (values) are the same pair or not 00:00:51 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-163-65.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 00:01:58 ok, now I understand ( or at least think so ). 00:02:07 Thanks very much 00:02:45 and it checks the equality of pointers but checking the place they point to ? 00:02:54 (memory) 00:03:56 a pair (value) conceptually contains two locations 00:04:33 but how does it compare them if one of the location is another pair ? 00:06:38 it compares the location in the memory to which the values point ? 00:06:56 looking at the chanscroll it just occurred to me, at one point i knew both people in the scheme development or proximal community; and others wishing to buy the apple lisa 00:07:17 perhaps one of the major american prosperity failings of all time, eh 00:12:19 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:27 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:51 bay. thanks for help ski, really happy because it is likely I would have wasted much more time if not You. 00:14:59 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@aggr215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:15:12 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 00:17:31 prb (*pees convention) 00:25:30 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:03 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 00:31:27 Gooder` [~user@45.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:05 -!- bone- [~b@adsl-76-237-176-215.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:35:02 cky [~cky@fsf/member/cky] has joined #scheme 00:35:11 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:25 -!- edw [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:44:58 -!- cosmez [~cosmez@200.92.100.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:57 qu1j0t3 [~qu1j0t3@kvm5.telegraphics.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:49:18 y'all know about MIT Press' 50% off coupon until 3 June? I'm just about to buy the Reasoned Schemer... 00:49:34 http://mitpress.mit.edu/content/spread-knowledge-sale-details 00:52:59 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:59 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:52:59 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 01:00:58 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:15 arquebus [~frath@99-184-250-16.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:23 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:06:02 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:06:04 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:29 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:09:30 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 01:12:06 -!- robot-beethoven 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hi, why if (define a 0) (define b 0), (eq? a b) evaluates to #t ? 23:13:03 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:13:06 `eq?' is not guaranteed to equate numbers. 23:13:10
On wikipedia it is written that "eq?" checks of the equality of the memory which represents the variables 23:13:12 For that, you want `='. 23:13:23 Yes, that's correct. 23:13:34
and a != b 23:13:43 In most implementation, 0 would be always represented using the same bit pattern. 23:13:47 rudybot: (eq? 0 0) 23:13:47 stamourv``: your sandbox is ready 23:13:48 stamourv``: ; Value: #t 23:14:10 But if you have an implementation without fixnums that boxes everything, then they may not be `eq?'. 23:14:18 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:44
so it is the fixnum implementation which messes my mind up ? 23:15:07 Re memory: it checks what's at each location for equality, not the locations themselves. 23:15:44 I wouldn't use `eq?' for cases where you know you'll get numbers. 23:15:46
and if I want to check wether the location is the same ( the same variable ) ? 23:16:08 Really, I wouldn't use `eq?' pretty much ever, except in very rare circumstances. 23:16:26 You can't. Schemes don't usually expose that. 23:16:46 In fact, the fact that `a' and `b' are distinct variables may get optimized away by the compiler. 23:17:07 If they're both 0, and never mutated, then they probably won't even be in the compiled program. 23:18:12
but if I have a list with entries with same values eq? will distinct them ? 23:18:57 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:19:15
rudybot: (define a (list 1 1 1)) 23:19:16 main: your sandbox is ready 23:19:16 main: Done. 23:19:28
(eq? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:19:37
rudybot: (eq? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:19:37 main: ; Value: #t 23:19:44
rudybot: (eqv? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:19:45 main: ; Value: #t 23:19:58 It depends entirely on what these values are. 23:20:34 As I said, `eq?''s behavior depends entirely on how your implementation represents things, and on whether the compiler decided to make things distinct or not. 23:20:54 You shouldn't use it, except in *very* rare cases. 23:21:08 If you want a general equality predicate, use `equal?'. 23:21:23
rudybot: (equal? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:21:24 main: ; Value: #t 23:21:55 `equal?' also has the advantage, in Racket at least, of being extensible. 23:22:08 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #scheme 23:22:16 You can define new kinds of datatypes, and define custom equality for those. 23:22:24 Here's an example: 23:22:27 rudybot: init racket 23:22:28 stamourv``: your sandbox is ready 23:22:35
