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[4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has joined #scheme 05:35:00 '(1 2) evaluates to a literal, what does (list 1 2) evaluate to? 05:36:18 A list. 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[~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 12:33:50 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 12:34:05 agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 12:36:06 -!- ChouLin [~user@120.196.98.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:43:48 impaktor [~user@b2.thep.lu.se] has joined #scheme 12:44:24 I'm having trouble getting my do-function running. Is there something syntactically wrong with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136959 12:45:24 doesn't your implementation tell you something like: *** ERROR:do: Illegal form: -- ((y y0 (inc y (* h (f t y))))) 12:45:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:45:32 if not, then you better change of implementation. 12:45:51 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:12 compare that line with the previous one. 12:46:31 (hint: your editor indents them correctly). 12:48:53 Hm, so I have a miss-placed parenthesis? I think my code is identical in indentation (and parenthesis) to the example on the r5rs site: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_%_sec_4.2.4 12:48:54 http://tinyurl.com/2dzneh4 12:49:18 (I use chicken scheme, it does complain on the entire do-loop) 12:51:46 Is it not (do ((variable assignement)) (condition) code) ? 12:53:42 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 12:54:45 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #scheme 12:57:37 it is. 12:57:44 but it is also: (do ((variable assignement) (variable assignement) (variable assignement)) (condition) code) 12:57:55 not (do ((variable assignement) ((variable assignement)) (((variable assignement)) ) (condition) code) 12:58:14 *impaktor* checks and thinks. 12:58:17 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 12:59:46 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:00:00 impaktor: ie. the way the syntax is give in sicp may be unseating. Try this: (do ( ) ( []) ) 13:00:39 with variable-iteration-specification ::= ( ) 13:01:08 pjb: I see it now. 13:01:26 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:30 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 13:02:42 pjb: compiles now. Many thanks. 13:04:32 -!- hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:05 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:14:23 deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:15:40 Hi. Is it possible to implement "apply" in Scheme in terms of "eval" or other constructs? 13:16:01 (without writing a complete metacircular interpreter, that is) 13:16:43 (define (apply procedure arguments) ((eval `(LAMBDA (PROCEDURE ARGUMENTS) (PROCEDURE ,@(map (lambda (i) `(LIST-REF ARGUMENTS ,i)) (iota (length arguments))))) (scheme-report-environment 5)) procedure arguments)) 13:17:16 rudybot: (begin (define (my-apply procedure arguments) ((eval `(LAMBDA (PROCEDURE ARGUMENTS) (PROCEDURE ,@(map (lambda (i) `(LIST-REF ARGUMENTS ,i)) (iota (length arguments))))) (scheme-report-environment 5)) procedure arguments)) (apply vector '(1 2 3))) 13:17:17 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 13:17:17 Riastradh: ; Value: '#(1 2 3) 13:17:53 *deveux* reading the definition slowly (thanks) 13:20:14 jao [~jao@16.Red-88-17-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:20:17 -!- jao [~jao@16.Red-88-17-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:20:17 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 13:21:58 grimmthorn [~grim@unaffiliated/grimmthorn] has joined #scheme 13:24:35 deveux: well, first eval is implemented in terms of apply. 13:24:56 so you would have first to define eval without using apply. But it will probably make eval more than one page 13:25:07 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 13:25:41 I was trying to do what Riastradh wrote, define apply in terms of eval instead (taking advantage of the underlying implicit apply used by eval). 13:26:07 But I was having a hard time getting it to work with things like: (apply list '(1 (2 3))) 13:27:04 Now, I'm trying to understand why this is needed `(list-ref arguments ,i) in the definition. 13:27:04 lol 13:27:57 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 13:29:07 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 13:31:17 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:20 -!- grimmthorn [~grim@unaffiliated/grimmthorn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:25 deveux: once you've evaluated the arguments, you need to quote them in the sexp you build to pass to eval. 13:32:16 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 13:35:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-219.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:35:13 -!- groovy2shoes [~guv@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: groovy2shoes] 13:35:19 deveux: my solution: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136960 13:36:34 Riastradh, pjb: thank you, I think I understand why my approach didn't work. 13:36:45 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256 13:37:15 pjb's code may lead to undefined behaviour because it puts arbitrary data in quotations. 13:38:14 Can't we do that? 13:38:55 No. 13:39:17 So we need to go thru variables. 13:39:48 Would this be correct? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136961 13:41:29 That (and pjb's code) also puts an arbitrary procedure into the expression, which is also not kosher. 13:42:00 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 13:42:35 Valid input to EVAL is formed of lists, symbols, &c., but not arbitrary objects. Procedures aren't a priori allowed. 13:44:09 with variables: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136960#1 13:44:25 Oh, so let's do the same with the procedure too. 13:45:44 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:56 Now you don't even have the quotation, pjb. Try to pass a list as one of the arguments. 13:47:00 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47:39 Right. But for the procedure, without a common environment and without quotation I don't think it's possible to avoid it. 13:48:16 Not possible? Did you see the code I pasted above? 13:48:57 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@94.230.152.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:58 Didn't see it, let me read it 13:51:07 Ah of course, using lambda to extend the environment. It would be better to use variable than list-ref however. 13:52:11 Yes, you could go to the trouble of generating a cascade of nested (let ((xi (car arguments)) (arguments (cdr arguments))) ...), but that would have had trouble fitting in a single IRC message. 13:52:22 :-) 13:52:37 Also, if you're worried about efficiency of the mechanism... 13:53:12 How much data-munging, including LIST-REF or similar, is your compiler going to do to process that EVAL in the first place? 13:53:51 of course. 13:54:17 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:54:18 one page of kernel vm ? 13:54:24 lol 13:58:04 There seems to be a lot of functions defined as "procedure+: vector-first" etc, on http://sicp.ai.mit.edu/Fall-2004/manuals/scheme-7.5.5/doc/scheme_9.html but these functions doesn't seem to be implemented in chicken scheme, which to my knowledge should cover most of R5RS. Feels like there's something I should know here... 13:59:16 That's the documentation for (a very old version of) the implementation of Scheme called MIT Scheme. 13:59:39 If you want to read the R5RS, it's at . 13:59:41 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.13.78] has joined #scheme 13:59:46 So those functions are dead? 14:00:05 I see. 14:00:19 They're not dead, but you're reading the manual for the wrong software. 14:01:15 k 14:02:48 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.107.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:08:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:36 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:16:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 14:20:17 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.107.54] has joined #scheme 14:29:07 serhart [~serhart@MainCampusMid-v882-04010.1Xwireless.unc.edu] has joined #scheme 14:30:26 grimmthorn [~grimmthor@unaffiliated/grimmthorn] has joined #scheme 14:33:04 -!- grimmthorn [~grimmthor@unaffiliated/grimmthorn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:19 grimmulfr [~grimmulfr@unaffiliated/grimmulfr] has joined #scheme 14:44:22 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:44:48 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:23 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:00 klrr [~klrr@88.129.149.124] has joined #scheme 14:47:05 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:47:09 what's continuation passing style "CPS"? 14:48:11 You can't ever return from a procedure. You can only ever call other procedures. Now build a program under this constraint. 