00:11:37 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:41 .. someone ought to tell mhr_ about the custom of staying around for a while after a conversation, instead of just logging in at the precice times one has a question (and then logging out shortly after), over and over again 00:15:16 yo mhr_ 00:23:38 ski: The art of lurking? 00:24:00 i suppose 00:25:00 i was more thinking about it as "the art of staying long enough to give people who're not actually present all the time a chance to answer/comment" 00:25:51 ski: The asynchrony of IRC is a little weird, though, isn't it? It seems like people are conditioned today by SMS- or Facebook-style more-or-less immediate responses. 00:25:54 Or maybe not. 00:30:20 I don't think Facebook (or Twitter, etc...) are particularly instantaneous. 00:30:39 mhr_ [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has joined #scheme 00:30:43 But they don't require an always-on connection. You just visit a website. 00:31:31 chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 00:31:31 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 00:31:31 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #scheme 00:32:37 klutometis: You're correct. IRC is unusual. People not used to it treat it like IMs or chat rooms and then are surprised by how quiet it is and how many people who are "there" that are not really "there". 00:33:05 It could take hours to get a useful answer on some channels. 00:35:08 asumu: Ah, so the problem with IRC is that it's ephemeral: it ceases to exist, in some sense, when you log off. (Ceases to exist for you, that is.) 00:35:17 In chat rooms or in IRC channels that are treated like chat rooms, you basically can't keep up with the conversation unless it's real-time. 00:35:55 Aethaeryn: That's why I find myself buying political credit by lurking in channels I don't use very often. 00:35:59 klutometis: An interesting thing would be an IRC client that is combined with an auto-log bot/website. It would fetch the logs that happened in between your log ins so that it appears as if you never left. 00:36:07 Aethaeryn: Not bad! 00:37:22 Asynchronous IRC client. 00:37:26 Exactly. 00:37:55 You could even make in an asynchronous IRC *network* and allow a channel option to have a LogServ sit in, kind of like how some channels have ChanServ sit in on Freenode so they never "die" of inactivity. 00:39:35 I think I'm going to write an ircd in Lisp that has modern features like this (it's on my "one day" list, so don't count on it anytime in the next year). Clients like irssi could be patched with their scripting functionality, I think, to handle it. 00:43:59 *klutometis* sets a followup for one year. 00:44:58 lol 00:47:03 Oh, and if anyone's curious, this is related to my thought experiment of "What if modern websites were designed to be open instead of to lock people in?" The idea would be to use a web IRC client rather than yet-another-proprietary-IM. 00:47:29 -!- phao [phao@177.26.79.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ 00:49:03 Greenspun's tenth rule is "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp." 00:49:06 Aethaeryn's tenth rule is "Any sufficiently complicated website or game contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of a tenth of IRC." 00:49:21 Seriously, anytime something adds chat, it clones IRC, often down to the /me 00:50:01 s/chat/group chat 00:51:09 what's worse, IRC itself isn't well specified 00:51:38 well, the corollary to Greenspun's rule is "...including Common Lisp" so I suppose the corollary to Aethaeryn's rule is "...including IRC." 00:51:40 Also Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can. -- http://catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html 00:52:45 offby1: At least they actually implement mail (even if they sometimes do it poorly and intrusively like Facebook). They just *clone* IRC. 00:53:40 Even in the open source world, #wesnoth tried copying large parts of IRC and they had to revert the old game lobby because it was so buggy. It's hard to reinvent wheels. 00:54:29 relevant to the above : ,, 00:55:19 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.235] has joined #scheme 00:57:57 bleah 00:58:08 those URLs wrap on my screen, hence I cannot open them 00:58:09 arcfide [~arcfide@c-69-136-24-18.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:15 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 00:58:20 My terminal handles wrapped URLs 00:58:23 by putting them in <> you have defeated rudybot's tiny-url-ification 00:58:37 And surprisingly handled the <>s right 01:01:18 http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7451.10;wap2 http://weblog.terrellrussell.com/2007/10/always-away-for-plausible-deniability/ http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2005/02/13/cultural_divide_in_im_presence_vs_communication.html 01:01:20 http://tinyurl.com/c34dzjp 01:01:20 http://tinyurl.com/6ru5p 01:01:22 offby1: ^ 01:01:28 Uh, it only worked for two of them. 01:03:24 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:54 offby1 : see appendix of RFC 1738 at 01:05:54 http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/#(part._.Where_to_.Go_.From_.Here) it says that racket isn't as minimalist as other schemes. Is there a different scheme that sticks to the original philosophy of scheme, yet still has something like Dr. Racket? 01:06:39 ski: You're the only person I've seen follow the RFC on IRC. 01:06:48 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:11 ski: Also, I think they meant this, based on the abstract: 01:07:18 (My terminal handles this properly, too, wow. 01:07:19 ) 01:07:31 ski: that's how they use it in the abstract 01:08:15 They also use that elsewhere, e.g. the references. 01:08:42 yes, you're right 01:08:55 ski: Did I just change how you view the world? :o 01:09:42 i think i've seen someone else use this style of quoting URL on IRC, and only later found that RFC 01:09:49 mhr_: I think in the Lisp/Scheme world most people use emacs. It has useful support for both. 01:10:06 ok 01:10:31 mhr_: Racket has some other languages that are (supposed to be) more standard/minimal Scheme. I think #lang r5rs works 01:10:33 I didn't like emacs much 01:10:36 "#lang r5rs" 01:10:49 don't know how I missed that, thanks 01:11:00 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:12:30 I'm not sure if r5rs adds a lot of stuff on top of the standard or not, though. (It's very easy to do so since it leaves some things unspecified on purpose, for implementors.) 01:12:34 Try #racket 01:13:08 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:38 It seems to leave out some really basic/useful stuff that aren't standard, though. (e.g. hash tables) 01:13:48 "In some cases, it will be necessary to distinguish URLs from other possible data structures in a syntactic structure. In this case, is recommended that URLs be preceeded with a prefix consisting of the characters "URL:". For example, this prefix may be used to distinguish URLs from other kinds of URIs." 01:13:48 I thought that r5rs was the standard? 01:14:02 "In addition, there are many occasions when URLs are included in other kinds of text; examples include electronic mail, USENET news messages, or printed on paper. ... For this purpose, is recommended that angle brackets ("<" and ">"), along with the prefix "URL:", be used to delimit the boundaries of the URL. ..." 01:14:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@24.186.85.192] has joined #scheme 01:14:50 ok, after rereading, i now str that last time i read this, i decided i only needed the wrapping feature, not the "distinguish URLs from other possible data structures in a syntactic structure" part 01:15:03 Aethaeryn ^ 01:16:16 (or mayhaps i didn't see it on IRC, but in mail or usenet or other plain-text document (e.g. references at end) -- i'm not sure) 01:16:16 ski: Yes, but they decided to be... pedantic or something? They use... one email with <> (and no prefix) and dozens of URLs with <> (and the URL: prefix). 01:16:31 It would seem... more useful if they gave email the MAIL: prefix there and didn't prefix the URL. 01:16:52 "one email with <> (and no prefix)" ? 01:17:19 page 0, the introduction, 01:17:23 *ski* sees three `EMail: ...' at the end 01:17:28 hm, ok 01:17:31 That's the only thing that isn't prefixed that I noticed 01:18:25 mhr_: r5rs is the standard. There's some things that are unspecified. Ergo, there's no guarantee that it's compliant with other r5rs anyway. 01:18:33 And no hash tables in r5rs 01:18:37 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 01:18:41 alright 01:20:54 Aethaeryn : hm, on a quick scan, you appear to be right 01:21:28 how is racket different from r5rs? 01:21:49 I should probably ask this in #racket, nvm 01:23:18 .. i wonder why they didn't use `' instead of `', then 01:23:48 ski: Maybe that's a later browser convention from Netscape or something. Remember, it's 1994. 01:24:00 They probably also saw email as way more common/popular than this new WWW thing 01:24:29 mhr_: Well, I think it's mostly or only additions to Scheme/r5rs, but I could be wrong. It's different enough that they changed their name from PLT Scheme to Racket. 01:24:51 http://racket-lang.org/new-name.html 01:25:08 mhr_ : btw, it might be nice if you stayed a while after you've asked a question on IRC, instead of (apparently) just joining just when you have a question (and then quitting soon again) 01:25:09 or I guess 01:25:30 (I'm still amazed that my terminal handles that correctly. Someone knows their RFCs.) 01:25:56 mhr_ : e.g. , , might be interesting here 01:25:56 http://tinyurl.com/c34dzjp 01:25:56 http://tinyurl.com/6ru5p 01:26:36 wow, either someone just patched rudybot or the space makes all the difference 01:26:39 Either way, I'm amazed 01:27:29 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-217.