but how can I check if the second 1 is distinct from the first one ? 23:23:24
rudybot: (eq? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:23:24 main: ; Value: #t 23:23:26
rudybot: (eqv? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:23:27 main: ; Value: #t 23:23:31
rudybot: (equal? (car a) (cadr a)) 23:23:32 main: ; Value: #t 23:23:53
ok, my fault 23:24:06
rudybot: (equal? a (cdr a)) 23:24:06 main: ; Value: #f 23:24:08 rudybot: (struct foo (x ignore) #:methods gen:equal+hash ((define (equal-proc x y e?) (e? (foo-x x) (foo-x- y))))) 23:24:09 stamourv``: error: guard-for-prop:gen:equal+hash: contract violation expected: (vector/c (procedure-arity-includes/c 3) (procedure-arity-includes/c 2) (procedure-arity-includes/c 2)) given: '#(# #f #f) 23:24:10
rudybot: (eq? a (cdr a)) 23:24:10 main: ; Value: #f 23:24:15
rudybot: (eqv? a (cdr a)) 23:24:15 main: ; Value: #f 23:24:26
heh. 23:24:37
and in what cases should I use eq? 23:24:38
? 23:24:40 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 23:24:46 rudybot: (struct foo (x ignore) #:methods gen:equal+hash ((define (equal-proc x y e?) (e? (foo-x x) (foo-x- y))) (define (hash-proc x y) #f) (define (hash2-proc x y) #f))) 23:24:46 stamourv``: Done. 23:24:57 rudybot: (equal? (foo 1 2) (foo 1 3)) 23:24:57 stamourv``: error: foo-x-: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 23:25:07 rudybot: (struct foo (x ignore) #:methods gen:equal+hash ((define (equal-proc x y e?) (e? (foo-x x) (foo-x y))) (define (hash-proc x y) #f) (define (hash2-proc x y) #f))) 23:25:08 stamourv``: Done. 23:25:09 rudybot: (equal? (foo 1 2) (foo 1 3)) 23:25:10 stamourv``: ; Value: #t 23:25:12 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:13 There we go. 23:25:27 Re telling 1s apart: You can't, and you shouldn't. 23:25:39 Re using `eq?': Never is a good first approximation. 23:25:55 It's mostly a performance hack / relic from the past. 23:26:11
ok. 23:26:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 23:26:48
but the pairs are distinct, I mean entries of the list, and that's what I wanted to check. 23:27:02
How are they checked of equality? 23:27:10
In constant time I guess? 23:27:33
Am I right? (by comparing the "pointers") 23:28:01 If they're the same, `equal?' will return #t immediately. If not, it will traverse enough of the structure to tell them apart. 23:28:25 `eq?' will do pointer comparison, and may give you unpredictable / implementation-dependent results. 23:28:40 Which is why it's only useful as a performance hack. 23:29:18
but if the lists are cyclic ? 23:29:30
equal? will hang ? 23:30:09 It shouldn't. 23:30:23 At least, reasonable implementations will do cycle detection. 23:30:35
and how can it immediately tell if they are the same ? 23:30:55 `equal?' starts by doing pointer equality. 23:31:13 Then falls back to looking at the structure if they're not the same pointer. 23:31:27 But that's all implementation details. 23:31:50 If you want to understand what it all means, I recommend your implementation's documentation. 23:31:56 Racket's is excellent. 23:31:59 rudybot: doc eq? 23:32:00 stamourv``: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/booleans.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._eq~3f)) 23:32:01
but is it specified in R5RS ? (guess I should finally read it but trying to end SICP before) 23:32:08 *stamourv``* shrugs. 23:32:10 Maybe? 23:32:25 R5RS has a tendency to underspecify things. 23:32:38 So it probably doesn't have a definitive answer. 23:32:47
that's what's nice about scheme 23:32:48
:) 23:33:14 Not if you're trying to write reliable programs. 23:33:53
Wouldn't do it in scheme anyways probably. 23:35:12 Racket is very good for writing reliable programs, it goes a long way to specify its behavior precisely. 23:35:24
You know quite much and advice racket, prehaps it is worth checking. Is there a way of striping it of all the fancy extensions ? 23:35:42 You don't have to use the extensions. 23:35:58 But it turns out that a lot of them are useful when programming. 23:36:19 *stamourv``* <3 keyword arguments, structs, contracts, syntax object macros, etc. 23:36:51
are You in racket development team ? 23:37:08 I am. 23:38:30
So You are not the first of the racket developers which encourage me to use it. Thanks for all the help, it was priceless, would spend hours going through the docs trying to find everything out. 23:38:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:39:01 No problem! Let me know if you have more questions. :) 23:39:17 Also, feel free to join the #racket channel. A lot of us hang out there. 23:40:47
will have that in mind the next time I will be seeking help (is it even grammatically correct? This isn't my native language). 23:41:07 -!- qu1j0t3 [~qu1j0t3@kvm5.telegraphics.com.au] has left #scheme 23:42:47 Yep, that makes sense. 23:43:01 May be more idiomatic to say "next time I seek help". 23:43:06 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable010.136-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:09 *stamourv``* is not a native speaker either. 23:43:38
yeah that sound a lot better. 23:43:53
*sounds 23:47:35 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 23:51:37 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 23:58:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]