14:48:12 every function takes another function (a continuation), that it tailcalls with the result 14:48:53 for short is the connection between the past and the future of a computation 14:49:22 hmm, is it necessary for a lisp to be lisp or is it scheme specific? 14:49:58 is necessary for any programming language not only lisp or scheme 14:50:01 I can't parse that sentence, klrr. Can you rephrase, and substitute the referent for the pronoun `it'? 14:51:00 basically, i dont know what continuation is, i read a tutorial which said i should continue my implementation by implementing continuation and macros but i dont know what they are and the only info i find is scenific papers :x 14:51:58 How does the machine know what to do next when a procedure returns, klrr? 14:52:40 when you compute something the context is relevant, so you need to preserve that context, the context is the continuation, a variable or whatever it is 14:53:02 Let's say you want to compute the logarithm of one plus something: (log (+ 1 x)). When the + procedure is all done doing its work, something else needs to happen. 14:53:38 The machine had to remember that what it was doing, when it took an excursion to add one to x, was computing the logarithm of one plus something. 14:53:56 so for example, my current implementation doesnt work with recursive procedures(expcept for one functuin suprisingly) continuation allows me to save the procedures name so it can be evaluated again if it's called within the body? 14:54:29 In its memory it stuck a little note on its mental refrigerator reminding itself, `Hey! This morning, after you've fed the cats and added one to x, don't forget to compute the logarithm of the sum.' 14:54:56 That note -- and any notes it was stuck on top of, for what to do after the computing the logarithm -- is a continuation. 14:56:01 If you don't have a notion of `returning' in your language, or if you force yourself to throw it out, you can simulate it by making the notes an explicit part of your program, by passing procedures around that do what needs to be done next. 14:56:13 or suppose you are doing something abstract, like waiting for the user to type something in on the keyboard. You go off and do something else, and then he types, and now you need to go back to what you were doing before 14:56:21 i actually dont really understand but if we take a lambda for example, then it evaluates it and then put it in the continuation so if the following datatype is the arg it needs it applies it and evaluates? 14:56:39 of course, real world users don't use the keyboard 14:57:14 In this case, suppose k is a procedure that does everything you want done with the logarithm. You might rewrite the fragment above as: (+ 1 x (lambda (sum) (log sum (lambda (logarithm) (k logarithm))))). Here every (non-continuation) procedure, such as + and LOG, is modified to take an extra argument for its continuation so it knows what to do next. 14:57:29 You might define your own procedure LOG1P in continuation-passing style to do this: 14:57:51 (define (log1p x k) (+ 1 x (lambda (sum) (log sum (lambda (logarithm) (k logarithm)))))) 14:58:21 Of course, the standard + and LOG procedures aren't written in CPS, but we're pretending they are. You could also just give the CPS versions different names and cheat at implementing them: 14:58:30 (define (cps+ a b k) (k (+ a b))) 14:58:40 (define (cps-log z k) (k (log z))) 14:59:17 Then: (define (cps-log1p x k) (cps+ x 1 (lambda (sum) (cps-log sum (lambda (logarithm) (k logarithm)))))) 15:00:13 daniel____ [be6f0349@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.111.3.73] has joined #scheme 15:00:23 -!- daniel____ [be6f0349@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.111.3.73] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:01 battousai [be6f0349@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.111.3.73] has joined #scheme 15:01:17 In order to bring it back to normal Scheme, or `direct-style' (DS) Scheme, we can make a continuation that actually does return: (lambda (x) x). 15:01:22 Hello, one question, is it possible to use gotoxy on scheme? 15:01:27 Thus: 15:01:40 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.13.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:55 battousai: what is gotoxy? 