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Haskell isn't particularly object-oriented and "class" means something unrelated to an OO "class". 01:52:59 but why the big hassel to do mutation in Haskell or is it really such a big hassel? 01:53:23 mwolfe: clojure is pointless. there are several CL and scheme implementations targetting the JVM. 01:54:08 Clojure has some nice ideas. Notably it comes with multimethods/generics and a core library of persistent data structures. 01:54:09 classes without mutation of states are also quite pointless. 01:54:36 (sure, CL and Scheme could express these too) 01:54:52 That's why purely functionnal or logic programming languages like haskell and prolog, while having the capability of having "classes", are not specially object oriented. 01:55:17 Programming is quite pointless. We should all go back to watchmaking. Or sundials, since watches are quite pointless. 01:55:41 but in clojure you need to start a transaction to do mutation. why make it so difficult to do mutation? 01:56:33 Or selling fries on the beach 01:56:38 Uncontrolled mutation + concurrency is a very dangerous combination, and with multicore CPUs the present and future, concurrency is unavoidable. 01:57:04 Partial orders are harder to reason about than total orders, mwolfe. 01:57:16 Also, time-dependent code is harder to reason about than time-independent code. 01:58:05 mwolfe: also, it's not true that you need to start a transaction. There are compare & swap based atoms, for example. 01:58:25 But then, high levels of concurrencies won't be tamed by programming languages, but rather by algorithms such as neural networks. So it sounds to me rather pointless to prevent mutation in algorithmic programming languages. 01:58:41 It would be more accurate to say that Java generics are an ex post facto rendition of parametric polymorphism into a language originally designed without it, and that Java interfaces are a limited analogue of type classes. 01:59:23 Armchair architecture astronauts will figure out how to make neural networks program programs for us. 01:59:33 AAANNPP 02:01:11 Forget multicore CPUs; the world runs in parallel on shared state. 02:01:28 exactly. 02:02:42 The point of computers is have something simpler than the real world. 02:03:05 why is that scheme is not talked about or used as much languages like Haskell, ,clojure, scala or even Erlang. is that scheme has developed a reputation as a language for academic usage but not the 'real world... 02:03:41 mwolfe: popularity is driven by ignorance. 02:03:51 Lots of Irritating Single Parentheses 02:04:20 When newbies discover something, they're all surprized and exited, blog about it, talk about it, and start using amongst themselves. 02:04:29 jcowan: they don't even know what that means! 02:04:48 mwolfe: the worse, is when they "invent" something, like perl or php! 02:04:51 Well, perhaps I don't either. What does it mean? 02:04:57 yes, i know that. but those other languages have overly complicated syntax.. 02:05:11 Lisp, but they have no idea what a lisp program looks like, so they can't imagine this objection. 02:05:32 As soon as they see one, they raise it. 02:05:46 That's not really true. 02:05:56 yes, you are correct. what can bring it more into the supposed main stream. 02:06:00 It's easy to compare parenthesis count in equivalent programs. 02:06:39 mwolfe: education. I've noticed that teaching lisp or scheme is rather badly done in most university. 02:07:01 interesting discussion. 02:07:18 except for the renowned 601 class at MIT! 02:07:20 my interst in FP was from doing parallelism in C on game consoles 02:07:27 (ilp, threading, simd..) 02:08:10 game programming needs reasoning about time, finite resources, parallelism.. 02:08:16 has FP helped you in that type of programming? 02:08:22 no 02:08:26 its way too late 02:08:37 but its conceptually useful 02:08:49 to late for what... 02:08:57 re-factoring things to work efficiently on a game console means you have to conceptually handle all that 02:09:14 mwolfe: the CELL is a platform that needed a mature parallel language 7 years ago 02:09:22 the language didn't mature in time so CELL is dead 02:10:12 CELL had hardware aspects that suited compacting garbage-collection; legacy C sourcesbases wouldn't work (NUMA) 02:10:29 C was still the best tool for using it efficiently. nothing else was ready 02:10:35 i heard that sussman or aldersen are doing some kind of android app in scheme. 