00:05:42 phao_ [phao@177.27.19.211] has joined #scheme 00:13:38 -!- pepijndevos is now known as pepijn_away 00:14:11 -!- phao_ [phao@177.27.19.211] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 00:27:35 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:07 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-11-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:30:50 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-61-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:35:20 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:41:11 does anyone here have experience with the scheme-based "Common Music" language? 00:42:20 i'm trying to learn it from "Notes from the Metalevel", but am getting some errors when trying some of the examples 00:43:30 for example, *scale* is supposed to be a global variable that Common Music is supposed to know about, but when i type *scale* at the repl, i get an error: >>> Error: *scale*: unbound variable 00:44:13 cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-174-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 00:48:57 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:13 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:54:06 hmm.. looks like i'm not the only one.. http://ccrma-mail.stanford.edu/pipermail/cmdist/2012-June/006564.html 00:55:21 "Seems that the book is based on version 2 of Common Music (which used Common Lisp), but version 3 of Common Music uses Scheme." 00:55:24 whoops 00:59:54 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:01:03 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 01:06:41 Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 01:13:05 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:21:37 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 01:27:22 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 01:28:52 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:24 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:33 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 01:36:20 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 01:38:04 hoi 01:38:23 youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:44:16 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:19 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.141.201] has joined #scheme 01:54:18 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 01:55:49 -!- youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:00 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.141.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:02:02 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:19:00 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:06 -!- turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:21:28 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 02:28:47 -!- phao [phao@177.27.19.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:58 phao [phao@177.27.19.211] has joined #scheme 02:53:26 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:46 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:31 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 03:01:42 snits [~snits@174-17-101-132.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:32 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:04:06 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 03:06:10 bhrgunatha [~chatzilla@118-170-210-214.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:20 -!- bhrgunatha [~chatzilla@118-170-210-214.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120827221415]] 03:19:17 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:20:10 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 03:20:47 -!- BossKonaSegwaY1 [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:58 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 03:29:31 phao_ [phao@177.146.139.46] has joined #scheme 03:32:52 -!- phao_ [phao@177.146.139.46] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:08 -!- phao [phao@177.27.19.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:44:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:50:02 ddp [~ddp@71.92.93.45] has joined #scheme 03:50:54 -!- copumpkin is now known as R-Money 03:53:30 -!- sator [~sator@2.192.47.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:53:45 -!- ddp [~ddp@71.92.93.45] has quit [Client Quit] 03:54:18 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:54:59 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 04:01:02 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 04:04:48 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-254-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:42 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:09:33 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 04:15:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 04:19:28 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1400:b::1] has joined #scheme 04:20:12 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 04:27:18 when common lisp people talk about macros, what are they talking about? I get the impression it's not the define-syntax type macros 04:30:28 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:43:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:05:12 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:32 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #scheme 05:19:14 defmacro? 05:38:28 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:38:50 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-2-96-234-161.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:52 b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:03 -!- b4283 is now known as b4284 05:51:06 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-152-204.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 05:51:33 jonrafkind: yeah I think so. 05:52:29 defmacro just replaces tokens basically 05:53:44 are they worth while learning, or should I stick with scheme style ones? 05:54:59 well you should definitely only use scheme style, but its worth learning about defmacro as an example of what not to do 05:55:09 LOL 05:55:14 defmacro is not hygienic, afaik 05:55:27 is defmacro more like C macros? 05:55:51 yea pretty much, except in C you can return things that become syntactically invalid 05:56:05 i mean its the same depending on how you define 'parsing' and whatnot 05:56:18 fair enough, I won't bother 05:56:22 i mean in C you can do #define foo ( 05:56:30 you cant do something that broken in lisp 05:56:54 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 05:57:57 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:59:41 phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has joined #scheme 05:59:59 does copy- make a deep or shallow copy? 06:00:36 I'd assume deep, but I'd like to make sure it's safe to modify 06:00:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:01:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:06 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 06:02:12 phy1729, are you using racket? 06:02:34 mit-scheme 06:03:21 seems it doesn't have a copy-foo 06:03:42 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-152-204.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:05:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 06:05:41 oh no I just needed to set copier 06:07:25 time to translate some imperative pseudocode into scheme. one day, functional will be the way to express algorithms. I hope 06:10:38 I'm about to have some of that 06:10:51 Once I figure out how to write the pseudo-scheme 06:10:51 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-174-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:06 cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-30-156.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:12:09 I am still garbage at FP, I find it easier to just do the imperative translation first, then spot places where you essentially have a map, or fold, or recursion 06:15:04 so here's my pseudo-scheme http://pastebin.com/LiGuuDSg 06:15:17 the problem is lines 3 and 4 06:15:36 and probably bad style 06:16:44 I'd factor that out into more procedures. but that's because I have a small brain :( 06:17:22 yeah the problem is then I can't cons 06:17:44 and have to either do append (slow) or some reverse voodoo magic 06:27:22 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:35 stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has joined #scheme 06:27:59 lewis1711, sometimes its much easier for me to write an imperative version than to think of the FP version 06:29:02 I think FP falls down when your algorithm or whatever cannot be implemented very elegantly 06:29:10 inelegant FP is worse than imperative :p 06:33:36 usually FP is clearer to me. idk why, since I suck at deriving fp algorithms myself 06:46:38 arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:57:44 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:17:17 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:21:36 masm [~masm@bl18-61-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:29:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has joined #scheme 07:29:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 07:32:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:25 Imperative style becomes important when you are dealing with aggregates you can't afford to be copying about all the time. There are systematic solutions to the problem, but they aren't easy to understand. 07:50:28 sator [~sator@2.192.119.189] has joined #scheme 07:54:43 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:55:23 amgarching [~matveev@2001:4ca0:2608:0:92:f0f2:fdeb:8977] has joined #scheme 07:57:54 -!- arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:13 kuribas [~user@d54C43503.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 07:59:03 arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:01:51 fp is clearer, when one can make copies of course its clearer 08:22:26 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 08:23:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-254-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:28:02 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:17 -!- R-Money [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] 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has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:28:31 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:37:33 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:38:01 tupi [~david@139.82.89.98] has joined #scheme 16:43:35 merimus [merimus@nat/google/x-mivfhivlemlqoapw] has joined #scheme 16:44:21 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:31 -!- merimus [merimus@nat/google/x-mivfhivlemlqoapw] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:52:24 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:56:36 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43503.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:57:21 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:57:53 covi [~covi@wasp.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 16:58:29 Hi all. When I pass an arithmetic operator (say + or *) into a function as an argument, why don't I need to put parenthesis around it? 16:59:49 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:23 + is bound to a procedure. It is a variable, just like plus could be. 17:00:26 (define plus +) 17:01:19 parentheses mean application. (function call, or macro call, or special syntax operator). 17:01:48 rudybot: (+) 17:01:48 pjb: your sandbox is ready 17:01:49 pjb: ; Value: 0 17:01:51 rudybot: + 17:01:51 pjb: ; Value: # 17:03:22 pjb: makes sense, thanks 17:04:33 And there's no partial application in scheme right? 17:04:40 -!- b4283 [~b4283@114-47-5-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:45 You can do something like that. 17:04:53 Maybe 'currying' is a better word 17:05:27 (define (curry fun . left-args) (lambda right-args (apply fun (append left-args right-args)))) 17:05:52 rudybot: (define (curry fun . left-args) (lambda right-args (apply fun (append left-args right-args)))) 17:05:52 pjb: Done. 17:06:01 rudybot: (curry + 2) 17:06:02 pjb: ; Value: # 17:06:05 rudybot: ((curry + 2) 3) 17:06:05 pjb: ; Value: 5 17:06:16 rudybot: (map (curry + 2) '(1 2 3)) 17:06:16 pjb: ; Value: (3 4 5) 17:06:21 Oh Oh a bunch of new stuff 17:06:25 thanks pjb 17:07:41 But partial evaluation is more interpreter or compiler stuff: http://wry.me/misc/peval.html 17:08:31 Quite interesting stuff actually. 17:11:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:13 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-152-171.