15:02:16 rudybot: eval (begin (define (cps+ a b k) (k (+ a b))) (define (cps-log z k) (k (log z))) (define (cps-log1p x k) (cps+ x 1 (lambda (sum) (cps-log sum (lambda (logarithm) (k logarithm)))))) (list (log (+ 1 .1)) (cps-log1p .1 (lambda (result) result)))) 15:02:16 Riastradh: ; Value: '(0.09531017980432493 0.09531017980432493) 15:03:07 (Of course, this is the wrong way to define LOG1P, but that's a subject for the numerical analysis class down the hall.) 15:03:48 battousai: your scheme may have a console library that supports this sort of thing, but I doubt most come with a terminal graphics library 15:04:17 ijp: thanks 15:06:00 klrr, http://matt.might.net/articles/by-example-continuation-passing-style/ 15:06:46 rszeno: thanks! :) 15:06:57 :) 15:08:00 rudybot: and thus, an example of explanation-passing style 15:08:01 ijp: It then used assq to do an alist lookup (using eq? for equality, which is fine because you're matching on symbols), thus matching '+ with the value of +. 15:09:12 what's a procedure call? 15:09:27 *ijp* facepalms 15:09:32 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:51 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:09:52 -!- battousai [be6f0349@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.111.3.73] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:10:02 klrr: (procedure argument0 argument1 ...) 15:10:35 e.g. (cons 1 2) calls the procedure 'cons' with two arguments: 1 and 2 15:11:04 okey 15:12:45 -!- civodul [~user@193.50.110.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:54 klrr, what languages did you used? 15:13:38 im using haskell 15:14:08 basically i wanna write a very simple lisp while still having macros and such so it's more real, but im currently stuck since i dont understand anything :x 15:14:34 Like ? 15:14:42 klrr: you should really take some time to use an language before implementing it 15:14:44 is the extra k given to a cpsified call/cc the same one that a non cpsified call/cc gives to it's argument? 15:14:44 (No macros there. Left as an exercise for the reader.) 15:17:10 i want a lisp that's dynamic, partially-applied, curried and maybe lazy if i can, and it should have basic macros(if there is such a thing) 15:17:18 Riastradh: will look through 15:18:24 *poof* 15:18:53 this is a good book about this subject, http://www.amazon.com/Compiling-Continuations-Andrew-W-Appel/dp/052103311X/ref=la_B000AP5X0W_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367335080&sr=1-1 15:18:54 http://tinyurl.com/bryhxu9 15:19:49 pyro-: yes, the continuation to call/cc is what you pass to the argument function 15:19:49 if i'm not wrong is out of print and you probably could find it for free but i'm not sure 15:20:03 rszeno: amazon prints on demand 15:20:13 thank you ijp ! 15:20:15 judging by a footnote in my copy 15:20:22 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 15:20:32 pyro-: the clue is in the name "call-with-current-continuation" 15:20:33 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:20:41 thank you, ijp, :) 15:22:38 pyro-: (define (call/cc/cps f k) (f (lambda (x _) (k x)) k)) 15:23:36 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:36 tupi [~user@139.82.89.157] has joined #scheme 15:24:54 jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:04 the fact that the continuation you pass to f ignores its argument shows you why normal continuations aren't composable 15:25:11 the _ corrosponds to the aborted part? 15:25:23 yes 15:25:51 are delimited continuations as easy in cps? 15:26:36 depends on the kind of delimited continuation, there is a whole menagerie of them 15:26:58 thank you ijp ! 15:27:09 i only know of the ones i found in lisp in small pieces 15:27:24 the way I remember shift/reset is that it requires a continuation, and a "metacontinuation" 15:27:51 :-( 15:29:32 -!- grimmulfr [~grimmulfr@unaffiliated/grimmulfr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:41 -!- hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:04 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:32:44 the extra k in cps is always undelimited? is a version of cps with delimited continuations a consistent idea? 15:33:17 sure 15:34:03 *pyro-* goes away to read and learn and think 15:34:07 thank you ijp ! 15:34:43 -!- hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:11 hopfrog [~quassel@pool-96-236-222-96.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:37 klrr, how you can get rid of global variables in a program with lexical scope? 15:40:42 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 15:43:58 rszeno: maybe pass the information around as function arguments 15:44:31 :) yes, exactly this was the idea, :) 15:45:43 peoples are usualy confuse about concepts and sometime something practical make them understand the concept 15:46:26 jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:49:12 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:11 rszeno: i donno what lexical scope really is :x 15:53:27 oops, :) 15:54:02 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:54:11 you said you want a lisp with dynamic scope right? 