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:27:29 It also seems smart enough not to create new tinyurls (or maybe this is tinyurl's API) 01:28:31 mhr_ : in any case, pertaining to your earlier question about lexical scope : the idea is that if you see e.g. `(let ((x (cons a b))) ..x..)', then the `x' that you see in `..x..' is the `x' bound by the `let', unless there's an interleaving form which binds a separate `x', shadowing the outer one 01:29:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:30:22 mhr_ : and *also* : *only* the expression `..x..' here have access to `x' -- e.g. functions that are called in `..x..' whose body occur elsewhere in the program *won't* have access to `x' 01:30:42 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:31:30 hmm 01:31:57 phao [phao@177.115.48.21] has joined #scheme 01:32:08 *Aethaeryn* is going to try to think of a counterexample 01:32:21 Aethaeryn : iirc, that's `tinyurl' being a function 01:33:51 jcowan [~John@p-67-158-180-195.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:12 ski: I suppose you could abuse (scheme write) (I use r7rs) with respect to the internal x to trivially give access to 'x' on some level. 01:36:24 But that's kind of... not elegant. So I'll see if I can find something better. 01:38:03 hoi 01:38:23 ah, I think I've got it 01:40:02 Aethaeryn : i don't follow 01:40:29 just a second 01:40:34 I have a better example in the works, if it works 01:43:13 It works if you work it! 01:43:36 heh 01:43:37 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-136.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:42 Yeah, but this is the most high-pressure program I've written recently! 01:43:46 :-P 01:43:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-139-231.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:43:55 I feel like I'm being timed :-P 01:44:11 *jcowan* pricks Aethaeryn's program with a PIN, thus reducing it to low-pressure. 01:45:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@24.186.85.192] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:48:01 Apparently, even tiny programs need to be debugged sometimes 01:48:59 Yup. 01:49:13 :) 01:52:07 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 01:55:35 -!- carleastlund [~cce@gotham.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: carleastlund] 01:56:42 mhr_ : perhaps is also of some interest, if you're a newbie 01:56:59 thanks 01:57:33 got it 01:57:52 ok ? 02:03:52 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 02:05:47 b4284 [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:52 -!- FireFly [~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:09:00 mhr_: There are people on #lisp who get upset if you say something funny, in my experience. 02:09:17 ski: https://gist.github.com/3057626 02:09:34 yeah, a pretty uptight community imo 02:09:56 There's #lispcafe for out of topic #lisp-ers. 02:10:21 I drop in there, ask specific questions, drop out before I'm tempted to wander. 02:10:22 pjb: Oh. Someone once told me that #emacs was for off-topic 02:10:28 #clnoobs for newbies, #lisp-lab for general lisp discussion, #lispgames for specific game development. 02:10:40 #emacs is entirely off-topic. 02:10:50 Yeah. 02:11:10 I agree! never mention it. 02:11:10 ski: Does my counterexample satisfy your statement or did I misinterpret you? 02:11:13 Well, no, not entirely. I got a few good answers about IELM there. 02:11:52 Aethaeryn: I assure you I didn't just patch rudybot ... and it's tinyurl that is smart enough to to regenerate new ones. 02:12:23 I assume all URL shorteners do that 02:12:36 There are so many now, I'm sure at least one does not 02:12:38 s/to to/not to/ 02:12:53 you could DOS it by just submitting the same URL over and over. 02:12:55 pjb: What's the difference between #lisp and #lisp-lab? 02:13:06 Let's test it out on goo.gl using two different accounts, since goo.gl gives statistics related to the link, i.e. who clicked it. 02:13:29 #lisp is Common Lisp #lisp-lab is all lisps. 02:13:32 Ah. 02:14:30 pjb: People still make non-CL lisps that aren't schemes? 02:14:31 #lisp may discuss older lisps in relation to CL, but that's the extent it will go. 02:14:35 The only one I can think of is Clojure 02:15:20 Aethaeryn: well, there's picolisp, and there are silly things like newlisp (technology of the late 1960's in 2010's). 02:16:09 oh, there's also Arc 02:16:22 I read HN regularly and even I can't remember Arc exists. 02:16:35 there's newlisp 02:17:04 which i read yesterday, uses dynamic scope (!) 02:17:21 Yup. The newest old lisp in the book 02:17:21 + picolisp 02:17:21 Also this Shen thing. 02:17:25 Kernel probably counts, too. 02:17:30 oops already mentioned 02:17:47 Clojure is of course neither CL nor Scheme. 02:17:50 as is elisp 02:18:14 hedgehog anyone? 02:18:39 If you put every set of function arguments into its own namespace, you can get the effect of static binding from dynamic binding. 02:18:58 Dynamic binding's trouble arises because it screws with alpha conversion, but if no two identifiers have the same name, alpha conversion is unimportant. 02:19:16 FurnaceBoy: hedgehog this one i never heard of 02:20:14 Kernel is much closer to Scheme than to CL 02:20:29 jcowan: Well, Clojure seems to be the only major Lisp to be started after Common Lisp. Scheme and elisp are older, I think. 02:21:28 FireFly [~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 02:21:32 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:21:35 Yes and no. Steele's original Scheme implementation (on Maclisp) predates CL, but the first non-research Scheme implementations appeared after CLtL1. 02:21:38 Aethaeryn: Scheme 1975. 02:21:59 Kernel seems to be a fork of Scheme. 02:22:03 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_%28programming_language%29 02:22:07 So Scheme had some influence on CL (lexical binding), but CL had a lot of influence on R2RS Scheme and forward. 02:22:18 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:20 Kernel is Scheme with fexprs. 02:22:28 it's even specified in a "Revized^-1 Report on the Kernel Programming Language" 02:22:38 s/Revized/Revised 02:22:51 I sometimes am overzealous in my de-Britishification of my English. 02:22:57 emulation is the sincerest form of 02:23:34 Aethaeryn : sorry, somewhat tired here. read it now 02:23:38 langmartin [~user@68-186-113-4.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:23:44 Aethaeryn: Why de-Briticise/ize your language? 02:24:01 adiii [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:41 Aethaeryn : your example isn't a counter-example of what i mean : you pass the current *value* of `x' to `side-effects-are-evil' -- but the local `x' itself is unharmed 02:24:52 jcowan: American is more of the universal English than British English. 02:25:11 oh boy 02:26:04 Well, there are more Americans than Brits, but there are an awful lot of people (notably in India) who learn British English as a second language. 02:26:06 And that's funny too, because at school, I learned British English. I wonder if they still do in France. (Well they're so lame it probably doesn't matter). I had to learn American English later. 02:26:13 Just so. 02:26:27 jcowan: aw, no. Indians speak Indian English :-) 02:26:33 That's totally different :-) 02:26:36 I was talking about writing/spelling here. 02:26:49 well, yes. the diffrences are easily learned and applied. 02:27:14 FurnaceBoy: I don't agree at all 02:27:16 vocab is more extensively different, but since even Brits are bombarded with US TV, we learn both vocabularies. 02:27:35 *FurnaceBoy* blames Sesame St 02:27:44 It would be practically impossible for me to write idiomatic BrE 02:27:49 meh 02:27:52 you know that's not what i mean. 02:27:59 let's assume i mean technical english 02:28:08 the spelling differences are minor and easily learned 02:28:36 I would have to relearn it, I only remember s/er$/re/ 02:28:49 I rarely have any trouble telling, on a technical mailing list, who's American and who's not. 02:29:01 jcowan: sure, because we don't bother Americanising stuff. 02:29:12 but we can, easily enough... 02:29:14 You mean Americanizing it? 02:29:44 Am:center -> Br:centre 02:29:45 i have my ways of telling who's american online -- and they don't involve spelling :) 02:29:57 Canadian English is another source of British spelling. Mostly. 02:30:11 asumu: yeah, though i guess younger generations also use american spellings. 02:30:13 Except for oddities like "washroom" 02:30:17 asumu: officially both are used in canada 02:30:25 asumu: right, it's a hybrid 02:31:08 canada is that middle ground where there will be policies that are either US, Brit, or don't care. 02:32:44 jcowan: american co-workers always picked on my brit spelling in source comments. :) 02:33:15 You should have told them to stuff it. 02:33:23 to bugger off? 02:34:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:47 Quite so. 02:37:05 -!- jrslepak is now known as slepakjr 02:38:05 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 02:40:02 AmE: "tire center" (place where you buy automobile tires). BrE: "tyre centre". CanE: "tire centre" 02:40:17 To a Brit a "tire centre" would be somewhere that you go to get tired! 02:43:15 *FurnaceBoy* is tired 02:43:55 what's fexprs? 02:44:54 might be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr 02:44:54 adu: looks like non-eager evaluation arguments 02:47:50 run-time macro expansion. 02:49:44 interesting 02:51:47 ski: Oh, okay. Good point. 02:51:58 ski: it's read only access 02:53:09 Unless, of course, I change what x is to a different lambda... maybe 02:56:33 Oh, right, (counterexample) would have terminated by that point. 