00:03:18 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 00:07:53 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:29 -!- spobat_ [~spobat@p5DC77283.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:01 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 00:20:46 spobat [~spobat@p5DC77283.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:02 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:39:23 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:38 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:00 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:58:52 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 01:12:30 chaotic_good1 [~g@pool-173-60-201-49.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:30 -!- chaotic_good [~g@pool-173-60-201-49.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:38:07 amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-173-178.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:23 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@host-92-26-175-150.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43:30 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:49:45 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:12 -!- ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:51 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5DC77283.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:08 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@77.221.28.28] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:57:14 FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has joined #scheme 02:06:45 scheme!!! 02:06:54 more pwoerful than any ruby!!! 02:09:07 Ruby has call/cc, although I think it's depreciated 02:09:12 I like continuations 02:09:24 Although delimited continuations are better according to Oleg than call/cc 02:09:48 oh? 02:10:08 paul graham mentioned faking continuations with closures 02:10:17 I am not schooled enuf to know what that even means. 02:11:30 http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 02:11:44 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:00 Able to leap tall pythons with a single bound! 02:15:44 chaotic_good1, Oleg likes continuations, just not continuations that represent the entire rest of the program, and thus do not return 02:16:57 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:17:16 Such continuations will be added to R7RS-large. 02:17:48 Cool 02:18:02 Hmm, is Racket likely to support R7RS-Large? 02:18:12 No idea. 02:18:21 The ways of the Racketeers are a mystery to me. 02:18:37 There certainly is no technical reason why not. 02:18:42 hmm 02:19:19 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 02:19:38 http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html this is good 02:19:47 who would want the whole program? 02:19:59 you want a piece right? 02:20:01 hmmm 02:20:11 beyond my level 02:20:14 I gota level up!! 02:22:29 does any of this help scheme programs use 8 cpu machines? 02:22:41 perhaps by using epoll or kqueue 02:22:42 ? 02:40:41 is there a scheme CMS lying around? I heard one guy say he made one.. 03:13:37 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:14:02 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #scheme 03:14:03 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:14:28 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has joined #scheme 03:16:30 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 03:18:45 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:25:35 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has joined #scheme 03:26:21 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:28:17 adu_ [~ajr@pool-108-28-107-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:00 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:53:26 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@208.102.188.65] has joined #scheme 03:59:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:59:47 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 04:06:01 -!- FunkyDrummer [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-21-70.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:09:09 grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-29-70.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:27:48 jozefg [~quassel@72-254-40-196.client.stsn.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:56 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-24-12-144-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 04:42:23 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:48:14 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:52:58 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:01:54 -!- chaotic_good1 [~g@pool-173-60-201-49.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:02:23 chaotic_good [~g@pool-173-60-201-49.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:32 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 05:19:54 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 05:23:01 miql [~miql@98.165.235.27] has joined #scheme 05:24:19 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:31:06 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-108-28-107-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 05:31:08 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:33 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #scheme 05:35:34 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 05:36:31 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:46:26 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #scheme 06:09:13 -!- miql [~miql@98.165.235.27] has left #scheme 06:12:38 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:14:16 Sgeo_ [~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:14:32 Apparently there was a debate about whether to keep multiple value return? Where can I read about that? 06:21:51 A serious debate? 06:22:53 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD948F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23:10 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:23:10 taylanub [tub@p4FD948F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:23:26 Sgeo_: The discussion within the RnRS committee was here: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-mail/rrrs.mail08.gz 06:23:45 search for subject "multiple return values" 06:26:17 hmm 06:27:32 -!- jozefg [~quassel@72-254-40-196.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:18 -!- grettke [~grettke@cpe-65-30-29-70.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:50:44 youlysses-ao [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:52:04 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:17 bniels [~niels@p4FD6FBFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:25:41 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:46:57 mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 07:49:06 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has joined #scheme 07:58:18 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:17:58 Is that legitimately from '87 ? 08:25:36 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #scheme 08:49:37 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:55:33 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:59:23 apeman_ [~apeman@106.245.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #scheme 08:59:43 what are user-friendly IDEs or editors for MIT-scheme? 08:59:57 e.g. can i use mit-scheme in dr racket? 09:04:38 -!- apeman_ [~apeman@106.245.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has left #scheme 09:06:41 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:05 amoe_ 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15:56:47 burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:57:16 Hey, I'm trying to do something like this in Scheme http://pastebin.com/6WEknUMV . 15:57:37 But I want to avoid boilerplate getting and explicity naming the elements of the structure as arguments to functions. 15:58:12 I think maybe smoething like treating a binding as a first class citizen and then 'applying' it to the local scope is what I want. 16:00:50 jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has joined #scheme 16:02:22 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:08:58 I know that CL and probably some Scheme implementations have `destructuring-bind' which can also be used directly for function argument lists, but no idea if it can destructure structs too (normally does conses). 16:09:58 E.g. (defun foo (arg1 (arg2 arg3)) ...) can be applied to '(value1 (value2 value3)). 16:10:41 Gotcha. 16:10:48 That's interesting. 16:10:50 but then you still have to name them for each function 16:11:43 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:12:10 True, it would only eliminate (or hide) getter calls. 16:12:56 I think something like this will give me more or less what I want. 16:12:57 http://pastebin.com/eDqNRSKy 16:13:34 Still get the problem with the function arguments though. 16:13:35 Hm 16:13:53 burrows: you could use parameters like that http://pastebin.com/yL1dyDcA 16:14:04 as in SRFI 39 parameters 16:16:25 (untested) 16:16:34 (but now I tested it and it seems to work hehe) 16:17:11 Give me a sec, don't really understand what that does yet. 16:17:35 -!- rapacity [~rapacity@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:51 (BTW I'm pretty sure that the total elimination of argument names is impossible with standard hygienic macros; it's unhygienic in nature. Correct me.) 16:18:08 What about doing something like... 16:18:13 (define a (+ x y z)) 16:18:19 Where z y z are lazily binded. 16:18:29 taylanub: see my example, you just need to define the arguments in the outer scope 16:18:44 burrows: that's not how Scheme evaluation works 16:18:50 Like composing a function body and local argument bindings together. 16:18:52 lol okay. 16:19:00 Let me try to understand your code. 16:19:09 rapacity [~rapacity@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 16:19:23 bindings need to be lexically introduced somehow before referring to them 16:19:27 DerGuteMoritz: That requires the use of fluids though, right ? 16:19:41 Hrm .. set! would do too actually, wouldn't it ? 16:19:43 taylanub: SRFI 39 parameters in my case, fluid-let would also work but not be thread-safe usually 16:19:57 Oh, I thought parameters = fluids. 16:21:06 ah I just checked, the semantics of parameters + threads are not specified in the SRFI 16:21:39 anyhow, with fluid-let you rebind regular variables whereas with parameters you get procedures which you need to call in order to get their bound value 16:22:09 oh and SRFI 15 (which defines fluid-let) is withdrawn whereas SRFI 39 is not 16:23:29 DerGuteMoritz: How is that different than just making the data I want to pass a global variable? 16:24:32 Hmm I guess because you can still pass args. 16:24:34 k I think. 16:26:16 burrows: well, x-lambda gives you a lambda to which you can pass an instance of your record 16:26:40 and inside that lambda, the parameters a, b, and c are then bound to that record's respective slots 16:29:01 I currently can't figure out why parameterize is preferred over fluid-let, but I'm very tired. 16:30:08 -!- jozefg [~quassel@72-254-57-174.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:31:18 Now I see, reading about fluid-let made it more clear. 16:35:56 burrows: I would use a general pattern matcher such as Alex Shinn's as a destructuring bind. 16:37:03 burrows: I would avoid fluids (or parameters) when they can be reasonably avoided. Fluids interact badly with lazy evaluation. 16:38:27 Gotcha. 16:38:40 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:55 match even can destructure records 16:41:02 only all slots though IIRC 16:41:11 and you need to specify them in order as defined in the record 16:41:21 which is why I never use that feature :-( 16:41:52 With an implementation-specific non-hygienic macro system one could abstract that. 16:42:05 yes, that's the alternative .. 16:42:15 I would discourage that though 16:42:23 but there may be valid uses I guess! 16:44:23 ah I'm mistaken, you don't need to specify *all* slots with match's $ 16:44:30 but they need to be in order as defined 16:45:53 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 16:46:01 Can't _ or so be used for "pass" ? 16:46:29 ;;> The special identifier @scheme{_} matches anything, no matter how 16:46:29 ;;> many times it is used, and does not bind the result in the body. 16:47:58 sure but you still need to know the exact order in which the slots are defined 16:47:59 So yes; the problem is just that the matching is done positionally and not based on the names of the fields of the record. 16:48:05 and the count, of course 16:48:05 Indeed. 16:48:32 If Alex Shinn's 'match' doesn't do the job wanted, it's easy enough to make a different matcher that works somewhat differently. 16:48:47 yep 16:48:57 no wait, it's actually forbidden to do that! 16:48:57 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:49:13 One that matches records based on field names would be desirable .. anyway, I gotta run. 16:49:27 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:08 the problem is if you allow the fields to be listed in any order, then you need to either list the field names separately from the bound variable names, or force the bound variable names to be the same as the field names. 16:53:19 indeed, it's a trade-off 16:55:10 burrows: another option is to make a special-purpose destructuring-bind for each record type that you want to access easily, which works like follows. Consider a 3d-vector that has fields x y z. 16:55:45 (define (with-3d-vector v p) (p (get-x v) (get-y v) (get-z v))) 16:55:51 usage example: 16:56:21 (define (negate-3d-vector v) (with-3d-vector v (lambda (x y z) (3d-vector (- x) (- y) (- z))))) 16:56:38 and you could define a macro to hide the 'lambda' if you prefer. 16:56:46 Hmmm I see. 16:58:06 That's basically what I have right now. 16:58:26 But I don't like it because each function that I want to apply the arguments to I have too explicity list the parameters. 16:58:41 Which means 100+ changes everytime I update the structure. 16:58:58 you could use keyword arguments instead 16:59:05 if your scheme implementation has them 16:59:19 Hold on, let me read about them. 16:59:31 burrows: you want to avoid listing the names (x y z), but have it use those names implicitly? 16:59:47 Yes. 16:59:49 burrows: if so, what do you do when you need to open up two different structures? 16:59:52 That's exactly what I want 16:59:55 (of the same type) 17:00:39 That case shouldn't arise. 17:00:46 Basically the structure represents the state. 17:00:55 okay. the syntax-case macro system allows you to break hygiene in a controlled way, such that you could implicitly bind the names x y z within the macro. 17:01:30 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 17:01:32 Always good to wear the seatbelt in a high speed colllision. 17:01:33 for example, using 'with-3d-vector' as I defined above, here's a macro to bind the names (x y z) without explicitly listing them: 17:02:17 burrows: using DSSSL keyword arguments: (define (with-3d-vector v p) (p x: (get-x v) y: (get-y v) z: (get-z v))) 17:02:21 kuribas [~user@94-227-88-230.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:02:33 burrows: then (with-3d-vector (make-3d-vector 1 2 3) (lambda (#!key y z) (list y z))) => (1 2) 17:02:35 adiii [~adityavit@c-76-117-52-187.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:41 err 17:02:42 (2 3) 17:03:43 You're still basically listing parameters with (#!key y z) ? 