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03:55:39 <covi> What's the difference between (lambda x 1) and (lambda (x) 1)?
03:57:31 <offby1> the first takes any number of arguments; the second takes exactly one argument.
03:57:40 <offby1> rudybot: (define no-parens (lambda x ))
03:57:40 <rudybot> *offby1: your sandbox is ready
03:57:41 <rudybot> *offby1: error: #<undefined>:1:18: lambda: bad syntax in: (lambda x)
03:57:42 <offby1> rudybot: (define no-parens (lambda x 1))
03:57:42 <rudybot> *offby1: Done.
03:57:48 <offby1> rudybot: (define parens (lambda (x) 1))
03:57:48 <rudybot> *offby1: Done.
03:57:57 <offby1> rudybot: (no-parens 'hey 'you 'lookit 'me 'whee)
03:57:58 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: 1
03:58:01 <offby1> rudybot: (parens 'hey 'you 'lookit 'me 'whee)
03:58:02 <rudybot> *offby1: error: procedure parens: expects 1 argument, given 5: 'hey 'you 'lookit 'me 'whee
03:58:06 <offby1> rudybot: (parens 'hey)
03:58:07 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: 1
03:58:09 <offby1> rudybot: (no-parens 'hey)
03:58:10 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: 1
03:58:18 <offby1> covi: capice?
03:58:25 <offby1> capisce?
03:58:38 <covi> offby1: very clear, thanks. haven't encountered the former
03:58:56 <offby1> it's certainly less common.
03:59:06 <offby1> You sometimes also see (lambda (a b c . rest) ...)
03:59:17 <offby1> which means it takes three or more arguments
03:59:28 <covi> offby1: so for the former, no arguments are ever bound to 'x' right?
03:59:38 <offby1> wrong
03:59:56 <offby1> rudybot: (define no-parens (lambda x (format "here's x: ~a" x)))
03:59:57 <rudybot> *offby1: Here's a tougher one
04:00:00 <offby1> heh
04:00:03 <offby1> rudybot: eval (define no-parens (lambda x (format "here's x: ~a" x)))
04:00:04 <rudybot> *offby1: Done.
04:00:10 <offby1> rudybot: (no-parens 'hey 'you 'lookit 'me 'whee)
04:00:10 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: "here's x: (hey you lookit me whee)"
04:00:26 <offby1> _all_ the arguments are collected into a list, and bound to x
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04:01:05 <covi> like what happens to the vararg in the dotted pair notation?
04:04:36 <offby1> Try It And See.
04:17:53 <taylanub> covi: Cheapest way to implement `list' is (define list (lambda x x)). :P
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04:22:03 <taylanub> And yeah, (define <pair> ...) is equivalent to (define <car-of-pair> (lambda <cdr-of-pair> ...)).
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10:29:03 <pjb> taylanub: could you expand your "..."s?
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11:08:46 <jozefg> Is there anyone here who could evaluate this call/cc explanation?
11:09:39 <snowylike> just post it, maybe someone will do that
11:10:09 <jozefg> Alright thank you
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11:12:14 <jozefg> http://www.dannygratzer.com/2013/01/call-cc-in-scheme-and-haskell.html
11:16:02 <snowylike> what exactly is the problem?
11:16:54 <jozefg> I was just looking for someone to let me know if any parts are unclear or confusing, it's hard to evaluate my own writing
11:18:18 <snowylike> Nothing confusing, but misleading
11:18:28 <snowylike> your title says you'd show examples in haskell
11:18:31 <snowylike> but there are none?
11:18:40 <jozefg> I'm writing the haskell portion currently
11:18:57 <jozefg> They'll be a link to it once I finish
11:19:02 <snowylike> k
11:19:40 <jozefg> Do you ever use Haskell?
11:22:07 <DerGuteMoritz> jozefg: "parallel computations" is a bit misleading
11:22:57 <DerGuteMoritz> also, you should probably consistently spell call-cc as call/cc
11:24:13 <DerGuteMoritz> (brb)
11:24:46 <jozefg> DerGuteMoritz: Does "Possible computations" make more sense?
11:24:59 <DerGuteMoritz> hmmm
11:25:33 <DerGuteMoritz> maybe just say coroutines :-)
11:28:03 <DerGuteMoritz> ok brb now!
11:28:57 <jozefg> Pausible sorry, too early to be typing here
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12:55:09 <shrey> Learning lisp. Stuck at a basic problem. Would appreciate a little help - http://codepad.org/MsWAIIgL
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13:04:11 <asumu> shrey: what are you stuck on? I'm guessing that you are having problems with `define`, which is not like `=` or `:=` in other languages.