02:57:36 fexpr work "well" with dynamic binding. It's much harder to make them work "well" with lexical binding. 02:58:28 jcowan: I'm an American who grew up overseas, so I used both spellings interchangeably for a while, but to an American the British spellings are "wrong". i.e. I'd constantly get into flamewars with people who think that American English is the only English. 02:59:16 To an idiot American, that is. 02:59:21 *jcowan* is not an idiot. 02:59:32 It's kind of like writing (defun (function-name bar) (do-stuff)) in Lisp after using Scheme, except it's not an error, since humans are (except on IRC) not as strict as compilers/interpreters. 02:59:48 jcowan: To most Americans who have never left the country. 03:00:01 I guess I'm not an idiot then 03:00:02 America is big so a lot never leave the States. 03:00:15 I lived in Japan 03:00:18 I've only left it a few times, never for more than a few weeks. 03:00:36 I actually saw something on Hacker News a few weeks ago (I wish I bookmarked it) where someone corrected the correct British English spelling of a word to the American word in a one-word reply. 03:00:41 pjb : well, it *happens* that there's on-topic talk in #emacs .. 03:00:42 I mean, I'd expect that on reddit, not HN 03:00:46 pjb : i suppose AutoLISP would go in #list-lab, then (?) 03:02:43 jcowan: Well, someone who uses Scheme is probably an outlier, let alone someone who is heavily involved in r7rs. 03:03:09 Blub programmers are scared of the parentheses before they even really *try* Lisp or Scheme. 03:03:18 There are my-way-or-the-highway people in all countries, of course. 03:03:48 I wrote some years ago that it would suck to see the Grey Company (in _The Lord of the Rings_) as the Gray Company 03:03:53 Imagery totally wrong. 03:04:01 Yes. 03:04:04 Aethaeryn : `x' is accessed before (the procedure currently stored in) `side-effects-are-evil' is called -- what is passed is the value which was stored in `x', `x' itself is not passed 03:04:31 ski: Yes, the value is passed. 03:04:38 It's a mistake 03:05:46 ski: You're technically correct. 03:06:36 jcowan: It's better to consider yourself an idiot. 03:06:39 Aethaeryn : you *could* pass `(lambda () x)' or `(lambda (v) (set! x v))' instead, but i'd in that case still claim that `x' (the *identifier*) can still only be accessed in the lexical scope -- though it *is* true that in this case the location which `x' is bound to can be accessed outside the dynamic extent of the `let' 03:06:45 jcowan: I was actually offended that they 'translated' Harry Potter into American English. First of all, something taking place in England is now using incorrect spellings. Secondly... really? Americans are seen as that stupid by publishers that they must *translate* it into American English? Wow. 03:07:00 Unless, it was just 'minor' things like changing the title of the first book, but I doubt it. 03:07:12 It offended me too. 03:07:25 No wonder some people think that the American spelling is the only correct spelling. 03:07:43 This is pretty common. Video games are made easier for American editions. Movies are sometimes censored. etc. 03:07:54 Even if you think that, correcting a stranger's spelling is damn rude. People even do it in porn sites. 03:08:06 ski: Yes, I suppose you could discuss AutoLISP on #lisp-lab. But I don't think a lot of autolisp users are on irc. 03:08:08 (Aethaeryn : namely, e.g. if you pass `(lambda () x)', then when that procedure is later called, computation will *reenter* the lexical scope, and thus there is no problem with `x' being accessed while this prodecure is evaluating) 03:08:20 ski: are there SAP users on irc? 03:08:32 ski: are there COBOL programmers on irc? 03:09:00 *ski* isn't even sure what `SAP' is 03:09:09 Isn't that a statistics language/program? 03:09:16 I just joined #cobol; there are two other users. 03:09:23 (perhaps i should be happy in my ignorance) 03:09:48 pjb: there are even C programmers on irc. 03:10:17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Philosopher's_Stone#U.S._publication_and_reception 03:10:18 jcowan: "People even do it in porn sites." // TIL 03:10:23 So, yup, they changed it. 03:10:39 Aethaeryn: dude, they remake whole movies in order to set them within the USA and sell better. 03:10:41 "No, you idiot, it's spelled C-U-M! Get it right!!" 03:10:47 jcowan: ohnoes 03:10:58 *jcowan* speaks from experience 03:11:04 *FurnaceBoy* nods 03:11:15 FurnaceBoy: Well, yes, but they also remake American movies that were released a few years ago, too. 03:11:16 jcowan: those were rethorical questions. Actually, there are a couple of Cobol compilers on unix that are quite nice. 03:11:24 And emacs has a cobol-mode. 03:11:27 e.g. Spiderman, apparently 03:11:52 I played around with OpenCobol a little bit once, to see if it would be possible to provide a preprocessor that would accept Dibol instead. 03:12:11 Aethaeryn: right, right, there are remakes for various reasons, none good. but "changing to american characters and locations and English script" is a popular one. 03:12:17 Alas, there is a fundamental mismatch between Cobol and Dibol I/O 03:12:29 jcowan: pardon me while i go cry in my pillow for a bit. 03:12:32 There is only one reason for remakes. 03:12:37 jcowan: MONEY. 03:12:38 Somebody should write a killer-app in Cobol so that every linux user install the cobol compiler to run that must-have application ;-) 03:12:46 jcowan: yes, if you want to get reductive. 03:12:49 A Web browser would be good. 03:12:58 jcowan: what reason? 03:13:05 pjb: Almighty buck. 03:13:16 pjb: French cinema has suffered more than most from remake-a-mania 03:13:26 pjb: as source material. because it's so damned good. 03:13:37 La Cage aux Folles and Three Men and a Baby being examples 03:14:02 and countless others / actually one wonders why Amélie wasn't remade and set in, say, Portland 03:14:04 *FurnaceBoy* giggles 03:14:09 *jcowan* likes foreign films, too, another un-American feature. But then I live in NYC, which is Europe manque 03:14:10 AFAIK, the only reasons for remakes are commercial: people have forgotten old movies because they don't have a copy on their hard disks, so companies may make new versions only for commercial reasons, assuming they couldn't attract customers to watch the old movies. 03:14:18 *Aethaeryn* writes a tiling window manager in Objective Cobol. 03:14:19 Or I should say, Europe only with money. 03:14:35 pjb: commercial, yes. they'll chase any %. 03:14:37 jcowan: would you include Mixed Nuts in the lot? 03:14:51 *jcowan* remakes 2001: A Space Odyssey using a CGI renderer written in Cobol. 03:14:53 pjb: regardless of artistic merit or propriety 03:14:56 exxmonad, for former xmonad users who want to use Cobol instead of Haskell. 03:14:59 jcowan: lol 03:15:08 -!- phao [phao@177.115.48.21] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:11 jcowan: now, see, in the right hands, that could be exceptional... 03:15:25 We can have an all-Austrian cast 03:15:31 (or all-lesbian, same thing) 03:15:39 jcowan: no, really, 96% of the remake for aculturation reason are quite bad. 03:15:45 jcowan: but i expect to hear any day now "George Lucas has decided to pay the ultimate homage to his creative influences, and announced a CGI remake of '2001' to be launched in IMAX 3D in 2016..." 03:15:52 pjb: yes. 03:15:55 pjb: awful, in fact. 03:16:09 pjb: Certainly I agree 03:16:16 jcowan: "starring Scrat the Squirrel..." 03:16:19 having seen both versions of LCaF and TMaaB 03:16:31 The worst offender being Mixed Nuts = Le père Noël est une ordure. 03:16:44 Don't know either of those. 03:16:52 There are a few that are passable, like Three Men and a Baby or True Lies = La Totale. 03:17:21 I couldn't tolerate the U.S. version of the former 03:17:26 jcowan: well, watch them both. (Le père Noël est une ordure is also a movie made after a theater play, so you can watch both). 03:17:49 Life is too short to watch bad movies to prove a point to myself that I already accept, thanks. 03:18:00 ski: Okay, is (define x (let ((x (cons a b))) x)) a valid counterexample of sorts, then? 03:18:05 jcowan: but indeed, even American remakes of old American movies are bad in general. 03:18:10 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-247-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:36 Well, for SciFi, they have the advantage of better special effects, but that's all. 03:19:06 jcowan: oh, you don't like Plan 9 From Outer Space then? 03:19:15 Never saw it either. 03:19:22 Or Zombies of the Stratosphere? 03:19:25 Plan 9 from Empty Space, that I like. 03:19:28 FurnaceBoy: 2001: Now with lightsaber fights! 03:19:31 (also Plan 9 from Bell Labs) 03:19:33 Aethaeryn: yeah :| 03:19:36 FurnaceBoy: And establishing a continuity with the Star Wars galaxy! 03:19:47 FurnaceBoy: The aliens... are from that galaxy far far away! 03:19:48 Aethaeryn: stop, stop... 03:19:54 And they teach us about Luke! 03:20:04 jcowan: is it time for a Bladerunner remake yet? 03:20:07 A lightsaber fight on the holodeck between Bowman and HAL. When HAL loses, he has to shut down his memory boards one by one. 03:20:19 FurnaceBoy: It's a decade overdue, don't give people ideas 03:20:25 HAL turns out to be R2D2's father? 03:21:18 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 03:22:08 Well, cheesy movies are funny. But not bad remakes. 03:22:14 FurnaceBoy: Yes, thanks to a cyclical time loop, HAL winds up teaching the Star Wars universe a long time *before* Star Wars I how to make droids. 03:22:21 FurnaceBoy: And Yoda's soul is in the monoliths. 03:22:33 "I am your father, Artoo." (twitter-twitter-twitter) "Not FARTHER, FATHER!" (twitter-twitter-twitter-twitter-twitter) 03:22:48 R2 tweets? 