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is now known as SHODAN 14:02:44 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:48 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:04:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:05:46 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:58 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:14 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:19 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:08:34 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 14:11:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:12:23 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-10-255.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:36 add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-10-255.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 14:15:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:21:58 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #scheme 14:24:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:00 is there a pretty printer for scheme data structures ? 14:26:28 mucker: some implementations provide pretty-print 14:26:45 mucker: chicken and gambit, at least, AFAIK 14:27:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:28:07 megamind [~Nevermind@113.190.166.35] has joined #scheme 14:29:52 mario-goulart: i am using guile .. http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Pretty-Printing.html does not work for hash-tables 14:31:22 a 14:31:24 LoL 14:31:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31:50 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Quit: later] 14:32:24 mucker: you probably need something like (pretty-print (hash-table->alist the-hash-table)) 14:32:33 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:33:07 mario-goulart: will try :) 14:33:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:38:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:40:09 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 14:41:18 -!- wingo [~wingo@132-117.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:42:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 14:45:24 wingo [~wingo@132-117.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 14:45:48 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:47:26 -!- superjudge [~mjl@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:47:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:47:42 megamind1 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:47 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:40:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:43:27 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:44:22 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-65-136.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 19:47:59 -!- masm1 [~masm@46.50.125.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:50:12 Two more editorial tickets to close and we issue draft 7 of R7RS-small, the last one before the plebiscite. 19:50:41 Someone just has to come up with wording to satisfy them. 19:50:48 But I fear it won't be me. 19:51:59 fantazo 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-!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:11:29 -!- FireFly [~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:13:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:14:13 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 20:14:26 FireFly [~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly] has joined #scheme 20:15:36 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:17:48 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:18:47 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:15 jcowan: Is there any hope of fixing 'eqv?' in R7RS? 20:22:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:22:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:22:58 Depends what you mean by "fixed". It can't satisfy people's unfortunately incompatible desires. 20:24:13 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:35 By "fixed", I mean that it shouldn't require (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) => #true and (let ((x +nan.0)) (eqv? x x)) => #false for non-IEEE numbers. I.e. that it should be possible to implement memoization. 20:25:53 Unfortunately, the 'same-bits' proposal threw non-IEEE systems under the bus. 20:28:19 I'm not sure who "desires" these requirements. It seems to me more a matter of laziness I'm afraid, i.e. that nobody on the working group who's paying attention cares enough to push for this problem to be fixed. 20:28:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:29:19 Gee, thanks. I appreciate the left-handed compliment. 20:30:24 I appreciate your efforts jcowan, and I know that you made an effort to raise this issue. I'm sorry if I'm not capable of suppressing my bitterness over this issue. 20:30:45 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6e643.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:46 Why the worry about non-IEEE systems? They are, to say the least, very rare. 20:31:43 I'm interested in adding support for MPFR to Guile, for one. 20:31:50 Ah. 20:31:55 (and MPC) 20:32:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:32:38 Can it be said that MPFR is IEEE-compliant except in its representation? 20:32:53 (i.e. is it IEEE 854 compliant?) 20:34:04 no, although it tries to follow the spirit of IEEE, there are some non-trivial areas where it is not compliant. 20:34:13 (let me look up the details) 20:34:14 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.182.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:12 most notably, it does not implement gradual underflow. 20:35:45 which is a very important part of IEEE FP. 20:36:39 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:11 gradual underflow is arranged by the existence of the subnormal numbers. 20:37:19 amoe_ [~amoe@host-2-96-227-87.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 20:38:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:40:26 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-151-123.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:42:21 amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-173-11.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:55 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:44:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:44:40 Anyway, even if you somehow adjusted the 'same-bits' proposal to include MPFR and MPC, that would still not be satisfactory. The R6RS definition may not be perfect, but its flaws are far less severe than those of the 'same-bits' proposal. At least the R6RS 'eqv?' is highly likely to implement memoization properly for all conceivable numeric representations. 20:44:43 -!- amoe_ [~amoe@host-2-96-227-87.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:08 but I guess everyone would prefer that I just go away. 20:47:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:48:22 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:48:32 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-173-11.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:49:00 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-164-5.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:56:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 20:59:38 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-92-100.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:02:09 AFAIK, some 3d graphics hardware doesn't do IEEE FP either, though I guess that's less relevant to Scheme. 21:02:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:02:51 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-171.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:03:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:07:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:05 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:09:25 mark_weaver: The trouble is that people don't necessarily desire same-bits behavior for NaNs, and indeed are not required to offer it. 21:11:49 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:13:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:42 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:16:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:16:53 The behavior for NaNs is less important than (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) => #false (on systems where +0.0 and -0.0 are operationally distinguishable). If (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) => #true, that will cause some memoized numerical procedures to return the wrong answer. (let ((x +nan.0)) (eqv? x x)) => #false will merely cause memoization tables to accumulate unbounded numbers of entries for +nan.0, which is suboptimal but at least won't 21:16:53 answer. 21:17:58 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@ip82-139-81-70.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 21:18:38 (and (eqv? +0.0 -0.0) (not (eqv? (/ +0.0) (/ -0.0)))) => #true is a very serious flaw. 21:19:09 I think you should just pretend that MPFR is an IEEE implementation. 21:19:55 That is to say, interpret "non-IEEE" as "doesn't have IEEE semantics for -0.0, +inf.0, -inf.0, and +nan.0" 21:20:11 Does that assuage your grief? 21:20:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:23:23 It's easy enough to ignore the standard where it is broken, and encourage others to do the same, which is what I will (regrettably) do if this problem is not fixed. The reason this is causing be grief is because I *care* about the standard being well conceived, and I'd like to be able to encourage adoption of it. 21:23:59 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:29:48 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 21:30:51 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 21:33:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:33:42 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:35:12 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:35:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:39:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-116.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:41:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:46:03 I'd like to be able to write portable programs for R7RS that use memoization. However, if I want them to work correctly, it appears I will have to target R6RS instead. 21:46:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:46:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:50:27 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 21:50:39 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:05 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 21:51:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:52:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 21:54:11 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 21:54:14 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #scheme 21:57:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:24 -!- confab [~confab@32.175.237.57] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:00:33 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:54 Am I really the only person here who cares about this? 22:01:08 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 22:02:27 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:02:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:03:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:04:43 mark_weaver: so it would seem 22:05:21 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:05:40 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-171-63.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:07:11 confab [~confab@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 22:08:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:09:15 damn 22:09:52 *foof* cares and is on mark's side but he ran off... 22:10:23 Just as well, I'm really very tired of the eqv? debate. 22:10:41 Since all NaNs behave the same except to eqv?, it's fairly easy to work around the NaN issue using `nan?`. 22:10:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:11:01 The NaN issue is irrelevant - it's unspecified in every standard anyway. 22:14:47 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-145-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:15:10 It's relevant to memoization. 22:15:43 It's procedures that really can't be reliably memorized in R[67]RS. 22:15:48 memoized, even 22:16:51 -!- ventonegro [~alex@18-53.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ventonegro] 22:17:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:31 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:17:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:19:21 stchang [~stchang@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:19:29 -!- stchang [~stchang@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 22:22:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:22:44 ThePawnBreak [~Cristi@p6.eregie.pub.ro] has joined #scheme 22:23:29 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 22:24:42 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:29:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:19 As mark_weaver said, you _can_ memoize +nan.0, you just won't reliably get a speedup. 22:30:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:30:37 -!- masm [~masm@188.140.108.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:31:36 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 22:34:39 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] 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