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14:09:44 is a reverse-polish notation lisp really doable without sacrifice? 14:09:57 (assuming you'd want to remove the parentheses) 14:10:24 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:12:00 I imagine the reader would need to be aware of which symbols are defined, undefined, or executable for it to work 14:12:15 I'm not sure it is worth the effort 14:14:01 oh wait, I'm being silly 14:14:04 it works anyway 14:14:10 just need to quot the symbols 14:15:11 You'd need parens or something similar to handle operator precedence anyway 14:15:48 At which point I think I'd prefer (+ (* 1 2) (* 3 4)) read as "the sum of the product of 1 and 2 and the product of 3 and 4", over something like [1 '* 2] '+ [3 '* 4] 14:16:05 microcode: if you want to count arguments from the end, for macros, etc 14:17:23 And implement a complex protocol to let the macros know (at compilation time!) what number of argument takes each operator you define. And find a way to deal with variable arity anyways. 14:17:43 va_start va_arg.... *grin* 14:17:54 'hi print 'mid print 'lo print progn 1 2 = if 14:18:23 The problem is not so much the reverse, than the lack of parentheses. 14:18:48 actually, you don't need fixed numbers of args 14:19:08 bare symbols are assumed executable 14:19:12 when you have parentheses, yes. 14:19:20 a b + ? 14:19:23 and envelope everything before them 14:19:36 until the previous bare symbol 14:19:59 Anything else is worse. Why do you think sexps have survived 64 years? 14:20:09 because they're an easy problem 14:20:21 because M-expressions are bad 14:20:24 also 14:20:33 S expressions ~= parens 14:20:51 the expressions are still symbolic in this case 14:21:18 s/\~=/\!=/ 14:21:32 xrist, too used to ~= 14:21:55 s/\!=/\/=/ 14:23:14 s/s\/.*/g\/microcode\/p/ 14:25:06 pjb: explain to me why S expressions absolutely require parenthesization 14:25:35 They don't. It's macros+variadicity that need them. 14:26:00 why? 14:26:14 please explain this inexorable link between parens and variadicity 14:27:11 Because you either need to encode in the sexp the number of arguments, or you need an out-of-band way to communicate that information from user defined operators to the macros, and then in the case of variadic operators, you still need to encode it in the sexp, so it's simplier to just encode it in the sexps. 14:28:00 2 4 * 2 6 * + 14:28:04 is non ambiguous 14:28:27 so is 2 4 5 3 * 4 6 + * 14:29:29 1 20 'prime? filter-range '+ apply ; should also work 14:29:52 2 4 * 2 6 * + could be (+ (* 6) 2 (* 4) 2) 14:30:20 but it couldn't 14:30:31 + qualifies what precedes it 14:30:45 So your notation is less powerfull than sexps, so it's out. 14:30:49 two expressions precede it 14:30:58 ijp [~user@host81-155-27-181.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:31:20 Nope. 14:31:30 You don't know how many expressions precede it. That's the point. 14:31:35 variadic operators! 14:31:48 think about it for a moment 14:32:07 Do you want macros? 14:32:16 macros are fine here 14:32:19 I don't see what's broken 14:32:23 Do you want variadic operators? 14:32:30 -!- adbge [~rps@c-24-14-251-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:32:33 variadic operators are also not broken 14:32:49 Then the best solution is sexps with parentheses. 14:32:59 how do you come to that conclusion? 14:33:03 I've not broken anything 14:33:16 because your notation is ambiguous! 14:33:23 and I'm suggesting a world free of counting parens and insane editors 14:33:25 Translate (+ (* 6) 2 (* 4) 2) and (+ (* 6 2) (* 4) 2) 14:33:29 it's not ambiguous though 14:33:36 Translate (+ (* 6) 2 (* 4) 2) and (+ (* 6 2) (* 4) 2) 14:34:18 let me guess, someone is proposing another python-esque syntax for lisp 14:34:28 rpn. 14:34:31 wow, my brain must be damaged 14:34:48 I see myself thinking about this a year ago in my IRC logs 14:34:52 and coming to the conclusion that it was ambiguous 14:34:56 sorry to waste your time 14:35:06 my brain doesn't have exception handling for stupid 14:35:06 microcode: no, it's not obvious I agree. Without macros, we could do without parentheses. Without variable arity too. 14:35:40 microcode: why use lisp to begin with when you find parenthetic notation hard to understand and work with? 14:35:41 hmm 14:35:52 it's not particularly difficult anymore 14:36:00 especially with nice editor features 14:36:01 And what's funny, is that while McCarthy definitely wanted to manipulate sexps with code, he didn't invent the notion of macro with lisp, it came 5 years later. 14:36:10 but it took me months to get over it 14:36:28 learning to read and write also takes months, if not years 14:36:45 pjb: mccarthy also wanted foo[bar;baz] 14:37:01 you'd think though, with similar precedence and grammar, lisp might be a bit more natural to a native English speaker with a great deal of literacy. 14:38:02 is like semenglish, :) 14:38:53 Well, precedence is a weak argument too, since mathematicians really define it only for -. .+. and .*. Even with .^. you already have ambiguity. 14:39:03 not to mention using the same writing system, borrowing vocabulary.. 14:40:02 anyithing in english could be expressed as subject predicate object so logic is here and connection with language 14:40:16 microcode: you mean COBOL? 14:40:48 haha 14:40:56 COBOL is a different beast alltogether 14:41:12 it's about a thousand times more complex to define than scheme 14:43:19 I bet one reason for that is precedence rules ;-D 14:43:51 polish notation makes a lot of sense in english-speaking minds 14:44:11 I'd venture to guess that reverse-polish makes a bit more sense to a japanese speaker 14:44:33 minus the english vocab and spaces 14:44:56 microcode: do you know Factor? 14:45:27 Factor sounds like FORTH 14:45:51 wow, looks like FORTH too 14:45:56 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:46:57 snearch [~snearch@brln-4d0cbb65.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 14:47:00 langmartin 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BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:58:33 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.13.78] has joined #scheme 22:03:09 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.13.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:18 -!- czm [~user@unaffiliated/czm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:41 Kruppe [~user@cn-nat2-uw-129-97-124-126.net.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 22:14:50 -!- Kruppe [~user@cn-nat2-uw-129-97-124-126.net.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:21 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:27 sesam123 [~unlucky20@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 22:32:53 in the little schemer he shows arithmetic expressions like (1 + 3) .. is there a real usage for this rather than using (+ 1 3) 22:35:14 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:35:21 adiii [~adityavit@2601:9:3d00:4e:c9a5:b125:dbeb:65d6] has joined #scheme 22:35:58 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:59 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:21 sesam123: none. 22:38:39 -!- dEPy [~depy@46-150-62-58.cable.teleing.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:13 sesam123: well, if you have to write a program that consists in copying three pages of formulas from a math or physics book, it may be worth it to define such a macro to be able to enter the formulas verbatim. But otherwise none. 22:40:51 yeah 22:47:19 -!- civodul [~user@reverse-83.fdn.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:47:33 -!- sesam123 [~unlucky20@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: sesam123] 23:00:51 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:07:26 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:13:34 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #scheme 23:32:25 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:33:15 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@pD9E16B14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:33:49 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #scheme 23:38:00 -!- zacts [~blueberry@174-28-61-125.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38:46 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:39:34 zacts [~blueberry@67-0-135-191.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:43 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:48:46 ASau` [~user@p5797F8AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:50:29 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:52:48 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:56 -!- Triclops256|away is now known as Triclops256