13:04:29 <pjb> shrey: since you didn't ask a question, we didn't answer.
13:05:09 <Tau> could someone provide me an explanation on (2 . 3)?
13:05:28 <pjb> It is read as a cons cell with 2 in the car slot and 3 in the cdr slot.
13:05:34 <pjb> It's a "pair".
13:05:49 <shrey> pjb: Sorry about that. It was a little hard for me to frame the question. So, I'm trying to assign the value to the result of a 'cond'. Is that possible with define ?
13:06:05 <pjb> No, it is not.
13:06:40 <pjb> There's no notion of places in scheme (unlike in Common Lisp), so you cannot do (set! (cond (c1 v1) (c2 v2) (else v3)) 42).
13:07:12 <pjb> You have to write: (cond (c1 (set! v1 42)) (c2 (set! v2 42)) (else (set! v3 42)))
13:07:17 <Tau>  pjb samething with append?
13:07:32 <Tau>  pjb oh. nevermind.
13:07:33 <pjb> Tau: why not reading a tutorial?
13:07:42 <Tau>  pjb i'm.
13:07:43 <pjb> Tau: what's the problem?
13:07:58 <Tau>  pjb i was going to ask why it is not like clisp.
13:08:02 <Tau> about shrey question.
13:08:04 <pjb> Tau: this is very basic.  There are cons cells, with two slots (car . cdr).
13:08:26 <pjb> We use those cons cells to build linked lists, by putting an element in the car, and the rest of the list in the cdr.
13:08:28 <asumu> shrey: more generally though, I don't think you either need or want to use set! here.
13:08:34 <pjb> (1 . (2 . ())
13:08:35 <asumu> (or mutation in general)
13:08:38 <Tau>  pjb sure. i was interested in the way of how its implemented in scheme.
13:08:46 <pjb> There's this special value noted () which represents the empty list.
13:09:08 <pjb> Tau: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
13:09:09 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/ytswyk
13:09:21 <pjb> This book explaines how to implement a scheme.
13:09:28 <Tau> great.
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13:09:51 <pjb> But basically: (defstruct cons car cdr)
13:10:21 <shrey> Thank you pjb. At least got rid of the syntax problem Will dig in.
13:10:21 <pjb> But basically: (defstruct (cons (:constructor cons (car cdr)) (:conc-name nil)) car cdr)
13:10:29 <pjb> shrey: ok.
13:10:40 <pjb> Tau: assuming you're implementing a cons in Common Lisp :-)
13:11:04 <pjb> Tau: of course if you implemented it in C, it would rather be something like: typedef struct { object* car; object* cdr; } cons;
13:11:04 <Tau>  pjb i'm not. but i was interested in the philosophical implications of having 'cons' defined as it is.
13:11:18 <Tau> although i plan to implement lisp in c ahead.
13:11:47 <pjb> Tau: at the beginning of the web there was a very interesting site explaining the philosophical implication of the existance.
13:11:52 <pjb> I mean it's directly related.
13:12:04 <shrey> asumu: Since I have to set the value of least (in my example) to the least value after comparison, I was trying to assign the return value of the condition.
13:12:31 <pjb> Starting from void, we infer that something must exist, the 1.  And From the 1, we deduce that there must be a binarity.  Hence the cons.  And everything's built from there.
13:13:03 <Tau>  pjb sure.
13:13:23 <pjb> (define (lowest x y z) (if (< x y) (if (< z x) z x) (if (< z y) z y)))
13:14:04 <pjb> Tau: but reading AIM-8 could help.  http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
13:14:04 <Tau>  pjb but why does cons return a '(1 2 3) when i do (cons 1 '(2 3)) and it returns (1 . 2) when i do (cons 1 2)? shouldn't there exist other procedure to build data structure like (1 . 2)?
13:14:05 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/bgrktwc
13:14:15 <pjb> Tau: cons returns a cons!
13:14:35 <pjb> try: (cons?  (cons 1 '(2 3)))  (car  (cons 1 '(2 3)))  (cdr  (cons 1 '(2 3)))
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13:15:17 <pjb> Tau: now, since we use cons cells to build lists, and since lisp is a list processing language, it's natural that a function such as print (or display) prints chains of conses as lists.
13:15:46 <pjb> It is actually print that skips the dots and parentheses around the rest.
13:15:53 <pjb> But the cons cells are there.
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13:16:44 <Tau> pjb sure.
13:16:44 <pjb> (define (list . args) (if (null args) '() (cons (car args) (apply list (cdr args)))))
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13:17:27 <Tau> i get it.
