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00:02:15 <ijp> I forget if the spec says to splice the (begin (define ...)) in all those lambda, but the begin is superfluous
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16:48:29 <throstur> is the syntax for map (map fun lis) or (map lis fun) ?
16:49:11 <throstur> I'm going to guess map fun lis
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16:52:18 <jaaso> yup, first one
16:52:59 <throstur> anyone know why this results in a runtime error? http://pastie.org/6628999
16:53:01 <throstur> car : expects a pair, given 1 (in duplicate)
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17:01:17 <jaaso> you are trying eg. (car 1) in duplicate
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17:02:12 <jaaso> and you are not sending list from dpl_square afik, here (map (comp duplicate (lambda(x) (* x x))) lis)
17:03:15 <throstur> so the problem is that (comp duplicate (lambda...)) isn't returning a list?
17:03:57 <throstur> I'm very new to Scheme, keep trying to solve things in a stupid manner
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17:04:32 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: your lambda returns an atom, you're trying to car an atom
17:04:39 <throstur> I see
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17:07:28 <throstur> ah thanks
17:07:50 <throstur> but now I've got a list of lists with the squared numbers, isn't there a built-in function that concatenates the list?
17:08:33 <throstur> so instead of (list (list 1 1) (list 4 4) ..) it would be (list 1 1 4 4 ...)
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17:08:55 <throstur> or maybe I'm tackling this from the wrong angle
17:09:05 <jaaso> try (append list1 list2)
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17:20:45 <throstur> sorry for the bothering, but I'm trying to do what `square` does now, but with the `comp` function, could anyone tell me why dupl_square doesn't do the same thing as square? http://pastie.org/6629475
17:20:59 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: what are you trying ...
17:21:00 <joneshf-laptop> heh
17:21:54 <throstur> I want dupl_square to do exactly what square does, which is take a list, square each item and then duplicate the items
17:22:12 <throstur> so '(1 2 3) -> '(1 4 9) -> '(1 1 4 4 9 9)
17:22:18 <LeoNerd> By the way, _ is very poor Scheme style. The usual naming convention is hyphen-separated-identifiers
17:22:21 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: square duplicates items?
17:22:46 <throstur> no the duplicate function does that
17:23:19 <joneshf-laptop> okay, so dupl-square is composed of two functions then?
17:23:53 <joneshf-laptop> where `square' is `g' and `duplicate' is `f'?
17:23:56 <throstur> three actually, (comp f g), (duplicate lis), and (lambda (x) (* x x))
17:24:13 <throstur> duplicate is f and g is the lambda (i.e. square)
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17:43:17 <throstur> Can anyone tell me why dupl_square and dupl_square2 don't return the same thing? http://pastie.org/6629800
17:43:19 <jaaso> something like this ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136126. Dunno is it good to use (cons lis lis) in duplicate function, you need append.
17:43:41 <throstur> dupl_square returns (lambda (a1) ...) but dupl_square2 returns the right thing
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17:45:52 <throstur> jaaso: your duplicate doesn't work right :/
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17:47:22 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: sorry, had to do things
17:47:29 <jaaso> so it should be something like this (144 144 9 9 16 16 9 9)
17:47:38 <throstur> yes
17:47:48 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: so you need to pass a list down to your `g' function yes?
17:47:56 <throstur> with (dupl_square '(12 3 4 3))
17:48:15 <throstur> well f is duplicate in this case which requires a list
17:48:19 <throstur> g is just a lambda expression
17:48:21 <throstur> so I have no idea
17:48:26 <throstur> my brain is broken
17:48:41 <joneshf-laptop> okay, you want `dupl_square' to take a list right?
17:49:14 <throstur> yes :D
17:49:58 <joneshf-laptop> now, do you want to iterate over that list, in `dupl_square', or do you want your functions to handle that?
17:50:43 <throstur> well dupl_square is the only function that I want to modify, since the other functions work as-is and changing them could break other stuff
17:50:51 <throstur> so, iterate over list in dupl_square
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17:51:56 <throstur> I wanted to use `map` to iterate over it
17:52:17 <joneshf-laptop> okay
17:52:37 <joneshf-laptop> so you want to map `g' over each item in the list right?
17:53:00 <throstur> yes
17:53:09 <throstur> I thought ( comp duplicate (map (lambda (x) (* x x) ) lis) ) would do it
17:53:29 <throstur> but that only returns (lambda (a1) ...) instead of (1 1 4 4 9 9)
17:53:50 <throstur> s/(1/'(1
17:54:29 <joneshf-laptop> okay, take that example
17:54:31 <joneshf-laptop> what is g?
17:54:57 <joneshf-laptop> `f' is `duplicate' right?