15:54:15 when i think about it, im think im too retarded for this, i should start playing soccer or something... 15:54:33 don't think this way 15:54:55 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:07 im thinking that im running out of time ive tried programming for almost 3 years now and i cant do anything ........ 15:56:28 if you take things piece by piece you can understand anything 15:56:56 is not easy, not simple but it work 15:57:10 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 15:57:30 languages are confusing programming even more so, and haskell's fucking type system sucks for beginners 15:58:03 then don't use haskell, use something else 15:58:11 i wish i learned scheme first but it feels so waste of time learn it now when ive studied haskell for month 15:58:24 months 15:59:09 sometime is better to drop things and take something fresh, :) 15:59:21 done that two times 15:59:55 read this and tell me what you think, http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 16:00:07 first C... then python... then C... then Scheme... then C... then punched myself in the face and learned haskell, now i sit here and cant do a shit 16:00:21 sicp, tried i just get stuck and termology and math 16:00:27 -!- adiii [~adityavit@2601:9:3d00:4e:c9a5:b125:dbeb:65d6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:00:28 What do you want to do? 16:00:35 a lisp 16:00:57 sounds like "slow down!" "you do it `rooooooong!" 16:01:32 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:01:35 klrr, did you try to write a glossar of terms? 16:02:05 i always do shit wrong but wtf else should i write, there's not much application that's good to write in purely functional language, a lisp intepreter is the only thing i think of that has a input and a output and not too much side effects 16:02:10 what's glossar? 16:02:22 klrr: you could try HTDP 16:02:26 no 16:02:30 it's too basic 16:02:46 i know the basics, im in the step where you should start learn by doing 16:02:47 then that should be a point of encouragement for you 16:03:09 klrr: I'd relax the "purely-functional" requirement. 16:03:12 a glossar is a list with word/meaning pairs 16:03:15 It's very hard to do anything useful that way 16:03:21 I myself program in a "mostly-functional" style. 16:03:22 offby1: quitter 16:03:29 ijp: giving up is underrated. 16:03:32 ijp: also: stalker. 16:03:43 offby1: but i use haskell :x it's harder to do mostly functional than only functional i think 16:03:48 ijp: I cannot understand why you're not at the top of the M-x erc-rank-stalkers list. 16:03:49 offby1: says you, person who came late to the conversation 16:04:02 klrr: in haskell, I think you're right. But in scheme, it's easier. 16:04:06 offby1: interesting, you're not even on my list 16:04:35 ijp: I suspect you've gotten some sort of cover from MI5 or the SIS. 16:04:45 okey 16:04:56 offby1: these irc cloaking devices are pretty expensive 16:05:17 first i write a program in haskell, then learn scheme, then write that fucking lisp, then start learn or write something else, but what haskell program should i write? 16:05:28 klrr: Why are you learning functional programming in the first place? 16:05:31 beats me; I don't do haskell 16:06:18 klrr: how about writing an irc bot that does silly things. like offby1 did 16:06:31 rudybot: say something wacky 16:06:31 Euthy: cause i like functional languages, python and c is ugly in the sense of a beginners point of view, the core concept of writing functions and sticking them together is easier 16:06:32 ijp: he is wacky no doubt. 16:06:38 already written a irc bot 16:07:07 with a scheme inside it, but it's 90% stolen (the scheme part) from a tutorial 16:07:13 klrr: you can write functional code, or at least, mostly-functional code, in most languages; certainly in Python. 16:07:50 klrr: Do you have some kind of goal with programming? 16:07:51 yeah yeah, but i dont want/care about learning python or C, already learned some stuff and didnt like them 16:07:52 klrr, short question, what is your goal, what you want to achive? 