03:22:52 jcowan: Thanks for ruining that movie for me. 03:23:30 *jcowan* actually likes crossovers very much. 03:23:42 There is some fan fiction that is Harry Potter x Miles Vorkosigan, for example. 03:23:45 *FurnaceBoy* backs away from jcowan 03:23:48 Yes, you introduced *Star Trek* to this too, jcowan 03:23:49 And I also like Buffy x West Wing 03:23:50 Holodeck and all 03:24:17 So now we have George Lucas doing Star Wars meets Star Trek (probably the alternative timeline from the new movie just because) meets 2001? 03:24:30 Hey, it's plausible, since they inserted ET into Star Wars 03:24:56 i hate you all 03:25:18 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ET 03:25:26 Yes, ET is now Wookieepedia SW canon 03:25:53 Now, it would be funny indeed to mix ST and SW. But since SW is a galaxy far far away, nothing says those people are the same size than in our galaxy. They're probably much smaller. So the Death Star would probably be just a micro-meteorite disintegrated by the Enterprize shields. 03:26:38 Aethaeryn : i'm commonly offended by "creative" film title translation. i also don't like dubbing, preferring the original voices, with subtitles if required .. 03:27:01 Aethaeryn : well, that's an example of shadowing, which i covered 03:28:05 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:52 phao [phao@177.115.48.21] has joined #scheme 03:29:57 I'm surprised there was no crossover in the new Indiana Jones (did I follow the RFC for spoilers?) because with the aliens (!!!) and all, they certainly could of 03:30:46 *ski* hasn't seen the recent "The Extraordinary Adventures of Adèle Blanc-Sec" movie adaption of two albums, don't know whether it's any good 03:30:51 You'd want a pretty small bomb to nuke a fridge. 03:31:13 pjb: There are actually fan wars between Star Trek and Star Wars because the *dimensions* of the ships are published. Obviously, the Star Wars ships/weapons are giant, implausible, and overpowered. So Star Wars fanboys say "OMG, we'd totally pwn any Star Trek ship" and the Star Trek fanboys say "OMG, Star Wars is so unrealistic!" 03:31:21 Because, of course, Star Trek follows physics perfectly 03:31:35 (Oh, and the counter to "unrealistic" is usually "but it's more interesting", which is very objective) 03:31:45 ski: well, it's a lost art. Before the 70's, there were good people able to translate movie titles and to make good dubbings (actually earlier they even shot the movie in several languages). But nowadays it's awful. 03:31:47 (but i'm disappointed that Adèle is shown *smiling* (when not intoxicated) at some trailer picture ..) 03:31:58 (To which the counter could be "but Star Trek is more philosophical", which tries to spin Star Trek V as a good thing.) 03:32:01 Then there's the 90-million-mile-long golden ship in Cordwainer Smith's story "Golden the ship was -- oh, oh oh!" 03:32:35 Aethaeryn: they're an obvious cross over with the Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls. 03:32:44 ski: Subtitles are preferable, yes. Imagine if they dubbed, e.g. operas! 03:33:03 pjb : yes, but i still prefer hearing the original language, with the original actors (i can understand what dubbing might be preferable for some in some cases, if it's done well, though) 03:34:07 The Italian versions of Abbott and Costello were dubbed by actors who spoke Italian with thick American accents. 03:34:27 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #scheme 03:34:46 And I noticed that older movies (eg. before the 60's) weren't even subtitled when different languages were spoken. I assume after WWII, people were acustomed to hearing different languages :-) 03:35:29 Or merely they were less dumb than nowadays. http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/taking-on-board-that-victorians-were.html 03:35:30 http://tinyurl.com/bllmw3g 03:35:31 No, zey just spoken in veird foreign eccents instead. 03:35:48 Hmm... Are Lispers and Schemers on average *smarter* than the general population? Has there been any study? 03:36:18 Unlikely. 03:36:29 "There are geniuses in every field of human activity." --Richard Feyman 03:36:32 Feynman, even 03:36:49 It should be relatively easy to test. Go to a few language-oriented conferences, and make people pass a test (promize some perk lottery). 03:36:50 *ski* . o O ( "Sailor Hellblazer! a Sailor Moon / John Constantine: Hellblazer crossover" ) 03:37:14 pjb: I wonder which conference would score the lowest. 03:37:22 (a few Raspberry Pi for example). 03:37:24 php? 03:37:48 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:37:49 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:38:05 I immediately thought PHP, but JavaScript Google results have been *awful*, probably dragging down the smart people with people who put together websites by copying and pasting from Google (i.e. the demand in search is for the latter because there's more of the latter) 03:38:05 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:38:53 pjb: I have no idea why that blog post conflates reaction time with intelligence. 03:39:26 I can't Google effectively for JavaScript with the habits I use for other languages. Maybe that's a bug with me, though. 03:39:28 But the intelligence tests we use today have had to be restandardized twice because of a global rise in measured-intelligence. If IQ were really intelligence, almost all our grandfathers were subnormals. 03:39:56 jcowan: And I'm not that optimistic. 03:40:11 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@2001:5c0:1000:b::f87] has left #scheme 03:40:18 Although, it's hard to compare generations. 03:40:19 They weren't. My father was born in 1904. Nothing wrong with his brains. 03:40:28 All the low-hanging fruits were taken. 03:40:40 i.e. to do something original, you often have to do something no one wants or something really hard 03:40:46 Or something related to a brand new thing. 03:41:00 Someone had to once invent, say, the concept of a triangle 03:41:08 Or Lisp 03:41:46 No one cares if you independently rediscover Lisp 60 years later (if such a thing were possible in the era of the Internet) 03:41:51 jcowan: google for intelligence reaction time 03:41:57 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:42:16 Aethaeryn : these are perhaps interesting : , 03:42:38 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:50 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 03:42:51 pjb: Thanks 03:42:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect 03:44:03 Well, when making current pupil pass scholar exams of 100 or 200 years ago, they don't show any increase in ingelligence or knowledge, even if they can use a gameboy or a computer 03:44:47 Sure, but 100 years ago far fewer people were expected to ever take such tests. 03:45:28 All IQ tests are descended indirectly from Binet's work, but through the U.S. Army tests in the 1914-18 war. 03:45:58 Well, in France almost every child went to school at least until 14 yo. 03:46:31 pjb: of course -- why would ppl think technology enhances intelligence?! 03:46:36 pjb: or lessens ignorance? 03:46:43 pjb: if anything, anecdotes point the other way! 03:46:53 And also, army tests (until they stopped conscription a few years ago) showed a decline in reading/writing/counting aptitude lately, which you can easily witness by yourself. 03:47:03 pjb: right. 03:47:15 Even enterprises are complaining they can't find people with basic skills. 03:47:35 Now, all right, it's not exactly intelligence, it's the failure of education systems. 03:48:24 But if people were intelligent, they'd stop relying on a failed education system, and they'd find another way to educate their children. 03:49:53 -!- turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:50:47 FurnaceBoy: the problem with anecdotes (e.g. the awful spelling/grammar of some in text messages, twitter, chats, etc.) is that there are counterexplanations (e.g. 1000+ years ago, most people were illiterate and the writing that survived is from the very educated, and now even the 'uneducated' read/write regularly) 03:51:49 Well, there was more natural selection. The dumb probably died earlier. 03:51:52 pjb: Maybe the army now targets a different demographic? Or did they test *everyone*? 03:52:05 In which case, there could always be a cultural bias in the test if they didn't change. 03:52:07 eg. the dumb and criminal were hung early. 03:52:09 Tests can have culture tests. 03:52:13 They couldn't reproduce. 03:52:41 pjb: Yes, but these days a smart person is more likely to be a well-off (i.e. financially/wealthy) person because social mobility is easier. 03:52:51 And more money means better medical care (at least in the US) 03:53:02 In some countries, yes. 03:53:27 s/Tests can have culture tests./Tests can have cultural biases. 03:53:40 I type faster than I can think. :-P 03:53:58 Aethaeryn : hm, that about "No one cares if you ..." reminded my of "Science and Pseudoscience" (see mp3 and transcript) 03:54:00 http://tinyurl.com/7bereun 03:54:10 Also universal schooling means that the education system can destroy all the genious children. This should limit a lot the high end IQs. 03:54:51 Yes, that too. 03:55:09 Education destroys what you need to be the very best. Sure, the second tier people just clean up and/or implement someone else's work. 03:55:14 But creative people need a leap. 03:55:46 pjb: Isn't why there's "layered" courses in public education? 03:55:48 pjb: there's always homeschooling 03:56:06 *that why 03:56:08 adu: it's forbidden in a lot of places. 03:56:12 woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has joined #scheme 03:56:16 adu: I've come to the conclusion that when I have kids (which could be 15 years from now, I'm young), I'll probably have no choice but to homeschool. 03:56:17 pjb: like where? 03:56:22 At least, as a guarantee of quality. 03:56:35 Aethaeryn: good choice 03:56:39 In France for example, but also it's difficult in the USA. (cf. Waco). 03:56:40 Aethaeryn: Where do you live? 03:56:45 I can't micromanage teachers who have to teach large classrooms. And if my kids are like me, I personally learn best outside of the classroom. 03:56:56 pjb: have you heard of John Titor? 03:56:57 youlysses: The United States. 03:57:12 The name rings a bell, I must have read a book of his. 03:57:39 Ah, no, the time traveler. I was thinking of somebody else. 03:57:49 pjb: It helps if you don't have children with a dozen mistresses, and stockpile firearms, and refuse to cooperate with the ATF. (w.r.t Waco) 03:58:03 pjb: he claims to come from the year 2036, where he uses Waco as an example for how sht* sucks in the future 03:58:09 It wasn't due to homeschooling that they did the Waco siege. 03:58:20 (If it's something else... then "cf. Waco" is insufficient) 03:59:10 Honestly, it should be a priority for anyone who has kids to code up a better education system (automated, in Lisp of course) 03:59:25 lol 03:59:43 Aethaeryn: I doubt coursera is programmed in lisp. Probably in php and javascript like everything else. 03:59:43 The Khan Academy moves too slowly, in part because they have to record videos for everything, and they follow other people's cirriculum so it's a supplement, not a replacement, and it's only math. 03:59:59 Aethaeryn: no, not only math. 04:00:07 They even started to do programming. 04:00:07 pjb: Okay, I haven't been there in forever 04:00:09 Khan Academy has several other subjects too, I believe 04:00:12 But it still moves slowly 04:00:20 And it's not radical enough. 04:00:31 The problem with, e.g. math, is that they're emphasizing the wrong things. 04:00:32 Stanford and MITx 04:00:38 Aethaeryn: what would you consider to be "radical enough"? 04:00:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:00:53 Aethaeryn: My experience with public education has varied. (St.Louis, Missouri reporting in). I was in "advanced classes" up until 6th grade, I started to get bored with school and grades drastically dropped. The momentum has never built it's self back up. I've always been a "self-learner" and hated going at the set pace, but the only good thing public education has forced me into was decent communtication skills. :-L 04:01:09 Well, for a start, they still don't deliver diplomas, only certificates. :- 04:01:10 ) 04:01:16 mhr_: Well, the way Lisp programming is done (at least, as they claim online) is to not plan up front, but kind of do it as you go along. e.g. the SICP videos on YouTube mention something like this 04:01:23 My daughter got an excellent public education in selected NYC schools, all paid for by the taxpayers (including me) 04:01:24 It's funny, they invented something like Agile/XP decades early! 04:01:34 Aethaeryn: So did Fred Brooks. 04:01:50 mhr_: So by the time someone finished the program they'd have something totally different than what they started with, so any specification here on IRC before they even start is useless. 04:02:19 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 04:02:24 FurnaceBoy: Mythical Man Month should be mandatory reading for any MBA who wants to work at a software company. 04:02:25 Aethaeryn: the existence of a REPL plays into this. 04:02:46 actually Quadrescence can probably discuss exploratory programming + Lisp 04:02:52 FurnaceBoy: And yes, I find myself only really able to have fun in REPL languages (not just Lisp, e.g. Python counts too) 04:03:09 I really don't understand how langauges can be made today that do *NOT* have a repl 04:03:16 Aethaeryn: i'm finding that the best languages have REPLs, but I'll make an exception for Python... 04:03:27 There's a new C repl, I've seen this week. 04:03:40 about math teaching in Sweden,USA,Japan,China : "Time for accountance" by Olle Häggström in 2004 at 04:03:40 http://tinyurl.com/7qox5fh 04:03:43 (which is an english translation of the swedish original at ) 04:03:47 http://neugierig.org/software/c-repl/ 04:03:49 It's the Stalin REPL I really want. Alas, there's a deep problem with mutable state. 04:03:52 pjb: how much exploratory work do you do in REPL? you're one of the most experienced lispers in here. 04:03:59 Aethaeryn: How young are you ...? I'm 19 nearly 20, and think 15 years from now might be about the right time to have a kid. :-L 04:04:13 21 nearly 22 04:04:17 pjb: hardly new, it was last updated in 2008 04:04:23 youlysses: just quietly, there's no "right time". it just happens, and you deal. right, jcowan? 04:04:25 :-) 04:04:40 youlysses: And yes, the end result of schooling was to make me bored and arrogant by middle school. 04:04:47 Aethaeryn: Oh ok. I imagined like 30 - 35 ish. :-P 04:04:49 I'd beg to differ. Have children as early as you can. 04:04:49 It moves slowly, emphasizes the wrong things, and is all around wrong and boring. 04:04:55 pjb: well, sort of. 04:05:00 That is, as soon as you find a good wife. 04:05:02 pjb: it's the planners who really seem odd. :) 04:05:06 pjb: With no money? 04:05:10 Yes. 04:05:14 pjb: You forget that Americans have lots of... debt before they even start working. 04:05:15 Aethaeryn: well, like i say, there is no "right time". 04:05:22 Aethaeryn: but you... kind of have to do it to know that :) 04:05:22 pjb: We graduate with *negative* money. 04:05:34 Aethaeryn: and that should not be happening. 04:05:41 Well, you need a minimum, but if you have a job it's ok. 04:05:53 do Europeans and foreign college graduates have the same problem as Americans do? 04:05:54 That's something that should not occur indeed. 04:06:03 FurnaceBoy: well, yes there is a right time to have kids, and that's when I'm bored with my current projects and want to write a better education system. 04:06:10 Aethaeryn: you can raise a kid on next to nothing. but ppl like to think "oh, one day we'll be ready". that, in my opinion, is crazy talk. 04:06:17 Aethaeryn: I'll give you that, I was started getting very bored and became arrogant very arrogant around then ... :-L 04:06:25 you're never ready. but you deal. :) 04:06:25 FurnaceBoy: I'm a little eccentric 04:06:37 FurnaceBoy: Yes, the computer program will never be ready, but at some point it'll be good enough. 04:06:48 Aethaeryn: i mean personally ready. 04:06:54 I had my first child at 29. 04:07:00 Aethaeryn: it's a challenge that you can neither anticipate, nor defer. 04:07:09 FurnaceBoy: Yes, the joke is that my special case I mentioned earlier literally has an objective prerequisite 04:07:16 jcowan: did you say "now we're ready! Honey let's procreate!" 04:07:19 *FurnaceBoy* bets not. 04:07:24 Aethaeryn: If your in Compsci, you're probally either eccentric, or a bore. :-P 04:07:25 And I wasn't in debt then at all (went to a public university). Now I've got a 4-year-old grandson and I'm heavily in debt. Life is funny. 04:07:30 *FurnaceBoy* bets it was more like, "I'm pregnant." "HOLY SHIT" 04:07:33 FurnaceBoy: No, we had to adopt. 04:07:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:07:38 jcowan: ah. 04:07:40 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:07:45 jcowan: then you're the exception 04:07:55 jcowan: THAT is planned, i guess. 04:07:59 youlysses: I'm an extrovert among comp sci majors, an introvert everywhere else. :-P 04:08:37 My dad was a lawyer among the philosophers, a systems scientist among the lawyers, and a philosopher among the systems scientists. 04:08:43 The triangular trade. 04:09:12 Aethaeryn: Same here. I have no "need" for other human contact, but put me arround "my kind of people" and I'm a chatty as my parents ... 04:09:13 heh 04:09:54 Aethaeryn: I'm pretty sure people think all outwardly introverts are 100% anti-social. 04:11:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:11:52 It's really more about whether human contact recharges you or drains you. 04:12:18 I like the company of my kind of people a lot, but I still feel drained afterwards and need time in solitude (or nearly so) to recover. With people I don't like, the drain goes a lot faster. 04:12:28 youlysses: I'm not anti-social, I just know a ton of esoteric knowledge and not a lot of popular knowledge, so I can't related to the unenlightened ones. ;-P 04:12:34 My wife and I both prefer each other's company to solitude, which for introverts is a high compliment. 04:13:00 jcowan: For some reason, the drain doesn't seem to happen on IRC, perhaps because it's just typing into a terminal 04:13:04 So I'm *very* chatty on IRC. 04:14:37 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:14:59 jcowan: wow 04:15:04 Aethaeryn: I think you're brain registers it as a "magic box", and not a person on the other end, even though we are conciously aware of it. Also we're free to respond on "our time" :-P 04:15:14 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #scheme 04:15:17 jcowan: i'm.. not even sure i can say the same. at least for some periods. 04:15:17 Aethaeryn : have noticed that as well 04:15:42 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:42 I think it's the time and freedom not to respond more than the terminal. 04:15:54 youlysses : plus there's a backlog 04:16:06 youlysses: Technically, everyone I haven't met in RL who is on IRC could just be turing-test passing IRC bots. 04:16:11 I once was posting about Lisp-style exact ratios, and I used 355/113 as an example. 04:16:31 I got back a private email saying "Isn't it amazing how much emotion a simple fraction can communicate between people?" 04:16:34 I could only agree. 04:16:45 *youlysses* alerts the matrix. Aethaeryn is on to us... 04:16:58 *ski* has been taken for a robot on IRC .. 04:17:29 Hey, I am accused of being a robot IRL 04:18:06 -!