17:57:55 <throstur> yes
17:58:09 <throstur> g is map (lambda (x) (* x x)) lis
17:58:21 <throstur> joneshf-laptop:
17:58:22 <joneshf-laptop> and what does that evaluate to?
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17:58:58 <throstur> it squares the items in the list
17:59:18 <throstur> i.e. (map (lambda (x) (* x x)) '(1 2 3)) evaluates to '(1 4 9)
17:59:19 <joneshf-laptop> right, but if `g' is (map (lambda (x) (* x x)) lis) then what did you get back after it's been evaluated?
17:59:22 <joneshf-laptop> right
17:59:40 <joneshf-laptop> but you said that `comp' should have two functions as its arguments
17:59:50 <joneshf-laptop> you've passed it a function and a list
17:59:57 <throstur> ahhh I see
18:00:09 <throstur> but how do I pass this as a function :S
18:00:37 <joneshf-laptop> well what do you want `g' to do?
18:00:48 <joneshf-laptop> square each number in the list right?
18:00:51 <throstur> yes
18:01:03 <joneshf-laptop> make a function that takes a list, and squares each number in it
18:01:08 <joneshf-laptop> make that your g
18:01:22 <throstur> so basically (lambda (x) (* x x)), I thought
18:01:24 <throstur> but that doesn't run
18:01:30 <throstur> ah wait
18:01:32 <throstur> x is an atom
18:01:36 <joneshf-laptop> right
18:01:40 <throstur> I'm beginning to understand this a little better
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18:01:47 <joneshf-laptop> good
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18:02:14 <throstur> so I should be thinking of a nested lambda expression shouldn't I?
18:02:29 <joneshf-laptop> that's one way yes
18:09:15 <throstur> maybe I'm thinking this wrong
18:09:24 <throstur> dupl_square shouldn't take a list as an argument should it...
18:09:40 <throstur> or maybe it should...
18:09:56 <joneshf-laptop> that's entirely up to you
18:10:02 <joneshf-laptop> did you get it to work?
18:10:08 <throstur> can a function take no arguments?
18:10:18 <joneshf-laptop> sure
18:10:24 <throstur> define (fun null) ?
18:11:00 <turbofail> (define (fun) ...)
18:11:05 <joneshf-laptop> (define (func) <body>)
18:11:44 <joneshf-laptop> you were close with your lambda there
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18:12:32 <joneshf-laptop> you have `(lambda (x) (* x x))' which takes one number and squares it, so just make that function operate on a list of numbers
18:13:09 <joneshf-laptop> or a better way to say it, create a function that returns a function that operates on a list of numbers
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18:17:51 <throstur> oh my god I must be retarded or something
18:18:36 <joneshf-laptop> you know how to map right?
18:19:01 <throstur> (map (function) (list))
18:19:19 <joneshf-laptop> right, now how you make that the return value of a function?
18:20:04 <throstur> I... am not sure
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18:20:20 <joneshf-laptop> okay
18:20:40 <joneshf-laptop> look at your square lambda
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18:20:47 <joneshf-laptop> what is its return?
18:20:56 <throstur> (lambda (x) (* x x)) returns a function that squares x
18:21:06 <throstur> right?
18:21:18 <throstur> so ((lambda (x) (* x x)2) would return 4
18:21:30 <throstur> bracket mismatch, but you know
18:22:03 <joneshf-laptop> right
18:22:14 <joneshf-laptop> so what function does it return?
18:22:31 <joneshf-laptop> btw, i'm not entirely sure return is the proper name here
18:22:53 <throstur> it returns (* x x) ?
18:22:56 <joneshf-laptop> yes
18:23:16 <joneshf-laptop> so it's a function of one argument `x' that returns a function `(* x x)'
18:24:05 <joneshf-laptop> so in your `comp' function, what do you want the function `g' to be?
18:24:34 <throstur> I should want it to be... a function that squares x?
18:24:59 <throstur> but I'm not even entirely sure anymore what my comp function should do, scheme has broken my brain
18:25:16 <LeoNerd> I haven't been keeping track - what's the conversation and why is it taking so long to solve it?
18:25:48 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: `g' has to give `f' a value it can use right?
18:26:04 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: based on your `comp' function
18:26:08 <throstur> LeoNerd: http://pastie.org/6629800 I want dupl_square to behave as dupl_square2 but I want to use comp duplicate (lambda..) to do it
18:26:22 <throstur> yes joneshf-laptop .... so g must give f a list
18:26:38 <throstur> so g must return... a list of atoms
18:26:40 <LeoNerd> ... whatwhatwhy?
18:26:54 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: right
18:27:34 <LeoNerd> throstur: You are aware map can't do that, right? Give it a 3-element list, it -will- return a 3-element list.
