00:04:01 ijp [~user@host86-168-32-87.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:09:50 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:11:37 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:11:54 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 00:12:06 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 00:15:54 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:21:22 -!- amgarching [~amgarchin@p4FD60BB8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:26:13 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #scheme 00:31:16 God damn it: "anomolous" exists, but "nomolous" doesn't; why wasn't English designed by engineers? 00:31:34 Maybe it was designed by the greatest engineer: emergent responses to stochastic systems. 00:31:45 Christ almighty. 01:04:41 the person who wrote English was trolling 01:26:24 serhart 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[~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:04:03 -!- zacts [~lcc@67-0-140-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:04:03 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #scheme 05:10:58 cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has joined #scheme 05:12:03 Can somebody provide a brief explanation as to why this is an "ill-formed definition"? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136096 05:17:43 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:24:05 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 05:27:14 cinolt: because when you are defining a value, it can only have expression 05:27:24 secondly, that expression cannot then use define 05:27:42 cinolt: did you perhaps intend foo to be a function? 05:28:16 ijp: It could go either way; in my application foo is simply a label on a certain part of a procedure definition to make things more clear. 05:28:35 ijp: It's evident that the expression cannot then use define, I was asking more along the lines of why Scheme doesn't allow it. 05:28:59 what would its scope be? 05:29:27 ijp: The definition of foo, I would surmise. 05:29:40 more obviously, what would its value be? 05:29:44 consider (define foo y) (+ (define foo x) foo) ; is this (+ x x) or (+ x y) 05:30:26 I thought the value for (define foo x) would be unspecified. 05:30:45 cinolt: then it is thoroughly useless as an expression 05:31:06 -!- pierpa` [~user@host193-223-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:31:14 ijp: That still doesn't quite get to the crux of my question, however. 05:31:27 cinolt: what is the scope of the second foo? 05:31:46 ijp: I don't understand the question. 05:31:47 schemes answer is "lol, u crazy?" 05:32:16 cinolt: it's the same question as the one you gave, translated to a different exprssion 05:32:23 ijp: For instance: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136097 05:33:25 ijp: The first foo would be a variable which holds a certain value. The second foo would be a function, which when evaluated evaluates to the same certain value. 05:33:50 cinolt: okay then, so use a let 05:34:05 that way we don't need to come up with an arbitrary decision for this special case 05:34:57 ijp: What arbitrary decision for what special case? 05:35:32 ijp: I'm asking why a define would be invalid, suggesting an alternative doesn't answer that. 05:35:56 it's invalid, because definitions are invalid in an expression context 05:36:20 the same reason (+ (define x 3) 3) is invalid 05:37:03 ijp: So the second argument of lambda is not an expression context? 05:37:14 no, it is a definition context 05:37:39 (or whatever the correct standards terminology for this is) 05:40:02 similarly, you couldn't do (define (foo) (quux 'zot) (define bar 3) bar) 05:40:31 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:11 So apparently the use of define is restricted to the lambda expression after the arguments 05:42:39 And, the top-level scope of 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[~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:10:24 -!- ijp [~user@host86-168-32-87.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:03 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #scheme 20:13:15 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-72-92-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:56 cinolt [4247579e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.71.87.158] has joined #scheme 20:23:34 When is it ever better to use an internal define over a let/letrec/let* inside a top-level define? 20:24:02 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:46 they're equivalent, so that's up to you 20:24:51 well letrec is anyway 20:25:27 I'd use an internal define if I wasn't using a let-style form; even if you can technically (let () ....) it just looks messy 20:25:35 From what I know, let can be used anywhere an internal define could be used, but not the other way around 20:25:42 But... opinion, style, ...it's all ultimately equivalent 20:26:41 anyway in my opinion it's often cleaner to express several internal mutually recursive procedures using internal defines than it is to have everything bound in letrec 20:27:00 so that's when i would use it 20:27:33 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 20:28:05 Normally I would think internal defines were more cleaner; it uses less parentheses. Until I found out that you couldn't use an internal define when defining a variable. 20:29:02 i.e. (define a (define b (+ b 2)) (b 1)) is invalid; i would have to use a let 20:29:12 jao [~jao@199.223.125.130] has joined #scheme 20:29:12 -!- jao [~jao@199.223.125.130] has quit [Changing host] 20:29:12 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 20:29:24 And I like consistency more than anything, so I perhaps would have to change all my internal defines to let's 20:29:55 uh. how would your example even make sense? 20:30:13 a is supposed to equal 3 20:30:51 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:09 (define (a) (define b (+ b 2)) (b 1)) This is valid. 20:31:29 it's not, because b is not a function but you're trying to call it as one 20:31:53 well technically you're trying to use it as both a function and an integer 20:32:02 Oh, whoops 20:32:16 (define a (define (b arg) (+ arg 2)) (b 1)) 20:32:17 That's what I meant. 20:33:07 And that statement is invalid in Scheme; I would have to use a let 20:33:39 So internal defines would be more restrictive than let, though they serve the same purpose 20:34:25 So my question is why even allow internal defines at all? Sure you could say for "style", is that really in the minimalistic Scheme spirit though? 20:36:22 that's not really what internal defines are for. define isn't supposed to be used in a context where a value is expected 20:37:21 So define and let don't serve exactly the same purpose? 20:37:29 not exactly 20:40:08 in particular let is actually totally different from define 20:40:42 letrec is more similar to define, but it still returns a value 20:44:01 amoe_ [~amoe@host-2-96-231-135.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:46 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:44:59 cinolt: not really, otherwise we wouldn't have bothered adding let or let* or case or cond or they (define (foo ...) ...) sugar or ... 20:47:07 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-161-127.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:47:38 code should be written to be read, not to fit some self-flagellating notion of minimality 20:49:06 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 20:49:10 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:02 ijp: If I recall, there was a level of hell in Dante's inferno where certain monks were required to write write-only code. 20:54:45 The flagellum being Perl or APL, presumably. 21:02:25 -!- agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:59 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:34 -!- ijp is now known as clippy` 21:11:02 -!- clippy` is now known as ijp 21:14:35 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 21:19:16 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:21:48 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-mjgyaraosnywtaoj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:10 aloysius21 [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:07 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jxzoropvsaghyqhn] has joined 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has joined #scheme 23:11:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:14:28 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:24 -!- kuribas [~user@94-227-88-230.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:21:55 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:56 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 23:27:06 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:39 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 23:36:25 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 23:47:06 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:53:05 what's wrong with the move function? whats wrong with the move function? 23:53:05 http://bpaste.net/show/HuGm6sPgHSHZzayNcuh5/ 23:55:53 I'm assuming the issue is the (begin (define fromtile ...) .... 23:56:19 you can't have a define where an expression is expected 23:57:31 definitions are not expressions, and are only allowed in certain contexts 23:58:23 if you really want to use define instead of let&co. use (let () ...) instead of (begin ...) 23:59:03 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme