00:06:04 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:04 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:06:04 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 00:08:50 -!- huseby [~huseby@gateway/tor-sasl/huseby] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13:39 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18:32 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 00:19:37 -!- smiller [62ca1959@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.202.25.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:24:57 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.188.5] has quit [Quit: goodnight] 00:27:34 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:34 talifree [~talifree@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:31:56 -!- talifree is now known as tali713 00:33:47 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:27 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-154.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:07:08 masm [~masm@bl17-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 01:11:59 -!- eizu [~ez@184.Red-83-50-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: eizu] 01:12:35 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:14:26 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:15:19 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:16 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 01:20:20 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 01:20:35 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:29:27 huseby [~huseby@gateway/tor-sasl/huseby] has joined #scheme 01:43:32 -!- Ivo [~ivo@unaffiliated/ivoz] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 01:49:31 When might `usual' being a procedure useful (rather than being a special form)? 01:50:45 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:52:50 covi: I don't understand the question 01:54:53 aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-154.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:56:42 -!- bjz [~brendanza@CPE-124-185-85-160.lns9.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:04:20 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:07:02 lewis1711: I mean, what's the difference between `unless' being a special form and an ordinary procedure? 02:07:39 Gmind [~Deulamco@123.16.228.155] has joined #scheme 02:16:19 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-69-181-109-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:19:45 -!- aidalgol is now known as aidalmobile 02:19:55 -!- aidalmobile is now known as aidalgol 02:24:01 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-154.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:25:10 aidalgol [~user@114-134-8-154.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:28:07 covi: well I am only just learning macros, but since noone smarter is answering - macros rearrange identifiers, procedures can get the value of identifiers and do computations with them. say if you wanted to write a macro for, I don't know, converting a bunch of arguments to a vector, and called it "my-vector", you could do "(my-vector 1 2 3)", but you couldn't do (define xs '(1 2 3)) (my-vector xs) because all a macro can do is rearra 02:28:31 rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (my-vector args ...) (vector args ...)) 02:28:32 lewis1711: your sandbox is ready 02:28:32 lewis1711: Done. 02:28:37 rudybot: (my-vector 1 2 3) 02:28:37 lewis1711: ; Value: #(1 2 3) 02:28:44 rudybot: (define xs '(1 2 3)) 02:28:44 lewis1711: Done. 02:28:51 rudybot: (apply my-vector xs) 02:28:51 lewis1711: error: #:1:7: my-vector: use does not match pattern: (my-vector args ...) in: my-vector 02:28:57 does that make any sense? 02:29:23 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:30:55 Yes. But I can't come up with a concrete use case for unless. 02:49:01 Onionnion|Eee [~ryan@adsl-68-254-160-140.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:51 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:51:25 bjz [~brendanza@203-206-132-21.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:55:40 githogori [~githogori@c-69-181-109-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:58 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 03:02:34 -!- ijp [~user@host86-177-155-234.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: kill -9 brain] 03:06:58 covi: if `unless` was a procedure, it wouldn't work. 03:07:14 Gmind1 [~Deulamco@123.16.228.155] has joined #scheme 03:07:30 Namely because all the arguments to a procedure call are evaluated. 03:07:48 You don't want the body of `unless` to evaluate until the condition turns out to be false. 03:11:03 -!- Gmind [~Deulamco@123.16.228.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:15:06 -!- wbooze 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has joined #scheme 15:47:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:05 taylanub [tub@p4FD92179.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:01 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:11:43 shachaf [~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf] has joined #scheme 16:13:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@209-6-30-187.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:04 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:44 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:20:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-159-10.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:21:27 is sicp or htdp best for a beginner ? i know the VERY basic stuff like variables, loops etc. 16:22:28 Try 'em both; see which one you like better. 16:23:41 okey, do i need racket or can i use something like chicken or guile? 16:24:08 You'll probably be happier with Racket working through them. 16:24:16 how so? 16:24:45 it just look like a pain in the ass to install it compared to other implementations 16:28:21 SICP should work with anything 16:28:29 It doesn't use anything too fancy or advanced 16:29:09 okey thanks, ill start with sicp, i've also heard about The little schemer, is that one good too? 16:46:32 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:49:52 replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 16:50:17 masm [~masm@bl17-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 16:51:48 -!- masm1 [~masm@bl17-207-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:01:14 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:30 Agent-P [Agent-P@s2133.dyn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 17:05:21 klr: It's well spoken of. What gives you the impression Racket is a pain to install? 17:05:46 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:11 neworder [~chatzilla@175.156.163.63] has joined #scheme 17:19:11 Hi guys 17:19:20 I was reading about the Y combinator 17:19:27 I have some problems with it 17:19:57 -!- eizu [~ez@184.Red-83-50-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: eizu] 17:20:02 -!- Agent-P [Agent-P@s2133.dyn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:21:35 replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 17:22:01 Here: 17:22:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134005 17:22:25 I can't figure out why it expands out like that 17:22:29 Any help plss? 17:31:12 Euthy, the impression that i have to download the source code and compile it compared to "sudo pacman -S guile" 17:31:19 ijp [~user@host86-174-98-234.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:31:32 You haven't used the Y combinator, exactly, neworder. You've used the U combinator. 17:31:45 hmm 17:31:51 ok 17:32:11 It was part of the derivation of the Y combinator 17:32:42 The U combinator is (U f) = (f f). The Y combinator is (Y f) = (U (lambda (g) (f (lambda (x) ((f (U g)) x))))). 17:33:14 Ah I see 17:33:36 That's called U? I thought it was called M. 17:33:38 Basically, the Y combinator abstracts out the `(mk-length mk-length)' idiom you have in your code. 17:33:39 I tried stepping through the U combinator 17:33:49 but couldn't get some parts of it 17:34:11 Stepped through using Drracket 17:34:22 Hi shachaf 17:34:49 klr: There are binaries on the website. 17:34:52 I guess I was confused by Smullyan's names. 17:34:58 I was reading this, http://www.catonmat.net/blog/derivation-of-ycombinator/ 17:35:45 (lambda (mk-length) (mk-length mk-length)) 17:36:38 so here, mk-length gets replaced by (lambda (mk-length) 17:36:40 (lambda (list) 17:36:42 (cond 17:36:44 ((null? list) 0) 17:36:46 (else 17:36:48 (add1 ((mk-length mk-length) (cdr list))))))) 17:36:50 sorry for spamming 17:37:00 right? 17:37:25 I think mk-length is always mk-length. 17:38:58 question: how is the second part of the code derived from the first? =) 17:39:26 I mean the second function which is basically the 2nd step using the Stepper 17:39:42 Perhaps it might be clearer if you used different names for different variables, even if they are going to have the same, or equivalent, values. 17:40:01 hmm yeah! 17:40:10 ((lambda (mk-length0) (mk-length0 mk-length0)) (lambda (mk-length1) ...)) 17:40:41 How do I edit the paste? 17:40:55 The next step will have two copies of (lambda (mk-length1) ...), but you can then rename those to mk-length1 and mk-length2, &c. 17:40:57 Hmm Riastradh, then 17:41:02 You can't, but you can annotate it with a new paste. 17:41:13 sicp = penis 17:43:35 klr: Somewhere else, please. 17:44:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 17:50:57 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:51:37 -!- b4283 [~b4283@1-172-81-222.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:26 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:56:23 -!- klr [~klr@h88-129-209-27.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Read error: 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