18:27:35 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: you want `g' to return your list of squared numbers
18:27:38 <LeoNerd> You either want map/concat or map/values
18:27:45 <jaaso> My simple solution http://paste.lisp.org/display/136127
18:28:13 <LeoNerd> (map/concat (lambda (x) (list (square x) (square x))) lis)    or     (map/values (lambda (x) (values (square x) (square x))) lis)
18:28:16 <throstur> jaaso: that is dupl_square2 from http://pastie.org/6629800
18:28:49 <throstur> thanks joneshf-laptop, I'm going to think about this for a bit and maybe draw it up
18:29:29 <jaaso> throstur: ah nvm :)
18:31:21 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: okay
18:31:54 <joneshf-laptop> throstur: just think about how the function `(lambda (x) (* x x))' returns `(* x x)' and apply it to what you want
18:33:17 <throstur> ahhhh
18:33:18 <throstur> I got it
18:33:29 <joneshf-laptop> cool
18:36:25 <throstur> But one thing, it only works when I use a helper function, why doesn't it work when I substitute the helper function call with it's body? http://pastie.org/6630465
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18:40:18 <throstur> ah I got it!
18:40:26 <throstur>  ((comp duplicate (lambda (lis) (map (lambda(x) (* x x) ) lis ) ) ) lis)
18:40:47 <throstur> `obviously' I have to do another lambda to make it return a function
18:40:54 <throstur> thanks joneshf-laptop you're a godsend
18:41:01 <throstur> I've learned a lot here
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21:32:55 <taylanub> For what is the (let ((x x)) ...) hack again ?..
21:33:35 <taylanub> Well, I see it's for "making sure x is bound to the standard x binding," but how is that supposed to work ?..
21:34:47 <taylanub> Is (let ((x x)) ...) not a no-op ?
21:35:55 <LeoNerd> Not quite
21:36:07 <LeoNerd> It makes another nested x name, that's scoped only to the let form
21:36:20 <LeoNerd> So if you   (let ((x x)) (set! x 123) .... )    the outer x isn't disturbed
21:37:32 <wbooze> what about (let ((x x) (print x)) ?
21:38:11 <ijp> depends on where you put the parenthesis you are missing
21:38:21 <wbooze> just after it
21:38:30 <ijp> then it's an error, since the let has no body
21:38:41 <wbooze> (let ((x x)) (print x))
21:38:54 <ijp> if that's just the same as (print x)
21:39:02 <ijp> s/if//
21:39:50 <wbooze> no i mean what's the initial value of that lexical-x ?
21:40:09 <ijp> whatever you define it to be
21:42:11 <ijp> taylanub: and as an extension of what LeoNerd said, if someone else mutated the top-level x, then this would not be visible to you either
21:42:31 <taylanub> I realized a second before you said it. :P
21:44:05 <taylanub> Will set! conceivably be really abandoned in R8RS ?
21:44:18 <ijp> lol
21:44:24 <LeoNerd> I do hope not
21:44:37 <LeoNerd> One reason I like Scheme is that "it's like functional except I can do mutable state as well"
21:45:02 *ijp* rolls eyes
21:45:19 <taylanub> I thought at least some people were serious about abandoning it ?
21:45:28 <LeoNerd> There might be subsets
21:45:51 <ijp> taylanub: anything is possible; I could wake up tomorrow to find myself surrounded by beautiful women, and here that the PHP authors have been charged with crimes against technology.
21:45:57 <ijp> hear*
21:45:57 <taylanub> And IIRC the last time I wrongly asked this as "will mutation be abandoned," I had received "not all mutation, just set!" as a response, but I'm not sure if that's what it exactly was.
21:46:17 <LeoNerd> e.g. I believe in r7 set-car! and set-cdr! are optional... which means if you don't use them then it is known that lists are immutable
21:46:19 <LeoNerd> Which can help things
21:46:44 <ijp> not really
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21:47:04 <taylanub> ijp: There's still a vague "scale" of likelyhood though. :P
21:47:15 <taylanub> likelihood*
21:48:05 <ijp> string-set! and set-c[ad]r! I wouldn't miss in the slightest, and we could conceivably got rid of them in r7rs were it not for the reset back to r5rsland
21:48:41 <taylanub> Maybe that's what I remember wrong and it was "not all mutation, just set-c[ad]r!" ...
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21:48:58 <ijp> LeoNerd: you can't really make that assertion, unless the function can't accept lists from outside the module
21:49:09 <LeoNerd> ijp: program-wide
21:49:13 <LeoNerd> If no module uses it
21:49:31 <ijp> stalin aside, do any schemes do whole program analysis?
21:49:35 <taylanub> (Anyway, I should obviously form my own educated opinion.)
21:51:39 <taylanub> (Wish I had a chance to use Scheme in my job or something, to gain some actual experience.)
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