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-!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:41:07 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 08:03:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:21 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:15:42 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:38 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 08:20:41 Arafangion [~Arafangio@101.114.77.182] has joined #scheme 08:45:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.208.66.22] has joined #scheme 08:46:34 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-45-52.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:48:45 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 08:50:35 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:12 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 09:01:48 b4283 [~b4283@114-35-240-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:33 -!- tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:22:50 -!- amgarching [~matveev@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:37:13 zzo38 [~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca] has joined #scheme 09:37:42 I think continuations are easier to understand when used with law of excluded middle. 09:37:45 Do you agree? 09:39:51 zzo38: What is the "law of excluded middle" ? 09:40:49 Law of excluded middle is the law of logic that means either X is true or X is not true. 09:41:12 how does that relate to continuations? 09:41:30 In terms of a function, it is either the value X, or a function that takes X and goes back there to return X instead. 09:41:37 Sounds like a pretty generic way of thought. Boolean algebra is based on it, for example; any programmer would be used to that already, no ? 09:42:11 Call-with-current-continuation corresponds to Peirce's law, which is ((p -> q) -> p) -> p. 09:42:58 Eh ?.. I think it's easiest to understand when you basically know how control flow really works, in an abstract manner. 09:44:17 Well, I approach most problems "intuitively" as someone who lacks formal education. Maybe it makes more sense the way you say, to a "proper" mathematician. 09:44:20 In this case, -> means implication, although if -> means a function, it is the type of call/cc. 09:45:51 I thought call/cc wasn't really a function 09:45:55 Not X is like X implies anything, so if you use function instead of implies, it means what I described, since the result of the function is never used. 09:46:13 or rather the thing that it passes to your proc isn't 09:46:14 DerGuteMoritz: In the mathematical sense, or do you mean "Scheme procedure" ? 09:46:21 taylanub: the former 09:46:23 DerGuteMoritz: Well, it is not really a pure function; that isn't what I meant. I don't know what they call it in Scheme, though. 09:46:58 In Scheme, the reified continuation appears as a procedure, which won't return because it screws the language-semantics. 09:47:15 (Hence delimited-continuations.) 09:47:21 You can sortof biject logical axioms with functional programming at times 09:47:52 e.g. A->B & B->C => A->C is functional composition 09:47:53 nice 09:48:02 LeoNerd: When you don't have continuations, you have only intuitionistic logic. When do you do have continuations, you have classical logic. But, yes, that works. 09:48:13 LeoNerd: what's with the infix notation, I don't understand anything!! 09:50:11 Do you understand me now? 09:51:03 pierpa` [~user@host77-93-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 09:53:32 Not quite, no 09:54:48 What about it do you not quite understand? 10:12:44 -!- zzo38 [~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca] has left #scheme 10:15:55 civodul` [~user@193.50.110.67] has joined #scheme 10:16:06 -!- civodul [~user@193.50.110.199] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:17:15 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@101.114.77.182] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:19:00 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:25:28 jao [~jao@116.pool85-58-58.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 10:25:32 -!- jao [~jao@116.pool85-58-58.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Changing host] 10:25:32 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 10:32:15 -!- kniu [~kniu@c-67-160-8-163.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:33:04 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 10:37:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:43:06 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #scheme 10:45:49 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 10:46:04 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:05 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 10:48:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.208.66.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 11:06:07 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:07:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:57 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 11:21:08 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 11:22:37 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:23:07 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #scheme 11:30:15 -!- civodul` is now known as civodul 11:35:58 -!- arrdem [~user@wireless-206-76-114-129.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:15 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has joined #scheme 11:47:44 amgarching [~matveev@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 11:57:21 tacey [~tacey@220.231.27.150] has joined #scheme 12:15:27 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD345F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:36 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:28:39 Is there a `funcall' in Scheme ? (call procedure arg ...) instead of (apply procedure arglist). 12:29:01 (procedure arg ...) 12:29:03 :-D 12:29:12 Is that in an RnRS ? 12:29:12 I guess you want to pass it to map or something? 12:29:29 nah I mean you just call a procedure like that 12:29:41 no need for funcall 12:29:49 "funcall" is a kludge 12:29:59 I call it fun 12:30:34 Scheme took all defun out of Lisp 12:30:36 OH! .. What the heck am I asking ? :P 12:30:55 Well, the reason I ask is, there could be a "call" generic that's behing non-procedure applicatives. 