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[~hobbes@fsf/member/Sebboh] has joined #scheme 16:18:33 I'm using mit-scheme (9.1-1 from Debian) to evaluate exercises in SICP. The results are not what I expected. I've re-read the text a few times now, and concluded that either I still don't understand it, or mit-scheme is not evaluating via "applicative order" (cf. normal order evaluation). Exercise 1.5 here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.5 is what I'm pondering. 16:19:33 My scheme gets stuck in a loop when I eval (test 0 (p)). 16:19:34 I head MIT Scheme is not the best Scheme to follow SICP anymore, because it changed. 16:19:51 http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations ... 16:19:52 http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx 16:20:00 Thanks taylanub. 16:20:05 "Many people come by #scheme asking which Scheme they should use for following along with Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. SICP was originally written for MIT Scheme, but these days it's easier to use Neil Van Dyke's SICP mode for Racket. It has nice support for SICP's "picture langauge". So do that!" 16:20:36 (s/head/heard/ by the way.) 16:20:48 Sebboh: it is supposed to loop infinitely 16:21:23 in a normal order interpreter, it evaluates to 0 since it doesn't need to evaluate y 16:22:41 ijp, I thought that applicative order was the one where y is never evaluated. ..I'm gonna scan this text ONE more time before I report a bug to Abelson/Sussman. ;P 16:23:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:51 scheme has a normal order evaluator, but it is in the macro system. 16:24:27 "This alternative ``fully expand and then reduce'' evaluation method is known as normal-order evaluation, in contrast to the ``evaluate the arguments and then apply'' method that the interpreter actually uses, which is called applicative-order evaluation." 16:24:27 but functions don't work that way, they always evaluate their arguments 16:24:57 eli has some complaints about the terminology here, but I forget the argument 16:25:29 er, I think that I may have answered my own question. 16:25:33 Hrm, what does "fully expand" mean ? Would it not expand (p) to infinity ? 16:25:45 taylanub: expand the body of the function 16:26:12 And expanding the body of (p) in exercise 1.5 is an exercise in futility. 16:26:12 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:26:12 Oh, but not recursively .. 16:26:16 hm? 16:26:35 It expands a function's definition, once, then reduces. 16:26:56 (test 0 (p)) -expand-> (if (= x 0) 0 y) 16:27:37 Simple, but not how Scheme works (wrt. function-application). 16:28:06 "it" is normal-order eval, in taylanub's most recent lines. Yes? 16:28:24 yes 16:28:31 Yes, normal-order expands first. 16:28:46 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #scheme 16:28:48 Er, I didn't fill (p) in the place of `y', of course. 16:28:56 And 0 in the place of x. :P 16:29:06 (test 0 (p)) -expand-> (if (= 0 0) 0 (p)) 16:29:09 rudybot: I always knew that taylanub was a bad egg, so incomplete with his substitutions 16:29:09 ijp: not quite -- if I have two substitutions in my history, both with the same from_string, I can't pick the second one 16:29:19 LOL 16:30:18 I think that the origin of the confusion (and not just mine, there are posts about this exercise on StackExchange, for example) is that applicative order is described as "more" efficent, and I quickly assumed that it was more efficent because it doesn't expand/eval/touch y. (Which is the frickin' opposite of what I was supposed to understand, apparently.) 16:30:55 it can be more efficient, and it can be less efficient 16:31:09 it depends 16:31:11 -!- leppie [~lolcow@105-236-223-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:26 *offby1* wishes for a one-handed econmist 16:33:46 if one was always more efficient than the other, we wouldn't still be using both 16:34:02 Riddle me this, Batman: (if (= 0 0) 'hello (/ 1 0)) 16:34:24 this is what we in the business call a "special form" 16:34:58 `if' is a special form. Special forms don't follow applicative order, but their own custom rules. 16:35:03 (if ...) is special? And that's why I don't hit div by zero, but I do hit the (p) loop? 16:35:20 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:35:28 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-223-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:35:31 You hit the (p) loop when during (test 0 (p)), the evaluator tries to calculate (p) so it can apply test to it (and 0). 16:35:46 Since `test' is a function and follows applicative order. 16:35:55 of course, if needn't be special, since you can do ((if (= 0 0) (lambda () 'hello) (lambda () (/ 1 0)))), but that would be rather inconvenient 16:36:15 ijp: Don't mess with my head. 16:36:33 Don't you need *some* kind of primitive if ? 16:36:47 no 16:37:00 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #scheme 16:37:13 you can model if solely with procedure applications 16:37:24 *taylanub* has an existential crisis. 16:37:31 *ijp* assigns taylanub a large section of barendreght for homework 16:38:13 (define (if p t f) (p t f)) (define (true x y) x) (define (false x y) y) 16:38:53 -!- amgarching [~amgarchin@p4FD60A46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39:05 Sebboh: cover you irc client, there are sicp spoilers afoot 16:39:07 OK, I kind of guessed that .. 16:39:22 ... (define (if p t f) (p t f)) (define (true x y) x) (define (false x y) y) 16:39:22 [11:38] 16:39:22 *** amgarching (~amgarchin@p4FD60A46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has quit: Ping 16:39:22 timeout: 245 seconds 16:39:26 Can't do THAT in java... :P 16:39:36 erm, sorry for the ERC hiccup. 16:39:58 *taylanub* spams Circe advertisiment. 16:40:11 advertisement* 16:40:32 Not sure if you really can't do that with Java. 16:40:46 This is not my first IRC client, tay, and certainly not my favorite. Using this is a strategic decision... 16:41:00 of course, the above version of 'if' follows the usual 'eager' evaluation fules of Scheme, and so you'll want to wrap those branches in thunks 16:41:25 (A thunk is a zero-argument procedure.) 16:42:07 Now I'd ask about eager-evaluation vs. applicative-order, but ... 16:42:15 billybober [~billybobe@176.61.60.134] has joined #scheme 16:42:38 for more on this, ask your nearest lambda calculist, or I dunno, read Lambda the Ultimate Imperative or something 16:42:46 taylan, hm, I don't know how to return methods in that manner, much less invoke them in that manner. I mean, you could dick around with reflection all day to pull a trick that LOOKS the same, but I am under the impression that you can't do that kind of thing in java (the java language with ordinary javac and no bytecode manipulation). 16:42:50 .oO(lambda calculator?) 16:43:22 taylanub: I think smalltalk treated conditionals this way 16:44:45 which I suppose might be useful if you want to replace {True, False} with some other boolean algebra 16:46:20 Sebboh: You'd make an interface "boolean" that has instance-variables "first" and "second" which are objects adhering to the "execute" interface that has an "execute" instance-method, then the `if' function would take one object adhering to the "boolean" interface, and two objects adhering to the "execute" interface, assign those objects to the "first" and "second" ivars of the boolean object, ... 16:46:39 :( 16:46:46 :D 16:47:01 Sebboh: Well, for -- http://openjdk.java.net/projects/lambda/ -- now. (Though you could certainly argue you can do what's essentially the same thing already, even though it doesn't look the same.) 16:47:01 *taylanub* programs Objective-C for a living, at the moment. 16:47:14 -!- sethalves [~user@headache.hungry.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:48:05 sethalves [~user@headache.hungry.com] has joined #scheme 16:54:30 taylanub: hm. bbiab. 16:57:10 -!- billybober [~billybobe@176.61.60.134] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:00:31 carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:00:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:51 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:06:39 amgarching [~amgarchin@p4FD60A46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:07:56 -!- Flame_Alchemist is now known as Flame[afk] 17:08:23 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93B2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:08 tay, who is apparently gone: I messed around with a java class I called NewIf for several minutes and concluded "screw this". 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