16:07:59 i want to write a lisp 16:08:05 klrr: one of my toy projects is a program to compute and display anagrams. I've written that in lots of languages, some of them functional; https://github.com/offby1/anagrams 16:08:07 for what? 16:08:09 or rather, my own programming language 16:08:27 offby1: thanks will check 16:08:52 you need to learn a lot of math for this 16:08:54 rszeno: not for what, but rather so i have something i can put ideas that i find useful in programming and having a language highlighting them and see how it works 16:08:56 http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/ 16:09:08 rszeno: define "a lot of math" 16:09:28 klrr: ^^, I'm told there is a second edition 16:09:55 math is no problem, well the problem with math is that im in sweden and our school system realyl sucks, you need to go to gymnasiet to learn real math, and i wont go there until after summer 16:10:00 i like math though 16:11:25 my english is too poor to define a lot of math, :) 16:11:50 rszeno: 0.1 or 0.9? 16:12:00 is it really lots of math that is needed or rather that a lot of concepts are explained using math as examples which requires the math? 16:12:14 pjb? 16:13:24 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:25 you should use math to define math, not English :-) 16:13:36 words are used to explain concepts 16:14:38 pjb, then will be like writing a gui using lambda calculus, :) 16:17:03 not math concepts. You only understand it when you read the math in the text. 16:17:06 is important to know clear what you want to do. What concepts you need to understand come from this, from your problem 16:17:46 okey i just need to find a problem 16:18:02 "just" not really just there's not much problems that's good for a beginner 16:18:47 you are looking in the wrong place, :) 16:19:16 what you like to do? look there and try to solve a problem 16:19:35 i dont know what i like to do since ive only written one program 16:19:58 to become a 'advanced programmer' is not a goal 16:20:02 -!- ijp is now known as MiguelGH 16:20:10 -!- MiguelGH is now known as ijp 16:20:53 i don't talk about programs, i talk about what you like to do 16:21:54 you like to watch movies? you are unhappy with tools you use? change it, write a program to do what/how you like 16:22:04 i like to play games 16:22:12 write a game 16:22:37 and a game is the last thing ill write tried write a text-based multiplayer game and after ive made the server client stuff and started on the games things got messy 16:23:51 did you tryed to see what's wrong to fix it? 16:24:35 -!- Triclops256 is now known as Triclops256|away 16:25:00 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 16:25:03 the thing is that the design of a game is too complex for my head, i tried implement some kind of thing that i could retrive the game state and then send it to clients who requested it but it all got too messy and the it basically didnt work since the design was wrong 16:27:13 i guess not the head is the problem but trying to do much more then you can in a single stage 16:27:36 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:49 well i can try make a game and then implement multiplayer not other way around, i guess i would need some kind of Monad whatever that is and then some datatype that holds the game state and then i need a datatype for rooms which has monsters and items within that's also datatypes, then stick everything together and add some kind of text interface, probably a prompt'like interface 16:32:05 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32:49 why do you mix in description 'what to do' with 'how to do'? 16:33:28 sry im not very logical 16:33:40 try checking out some simple games 16:33:42 read their source 16:33:45 and try and understand it 16:34:11 yes even though it feels like cheating i know it's not but it feels like it 16:34:29 it's not cheating at all 16:34:34 i know 16:34:38 but it feels like cheating 16:34:39 you don't cheat, you learn, except if you copy and past 16:34:49 i always end up copy pasting 16:35:00 even if i understand since i cant come up with better code 16:35:12 it's ok as far as only understanding..... 16:35:18 is up to you, don't doit, read and write only 16:35:39 by copy pasting i mean using the same design, not literally copy paste the code 16:35:52 as wbooze said, understand why is done that way 16:36:05 that's not wrong 16:36:56 most of the time best things was already invented, :) 16:37:26 if not then is your chance to do it 16:37:56 jup, if you try todo that from the start you'll not get anywhere 16:37:59 it's stall you 16:38:08 it will* 16:38:37 it's ok to spend say 1 hour on a problem at most....not more.... 16:39:56 and to know at least half of what you need to do, the other half you could learn when you do it 16:40:35 jup 16:45:26 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:47:00 somebody said once that you understand something when you can explain it to somebody who have no idea about what you are talking 16:47:21 true 16:48:32 is a good way to understand what we understand, to use it to measure knowledge we have 16:49:43 brianloveswords [~brianlove@li124-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:50:12 lurk -> transcribe -> transfer 16:50:38 types sucks, values has types not variables 16:51:01 that's like, your opinion, man 16:51:41 opinion as an idiot, if i ever learn programming i will make a language that's good for idiots 16:51:56 ijp: and that is like, your opinion too, man! 16:53:04 klrr, you start with the wrong language for you 16:53:31 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 16:53:45 there's a guy who first learned haskell, then clojure and then clojure community paid him trip to clojurecon 16:53:48 conf* 16:54:32 don't confuse correlation with causation 16:55:44 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:56:19 it was better back in the old times, when incapable people simply died, now days idiots like me can live and does so without a purpose 16:56:51 purpose ? 16:56:53 wat 16:57:08 purr pose ? 16:57:18 waaaaahahahaahahahha 16:57:26 badum-tsh 16:57:27 everyone has a purpose back in the days, hunters, cookers, warriors, farmers etc. 16:58:03 i just live, but simply doesnt do anything except that i will start working for some big corporation and do simple tasks and earn nothing 16:58:24 is no difference between then and now 16:59:19 peoples was always confuse about what they want to do in life 16:59:50 farmer son from 200 years ago: "I just live, but simply doesnt do anything except that i will start working for some feudal landowner and do simple tasks and earn nothing" 17:00:34 (except in this case it was probably even closer to nothing) 17:00:40 and same for slaves 2000 years ago 17:01:38 DerGuteMoritz: s/feudal landowner/factory owner/ 17:02:16 well, I was talking about Russia! 17:02:17 :-D 17:02:18 is cps? :) 17:02:36 rudybot: industrial revolution biatch 17:02:36 ijp: recommend me some hand drawn animation biatch 17:03:00 rudybot: we'll discuss that offchannel 17:03:00 ijp: You're welcome. :-) (Use "foo: message" to message foo in-channel; /msg sends a private off-channel message.) 17:03:24 i should kill myself xD 17:03:35 o_O 17:03:38 or start doing drugs 17:04:20 perhaps take up meditation or country walks instead 17:04:22 why to not fight against depression? 17:05:48 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af434d4.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:26 im not derpressed i just realize that im nothing compared to the average, and since im a weak person i will have hard time stand that fact 17:07:37 klrr, both create problems and doesn't solve anything, try to be positive 17:08:42 im not negative, im realistic 17:08:54 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43e24.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:28 is not realistic, how you define and measure average? by what people talks? 17:09:42 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD932F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:10:14 taylanub [tub@p4FD92DA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:10:42 rszeno: it doesnt take 3 years to learn programming if you're sitting in front of the computer all the time, for me it'll take longer if i even will be able to make it 17:10:44 klrr: You have an unrealistic idea of the average. :) 17:11:19 i cant constrait, i get angry when i fail at stuff that i obviosly cant achieve and im weak, no reason to try 17:11:32 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Quit: checkity check out.] 17:11:42 Concentrate? 17:12:01 i know people who are working at google, use php from 5-10 years and didn't know that php have the concept of functions. 17:12:13 is this average? 17:12:32 Sounds more like it. 17:12:42 expect nothing of php users 17:12:59 that said, I didn't think google used PHP 17:14:18 klrr: How is it obvious you cannot achieve it? And what do you mean by weak? 17:17:34 -!- jrapdx0 [~jra@c-76-115-235-187.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:00 if you fail few times, succesive, you start to lose the confidence in what you can do. is true for anybody 17:18:10 weak as in get sad easily, give up easily, not much muscles strength, weak intellegence wise etc. bad human in general if you messuere by basic skills 17:18:12 try to do small steps 17:18:48 klrr: weakness is not a measure of being a bad human 17:18:58 don't measure intelligence, can't be defined 17:19:12 should i learn lisp instead cause haskell is too restrictive for beginners i think, i need a language that doesnt have a complicated typesystem and not as big syntax (well if you can say it like that) 17:20:13 the problem with haskell is that i cant always find the info about stuff that is critical, like the State monad etc. so i basically have to figure out stuff or follow a tutorial which didnt use the right way but another way for some reason 17:22:00 which lisp is best to learn, Scheme, Clojure or Arc or sth else? 17:22:19 Scheme. 