12:31:05 taylanub: I see how that might be useful for mapping a list of thunks 12:31:19 ah yes, I think Racket has something like that 12:31:40 (define (funcall procedure . arguments) (apply procedure arguments)) 12:31:41 Of course an RnRS wouldn't have that, since they probably are far from considering adding non-procedure applicatives to the language ... 12:31:42 andmap and ormap? 12:32:12 -!- jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@125.119.103.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:29 Riastradh: This is an implementation detail but, in Guile (and perhaps other implementatiosn) a rest-arglist requires heap-allocation. 12:33:00 you could make it a macro 12:33:17 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:34:14 I guess if Guile wanted to implement non-procedure applicatives, it would implement a `call'. The over-head makes me worry though, no matter how efficient `call' itself is .. it would sure be nasty if all plain function-applications make a call to another procedure ... 12:34:56 (Or would it ?) 12:35:02 jarod_ch_ [~jarod_che@125.119.103.234] has joined #scheme 12:35:21 that's the price of polymorphism I guess! 12:36:29 True, that's a cost all strongly-dynamically typed languages have I guess, but normally not in each and every function application. 12:37:08 taylanub: Guile does have applicative objects that are not procedures, such as structs and generic functions 12:37:12 if you have some kind of flow analysis pass you could probably specialize many cases 12:37:30 taylanub: so internally, it "call" VM instructions DTRT with this types of object 12:37:30 oh structs are applicative objects in guile? 12:37:38 they can be applicative 12:37:40 how does that work? like in clojure? 12:37:43 civodul: I thought generic functions are implemented by overriding the procedure to one that will do dynamic-dispatch ? 12:38:05 hmm, i don't remember about generics 12:38:37 hmm no guile 2 package for arch linux :-( 12:38:40 And structs ?.. Any part of the manual I can read about this ? (I did read about structs somewhere .. I don't remember any mention of applicativity.) 12:39:21 taylanub: generics are applicable structs (just checked) 12:40:07 DerGuteMoritz: Guile does incidentally have a `procedure' procedure, which added to my confusion. :P Reading its documentation, I realize it's something about these structs .. I'll read more about that. Thanks civodul. 12:40:30 taylanub: ah, glad to accidentally help 12:41:13 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af431e8.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:25 taylanub: see the "Trampoline Instructions" section of the manual 12:41:57 http://www.sportspowertrampolineparts.com/images/products/detail/trmanual.jpg 12:41:57 http://tinyurl.com/cw8xcbc 12:42:14 I'm moving this to #guile. :) 12:51:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:55:02 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 12:57:19 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #scheme 12:58:01 asumu [~asumu@racket/asumu] has joined #scheme 13:09:12 edw_ [~edw@207.239.61.34] has joined #scheme 13:10:54 -!- tenq [~tenq@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:13 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:54 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:14:14 -!- sirdancealot 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[~trusktr@130.86.99.79] has joined #scheme 17:22:32 I am reading a paper on parser generation (Sperber, Theimann 2000) that is implemented in scheme, and I might need a scheme to implement some stuff in. What would be a decent thing to look at for unix systems? 17:24:39 I usually recommend Racket, Chicken, and Guile, as good big "general purpose" implementations. I'm a fan of the last for cultural reasons. I should update my knowledge on what other implementations are of similar size/nature ... 17:24:57 Gambit 17:25:05 zzing: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations 17:25:05 http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx 17:25:09 Gambit actually lets you use arrow keys to move around at the command line. 17:25:45 Eh ? Sounds like an irrelevant feature to a Scheme; I can get that for any implementation via some wrapper. 17:27:35 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:27:42 walter|r [~walter@c-75-73-211-125.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:44 move around? like readline? 17:28:31 For readline you can always use the "rlwrap" program. Other than that, I could e.g. use Emacs's M-x shell. 17:29:11 With Racket and Guile you can use the Emacs package "Geiser" for some fancy interactive development. 17:29:11 I use rlwrap with oracle all the time :-) 17:29:40 Didn't racket have a gui? (drscheme, plt used to be the name I believe) 17:30:12 Yeah I think it has its own IDE too. 17:30:57 R6RS is the current report right? 17:31:58 It caused some controversy and I don't know if anyone implements it completely. Usually they seem to cherry-pick good parts of it to implement. I might be wrong, my knowledge on R6RS is lacking. 17:32:23 R7RS-small is nearly released, draft 9 can be found on the mailing-list archives. 17:32:35 R7RS-large will then begin and probably take a couple dozen decades. 17:32:43 (Well it already began I think.) 17:32:51 Isn't R7RS-large a little bit of an oxymoron? 17:32:57 Why ? 17:33:12 Lisp is large, scheme is small is the general impression I have always had 17:33:28 nothing that gets used stays small 17:33:49 The Scheme standard is quite small 17:33:58 Up to R5RS .. 17:34:05 Certainly smaller than C++11 17:34:10 sure, but no-one codes to it 17:34:16 so it's size is irrelevant 17:34:28 zzing: Racket, Guile, Scheme, etc. are already rather big .. probably as much as typical CL implementations .. 17:34:37 heh 17:34:40 Err, s/Scheme/Chicken/ wtf 17:35:37 Gambit looks tasty too by the way .. I so wish I could convince my workplace to use it in iOS development .. but I'm the only person there who's into Lisp .. 17:36:09 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 17:36:36 taylanub: how big is a CL installation? 17:36:53 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:36:55 taylanub, how much can it do on iOS? 17:37:24 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 17:37:31 The main development language of iOS, Objective-C, is basically a run-time system in plain C; the syntax is just transformed to function calls like e.g. objc_msgSend to send a message to an object; I think it would be easy to wrap that in a Scheme implementation in such a way that one can have all Objective-C classes as first-class citizens in Scheme, being able to code pretty much everything in Scheme instead of Objective-C .. 