17:03:54 right but their order is irrelevant 17:03:59 and you can skip those you don't need 17:04:06 Gotcha. 17:04:09 That is a step up. 17:04:27 (define-syntax with-xyz (lambda (form) (syntax-case form () ((with-xyz vec body ...) (with-syntax ((x (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'x)) (y (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'y)) (z (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'z))) #'(with-3d-vector vec (lambda (x y z) body ...))))))) 17:04:29 mark_weaver is preparing an unhygienic solution which I would consider as the last resort 17:04:33 aah there we go 17:04:41 -!- graememcc [~chatzilla@host86-163-183-87.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0.1/20121129165506]] 17:04:44 (sorry for the lack of formatting :) 17:04:52 hehe, we need multiline irc 17:06:18 Here's an attempt at multiline: 17:06:19 (define-syntax with-xyz 17:06:19 (lambda (form) 17:06:22 (syntax-case form () 17:06:25 ((with-xyz vec body ...) 17:06:25 (with-syntax ((x (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'x)) 17:06:28 (y (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'y)) 17:06:31 (z (datum->syntax #'with-xyz 'z))) 17:06:36 #'(with-3d-vector vec (lambda (x y z) body ...))))))) 17:06:40 (looks indented in my client, but maybe not in yours) 17:07:01 Hygiene is something we value greatly in Scheme? 17:07:24 I'd say so, yes 17:09:43 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 17:09:45 using Chicken's ir-macros: 17:09:47 we certainly value it, yes, but that doesn't mean that there's never a case where it should be bent. 17:09:48 (define-syntax with-xyz (ir-macro-transformer (lambda (form i c) (match-let (((_ vec body ...) form)) `(with-3d-vector ,vec (lambda ,(list (i 'x) (i 'y) (i 'z)) . ,body)))))) 17:11:01 sometimes there's no good solution, and one is justified in finding the least bad solution. 17:12:39 in this case, one should consider the kinds of hygiene-related bugs that might happen. in general, there are two kinds of hygiene bugs: (1) a macro uses a standard identifier (e.g. 'lambda') that is rebound to something else at the macro-use site. you won't have that problem with proper 'syntax-case' macros such as this one. 17:13:49 (2) an unhygienically-introduced identifier (e.g. x y z in this case) accidentially captures some other binding at the macro-use site that you didn't want to capture. this might actually bite you some day with this approach. 17:13:50 (FTR: the same is true with the ir-macro above) 17:14:41 another option could be to have another macro with which you declare what bindings with-xyz should expand to 17:15:01 like (declare-xyz-vars x y z) 17:15:15 so consider this: you write the following code: (define (vecmag v) (with-xyz (sqrt (+ (* x x) (* y y) (* z z))))) 17:15:33 now you add another field to this structure named 'sqrt'. 17:15:53 that would break 'vecmag', because suddently 'sqrt' is no longer what it thought it was. 17:16:05 Gotcha. 17:16:17 that's a strained example, of course, because you'd be unlikely to name a field 'sqrt', but in general it is a real danger. 17:16:37 Alright, I think I'm going to go with the unhygienic macro, since this is a personal project, but I need to let my brain untangle itself. 17:16:42 Thanks for the help fellas. 17:16:49 okay, happy hacking! 17:17:20 ddp [~ddp@93.182.174.88] has joined #scheme 17:18:06 -!- ddp [~ddp@93.182.174.88] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:21 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-84-206.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:19 mark_weaver: great example 17:24:01 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-235-27.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:09 a better example would be something like this: (define (scale-vec m v) (with-xyz (3d-vector (* m x) (* m y) (* m z)))) 17:24:33 wait you still need to pass v to with-xyz 17:24:41 now if a new field 'm' is added to the struct and 'with-xyz' is modified to bind 'm', then it will break. 17:24:52 DerGuteMoritz: that's right.. my mistake. 17:24:53 yeah, that seems more likely! 17:26:32 -!- burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:26:47 rins [~aaron@75-149-129-85-Connecticut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:10 samth [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:27:10 -!- samth [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] 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has joined #scheme 19:08:53 which type of int does scheme use? 19:09:01 don't they have upper limits? 19:09:11 spobat: no, they don't 19:09:17 I wonder as (* 1000000000000000000000000000 10000000000000000000) still gives a sensitive result 19:09:27 sensible* 19:09:32 Sounds quite plausible 19:09:39 okay, thanks 19:09:55 jozefg [~quassel@72-254-57-174.client.stsn.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:14 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:12:25 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:58 pjb`` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:14:59 -!- pjb`` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:57 -!- pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:10 pjb`` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 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[~t@AMontsouris-651-1-212-120.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:59 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:07 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:38:37 lo 19:38:54 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:38:54 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:03 spobat: You can also do exact division; absolutely no rounding errors. It's just slow and/or memory intensive (frankly I don't know the details). 19:39:49 Kind of neat that this is a core feature of scheme while you rarely ever hear of it in other languages. Could arguably also be because you nearly never need it, though. 19:40:12 exact division? 19:40:27 How can you do this if you can't represent certain numbers exactly in binary? 19:42:27 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #scheme 19:42:48 well, how would you divide sqrt(2) by sqrt(2)? 19:43:34 spobat: You actually can. 19:43:38 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:38 taylanub, are all divisions made by / like this? 19:43:43 / how to enable / do it? 19:44:07 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 19:44:08 berndj [~berndj@dsl-185-146-61.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:44:44 Heh, I don't even know really. Gotta use Scheme more often. :( 19:45:05 But entering (/ 5 2) in guile gives me the output 5/2. 19:45:28 Well you can call exact? on a value to see if it's exact. 19:46:02 Not sure if the standard mandates / to be exact, but in guile it apparently is. 19:46:13 from R5RS: "A number is exact if it was written as an exact constant or was derived from exact numbers using only exact operations. A number is inexact if it was written as an inexact constant, if it was derived using inexact ingredients, or if it was derived using inexact operations." 19:46:23 taylanub, you could try / 5 pi 19:46:41 it gives me 1.5915494309189535 19:46:46 (instead of a endless list :P ) 19:46:51 "list" 19:47:17 pi is an inexact number 19:49:39 though i suppose you could use one of the several representations of pi as a convergent series and only allow certain operations on that 19:49:54 but you'd have to implement a rather large subset of a CAS for that 19:50:16 okay 19:50:26 so all divisions, multiplications, add, sub are basically exact? 19:50:38 Not sure if the standard specifies that. 19:51:51 R5RS: "Implementations are encouraged, but not required, to support exact integers and exact rationals of practically unlimited size and precision, and to implement the above procedures and the / procedure in such a way that they always return exact results when given exact arguments. " 19:51:58 .. 19:52:00 sorry 19:52:01 mistyped 19:52:04 interesting find.. 19:52:12 1 second 19:52:37 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6559846/gasdg.PNG 19:53:31 0.01 is inexact I guess. 19:54:22 yes 19:54:44 btw, MIT/GNU-Scheme gives the same result 19:55:22 will r5rs scheme code run on r7rs? 19:55:26 afk - brb :D 19:55:59 Is the name `make-rectangular' historic, or what ? 19:56:53 if 0.01 is inexact, then, I assume, "exact constants" are numbers that are representable fully exact in binary 19:56:57 that's all the magic, then 19:57:02 spiderweb: I don't think there's any intention between the RnRS standards to guarantee backwards-compatibility. (Although they care about not going crazy with changes.) 19:57:05 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-108-28-107-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 19:57:11 ok 19:57:18 taylanub: no, it's one of two natural ways to represent complex numbers 19:57:47 kind of like the difference between cartesian coordinates and polar coordinates 19:58:38 hash_table [~quassel@5acb424b.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 20:10:45 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:34 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:04 Oh, there's `make-polar' as well, I see. 20:15:49 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:44 -!- hash_table [~quassel@5acb424b.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:54 -!- pjb```` is now known as pjb 20:23:45 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: "latuh"] 20:23:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-214.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:22 surrounder [~surrounde@95.96.32.26] has joined #scheme 20:26:30 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:28 pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:43:14 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@95.96.32.26] has quit [Quit: "latuh"] 20:50:22 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 21:01:58 -!- jozefg [~quassel@72-254-57-174.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:45 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:47 mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 21:13:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:13:10 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:17:41 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:18:49 mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 21:21:16 -!