13:17:34 <pjb> So you see that (list 1 2 3) is actually the same as (cons 1 (list 2 3)) which is the same as (cons 1 (cons 2 '()))
13:17:53 <pjb>  (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
13:18:18 <Tau> pjb when i try (cons? '(1 2)) it gives me an error.
13:18:22 <Tau> i'm using mit-scheme.
13:18:58 <Tau> apparently there is no such a procedure/function named cons?
13:19:07 <Tau> in the env.
13:19:40 <Tau>  pjb but yeah. i get the idea.
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13:21:14 <Tau> (i'm very new to scheme. i'm in the beginning of the boook yet, so, excuse me all possible idiot commentaries :).
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13:30:14 <Tau>  pjb have you implemented some scheme interpreter/compiler?
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13:33:55 <LeoNerd> pair?
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13:33:58 <zolk3ri> hi
13:33:59 <pyro-> Tau: you where looking for (pair? '(1 2))
13:34:04 <pyro-> :D bet me LeoNerd
13:34:11 <hammond> hi
13:34:16 <zolk3ri> yeah where are you looking for (pair? '(1 2))
13:34:25 <hammond> I'm trying to learn scheme
13:34:28 <LeoNerd> r5?
13:34:30 <hammond> any good books?
13:34:32 <zolk3ri> loool
13:34:38 <zolk3ri> I'm trying to learn common lisp any good books?
13:34:39 <hammond> hi
13:34:40 <LeoNerd> rudybot: (pair? '(1 2))
13:34:41 <rudybot> LeoNerd: your sandbox is ready
13:34:41 <rudybot> LeoNerd: ; Value: #t
13:34:49 <zolk3ri> I'm currently playing LOL
13:34:50 <LeoNerd> This is #scheme, not #cl
13:35:09 <zolk3ri> ohh come on don't be so strict it's not perl, you don't have to use strict.
13:35:33 <hammond> hi
13:35:44 <zolk3ri> hammond:  he already told you
13:35:49 <hammond> does anyone know of a great scheme book?
13:35:52 <hammond> uhm.
13:35:54 <Tau>  pyro- i see.
13:36:00 <Tau>  pyro- so it is named pain? not cons? right?
13:36:02 <Tau> good.
13:36:19 <Tau>  LeoNerd is rudybot your bot?
13:36:47 <LeoNerd> Nope. Not sure whose it is. It's the channel's repl bot
13:37:02 <hammond> hi
13:37:08 <hammond> does anyone know?
13:37:13 <Tau>  LeoNerd cool.
13:37:14 <hammond>  pyro?
13:37:19 <Tau>  hammond pjb might now.
13:37:27 <Tau> know*
13:37:27 <hammond> pjb-v;?
13:37:34 <Tau>  pjb
13:38:19 <hammond> pjb hi, do you know of a book that is agreeable in learning me the language which is called scheme?
13:39:06 <hammond> pjb does scheme come with books? cookbooks etc. I'm trying to make an amazon list here.
13:39:15 <pjb> How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
13:39:34 <pjb> a lot of books and other resources at http://www.schemers.org/
13:39:45 <hammond> oh ok thanks.
13:39:49 <pjb> It's in the /topic
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13:40:18 <hammond> oh yes, I see it more clearer now, or more schemer.
13:40:34 <pjb> Tau: I've implemented bits CL or scheme interpreters or compilers.  Eventually I may have a whole implementation, I hope.
13:40:51 <hammond> pjb I'm still confused about these two languages. Lisp and Scheme
13:41:01 <pjb> Tau: right, in scheme it's not called cons? it's called pair?
13:41:07 <hammond> I mean common lisp, do you have any insights?
13:41:26 <Tau>  pjb sure.
13:41:29 <hammond> I heard common lisp is slightly better. well in execution.
13:41:32 <pjb> Tau: they thought it was more pedagogical to call  cons cells returned by the function cons  "pairs".
13:41:37 <carleastlund> pjb, in Scheme the predicate is called pair?, yes.  Although some Schemes do define cons? as well.
13:41:42 <hammond> slightly better than scheme*
13:42:00 <pjb> hammond: I prefer CL, but it is good to know both CL, emacs lisp and scheme.
13:42:12 <Tau>  pjb can't scheme be faced as a commercial language in some aspects?
13:42:20 <Tau> is it strictly pedagofical?
13:42:21 <pjb> It let you do things like: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
13:42:22 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/b83v39z
13:42:23 <carleastlund> hammond, there are some very good compilers for both Common Lisp and Scheme, if you're talking performance.  I know Chez Scheme's commercial compiler is quite excellent.
13:42:43 <pjb> Tau: oh sure, it can be and is used productively too.