17:37:32 I have been meaning to look into Nu, which is an s-expression based language on top of objective-C's object model 17:37:44 Oh, I should look into that too then. 17:37:53 mario-goulart: I don't know, I reckon SBCL was quite huge though. 17:38:08 CLisp less so, and then there's ECL which is pretty tiny AFAIK. 17:38:17 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:38:55 Last time I checked, a chicken installation took less than 10MB. 17:39:13 I'd compare Racket and SBCL. 17:40:47 It appears the course I have to take next year a 4th year programming languages course uses racket as one of the languages. 17:41:07 On my server I have a chicken installation which occupies 28MB. chicken-status lists 102 modules. It's pretty small, IMO. 17:41:51 Hrm, the Racket installer for Windows (It must've failed to understand my OpenBSD user-agent ..) is 50 MB. 17:45:24 I just asked some ArchLinux people and apparently on the Arch repos, the SBCL package is 70 MB whereas Racket is 380 MB. :P ("Installed size", for both.) 17:46:27 When I copied the 70mb compressed folder over on my mac it was about 380 17:46:34 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-75-73-211-125.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:46:35 A little bit for a 128gb drive :p 17:46:45 adiii [~adityavit@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-05.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:46:53 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:14 The compressed size of SBCL is 9 MB; that of Racket is 50 MB. 17:48:01 taylanub: well, racket is still smaller than ghc there :) 17:48:44 -!- zzing [~zzing@wlan.cspc1.uwindsor.ca] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:49:54 380MB! O_O 17:50:30 you get a lot though 17:50:51 *ijp* still covets racket's macro stepper 17:53:52 fuzz [~fuzz@s213-103-207-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 17:54:15 hi guys, got a question about recursion and tail-recursion, regarding: http://pastebin.com/6CX4QxwN 17:54:36 anyone willing to lend a hand? 17:55:21 If you use a nicer paste site, yes. We have some in the topic 17:55:36 steady on 17:56:10 fuzz: what's the question? 17:57:24 Got this addera function. Last call should be tail-recursive. However, the first recursive call isn't. Having difficulties figuring out how to make that call tail-recursive as well. 17:57:26 -!- trusktr [~trusktr@130.86.99.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:57:43 (that - the first one) 17:58:24 the trick is to have addera take an additional "accumulator" parameter, representing the amound summed so far 17:59:08 oh nice 17:59:27 will work with that 17:59:29 thanks! 18:02:03 no problem, and once you are familiar with doing this by hand, look into the "left fold", which encapsulates this pattern on lists 18:03:34 18WAC8WUR [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 18:09:54 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #scheme 18:10:41 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:12:32 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:07 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #scheme 18:14:47 will do :) 18:22:19 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 18:23:21 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit 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leaving] 21:33:42 asumu_ [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has joined #scheme 21:33:51 -!- asumu_ is now known as asumu 21:34:07 -!- asumu [~at@2001:470:b:b7:1e6f:65ff:fe23:c3d4] has quit [Changing host] 21:34:07 asumu [~at@racket/asumu] has joined #scheme 21:45:03 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 21:47:27 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:50:49 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:24 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:57:28 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 22:00:36 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 22:03:49 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 22:06:06 -!- ura [~ura@unaffiliated/ura] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:44 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:15:03 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 22:17:32 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 22:23:29 -!- edw_ [~edw@207.239.61.34] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:32:04 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60CCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:32:21 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60CCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:26 hi sirdancealot 22:33:31 and schemers :) 22:34:12 dto: hi! you from #java? :-) 22:34:39 nope. from #lispgames 22:34:50 dto: huh, I thought you'd disappeared off the face of the earth 22:35:11 but recently i visited here because of needing a little help building Fluxus 22:35:17 ijp: nope. hereiam 22:39:52 hi:) 22:39:53 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:56 dto: hehe, sorry, it was a lame attempt at making a joke about the Data Transfer Object pattern 22:40:15 dto: I saw a video about Fluxus just today! great stuff 22:41:38 -!- mutley89_ [~mutley89@host86-130-5-45.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:12 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:48:05 DerGuteMoritz: is this the thing that is called "record" or "struct" in more succint languages? ;) 22:48:24 gleag: something like that I guess :-) 22:48:43 scheme isn't a succient language 22:48:57 In Java 8, it will be "data transfer polymorphic computational heap entity" 22:49:13 here, we'd have make-data-transfer-object, and data-transfer-object-$foo and data-transfer-object-$foo-set! 22:49:49 ijp: Why not? A lambda in Scheme is shorter than an anonymous inner class in Java, isn't it? 22:50:09 the next java will have lambda 22:50:54 ijp: and at that instant, the vacuum metastability event will be triggered and the universe as we know it will cease to exist. 22:54:23 mutley89 [~mutley89@host86-130-5-45.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:55:24 DerGuteMoritz: oh :) 22:55:33 DerGuteMoritz: i have to leave but i'll tell you my big news later :) 22:55:36 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:26 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving]