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[~cdidd@95-27-69-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:21:14 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:22:20 fzappa [~user@int.emakina.nl] has joined #scheme 07:25:15 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 07:31:25 jrapdx1 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:34:25 -!- jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:37:12 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:39:27 yeming [~user@180.168.36.194] has joined #scheme 07:47:01 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:48:39 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:50:25 -!- jrapdx1 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:52:02 jewel, maybe you are interested in this http://super.para.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~tasuku/sc/index.html 07:52:30 see the publications section too 07:54:41 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 07:59:41 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:01:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:02:33 -!- karswell` [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:03:06 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 08:03:06 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:03:06 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:04:03 -!- cinolt [~cinolt@108-230-150-77.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:08:03 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 08:09:30 rszeno, interesting, I'm not sure I understand how the backtracking works. The examples shown in the "backtracking based load balancing" paper have the user manually writing undo operations. Sounds like something suitable for an expert trying to parallelize a program 08:10:12 was posted yestrday on #lisp 08:10:32 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 08:10:52 but i was thinking not the parallel stuff but the intermediate language use to bind lisp with c 08:11:42 i was thinking that maybe you could 'stole' the idea for church 08:12:38 is a source to source translator 08:12:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:12:50 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 08:12:50 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:12:50 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:14:14 civodul [~user@pluto.sophia.inria.fr] has joined #scheme 08:16:24 elf is finaly a binary string, :) 08:19:43 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:24:18 rszeno, yes, so my idea is to avoid the C compiler and compile straight to native code 08:24:58 yes, i understand this from sources, :) 08:26:27 rszeno, the first part of my compiler is a 'source to source' translation (to a lower level language). The last part that goes down to native code should really be called a compiler though. 08:27:11 ok, :) 08:28:20 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 08:28:41 i probably didn't understand clear compiler stages for church 08:32:59 It's quite conventional, for Church there's parsing, macro expansion, lexical analysis, translation to low level language (State). For State there is parsing (sexp parsing), lexical analysis, machine code generation, elf output 08:36:04 bambam [~bambam@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:36:12 could someone help me understand call/cc 08:39:19 -!- agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:41:38 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 08:45:48 what is baste is the low level language, State? 08:53:46 rszeno, Church-State are a high level/low level language pair. Baste is a new experimental low level language I'm working on, it's not used yet 08:56:53 i didn't see the blog untill now, sorry for useless questions, :) 08:58:56 bambam, don't ask for permision, ask the questions, somebody will probably help 09:07:46 jrapdx1 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:10:53 -!- jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:15:37 -!- ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pktonyfiyreynxmj] has quit [Changing host] 09:15:37 ggherdov [uid11402@unaffiliated/ggherdov] has joined #scheme 09:15:37 -!- ggherdov [uid11402@unaffiliated/ggherdov] has quit [Changing host] 09:15:37 ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pktonyfiyreynxmj] has joined #scheme 09:19:45 -!- bambam [~bambam@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 09:19:49 bambam [~bambam@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 09:25:35 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:46 youlysse` [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 09:27:43 *rszeno* ok, don't ask, :) 09:39:39 -!- pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:16 lucasaiu [~user@fsf/member/lucasaiu] has joined #scheme 09:46:45 bambam: what's your q? 09:54:26 bambam, do you have one ore more questions or you don't know what to ask? 10:03:56 dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 10:04:44 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:16:52 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:26:31 -!