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:22 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #scheme 17:15:35 -!- pepijndevos is now known as pepijn_away 17:17:37 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:22:35 evillyEvil [~evillyEvi@unaffiliated/evillyevil] has joined #scheme 17:24:14 -!- `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:06 -!- pepijn_away is now known as pepijndevos 17:39:43 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:46:22 -!- spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:03:45 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18:58:58 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 19:00:02 taylanub [tub@p4FD94936.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:14:13 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:34 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:22 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:37:47 Daemmerung [~goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@77.221.26.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:45:31 dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:47:28 the standards use the notion that variables are bound to locations, and locations hold values, can be filled with different values, etc.. this caused me confusion because it seemed to imply that variables work like pointers, meaning multiple variables could be bound to the same location, that a variable could later be bound to a different location, etc.. would it perhaps be clearer if they just said that variables are bound to values 19:47:28 ? 19:47:33 -!- pepijndevos [~pepijndev@ec2-23-21-19-58.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #scheme 19:48:27 don't drink and drive! 19:49:21 even in C pointers don't work that way.... 19:49:56 if you rebind/assign a pointer to something else it becomes pointing to something else 19:50:11 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #scheme 19:50:30 don't drink and derive 19:50:54 multiple variables won'get bind to the same location afaik, if you wanted to see them as pointers even....they'd get different addresses ..... 19:51:38 and those won't be contiguous even....cause the pointer adress assigment thing is on OS level.... 19:52:33 other than constants..... 19:52:38 maybe.... 19:53:00 wbooze: they certainly don't work like C pointers, the "location" they're bound to is determined when they're defined, can't be changed, and can't be bound to any other variable. there's no difference from thinking of them as being bound to values directly, so the notion of "locations" seems out of place 19:55:01 well, from what i've been told it comes from some notation related to abstract machines, but does that really have its place in the standards ? maybe it is a natural notion for theoretical computer scientists or mathematicians and just not for me 19:55:12 taylanub, it is indeed confusing, and SET! is at the root of the confusion, but it's too late to get rid of SET!. 19:55:15 locations == values in terms of storage not ? 19:55:36 wbooze: no, variables == locations 19:56:18 so variables == locations == values in terms of storage! 19:56:20 Riastradh: i was thinking it would clear the confusion to just say that variables are bound to values, and remove the unnecessary notion of "locations" 19:56:30 so what ? 19:56:30 -!- phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has left #scheme 19:56:54 It would be clearer to remove SET!. 19:58:08 if we're going to change the semantics, then fine i guess; i was just thinking of optimizing the notion used to explain the current semantics 19:58:53 taylanub, but then you need to thread every environment through the sequential behaviour of the Scheme machine. 19:58:54 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:59:37 i'm afraid i'm too ignorant to understand that sentence 19:59:47 That makes it harder to understand structurally what the environment does and what properties it exhibits (and how to abstract it when you're writing and reasoning about a compiler), when you could use the store instead, which already is threaded through the machine. 20:00:35 Consider writing an interpreter, with all state explicit (i.e., in a purely functional language, such as a subset of Scheme). 20:01:16 You'll end up with a data structure that represents `the current state of memory', which may change as you go through each step in the computation, but that whole state itself never gets stored anywhere, and you never refer back to old states. 20:02:24 You also need data structures for environments, but those get stored all over the place and lots of similar environments (e.g., (let () (define (f x) (lambda (y) (list x y))) (list (f 0) (f 1))) -- there are two environments there mapping the name `x' to different locations, one to a location holding 0 and one to a location holding 1) get stored in different places. 20:02:24 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:02:53 Updating all those environments whenever you SET! a variable would be a terrible pain and make your interpreter very hard to understand. 20:03:11 But updating the store is easy, because there's only one store at any given time. 20:03:19 Try writing an interpreter without mutation! 20:03:37 It'll be a lot more illuminating than just reading my verbiage here, and I have to vanish in a puff of smoke. 20:04:03 i'll think, thanks 20:04:07 (But don't just write an interpreter for a purely functional language -- write an interpreter for Scheme, including SET! and SET-CAR!, using only a purely functional subset of Scheme.) 20:09:12 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:34 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-68-252.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:12:07 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:17:28 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?] 20:20:37 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:22:29 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #scheme 20:25:53 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:35:29 correction, ip address assigment is actually at hw level....bleh 20:43:52 photo42 [~raffael@g225176133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:45:16 -!- photo42 [~raffael@g225176133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client 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