02:10:49 BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:10:58 what i like about FP is map,filter,reduce versus iterators 02:11:39 you have to reason about finite reasources though, i.e. caches. In CELL , you had a manually managed cache. algorithms had to be tailored to that cache size 02:13:42 one thing that has helped kill CELL is GPGPU, which offers superior performance for pure numeric array procesing.... but again, it needs such a specialized case of memory use that FP languages dont really help. when you can parallelize for GPU, its also trivial in C. the work is in refactoring the data in the first place 02:15:22 maybe we need a new Cell design to fit the programming?! 02:15:48 consumers already get high performance massively parallel computation where it counts.. .media processing - from GPUs. and it doesn't need FP. whereas the surrounding infrastructure (fitting memory use) does need reasoning about meemory.. so GC based languages are unsuitable 02:16:15 mwolfe: no; the programming fits the hardware not the other way round. reality is about finite resources.. entropy :) 02:16:29 FP is some pure abstractioin of how you'd like reality to behave 02:16:34 (entropy.. heat..) 02:16:42 (battery life) 02:17:31 but the cell design we are using was developed when memory was expensive... 02:17:57 no; what is always constant in any era of computing is a tradeoff between memory size and speed 02:18:34 however cheap or expensive memory is, there is always "relatively large, cheap memory" versus "relatively fast, expensive memory" 02:18:49 whether its disk vs ram, or registers vs dram, or hard-drive versus tapes 02:19:02 programs always have to reason about prioritizing data 02:19:12 Don't worry, in a couple of years, memristores will change the landscape, with processing inside the memory, so programming those will be totally different. 02:19:33 how much memory does the iphone or adroid have? 02:20:06 A certain amount. 02:20:28 how much memory is needed to implement the star-trek holodeck 02:20:48 Much more. 02:20:53 i have no idea how much memory these 'smart have... 02:20:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:21:28 512 MB or 1 GB I'd say. 02:21:42 with a phone .. memory and processing is battery life 02:22:16 ok, so the problem gets down to battery life. more memory less battery life. 02:22:56 yes. fast memory - onchip - small, tiny energy conspumption. slow memory - main DRAM, large, huge energy consumption 02:23:36 in games programming we were shown cycle counts... L1 cache 2 cycle latency , main memory 600 cycle latency 02:24:09 now you get shown joules for accessing memory.. similar factors - accessing main memory takes ~100x as much energy as accessing onchip memory 02:24:20 what are we typically using onchip memory for vs. main Dram memory 02:24:28 whatever you can fit in it 02:24:46 if your program fits onchip, it takes 100x less battery life 02:25:08 ok, but how large is typical onchip memory? 02:25:20 doesn't matter. its the underlying principle 02:25:27 smaller is ALWAYS faster, more efficient 02:25:31 -!- arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:42 i dont know off hand 02:25:49 arbn [~arbn@71-87-150-49.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:25:58 L1 cache, L2 cache etc vs RAM 02:26:41 game consoles have ~100's of k L1 cache, vs 512mb RAM . the fast memory is tiny 02:26:55 *jcowan* chuckles. 02:27:29 so it seems what is holding us back is battery life. why not use some kind of solar power supply? 02:27:29 Back in the day, kiddo, 32K of main memory was a huge amount, and fetch time was a max of 3 cycles. 02:27:41 mwolfe: whats holding you back is reality is about finite resources 02:27:54 mwolfe: people multiply faster than technology advances 02:28:25 solar power is pathetic 02:28:35 compared to what you're used to (fossil fuels) 02:28:42 why have solar for the simple calculator and watches....... 02:28:43 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:28:52 because they are tiny devices 02:29:36 so there seems no way around it. we are stuck with low battery life. 02:29:56 unless we enlarge the cell phone. 02:30:06 its already a supercomputer in your pocket ffs 02:30:22 compared to "back in the day" as mentioned by jcowan. 02:30:58 yes, but not good enough. we have all these fancy apps.. but still are held back by the simple battery... 02:31:26 As I said, programming is quite pointless. Let's all become battery engineers. 02:32:18 we let the battery engineer make the batteries and we can program! but the batteries have to last longer. 02:33:21 so because of short batter life we can't program Cell's in scheme. seems kind of strange. 02:33:28 no you have to make your part (the program) better. and hope the battery engineer is also doing the same 02:33:52 no. i've explained the issues, and how they relate to different context 02:34:22 you can't program CELL in scheme because no one made an implementtation that can figure out how to map to its instruction set and memory limits 02:34:25 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Quit: be right back] 02:34:28 so people had to do it manually in C 02:35:07 i think that sussman is working on an app at Google in scheme... 02:35:18 there's 3 types of parallelism to figure out. SIMD (single registers with multiple values); ILP (pipelining of loops) and Multicore 02:36:04 if you can make a compiler figure all that out then great, you can write PS3 games in scheme 02:36:31 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #scheme 02:37:20 but people who did it manually in C have a 7 year headstart :) 02:37:54 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:38:36 its certainly an area of active research. .i'm sure the languages and implementations will continue to evolve 02:39:30 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:01 i hope so... and have done lots of C programming myself. 02:41:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:43:01 You are probably thinking of Abelson, not Sussman, mwolfe, and in particular of Google App Inventor. 02:43:09 penryu [~penryu@unaffiliated/penryu] has joined #scheme 02:43:29 you are correct it is Albeson. 02:43:52 the thing about C is it forces you to think about memory. you can adapt algorithms differently for size vs speed tradeoffs 02:44:13 reality is about trade-offs 02:45:07 but what about abelson's Google App Inventor... 02:45:22 if the apps are easy to write.. chances are someone already wrote the important ones :) 02:46:10 if you really have a new idea for an app, its worth the extra effort to code it in C 02:46:58 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 02:48:16 It seems that Abelson's app is very specialized.. plus he is a scheme fanatic! 02:49:31 n00b6502: 95% of programs written have always been bespoke, and a great deal of bespoke code is *not* worth the extra effort to code it in C, which is why VB is still so popular. 02:50:29 C is not an effort if you know how to program in it. 02:50:30 ok sure there is tradeoff between programming time and amount of time the program saves the users 02:51:08 mwolfe, I certainly do know how to program in C, and it is definitely an effort. 02:51:44 i know it is... but it more interesting then VB.. 02:52:00 *jcowan* shrugs. 02:52:13 C is overkill for UI programming sure 02:52:24 I enjoyed spending a few years programming in VB and several more programming in Perl and sh, and that was *after* I worked in C. 02:52:28 if you're using widgets etc provided by the OS 02:53:18 is the whole UI problem.. that dictates us to use languages that we might not want to use. 02:54:05 some C programs have sceheme embedded or better still python or lua 02:54:17 best of both worlds 02:54:52 i know i have looking at Guile for that reason... 02:55:18 Look at Chibi: it's meant for embedding in really small devices. 02:55:47 It's roughly Lua-sized, though it doesn't have a JIT yet. 02:56:02 yes, have you used it yet? 02:56:23 I use it a lot, though not on embedded systems. 02:56:34 But then I use almost every Scheme quite a bit these days. :-) 02:57:25 what determines the implementation of scheme that you use? 02:57:38 what interests me about lisps is the idea of having a simple implementation (of a subset?) that can be customized (DSL) 02:58:27 Whether I can build them on Linux without too much infrastructure. I currently have 45 Schemes installed and in use. 02:59:16 cowan@pubuntu:~$ schemes 02:59:16 For Scheme, try racket, gosh, mit-scheme, gsi, csi -R numbers, bigloo, scheme48, scsh, guile, kawa --output-format readable-scheme, sisc, chibi -Mscheme.base, scm -m, petite, vicare, larceny, ypsilon, mosh, iron, nexj, stklos, ksi, sscm, shoe, tinyscheme, s9, dream, rs, s7, bdc, xlisp, rep, schemik, elk, umb-scheme, vx-scheme, oaklisp, llava, sxi, sizzle, spark, /opt/femtolisp/femtolisp/flisp, dfsch-repl, inlab, ol 02:59:51 how many do you actively use. does each really have a unique niche 03:00:09 wow, jowan you do have the full range of them.. which one do you like the best? 03:00:15 I write code basically for Chicken and Chibi. 03:00:45 seems like they are complete opposites..... 03:00:58 I have a script "runallschemes" that I use to find out how various Schemes act on various expressions; that's why I have so many, as part of the R7RS work. 03:01:42 I just found out that there are a fair number of Schemes on which (let ((quote -)) '32) => 32, though most of them => -32. I was pretty surprised by that. 03:01:43 i am currently use Gambit-C scheme but have looked at others as well 03:02:25 Gambit is a good choice if you are all about speed and can't deal with Stalin. Chicken is almost as fast and has a pretty rich user-contributed library. 03:02:34 -!- BossKonaSegwaY [~Michael@cpe-75-187-42-68.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:47 -!- zephyrfalcon [~zephyrfal@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: zephyrfalcon] 03:02:54 i like the idea of stain from what i read of it 03:03:00 i like the idea of stalin from what i read of it 03:03:20 jcowan tells us about stalin.. 03:04:04 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 03:04:38 It produces insanely fast code, but the compiler runs insanely slowly. It takes a day or so for Stalin to compile itself, about 100,000 LOC. 03:05:16 It's seriously underdocumented IMHO, and there is no community around it, just isolated users who patch it for their own needs. The author has basically abandoned it. It's R4RS-based. 03:05:52 ok, thanks to bad no one else is picking it up.. how about yourself... 03:05:54 wow - a day to compile 100,000loc - even on modern machines ? 03:06:43 There is a variant called Chicken-Stalin, which is Stalin compiled with Chicken instead of Stalin. You can compile it a lot faster that way, though of course Chicken-Stalin runs even slower than Stalin. 03:07:17 I should note that Stalin ships with both C and Scheme code, so you don't have to do a full bootstrap. 03:07:33 and theres me thinking 30minute build times are long 03:07:54 It does massive amounts of interprocedural optimization. 03:08:14 whole-program analysis right? 03:08:23 Totally. Including the standard library. 03:11:19 zephyrfalcon [~zephyrfal@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:54 Note that's a day to compile 100kloc that are tuned to compile quickly with Stalin. 03:13:24 Indeed. 03:13:35 -!- ivan\\ is now known as ivan\ 03:14:04 is that anywhere near its theoretical limit - is stalin itself something that can be massively optimized 03:14:20 is it like O(N^3) everything algorithms or something.. 03:14:35 Ya got me. It's a big pile of code I don't understand. 03:14:56 it generates C , right ? 03:15:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:15:25 Yes. 03:15:37 The C is also a BPOCIDU. 03:15:37 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:48 heh. maybe its actually trying out different permutations and timing them for you 03:16:01 -!- b4283 is now known as b4284 03:16:06 maybe it compiles your program 100 different ways and gives you the fastest one 03:16:44 AFAIK no, it does not execute any of your code at compile time. (No macros, remember.) 03:17:24 foof: Do you have an idea what to do with the few ballot issues we have left? I'm thinking we could push them through using a no-objection procedure. 03:17:41 1 day to compile 100LOC. come back C++ all is forgiven 03:17:54 ^k 03:19:01 jcowan: That's what I was thinking - I'll setup a mini-ballot tonight. 03:19:28 Why not just say: If you object to any of these four issues, post to the list and we'll do a ballot. 03:19:37 Perfectly legitimate parliamentary procedure. 03:20:08 s/four/five 03:20:09 Ultimately takes more time if it does go to ballot... 03:20:33 True. How long do you want for the ballot? 03:20:35 jcowan, you are working on R7? 03:20:50 I'm an editor; foof is the chair. 03:20:54 (and also an editor) 03:21:18 I was thinking a week. Let me review the issues, if they really do seem trivial I'll just ask for objections first. 03:21:45 ok, briefly what are the goals are R7 vs. R6? 03:22:47 I'd like a draft ready for the workshop (which means we have a lot of review to do), so we'll optimistically write up the issues and possibly backtrack on them if there are objections and the subsequent ballot fails. 03:26:56 mwolfe: R7RS is being split into two parts, a small language (which is what we are discussing) intended as a successor to R5RS, and a large language which will contain a lot of optional packages. A full-bore R7RS-large system will be largeer than a CL-conformant system. 03:27:06 foof: Okay, will do. 03:31:08 Looking at them I think we do need a ballot; I'm not happy with #280 (removing self-quotation of vectors) and I know you're not happy with #468 (brackets and braces as delimiters0 03:31:10 ) 03:31:39 -!- penryu [~penryu@unaffiliated/penryu] has left #scheme 03:33:09 Man, we have *six days*. That is just too short. 03:35:21 jcowan: Why do you even want #468? There is no scenario in which it could increase portability. 03:36:12 If people are allowed to write identifiers like this-[]-here they will be extremely unportable to R6RS systems. 03:36:12 thanks jcowan, where can a read the ongoing draft of R7RS (small and large)? 03:36:39 No large draft yet; we don't have enough marbles to work on both at the same time. 03:36:50 jcowan: That's already unportable. 03:37:20 just don't make it look or act like clojure! 03:37:22 Granted, but not *as* unportable. 03:37:41 We've handled this with the definition of identifier syntax - also saying it's a delimiter doesn't change anything. 03:37:43 mwolfe: Of course not. See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/#no1 for access to the drafts. 03:38:20 foof: As things stand, an implementation could allow such identifiers; the effect of #468 is not to allow them. 03:38:35 thanks jcowan... 03:39:16 -!- zephyrfalcon [~zephyrfal@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: zephyrfalcon] 03:39:39 jcowan: Then we should simply say "it is an error to use [] and {} in identifiers". Their function as delimiters or otherwise is irrelevant and confuses the issue. 03:39:46 looking at the member page. what are real world names? 03:40:21 "It is an error" isn't strong enough imho 03:40:27 mwolfe: Those are real-world names. 03:41:21 so foof is alex shinn? 03:41:28 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: diarrhea] 03:42:19 Or alternately we can say that they are reserved, but MUST not be used in identifiers. Which I would still disagree with but consider a reasonable proposal. 03:42:43 Making unspecified characters delimiters is just bizarre. 03:42:49 I'm okay with that. Do you think it needs a vote? There are plenty of Schemes that allow them. 03:44:56 We'd be breaking existing practice in several Schemes, I'd really prefer to leave it out. 03:45:44 Of course I have ulterior motives, namely SRFI 105. 03:46:52 Oh dear god no. 03:47:17 It's SRFI-49 all over again. 03:47:43 I thought that would freak you out. But no, 105 by itself is not identation syntax, it's inlines and f(x) notation *between curly brackets* only. 03:49:11 Anyway, do you really find Felix's argument persuasive about non-self-quoting vectors? Internally, records would work just as well. 03:49:18 -!- youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:50:00 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 03:52:38 -!- mwolfe [~mwolfe@99-32-248-91.uvs.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:53:40 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:54:19 mwolfe [~mwolfe@99-32-248-91.uvs.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:55 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #scheme 03:56:29 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-65-25.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:59:58 youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:06:51 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:19:01 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 04:41:45 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:46:11 -!- arbn 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18:27:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.55.162] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:28:39 russfrank [~russfrank@oftn/member/russfrank] has joined #scheme 18:28:48 -!- copumpkin is now known as dog 18:29:00 how do I do the equivalent of ,open in a .scm file? I'm using scheme48 on osx 18:37:52 -!- ameoba__ is now known as ameoba 18:39:38 -!- tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.140.244] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:54:03 tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.142.93] has joined #scheme 18:56:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:05 confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 18:58:56 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:59:16 -!- dog is now known as copumpkin 19:00:15 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:00:44 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@bas9-hamilton14-3096717720.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:26 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 19:02:24 -!- Nisstyre is now known as Nisstyre_ 19:07:31 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:02 wmoxam [~wmoxam_@pdpc/supporter/active/wmoxam] has joined #scheme 19:09:07 -!- wmoxam [~wmoxam_@pdpc/supporter/active/wmoxam] has left #scheme 19:11:34 -!- tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.142.93] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:13:35 tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.142.93] has joined #scheme 19:14:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:18:33 russfrank: According to , you can do e.g. (open scheme); at least within a structure definition. 19:28:37 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #scheme 19:28:54 -!- spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:38 spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has joined #scheme 19:39:55 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: pnpuff] 19:41:08 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:06 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 19:47:59 -!- mwolfe [~mwolfe@99-32-248-91.uvs.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:15 mwolfe 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