- lucasaiu [~user@fsf/member/lucasaiu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:34:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:17 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@5-15-173-32.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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I am following sicp and it uses lisp. How can I install and run scheme on mac? 15:31:58 Hi 15:32:19 There are many different Scheme implementations, some friendlier than others. 15:33:07 My favorite implementation is GNU Guile: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile 15:33:21 But if you're a complete beginner, you might prefer Racket: 15:33:26 http://racket-lang.org/download/ 15:33:26 lucasaiu: I just want to follow the course, so maybe the friendlier the better 15:34:10 SICP talks about programming and abstract concepts; it isn't concerned with editing files or using an interactive system 15:34:32 introom: I recomment Racket. It's easy to install, and easy to use. 15:34:43 In any case, the subset of the language covered by SICP is common to all implementations 15:34:47 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:34:49 thanks, I will give Racket a try 15:34:50 It also has sicp support, let me find you the link. 15:35:02 stamourv: what's sicp support? 15:35:08 www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ 15:35:13 stamourv: Oh, yes. I had forgotten about that. Good. 15:35:22 The various libraries you need, like the image language from chapter 2, etc. 15:36:39 And I suppose "SICP support" also disable complex language features which may confuse beginners 15:36:43 wow, you guys all studied sicp? 15:36:45 -disables 15:36:51 It'a wonderful book :-) 15:36:57 I also recommend the video course 15:37:10 actually I am watching the video course on mit 15:37:30 Love it :-) 15:38:10 lucasaiu: Re disabling features: Maybe, I'm not sure. The HTDP languages do, though, which is great. 15:38:40 introom: I've read it. I prefer HTDP as an intro. 15:39:05 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 15:39:12 HTDP's problems are more interesting, and it has better explanations, IMO. 15:39:49 stamourv: what's the diffculty ? actually i've programmed for sometime 15:40:10 stamourv: I admit not having read HTDP 15:40:13 introom: The difficulty of what? 15:40:38 stamourv: HTDP? is this also a famous book? 15:40:46 lucasaiu: If you do, I recommend the second edition: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/index.html 15:41:07 introom: How to Design Programs. Yep, a famous book as well, used in many universities and high schools. 15:41:26 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 15:42:02 It was designed specifically to have the things that made SICP great, while modernizing it, and making it more accessible to people without strong math backgrounds. 15:42:13 introom: well, SICP covers *languages* in a very deep way for being an introduction: functional programming, interpretation, compilation, garbage collection, nondeterminism. Many programmers don't know these things. And they should. 15:42:47 lucasaiu: Meh, it's PL material is pretty shallow IMO. PLAI goes into a *lot* mre depth. 15:43:09 Shallow, and pretty dated, too. 15:43:14 lucasaiu: yep. I already know something about the materials you just mentioned. maybe sicp is more suitable 15:43:38 IME, HTDP + PLAI covers the same topics as SICP, but in a lot more depth, and in a much more accessible way. 15:43:55 introom: I was talking about SICP. I've not read HTDP. 15:44:12 PLAI: http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/ 15:44:41 Well, it's thought for the first course of the first year. It's not shallow. 15:45:18 Trust me, I've seen shallow courses :-) 15:45:44 As a course, it's not shallow, I agree. Its PL content is pretty shallow, though, which is what I was sayig. 15:46:20 But I'm not convinced that PL concepts (interpreters, etc.) belong in an intro to *programming* course. 15:46:27 That's what a PL course is for. 15:46:39 stamourv: well, ok. 15:46:43 And this is coming from a guy who does PLs for a living. ;) 15:46:54 I've studied at the university of Pisa, italy 15:46:57 Cool. 15:47:11 Pisa's a nice place. 15:47:12 Back in the day the very first course *did* cover programming languages and interpretation 15:47:39 It was based on ML rather than on Lisp and it was less deep (and less wide as well) 15:47:56 However, I think something like that makes very nice first introduction to Computer Science 15:48:02 -a 15:48:13 First of all it's fascinating, and motivating 15:48:50 I dunno. Programming on its own is a really big topic, so having a full course on it is a good think, IMO. 15:48:56 Same for programming languages. 15:49:28 And then, working with languages lets you intuitively grasp many ideas; you can look into the depth, even without understanding everything yet. 15:50:21 Functional programming can be taught without requiring any previous knowledge 15:51:10 A rationale they presented in Pisa was that even the students who could already program before starting university, usually didn't know functional programming. So all students were at the same level. 15:51:21 I agree 100%. 