- mark_weaver [~user@c-98-217-64-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:28 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:21:45 mmc [~michal@178-85-64-28.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 21:24:48 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:27:39 Why does the standard not include quaternions ? Wouldn't it be trivial ? 21:28:00 the use-case for quaternions is, mostly, computer graphics 21:28:11 i think that's the reason why it isn't included 21:28:18 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:44 Aren't they acknowledged in maths as being "the" next step after complex numbers ? 21:29:07 they have certain problems 21:29:26 non-commutative 21:29:35 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 21:29:43 and even within mathematics, there isn't much use for quaternions 21:30:18 historically that's of course different, but well 21:30:30 i don't suppose you want the original maxwell equations? 21:31:02 I don't even know what that is. 21:31:40 The maxwell equations are the equations of classical electrodynamics 21:31:58 originally 28 coupled equations in as much variables, i think 21:32:06 nowadays 4 equations 21:32:14 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 21:32:15 (and much more elegant too) 21:32:24 nikola tesla 21:32:33 what about him? 21:32:50 maxwell equations remind me of him for some reason. 21:33:11 maybe because he was the first electrical engineer to "vote for" alternating current? 21:33:36 yeah 21:34:07 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:31 I just thought quaternions would be a trivial addition; I guess I was wrong then. 21:35:30 Non-commutativity would probably be an annoyance indeed. 21:35:41 only a computational annoyance 21:35:59 the thing is 21:36:34 the standard quite clearly is about the "lowest common denominator", if you remove something you remove expressiveness 21:36:43 (if you don't count r6rs) 21:37:08 rsuxrs? 21:37:58 well, i don't know why r6rs isn't that widely adopted 21:38:11 it has some very useful parts, if you ask me 21:39:20 I avoid r6rs rigorously at any cost, because it is against run time evaluation. 21:39:48 "against run time evaluation" ? 21:43:08 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:45:00 -!- pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Started wasting time elsewhere] 21:45:26 i suppose what pessoa wanted to say was 21:45:52 that there are parts of the r6rs standard that make it hard to do non-trivial evaluations at runtime 21:46:02 but don't ask me what parts those are 21:46:09 i'm not using r6rs either 21:50:42 Giomancer [~Gio@adsl-76-231-35-17.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:49 jao [~user@232.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:56 -!- jao [~user@232.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:56 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:03:29 -!- pdponze [~pierre@37.0.45.21] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:17 The point is that in lisp it's trivial to define quaternions and octonions, and to define +, -, *, / working on them. 22:04:35 Only, don't use cl:+, use highdimnums:+ 22:18:20 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:18:51 -!- chaotic_good [~g@pool-173-60-201-49.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 22:19:09 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:41 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-28-4.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:29:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:36:08 spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:28 -!- noam__ is now known as noam 22:57:05 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:09:03 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 23:18:06 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:32 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@78.35.175.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:34:18 -!- rins [~aaron@75-149-129-85-Connecticut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:34:19 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:35:23 spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:01 spobat_ [~spobat@p5DC77521.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:39 -!- spobat_ [~spobat@p5DC77521.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:31 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5B2DE17D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:51:47 spobat [~spobat@p5DC77521.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:27 amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-162-234.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:59 -!- spobat [~spobat@p5DC77521.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:57 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 23:55:39 spobat [~spobat@p5DC77521.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:24 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@host-89-243-12-26.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]