17:22:25 okey 17:22:33 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:40 Racket, Chicken, or something else? i ahve chicken installed 17:22:55 Chicken. 17:22:59 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:23:04 okey 17:23:06 trusktr [~trusktr@c-71-193-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:36 chicken it'll be 17:23:46 I think your problem is that you are running around learning different languages and hoping something will click 17:24:00 i know 17:24:05 but it never clicks 17:24:05 you just need to pick one, and spend some time solving problems 17:24:20 http://programmingpraxis.com/ or project euler or something 17:24:45 euler is more brain less coding 17:25:49 I don't solve Project Euler problems often, but when I do, I use brute force 17:26:15 lol 17:26:21 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD6351B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:26:30 i cant really optimize my code anyway so i wont really practice that 17:26:58 klrr: I get the impression your focus is too narrow, but maybe I'm reading you wrong. 17:27:24 i have bad concentration and currently im thinking of three things on same time 17:29:13 Yeah, and I bet you compensate for that by focusing too narrowly on one subject for 3 years even though you're making no progress. Or did I misunderstand the situation? 17:30:42 basically, yes, but recently ive started focus fully on programming, i now consider myself knowing haskell at least enough to be able to write programs if i got hoogle and SO at hand, the problem is though i dont know what to write and a Lisp i too hard since there's so many stuff that above my level 17:31:56 Is programming what you really want to do? 17:32:20 what else should i do? there's nothing :/ 17:32:57 now food 17:33:12 There is nothing you'd rather do, if you could? 17:33:28 rudybot: I want to be a lumberjack 17:33:29 ijp: elisp hacker turned lumberjack! 17:33:44 *offby1* thought ijp was so rugged 17:34:25 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:13 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #scheme 17:44:30 19:33 < Euthy> There is nothing you'd rather do, if you could? 17:44:35 not really 17:44:49 my goal is to learn programming since it can be used in so many areas 17:45:25 even if i dont study CS in the future ive got friends which study subjects like Physics or Cognetive Science and they program a lot in their studies/research 17:46:51 Sounds backwards to me. :) 17:47:04 me too 17:47:25 gonna watch a movie bb thanks for the discussions 17:48:53 i hope it help you because now i'm in a depression, :) 17:49:12 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 18:05:12 cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has joined #scheme 18:10:00 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:13:25 rszeno: smile dont become depressed, i think smiling can heal you from it, even though it's hard! 18:15:53 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD92DA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:16:26 taylanub [tub@p4FD92DA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:16:33 rszeno1 [~rszeno@79.114.107.54] has joined #scheme 18:16:58 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:49 pjb` [~t@90.24.180.197] has joined 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[~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:38 -!- cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:55 i need some answers about rep. i have bigger chances to get an answer ask here or on the lisp channel? :) 20:00:18 s/ask// 20:01:01 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:07 Try here.. rep is reasonably Scheme-ish 20:04:16 In any case it's dead-quiet here so we won't mind the questoin 20:04:41 ok, thank you, :) 20:05:33 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 20:05:40 rep use macros for throw and catch and i try to macroexpand the code but is a closure 20:05:53 is possible to expand it? 20:06:07 and how? 20:06:07 ijp` [~user@host81-155-28-94.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:08:15 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:28 -!- ijp 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