- RITRedbeard__ [~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:35 MichaelRaskin: either you are, and then your accusator passed the Turing Test, or you aren't and he failed. 04:18:57 jcowan: Ah, good point. If I'm not in a good mood I can pretend not to be on my computer as long as I do a /whois query and find out that I have been idle for a decent amount of time 04:19:06 (Yes, I take into account that someone could /whois me for idle time) 04:19:19 *ski* . o O ( "J'Accuse .." ) 04:19:22 The freedom not to respond makes IRC very voluntary. 04:19:47 and derirable to use 04:20:20 I can't stay logged in all the time because I would feel compelled to read the *whole* backlog before saying anything. So I'm only here, in general, when I'm *here*. But I can always ignore people I don't want to respond to without offense. 04:20:47 re (posted a little while back)... I think that's what got me to try Lisp. That and pg's website. 04:21:36 (Aethaeryn : "Yes, I take .." -- who doesn't :) 04:22:25 Aethaeryn: for me it was Erik Naggum. Then Robert Smith who said "not CL. learn Scheme" 04:23:24 *ski* tried to read backlog of first IRC channel -- eventually, after it had grown, it got ridiculous 04:23:35 jcowan: I used to read the whole backlogs. Then I became a regular on Freenode. The channels here are too large, but I suppose I could `tail -n 1000 LOG | grep -v '\-!\-'` and remove the joins/parts/quit, which would probably make some channel logs drop more than 50% in size 04:24:14 Aethaeryn: meh, you're presupposing value. 04:24:26 I guess the value of IRC logs when you idle is that you could, theoretically, data mine the. I actually did this once when I was the op of a large channel, looking for e.g. ban evaders who had certain patterns of speech 04:24:35 gavino. 04:24:44 if only we were proof against. 04:24:51 *jcowan* bans FurnaceBoy for so much as mentioning him 04:24:59 jcowan: he kiboises? 04:25:10 jcowan: wouldn't be my first k/b ... make my day! 04:25:12 (in the olden days, there would often be interesting ior funny parts to find in the backlog of #scheme, e.g.) 04:25:25 FurnaceBoy: The thing is, IRC logs would be of value, if I could parse them instantly in my head. There's always *something* one could learn from reading something, it's just that there's far too much information available via the Internet so you have to be selective 04:25:46 Aethaeryn: i go to books for the important stuff. 04:25:54 I mean, I'm sure I could learn something even by, e.g., reading about COBOL. Just not enough to make it worthwhile. 04:26:33 http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/cobol-horrors.html <-- Well, read this, it'll only take a few minutes and you'll learn something. 04:26:57 I actually wrote a program in COBOL once. 04:27:06 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:27:37 I was told by my family to give my mom a custom mother's day card that counts. Everyone else in my family found nice photos online and printed them out and folded them into a card. I procrastinated. Running out of ideas, I wrote a COBOL program for the card's "picture" 04:27:50 Since she programmed in COBOL in the 1980s. 04:27:56 Thankfully, she thought it was hilarious. 04:28:36 I did learn that COBOL is awful, though. 04:29:58 hm -- was it a punchcard ? 04:30:25 My mom only dealt with punchcards once, that's a different story. 04:30:29 I did make the text green, though. 04:32:42 I did write and debug my Cobol program on a punch card. I recommend the experience. 04:33:10 pjb: Where do you work? 04:33:13 Or was that just for fun? 04:33:23 " It's like C enums, but in hell." hahaha 04:33:27 It was in the Armée de l'Air in 1983. 04:33:49 Aethaeryn: it wasn't just for fun, but it was fun. I like big irons :-) 04:34:27 Of course, the next year I bought a Macintosh that was basically as powerful as that mainframe (I/O and MMU excluded) :-) 04:34:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:20 I wonder how that mainframe compares to my phone 04:36:28 IBM 3031: 4 MB RAM, 16 MB VM, A few 128 MB HD. 04:36:56 http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP3031.html 04:37:37 How do you even fit programs or data in 128 MB? 04:38:25 I don't know what frequency, but the Macintosh was 8 MHz, so it was probably on that order (or less). 04:38:46 adu: Even the Raspberry Pi has 64x the RAM. I wonder how much cheaper it is than that mainframe. 04:39:25 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-205.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:40:06 Aethaeryn: well, after that, my first job was on a ICL S-35, a clone of IBM S35. Since the memory was allocated if fixed size partitions to the users (4 KW per user, plus two 16 KW users), and since the disks were full of user data, we just didn't use the Cobol compiler, but write the programs in assembler :-) 04:40:18 Aethaeryn: the url above gives the prices. 04:40:23 Aethaeryn: I think the mainframe cost more than $25 04:41:29 I maintained the "customer" database. When I started, the listing was 20 cm high. When I left it was less than 7 cm high, and the program had a lot more features. :-) 04:41:58 jcowan : hehe, when i showed that link to someone, that said "I'm impressed this person remembers this much cobol", "cobol's gotten this mythic status as a bad language", "we wrote productive code in it", "it wasn't terribly insane" 04:42:21 Aethaeryn: the first Mac was 128KB. 04:42:29 Aethaeryn: not 128MB. 04:42:32 Cobol is a DSL language. It's to be used by managers. 04:42:44 As such, it's a failure: they still hire programmers to use it. 04:42:44 Aethaeryn: and i have machines with < 128KB. PDP-11s, for example. 04:42:50 Tell him I wrote a version of finger(1) for TOPS-10 in Cobol, because the guy who wanted it written said he could get maintenance programmers for Cobol easy. 04:42:59 jcowan: urk 04:43:09 Managers were only meant to be able to *read* it. 04:43:17 jcowan: wouldn't it have been easier to use assembler? 04:43:22 jcowan : hehe, when i mentioned that like to someone, they said "I'm impressed this person remembers this much cobol", "cobol's gotten this mythic status as a bad language", "we wrote productive code in it", "it wasn't terribly insane" 04:43:34 ski: EXACTLY what people say about PHP. 04:43:40 pjb: I think we need to start printing out programs on punchcards again, not for executing but rather so we can measure length in terms of cm instead of line counts. 04:43:47 "I can do stuff with it / therefore i can't work out why people bitch" 04:44:02 or, my co-workr, today, said "I don't get the rants. If you don't like it, just don't use it" 04:44:06 "when I graduated from college if you were a run of the mill programmer you ended up with a cobol job", "us hackers thought that was hell", "which is most of why COBOL has this exaggerated bad rep", "it actually had some very sane things" 04:44:08 That's not really possible. The sources of Firefox are > 50MB 04:45:13 "eg - it was designed for fixed width fields (as was everything else then)", "you could have multiple overlays describing data, a sort of C 'union' on steroids.", "and you could, as the guy says, copy fields by name", "and the thing of file names having to be in the enviornment variable didnt' last long", "and when I wrote cobol for a living in 1978 or so we had subroutines", "I wrote an editor in it." 04:45:20 Is the new COBOL PHP, Java, or...? 04:45:27 Aethaeryn: C++ 04:45:42 Aethaeryn: but all those others are obsolete too. 04:46:05 Java was called the new Cobol. 04:46:07 FurnaceBoy: Java was obsolete before it was invented by that standard of obsolete 04:46:12 Perhaps it's displaced by PHP, yes. 04:46:18 Aethaeryn: yes, it's been said. 04:46:32 -!- langmartin [~user@68-186-113-4.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:46:36 A sharp observer would notice I said earlier that Lisp was "discovered" and now I'm using "invented" for Java. 04:46:45 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:46:50 PHP is getting to the point where intellignet people don't need to discuss it, period. 04:46:50 "it was good enough that it was the Java of it's day -", "oh, and it has macros", "amazingly", "calls them COPYBOOK", "you can define a file full of pieces of cobol code to be transcluded into your program" 04:47:36 Aethaeryn: the sources of mozilla-1.9.2, just the C and C++ sources and headers, are 4261975 lines. That's 64575 pages! 04:48:10 That's 6.4575 meter high! 04:48:29 pjb: Okay, well, we could write a program to simulate writing them to punchcards, then. 04:48:30 next time, write a program in whitespace that looks like a COBOL program -- manager happy, hacker happy. 04:48:32 It's simple math. 04:48:50 punch-card.scm ; I had to check which Lisp-like channel I was in for the extension here. 04:49:21 Is each 80 character line a punch card? How do we handle lines that are longer? Unicode? 04:49:30 "you can define a file full of pieces of cobol code to be transcluded into your program", "oh, and weirdly enough, it shares with Clojure the use of - as an identifier char", "WORKING-STORAGE", "and has some facilities for literate programming, in the form of optional keywords that", "can be added to make code read better" 04:49:34 COBOL was the Java of the 60's :) 04:50:09 iiuc, some Forth systems have "code pages" with fixed-width lines, as well 04:50:12 Aethaeryn: http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php 04:50:18 Yeah, I made a point of writing my Cobol code in as abbreviated a style as possible. 