13:43:16 <pjb> Pascal was designed as a pedagogical programming language too.  That didn't prevent Apple to write the MacOS ToolBox in Pascal!
13:43:23 <hammond> oh well that does sound interesting, so you can testify that scheme is near useless pjb? seeing as how Scheme is not your favorite environment, pjb.
13:43:33 <hammond> carleastlund: I see.
13:43:50 <hammond> I still dont understand why I should learn them all.
13:43:55 <Tau> pjb do you hang on #c?
13:44:00 <pjb> hammond: you should abandon computing and go to journalism.  You clearly have great disposition to be in the news business
13:44:06 <pjb> Tau: nope.
13:44:08 <hammond> this isnt like pokemon right pjb, like you have to catch them all.
13:44:08 <carleastlund> hammond, what you "should" learn is up to you, it depends on what you want to know.
13:44:19 <hammond> pjb wtf did you say?
13:45:02 <pjb> You're distorting what I'm saying.
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13:45:52 <pjb> I won't testify that scheme is near useless.
13:46:14 <pjb> hammond: you could them all to have fun?
13:46:29 <pjb> emacs lisp to customize emacs, Common Lisp and Scheme to write programs.
13:46:32 <hammond> Are you saying I should leave this magnificent trade and go do something as useless as journalism, or philosophy? are you calling me dumb pjb? like I'm incapable of doing maths? because as far as I know only the people who are scared of maths go to become a prominent journalist or a scholarly philosopher.
13:46:51 *carleastlund* tiptoes out of the channel
13:46:58 <Tau> i wonder why the heck ppl didnt use scheme or common lisp to customize emacs.
13:47:12 <hammond> Just because I didnt understand one concept,
13:47:24 <hammond> what kind of support are you people offering here.
13:47:37 <hammond> you are one stingy fellow pjb.
13:48:06 <hammond> degrading people who are unknowledgable in something, we are all at one stage!
13:48:22 <hammond> I feel mad now! I want to read something!
13:49:21 *hammond* is used to read things when he has been impaled by injustice in society.
13:49:37 <pjb> hammond: Well, I've watched Yes, Prime Minister 2x02 Official Secrets yesterday evening
13:50:04 <pjb> How can you think that I would testify that scheme is near useless from what I wrote here?
13:50:12 <Tau>  pjb you said you implemented a scheme.
13:50:17 <Tau>  pjb can i take a look at it?
13:50:38 Dmitry [d4dc614b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.220.97.75] has joined #scheme
13:50:42 <Dmitry> hi
13:50:44 <hammond> stingy folk cant program.
13:50:49 <Dmitry> (define (transpose mat) (apply map list mat))
13:50:55 <pjb> Tau: for the good reason that works on GNU emacs were started before scheme was a serrious language (r5rs came much later), and before CL was standardized (which occured at the late date of 1994).
13:50:57 <Dmitry> how work apply?
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13:51:35 <pjb> r5rs apply
13:52:03 <Tau>  pjb isn't there a way to change it?
13:52:09 <pjb> (apply map list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) is like (map list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
13:52:10 <C-Keen> also that transpose is probably missing some parenthesis
13:52:29 <Tau> like some emacs listp to scheme tool? like it happens with py2topy3?
13:52:30 <pjb> Tau: there are emacsen written in CL.  The most usable nowadays is Hemlock.
13:52:40 <pjb> Tau: it's available in Clozure CL, and separately in quicklisp.
13:52:47 <Tau>  pjb hemlock is written in what?
13:52:52 <pjb> CL
13:52:57 <C-Keen> common lisp
13:53:04 <Tau> pjb is there something like an editor written in scheme?
13:53:11 <pjb> A lot of them.
13:53:12 <C-Keen> edwin
13:53:15 <hammond> and pjb, dear sir, what kinds of programatic designs have you made in scheme?
13:53:23 <pjb> Again use google or http://www.schemers.org/
13:53:44 <ft> Also, the guile folks work on having guile be able to interpret elisp... which would then open the door for scheme too.
13:53:51 <pjb> Well I've written mostly small programs in scheme. When I started to write real code, I switched to CL.
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13:54:07 <hammond> lool
13:54:25 <Tau> wtf
13:54:27 <hammond> pjb are you making AI stuff?
13:54:47 <pjb> The problem was I was learning the language, and each time I tried to touch it it happened to be on a different computer with a different scheme implementation, and everything was different.  When I happened on Common Lisp, the next time the different implementation implemented the same Common Lisp language, so I could make progress faster.
13:54:52 <Tau> pjb you make scheme look like shit when you say something like that.
13:55:00 <Tau> i myself got a bit uninterested about scheme.
13:55:03 <pjb> hammond: as much as I can sell it.
13:55:06 <Tau> im thinking now to switch to cl.
13:55:40 <pjb> Well, I guess the same could be said about perl, php, python  or ruby.
13:55:49 <hammond> i see.
13:55:53 <Tau> jesus christ, why are there so many lisp things out there
13:55:55 <pjb> I mean, You have to have 3 of 4 versions of python installed on your system to run your programs.
13:56:13 <Tau> pjb yeah. in that sense.
13:56:17 <Tau> its equivalent i guess.
13:56:22 <pjb> Yesterday, I spent half an hour trying to understand why I couldn't load mercurial from python repl when hg obviously worked nicely.
13:56:46 <pjb> Well, sure, different pythons, different installation directories, etc.
13:58:24 <hammond> This list of scheme books seem expensive.
13:59:35 <hammond> this exceeds the size of my dowry
14:00:04 <hammond> And I dont like to buy 2nd hand books, full of snot and god knows what other liquids.
14:00:17 <hammond> I cant learn scheme like this.
14:00:32 <C-Keen> some of them are available online
14:00:47 <C-Keen> HtDP, SCIP and others
14:01:06 <hammond> ok
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14:04:22 <pjb> hammond: at least, with newspapers, you tend to get a pristine new one every morning, no body fluid risk at all.
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14:06:37 <snowylike> i don't understand why people see the multitude of "lisps" as a problem
14:06:38 <hammond> you wish your fellow human being a great ill I can see this. journalism.
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14:07:22 <hammond> "hi I'm a journalism of such and such, I dont know math, but I sure know how to make questions."
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14:08:45 <snowylike> now you're just depreciating journalism
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14:10:59 <hammond> snowylike: they aren't good at remembering peoples names and can't do math. same with like philosophers.
14:11:28 <snowylike> you're lumping bad journalists together with good ones
14:11:39 <pjb> Which good one?
14:12:26 <snowylike> I'm not exactly following the current journalistic trends - but have you looked, for example, at newspapers around 1960-1970?
14:12:51 <snowylike> what i'm trying to say is
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14:13:18 <snowylike> that a generalization like that isn't necessarily true
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14:19:39 <pjb> snowylike: so you mean good journalists are dead journalists?
14:20:20 <snowylike> maybe there are no good journalists now, but that is not an intrinsic feature of journalism
14:20:57 <pjb> snowylike: it is, when you can travel to the countries to see by yourself, or when you have internet to fetch the original documents yourself.
14:21:17 <pjb> cf. Tartarin de Tarascon
14:21:54 <snowylike> journalism is more than just saying what happened, good journalistic works include thoughtful analyses, contexts and such
14:22:10 <pjb> Who as the time and money for that?
14:22:15 <pjb> has
14:22:51 *pjb* will bbl
14:23:00 <snowylike> that may be the problem, but that is hardly one that only journalistic work faces
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16:27:59 <Tau> which one of you use mit-scheme?
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16:55:15 <offby1> don't all speak up at once
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17:55:17 <spobat> I, sometimes.
17:55:18 <spobat> :p
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18:56:49 <taylanub> pjb: Excuse me ?
18:56:58 <taylanub> Oh
18:58:49 <taylanub> I claimed (define <pair> ...) = (define <car-of-pair> (lambda <cdr-of-pair> ...))
19:00:29 <taylanub> I guess the ellipsis would each be a <body> as defined in the formal language ?
19:01:05 <taylanub> Or is there an option that makes my claim false ?
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19:04:10 <taylanub> (My usage of <pair> and <car-of-pair> were informal I guess; from what I see the standards don't even mention s-expression syntax and that Scheme code is written in them.)
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22:28:43 <taylanub> (What was wingo spamming ?)
22:29:30 *taylanub* opens mailbox, wall of e-mails from Wingo from scheme-reports. :D
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23:02:20 *offby1* thinks that proper grammar demands "wingo be spammin"
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23:29:13 <taylanub> The standards generally don't use the word "undefined," do they ?  I see there's mention of some mathematically undefined values, and in the explanation of letrec, but there seems to be no general meaning like that of "unspecified."
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23:46:07 <drewc> taylanub: does ANSI Common Lisp count as a standard?
23:47:26 *drewc* just saw 'undefined' and since that is used often in CLHS, figured he'd comment here before 'C-x b' to my next IRC buffer :)
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23:50:49 <taylanub> Oh I meant the Scheme standards specifically.
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23:54:32 <drewc> well, I only know of r5rs in general, which does not use it specifically (save for LETREC where <this could have been called anything>) and does not have a definition of it that is related to scheme... afaik
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