15:51:28 Which curbed the already blooming intellectual arrogance of people like myself :-) 15:51:59 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:53:50 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:56:04 mit stops teaching sicp? 15:56:25 introom: Several years ago, yes. 15:56:51 stamourv: then, what does it teach? 15:57:01 They use python for the first course 15:57:03 At this point, apart from Berkeley, I don't remember anyone else teaching SICP. 15:57:11 As you may guess, I don't agree :-) 15:57:42 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57:43 stamourv: Univ. Minnesota does. 15:57:48 lucasaiu: Not trying to defend their choice here, but the point is not that they swicthed from Scheme to Python, but rather that they completely restructured their intro curriculum. 15:58:20 And Scheme didn't make much sense given their new goals (bridging EE and CS, etc.). 15:58:32 but, i think sicp is not about the scheme itself, it should be about PL itself. why do they switch to python... 15:58:47 introom: If SICP seems to overwhellming, "Simply Scheme" was written to be more-or-less a preface to it. 15:59:09 Well, if you want to do interpretation, for example, Scheme is just plainly a better language. 15:59:12 introom: Right, they decided to focus on other things than PL for the first course, which is fair. 15:59:37 In my opinion they essentially went for the more popular option. 15:59:43 youlysse: I wouldn't recommend Simply Scheme. It teaches some pretty questionable things. 15:59:55 stamourv: then they teach things like compilation with a separated course..? 16:00:04 stamourv: Example(s)? 16:00:07 Starting with dynamic scope, for instance, can't possibly make anything easier, since you have unlearn it afterwards. 16:00:16 instance: Yes. 16:00:25 Oops, taht was for introom 16:00:42 Again, compilers is a big enough topic that it really should be its own course. 16:01:24 I also don't buy the argument of "people nowadays have to work on very big programs, so they have to get used to real systems which are too big to completely understand" 16:01:44 Teaching clean design, from scratch, has value. 16:02:00 stamourv: I just heard people saying sicp is great. (but I haven't read it yet). Meanwhile, I have gone through courses like compilation. So by reading SICP, the main benefit should be gaining a more unified understanding of PL? 16:02:33 The reasoning for MIT switching away from SICP was, as far as I understand, to make the course more applicable to EE types, since they have to take it as well. And to expose the CS types to a bit more EE stuff. Or something like that. 16:02:40 introom: If you already know how to program and want to learn more about PL, then PLAI is a better choice, IMO. 16:03:02 (add1 levi) 16:03:07 That's what I heard too. 16:03:21 introom: I'd agree. PLs in a wide sense, however. For example, the role of assignment. Models for reasoning about programs. Some semantics. 16:03:46 levi: But, but .... they're probably preventing someone writing a modern lisp-centric architecture! :-I 16:03:54 PLAI is definitely a good book to read, even if you've done compilers. 16:04:18 youlysse`: There are plenty of other things preventing that. 16:04:40 levi: Namely Gumption (and sanity). 16:05:10 And modern machinery at one's disposale. 16:05:16 stamourv: so in your opinion, HTDP + PLAI covers all the material inside SICP and is more in depth? 16:06:25 introom: Yes. 16:06:38 So yeah, if a modern LispM OS arises, it's likely going to be based off an arch that is already established (like x86_64) or be emulated on-top of some super-obsecure arch. :-Y 16:06:39 If you already know how to program, HTDP should go quickly. 16:06:48 introom: Are you familiar with functional programming? 16:07:05 youlysse`: Well, you would prototype such a thing in an FPGA these days, and those are certainly easily available. It's just that writing a "modern lisp-centric architecture" would be more of an insane hobby than something of practical value. 16:07:10 If so, you may want to just skim HTDP quickly, or even jump straight to PLAI. 16:07:23 stamourv: no. 16:07:45 introom: Ok, then you should probably take the time to go throught HTDP. 16:08:08 It starts off pretty basic, but it teaches you a way of thinking about programming that you may not be familiar with. 16:08:22 Or you could go through SICP. It's really a fun book. 16:08:23 noam [~noam@213.57.201.130] has joined #scheme 16:10:13 levi: Well if someone is writing a LispM arch and I assume associative OS, then I would too assume it'd be a result of some "insane hobby". Though, one might be apt to start a non-profit of sorts and get various bits funded by the community, assuming too it was the one actually "sucessful" attempt at this. :-P 16:10:34 IMHO, HTDP and PLAI cover a lot of good information, but they're not quite as fun as SICP. 16:12:01 levi: It's not like I'm assuming this would ever become a profitable endeavor, but I do think it's possible some nutter will come along and do-so for purely their own pleasure. :-P 16:12:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 16:12:56 levi: Re fun: Really depends on what you find fun. :) 16:12:58 levi:fun?? 16:13:00 youlysse`: I think if someone was going to do it, it would have been done by now. 16:13:11 I personally prefer HTDP's animations and games to SICP's math and physics. 16:15:03 Not so much the exercises, but the writing style and approach. It's a subjective thing, definitely. 16:15:15 Agreed. 16:16:40 SICPs got a wizard on the cover, too. 16:17:29 -!- yazdmich [~yazdmich@om.n0.ms] has quit [Changing host] 16:17:29 yazdmich [~yazdmich@unaffiliated/yazdmich] has joined #scheme 16:19:26 levi: True nutters are hard to come-by. There have been more-or-less ways to try to negate this lack of true OS, with many "significant" peaces of software too being written in it and following a certain control scheme one might expect (examples; Emacs and Stumpwm), so I'm sure for the majority of us that are even semi-practical, it is a deterrent. That being said, I think it's possible it'll be someone from my own generation, (the 16:19:28 current 20-somethings) because we keep hearing ye'old legends of greatness, have first-hand experience to said examples of software that pretty-much tries to emulate them, and too don't have first-hand experience with any of the downfalls of such a system. Though true, maybe it's a dream that well never be fully a reality again. That being said, I know of like 90 Unix-like clones, you'd think there would be atleast one system written 16:19:28 some dialect and too written in a way that emulated the actions of the CADR and/or Genera systems. :-P 16:21:52 youlysse`: It's not like those before you didn't hear those legends of greatness. Yet, here we are. No Lisp machines. Perhaps there's a reason for this. 16:22:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 16:24:28 levi: A *massive* amount of work needs to be done to be even semi-practical? The hackers aren't young/stupid enough to try and if they are to continue till they have at least a solid base in-which others can build upon? I mean I've seen many LispM projects, but not many "complete" to a degree that makes it an attractive base in-which to build up from. 16:24:54 jrapdx [~jra@74-95-41-205-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:35 Wuddaya mean, no Lisp machines? This box I'm talking to you from is a fine Lisp machine: it has 45 Schemes and a dozen Common Lisps on it. 16:26:19 jcowan: I'm assuming it's based on a UNIX-like system? 16:26:38 Well, Linux running on Windows. 16:26:41 So yes. 16:27:26 Well, apparently he means custom hardware and Lisp-based OS. 16:27:56 Yes, modern computers can run Lisp and the various branches of that family tree, but it's really not the same as running a whole system written in it, 16:28:10 Sure. But what counts as "hardware" and what as "the OS"? My machine runs Linux none the less that Linux is not really in control of the hardware, that's my point. 16:28:20 levi: Well, I can even wave the hardware to a degree. 16:28:42 It's never *really* turtles all the way down: somewhere there is a core you can't change. 16:29:12 "Cash registers don't compute, they just grind their gears. But then they don't really grind their gears, either; they just obey the laws of physics." 16:29:24 -!- levi [~user@c-24-10-225-212.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:54 jcowan: Well on a true Lisp Machine, the thing you "can't" change is the actual hardware. :-I 16:30:16 levi [~user@c-24-10-225-212.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:25 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:30:32 Or the laws of physics, either. But I don't see that that is any kind of argument in principle, it sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy to me. 16:31:37 jcowan: Well, I mean obviously there's no-such things as turtles-all-the-way-down, but where you draw that line can and does seem to allow more flexibility in said system type. 16:31:43 -!- lucasaiu [~user@fsf/member/lucasaiu] has left #scheme 16:34:30 germ13 [~germ13@cpe-108-185-98-230.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:16 Flexibility that, in practice, almost no one would ever exercise. 16:37:21 levi: LispMs have always seemed like an idealist's endeavor, so I don't see the problem. Too, it's not like I can *effectively* even write drivers for Linux, on that level. 16:37:39 -!- introom [~Eddie@th130213.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Quit: introom] 16:38:11 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:16 Idealists will gravitate to something more important, usually. Witness RMS's transformation from a hacker to a free software evangelist. 16:39:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:10 I can write a couple of dialects of Lisp and device drivers for several different operating systems and system architectures. I would really like Lisp macros for device driver and low-level work, but other fundamental aspects of Lisp get in the way at that level. 16:40:27 levi: Well I think RMS is still a "hacker", just a much-more practical one. :-P 16:40:51 I disagree pretty vehemently, but whatever. 16:40:53 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-108-39-216-117.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:41:34 levi: Seeing as he rarely writes code now-a-days. I guess you could argue that route. :-P 16:43:22 -!- dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:54 quizme [~quizme@121.97.56.138] has joined #scheme 16:46:07 hi 16:46:17 Hi. 16:46:32 my boss asked me to come up with a plugin architecture for a questionnaire app. 16:46:38 dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 16:46:39 -!- dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:45 we're using redis as a back-end 16:47:15 dsp [~dsp@171-196.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 16:47:36 the goal is to have people come up with new question types 16:47:47 anybody have any genius ideas along these lines ? 16:47:58 or maybe just slightly above average ideas? 16:48:09 genius is preferred though 16:48:38 right now i just support multiple-choice 16:48:43 and free text 16:48:48 youlysse`: The last real practical attempt at defining a lisp-like OS-level language that I'm aware of was BitC, and it's now officially dead due to fundamental design flaws. There's no point to doing it if you can't provide some real benefit beyond C, and it's really hard to scope such a project such that you provide enough benefit without trying to provide so much that your design problem becomes intractable and you end up with 16:48:48 fundamental problems. 16:48:52 and it's all hard-coded 16:50:06 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 16:50:34 quizme: I'm busy applying my genius, such as it is, to my own problems. Sorry! 16:52:37 how about coming up with a bunch of C++ macros that turn lisp into valid c++ ? 16:52:49 is that even possible? 16:53:05 Sounds like a terrible idea. 16:53:17 thankq 16:53:48 better yet 16:53:50 Way beyond the scope of anything you ought to be doing with CPP. 16:54:03 make a genetic programming program come up with the macros for you 16:54:42 and tune the genetic programming program with a neural network of course 16:55:22 An even more terrible idea. You should probably stop this line of thought, as it's taking you to a very bad place. 16:55:32 hell? 16:56:07 A place of torment and anguish, certainly. 16:56:21 is this how to get there? via #scheme? 16:58:40 this is what happens when i don't take my medication 16:59:43 sorry, i'm turning this channel into a therapy session 17:00:10 If you want to transform Lisp into something else, you should probably use Lisp macros. Or, you know, write a compiler. 17:01:06 Translating Lisp to C++ is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and has been done many times before. 17:01:34 i do it every morning before breakfast 17:08:17 i have an idea 17:08:28 for my question type architecture 17:15:58 civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 17:20:34 pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-109-2.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:20:39 -!- pjb is now known as Guest38526 17:20:45 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:21:27 -!- Guest38526 is now known as pjb` 17:22:41 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 17:23:21 jao [~jao@173.Red-79-144-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:25 -!- jao [~jao@173.Red-79-144-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:23:25 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:29:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:31:11 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E171DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:34:13 -!- Reisen is now known as Reiser 17:36:56 labyrinth [~user@110.139.241.72] has joined #scheme 17:41:48 "lisppaste is available in 0 channels on ... Freenode." 17:42:07 I'd like to ask a question about some code, where should I paste? 17:42:08 adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has joined #scheme 17:42:40 labyrinth: You can still paste to it and post the link... :-I 17:44:25 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:44:43 youlysse`: sorry, been about 10 years since I asked a coding question w/ pasting on IRC. 17:47:11 I'm working through SICP, and I'm doing some extra study on recursive vs. iterative processes. 17:47:48 labyrinth: It's fine. It's probably referring to there are no bots that directly link to it officially, or something. 17:48:26 I'm trying out a procedure for adding two postive integers that executes as an iterative process. 17:48:51 btw here's the code: http://paste.lisp.org/+2XU3 17:49:33 What I'm curious about is that it hangs for 10 seconds even doing something like (add-iter 10000000 8) 17:50:05 It's better than the recursive process I wrote that exceeds max recur depth, but still obviously an inefficient algorithm 17:50:38 What is a better algorithm implemented in scheme for adding two ints? 17:54:47 labyrinth: you may have a slow implementation (perhaps it doesn't compile automatically the code), or a slow computer, since it seems to be able to do only 1e6 addition+function call per second. 17:55:07 labyrinth: otherwise it's perfectly normal for this function to be as slow, since it's O(x). 17:55:12 in time. 17:55:34 a function call, an addition and a subtraction. 17:55:41 plus a test. 17:56:53 pjb: It's MIT/GNU running in emacs on a Mac Mini (64 bit, dual core I think) 17:58:33 Try (compiled-procedure? add-iter) 17:59:20 MIT Scheme doesn't compile code in the REPL automatically. 17:59:40 scp: Yeah, got #f on compiled. 17:59:44 danking [~danking@gorf.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:00:19 So if I compiled it, would I get the same speed as (+ 10000000 8)? 18:00:34 No. But it would be a lot faster than the interpreter. 18:01:43 riastradh: Is '+' using a different algorithm, or is it using streamlined C/Assembly or something? 18:02:28 It uses the CPU's ALU to add 32-bit or 64-bit quantities at a time. 18:02:58 labyrinth: no, compiled it would still be O(x), but faster. 18:02:59 Well, really, 26-bit or 58-bit quantities for fixnums, and 31-bit or 63-bit for bignums, but anyway. 18:04:08 A Mac Mini should be able to do 3 giga operations per second, so doing 40 millions of them should take less than one second, when compiled. 18:05:11 Since I'm not writing critical system code, I'm not worried about my code being as fast as possible 18:05:33 Well, if you were, you'd use + instead of add-iter of course :-) 18:05:41 I just wanted to know if I was missing some major algorithm concept that would lead to problems down the road 18:07:08 I know that Scheme hides most of the lower-level complexity, but is there a way to directly access the ALU or play with unsigned etc. types? 18:07:51 Also, in the MIT REPL, is there a quick way to compile a function? 18:08:29 And is there an easy way in the REPL to time two functions to compare how long it takes for them to complete? 18:08:47 (show-time (lambda () (f x y z))) 18:09:19 You can do (define f (compile-procedure f)), but you'll probably want to put it in a file and compile that. 18:09:37 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:52 -!- germ13 [~germ13@cpe-108-185-98-230.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:23 riastradh: ok, show-time works nicely, so thanks for that 18:16:00 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 18:16:33 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:18:06 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:23:17 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC6159F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:24:17 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 18:24:27 trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.137] has joined #scheme 18:27:34 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:46 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:48 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E171DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:35 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E171DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:46:43 -!- labyrinth [~user@110.139.241.72] has quit [Quit: thanks for help.] 18:54:08 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:09 -!- civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:23 -!- adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:57 adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has joined #scheme 19:00:32 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:10:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:10:08 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:10:34 -!- adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:15:17 "Directly access the ALU" depends on what kind of CPU you have and what you mean by "directly access". You could consider the CPU microcode as an abstraction layer, in which case you can't directly access it at all. 19:16:01 you could also consider the instruction set, microcode or not, an abstraction above access to the ALU 19:16:37 if you could have enough instructions to access each and every pin of the alu in every configuration though, maybe you could do something interesting 19:16:39 ;) 19:19:05 adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has joined #scheme 19:24:41 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:53 -!- ohama [ohama@cicolina.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:03 civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:20 microcode: now you sound like you are bragging 19:31:57 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 19:32:25 OTOH, maybe you have a reason to do so. People constantly talk about you here! 19:36:06 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xgpkrvgkwbxddlta] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:50:29 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:25 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:01 -!- agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:29 -!- metasyntax [~tvenable@proxy5.med-web.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13:45 trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.34] has joined #scheme 20:20:36 anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 20:22:43 -!- kib0 [~kib0@200.92.100.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:27 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:50 -!- Nafai [~nafai@174-126-77-168.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:30:22 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:48 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:35:37 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC6159F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:53 -!- adiii [~adityavit@aditya.poly.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:50:26 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:53:29 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 20:57:50 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.34] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:15 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:12 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 21:09:48 -!- anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has left #scheme 21:11:28 pumpkin360 [530480c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.4.128.199] has joined #scheme 21:16:01 Hi. I am wondering how do the methods build in objects behave (well, actually by object I mean a procedure returning a dispatch procedure - only type of objects I know in scheme sofar). More precisely if they are connected to the scope of the procedure in which they are created. Could anyone confirm it? 21:20:00 agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:16 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:25:09 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #scheme 21:25:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 21:25:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 21:33:21 -!- civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:34:41 civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:25 pierpa [~user@95.236.59.155] has joined #scheme 21:37:05 LucasKA [~lucas@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 21:37:33 atg29 [~atg29@132.181.14.216] has joined #scheme 21:38:16 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:39 Hi. I am wondering how do the methods build in objects behave (well, actually by object I mean a procedure returning a dispatch procedure - only type of objects I know in scheme sofar). More precisely if they are connected to the scope of the procedure in which they are created. Could anyone confirm it? 21:42:53 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:43:34 anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 21:43:58 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.106.202] has joined #scheme 21:44:21 pumpkin360: which object system do you use? 21:45:24 -!- quizme [~quizme@121.97.56.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:47:06 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:47:22 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93C6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:47:49 taylanub [tub@p4FD91F76.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:48:00 quizme [~quizme@121.97.56.138] has joined #scheme 21:49:44 -!- anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 21:49:52 anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 21:51:19 -!- anothervenue [~lucasallm@76.91.162.213] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:12 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:01:03 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:31 teiresia1 [~teiresias@67-5-172-156.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:21 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:32 -!- teiresia1 is now known as teiresias 22:03:41 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@67-5-172-156.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:03:41 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #scheme 22:05:14 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:06:55 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 22:07:38 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:53 karswell [~user@46.208.83.73] has joined #scheme 22:41:05 -!- atg29 [~atg29@132.181.14.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:41 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 22:52:44 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 22:55:37 -!- civodul [~user@40.129.10.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:56:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:05:15 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:05 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:20 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:02 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:43 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 23:11:48 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:12:24 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:13 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@pD9E171DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:22 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 23:28:03 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 23:31:09 xissburg [~xissburg@177.18.218.121] has joined #scheme 23:43:41 tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:12 ASau` [~user@p5797EE12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:50:52 tenkyuu [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:51:29 -!- tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:34 -!- ASau [~user@p5797EE5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]