04:50:26 I was young and snotty at the time. 04:50:35 Aethaeryn: there was a continuation column that when filled indicated that it was a continuation card. 04:50:58 is that how call/cc was invented? :) 04:51:44 :-) No, but funnily enough, the continuation column was filled on the following card, not like the C \ at the end of the previous line. 04:53:10 pjb: unfortunately that link doesn't support continuations 04:53:34 A lot of our IRC chat here wouldn't fit on one punched card a line 04:54:24 "O'Keefe made a positive comment about COBOL in 'the craft of Prolog'", "he pointed out that they Prolog clauses are similar to Cobol paragraphs.", "it was actually an early attempt to make an english-like programming language", "the Environment Division wasn't a bad thing", "the idea was that all external references (eg file names)", "had to occur in one place" 04:54:35 phao_ [phao@177.174.109.171] has joined #scheme 04:54:43 pjb: http://tinyurl.com/punchedcard 04:54:45 It just truncates 04:54:48 -!- phao [phao@177.115.48.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:55:09 oh, and apparently tinyurls let you set aliases 04:55:58 "well, it's interesting to see how cobol was oriented towards the 80 col card and fixed records", "programming languages aren't neutral about what they expect us to DO with our computers" 04:56:22 ski: wait, wait, ROK wrote a Prolog book?! 04:56:31 ski: <3 ROK 04:56:37 "The Craft of Prolog", sure 04:56:45 i'll look out for this. 04:56:46 it's great :D 04:56:50 ROK is an unsung genius. 04:57:07 or maybe a sung one but i don't hang in the right clubs. 04:57:40 ski: that book goes on my bucket list. 04:57:42 Aethaeryn: as it should. You must create your continuation cards yourself. 04:57:57 Notice that the continuation column and the usual character to put there depends on the programming language. 04:58:08 (her was originally going to call it "Practical Prolog", but someone else got ahead of him and published a book under that name) 04:58:17 (s/her/he/) 04:58:48 ski: Well, LISP also started on punched cards, but it didn't constraint itself to that medium. 04:59:39 *ski* nods 04:59:42 The only relic of that is that PRINT and TERPRI work by creating a newline first. (instead of writeln of pascal or printf("\n") of C/unix). 05:00:18 who is ROK? 05:00:46 Rockwell Automation 05:00:52 South Korea 05:00:58 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 05:01:05 Republic of Kosovo 05:01:18 Saint Roch 05:01:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rok 05:01:55 none of those seem relevant to what FurnaceBoy was talking about 05:01:57 _ 05:02:22 Richard A. O'Keefe, as you could find out very easily for yourself. 05:02:28 RIchard O'Keefe. A computer scientist of great note. 05:02:44 in my defense, typing in rok on google got nothing 05:02:52 A New Zealander. 05:03:00 doesn't get nearly as much airplay as he should. 05:03:12 maybe because he toils away hobbit-like down under 05:03:16 That's what you get in searching always so much porn on google. 05:03:36 mhr_: You could have googled the title of his book, which is what I did 05:03:38 It learns what you like, and since there's nothing in porn called ROK, it fails you. 05:04:11 wow, that was obvious, whoops 05:04:21 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:04:28 *mhr_* wasn't talking to pjb 05:04:58 pjb: LISP didn't start out on punched cards, though, it started out as a paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_%28programming_language%29#cite_note-3 05:07:30 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:47 Well, everything was done on paper first in that time. 05:07:52 My first COBOL program: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130412 05:07:52 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:08:38 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:59 lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:05 "well, when I started most IO was fixed width, so it made sense to store that way", "esp. since the code to handle varialbe size data could easily take up all memory", "what our programming languages look like depends on the tasks we expect to perform" 05:11:30 .. lisppaste ? 05:11:34 is back ? 05:11:53 *ski* rejoices 05:13:44 "there's a reason for the continuation on 2nd card", "it's because you'd discover you needed it after punching column 80 and having the card eject" 05:13:57 ski: indeed, data was on disk. You only had buffers in memory, no data structures, no heap. 05:13:58 hmm... lisppaste doesn't have syntax highlighting for COBOL? 05:14:09 ski: sure :-) 05:14:19 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:33 "I'm shocked that you have it in machine readable format", "there's something perverse about lusing lisppaste to show cobol" 05:16:23 Numeric labels? Heresy. 05:18:17 But why were people using Cobol instead of Lisp? Lisp existed! 05:18:42 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-68-161-100-113.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:44 If I had to time travel, Lisp would be one of the only usable languages. 05:20:58 Aethaeryn: LOL! 05:21:10 Aethaeryn: it STILL exists but you don't ask why ppl don't use it but use Java, C++ whatever. 05:21:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_languages 05:21:27 Aethaeryn: People Make Bad Choices. That's the lesson 05:21:43 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #scheme 05:21:49 Aethaeryn: this is one thing you can count on 05:22:39 Well, let's say we time travel to January 1, 1980. 05:23:14 Aethaeryn: no need 05:23:29 Aethaeryn: you can ask the same question today and not get any different answer other than People Make Bad, Uninformed Choices. 05:23:33 Aethaeryn: it's a constant 05:23:46 Aethaeryn: or choices informed by fashion rather than reason 05:23:53 No C++, no Perl, no Python, no Java, no Ruby, no Haskell, no JavaScript, no PHP, no C#, no Objective C, etc. 05:23:56 in 1980 05:23:58 Aethaeryn: i've seen technical arguments met with "But all my friends are heavy Python users" 05:24:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:24:10 FurnaceBoy: s/friends/libraries 05:24:11 Aethaeryn: right. but that's irrelevant. 05:24:16 Aethaeryn: this Hasn't Changed. 05:24:16 FurnaceBoy: Python has many sweet, sweet libraries. 05:24:26 Aethaeryn: good languages exist _now_ and people, by and large, ignore them. 05:24:55 Aethaeryn: this isn't going to change; you have to accommodate yourself to it somehow; or, write rants. 05:24:57 "no, gotta disagree with those folks", "COBOL was about finding efficient ways to do the tasks that needed doing in the environment of the times", "program elegance actually isn't that big a deal ify ou have extreme memory constraints", "because you can't write anythign too ugly anywya" 05:25:07 ski: hahahahah 05:25:12 Yes, but going by http://langpop.com/ you'd basically only have C and SQL and Shell as familiar languages 05:25:23 Aethaeryn: popularity contests really say nothing 05:25:29 So given the hindsight of history, programming in the early 1980s must have really sucked. 05:25:32 Aethaeryn: they certainly don't say what people think they say 05:25:34 If only a few languages survived. 05:25:44 Aethaeryn: in 1980 is was common to write business apps in assembler. 05:25:46 ski: I totally agree with your friend 05:25:46 it* 05:26:24 Aethaeryn: furthermore, people advocating compilers were met with stern opposition, just as garbage collection was (and is) met with stern opposition, etc, etc, ad neauseam. 05:26:28 nauseam* 05:26:34 Aethaeryn: there is no good news. people haven't changed. 05:26:52 FurnaceBoy: they have. 05:26:56 The good news is, people haven't changed. 05:26:56 Today's xkcd made an impossible first knight move - it feels like unbalanced parens :( 05:26:56 nope. not one iota. 05:27:04 Garbage collection has won out. Eventually declaring types will lose. 05:27:11 Anniepoo[1] [~Anniepoo@ip-64-134-226-44.public.wayport.net] has joined #scheme 05:27:12 Aethaeryn: yes, but 30 years late. 05:27:12 It just takes a long, long time. 05:27:15 yes. 05:27:18 that much i agree with. 05:27:21 Aethaeryn: and compilers won out. 05:27:26 LOL 05:27:32 saying compilers have won out is so obvious now... 05:27:37 Aethaeryn: on all these points, of course, you're right, but my point was not about specifics. 05:27:39 More so than e.g. garbage collection 05:27:42 Aethaeryn: my point was that people haven't changed. 05:27:59 Aethaeryn: the objections today aren't about compilers., they are about other things that are overdue for the mainstream. 05:28:30 It's one thing to use the latest tech, it's another thing to bet your farm or your family's well-being on it. 05:28:32 hey folks, I've got a mass of 80 column fixed width data to parse and reorganize into fixed sized 9 track tape records in complex ways, and I'm wondering what tools exist to do it in scheme? 05:28:36 jcowan: meh 05:28:43 jcowan: that's not the point. 05:28:44 Or should I use a different language? ;-) 05:28:44 I use computers, but the clock that wakes me up is a simple electrical device. 05:28:51 jcowan: the point is that the industry is HELL BENT on staying backwards. 05:28:57 jcowan: NOT for a justifiable reason. 05:29:05 The only reason it isn't a windup clock is that I don't trust myself to wind it reliably. 05:29:08 FurnaceBoy: I don't know why you immediately want/expect everyone to use all these shiny concepts you're used to 05:29:11 jcowan: there are MANY ways as you know for actual progress to be incorporated into the mainstream. 05:29:29 jcowan: these things aren't happening. the industry is diseased. 05:29:41 "Cultural patterns are made from plastic explosive. Bend them slowly and they'll take any shape you want. Hit them with a hammer, and BOOM." 05:29:43 Scheme : language design :: Tesla Roadster : car design 05:29:46 --John W. Campbell 05:29:53 Don't expect people to use Tesla-like cars anytime soon 05:29:54 jcowan: you know the scariest part? it's the young ones who are most resistant to progress. 05:29:56 "Why are you still using gas?" 05:30:13 FurnaceBoy: Sure. Their knowledge is the most brittle. 05:30:20 jcowan: yes 05:30:23 jcowan: and thinnest 05:30:27 same with their egos. 05:30:29 I know Java, and Java's all anyone should ever need to know! 05:30:32 so they reach for crowd knowledge. 05:31:01 jcowan: it's common these days to hear a 20 yo programmer declaim, "This is my langauge for life!" 05:31:07 i've heard it many times in the past eyar 05:31:09 year* 05:31:21 my co-workers are close to this. 05:31:26 It's the same tendency that leads people to make foolish first marriages. 05:31:30 they know 1.5 languages. Python to them is absolute state of the art. 05:31:34 jcowan: yes. 05:31:37 FurnaceBoy: Your objections to "the industry" could easily apply to, say, the car industry. 05:31:50 jcowan: but a language Should Not Be a marriage. you can ditch it (and must) at any time. 05:31:52 Of course, some of us get lucky and have already spent 33 years on said first marriage. 05:32:01 you don't have to defend its honour for 40 years. 05:32:17 My wife can defend her own honor, actually. 05:32:19 Aethaeryn: except i work in this one. 05:32:28 ski drug me over here from ##prolog 05:32:37 Anniepoo[1]: welcome 05:32:57 *Anniepoo[1]* maintains a production system in a mix of LSL and swi-prolog 05:33:03 FurnaceBoy: Wait, Scheme isn't my language for life? :-( 05:33:04 *FurnaceBoy* falls in love 05:33:10 Aethaeryn: LOL! 05:33:15 Aethaeryn: do the math. 05:33:25 r42rs is going to be awesome 05:33:42 You ought to be on the Steering Committee by then. 05:33:42 Aethaeryn: your career will last 40 years, or 70 if USA doesn't fix itself. 05:33:53 Aethaeryn: backtrack. 40 years ago was: 1972. 05:34:00 My family pretty much always dies in harness, I expect to too. 05:34:19 FurnaceBoy: And Lisp existed in 1972. If survivability is your #1 trait for a language, Lisp seems to be able to evolve with the times. 05:34:31 Aethaeryn: Lisp isnt' the only game in town. 05:34:36 they were hand entering programs on the way to the moon, by punching them into keypad from paper a 05:34:37 Almost every other language but C is "unproven" in terms of age 05:34:43 Aethaeryn: Fortran. 05:34:47 ah, yes. 05:34:54 uh, Prolog dates from 1980 05:34:55 Lisp started out as a Fortran program. 05:34:56 Aethaeryn: but a LOT has happened in those 40 years. 05:35:13 Aethaeryn: it's foolish to ignore all that has occurred in languages between 1972 and today. trust me. 05:35:15 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node2.html#SECTION00020000000000000000 05:35:16 http://tinyurl.com/m558d5 05:35:31 That's where you get car/cdr/cpr/ctr 05:35:34 *Anniepoo[1]* started programming in 1975 05:35:39 Aethaeryn: so no, you won't be scheming in 2052. Not in the industry, anyway,. 05:35:44 oh wait, that was later 05:35:45 At home, sure, knock yourself out. 05:35:50 after FORTRAN was insufficient 05:36:04 There's some number of Clojure jobs around now 05:36:09 Aethaeryn: it's not hard to extrapolate that trend. 05:36:09 oh wait, nope 05:36:12 Anniepoo[1]: yes 05:36:22 Anniepoo[1]: an increasing number of FP jobs 05:36:30 it was FORTRAN 05:36:32 Anniepoo[1]: i've been noticing over the past few years 05:36:33 and I was at balisp meetup about a month ago, there was a bguy there primarily to recruit scheme programmers 05:36:52 Anniepoo[1]: yep - Scala, Haskell, Erlang, Clojure... all growing fast. 05:37:01 yup! 05:37:10 Anniepoo[1]: my resume has PHP poisoning (don't ask). 05:37:36 but i'm preparing to actually meet that FP job market, somehow. 05:37:40 one useful skill to learn is how to leave things off yer resume 05:37:45 Anniepoo[1]: +100 05:37:48 Anniepoo[1]: i learned this very late 05:37:54 I don't know the first thing about PHP ;-) 05:38:44 8c:p 05:38:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:39:00 Anniepoo[1]: lucky you 05:39:12 Anniepoo[1]: nice to meet another prologueur 05:39:13 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 05:39:18 you can not know the first thing about PHP too! 05:39:23 Anniepoo[1]: not that I am one; perhaps just aspirant. 05:39:28 Anniepoo[1]: i'm Mercury-curious 05:39:32 5 mins with Word will do it! 05:39:33 Mercurious? 05:39:36 Anniepoo[1]: :) 05:39:48 Anniepoo[1]: did ski also invite you to #yfl where some Prolog fans hang out? 05:39:57 no 05:40:03 well, I just did. :) 05:40:06 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #scheme 05:41:03 < FurnaceBoy> Aethaeryn: so no, you won't be scheming in 2052. Not in the industry, anyway,. <- If I can't get a job, I can always make a job. 05:41:05 -!- phao_ [phao@177.174.109.171] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 05:41:11 http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 05:41:56 Aethaeryn: don't disregard everything that's been going on in languages since 1972. 05:42:11 Aethaeryn: read Coders at Work, for example 05:42:12 phao [~phao@177.174.109.171] has joined #scheme 05:42:20 *Aethaeryn* checks the date on r7rs and sees 13 February 2012. 05:42:29 What an odd notation for `1972' 05:42:30 Aethaeryn: no. OUTSIDE the Lisp/Scheme world./ 05:42:44 FurnaceBoy: Of course not. I probably am better at Python than Lisp/Scheme. 05:42:49 if you restrict yourself to the Lisp/Scheme world. you'll be in deep trouble. 05:42:52 As I said, Python has amazing libraries. 05:42:55 dunno, I'm happy in swipl. It's got great tools for making things that make making htings easy 05:42:57 um, NOT Python. 05:43:07 no you won't! 05:43:07 come on 05:43:10 do some research 05:43:16 there's a LOT going on out there. 05:43:16 I decided to become a VW programmer 05:43:20 and a lot of it is important. 05:43:29 there are like a dozen VW programmers in the world 05:43:33 Aethaeryn: for example, how familiar are you with Erlang? 05:43:39 took me a year, but I did it 05:43:41 8cD 05:43:44 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:48 FurnaceBoy: I think I've coded about 5 lines of Erlang (it has a REPL) 05:44:00 Aethaeryn: right. You also need to study the ML family of languages. 05:44:10 i mean study. not type 5 lines. 05:44:26 and then keep going from there. 05:44:43 So there are no jobs for Lispers, but there are jobs for MLers? 05:44:52 the world is much larger than lisp and scheme, even if you decide to stick to them, you need to have some breadth of knowledge to justify that. 05:45:00 Aethaeryn: there are jobs for all kinds of programmers. 05:45:03 all the jobs are in CLPFD ;-) 05:45:05 Aethaeryn: that's not the point. 05:45:11 the point is your own breadth of knowledge. 05:45:28 not everything can be learned by lurking in #scheme and #lisp. 05:45:37 Uh... 05:45:59 the impact of Erlang, for example, is not trivial. 05:46:00 I'm in #scheme and #lisp because the books I am working through in my spare time are SICP and Practical Common Lisp 05:46:06 that's my point Aethaeryn 05:46:11 what ELSE are you reading? 05:46:14 or plan to read? 05:46:15 Not because I've decided to never, ever, ever read another programming book that doesn't use sexpy languages 05:46:21 let over lambda! 05:46:22 ok, good. 05:46:25 then there's no problem :) 05:46:48 Aethaeryn, decide to never read such books and your life will be better! 05:46:51 Aethaeryn: so you weren't being serious when you said "So Scheme isn't the only language i'll need to learn?" :) 05:47:02 (you'll end up living in your car a lot, but that can be OK) 05:47:35 heck, the impact of Prolog is not trivial. :) but don't tell a PHP'er... 05:47:58 FurnaceBoy: no, I'm writing a Scheme. Learning as many languages as possible is thus a good thing for me. 05:48:05 "I typed 5 lines into a Prolog REPL. I couldn't make it do a web page. I gave up" 05:48:06 I like looting ideas. 05:48:11 Aethaeryn: ok cool. 05:48:20 *FurnaceBoy* goes to bed 05:48:24 well, are you a programmer becausebyou're a programmer, or a programmer cause it's a good living? 05:48:24 *FurnaceBoy* apologises for the rants 05:48:29 Aethaeryn : you should learn an ML (SML or O'Caml, or maybe Alice ML) for the module system (but also see Scheme48) (don't pick F#, it has a standard mediocre module system) -- also you'll see type-inference, with parametric polymorphism and variant types (~= algebraic types) if you've haven't seen those before 05:48:29 If I stayed in the Scheme and Lisp community I'd wind up with a half-implementation of Common Lisp and a half-implementation of Racket done in an inferior way. 05:48:38 ski+++ 05:48:51 Furnaceboy, http://www.pathwayslms.com:5000/q?qnum=0&quiz=RT 05:49:05 *FurnaceBoy* looks 05:49:07 that's a prolog web server 05:49:30 Of course, a basic Python web server is 0 lines long. 05:49:37 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-69-136-24-18.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: EPIC5-1.1.2[1638] - amnesiac : Do the gene pool a service... Add a bucket of chlorine today!] 05:49:38 it's in production for a real world use, it's been up for months, 05:49:57 $ python -m SimpleHTTPServer 05:49:59 Anniepoo[1]: lovely... the link didn't load though. Can you pm me a different link or a link to the project itself? 05:50:00 I have a test web server in prolog that's only slightly long, 05:50:06 Anniepoo[1]: have you used Mercury> 05:50:22 Hello world in Python: import hello_world; hello_world() 05:50:40 the project's too complex for a staerter 05:51:03 but certainly should load 05:51:11 it's working for me 05:51:23 Definitely one thing to learn from modern popular languages is that *everything* is built in or easily downloadable. 05:51:25 do you have closed ports? 05:51:45 Anniepoo[1]: it was DNS, maybe a reload will help. stand by. 05:52:03 yeah retry for the win, sorry 05:52:49 Anniepoo[1]: i think i'm going to fail the quiz... 05:52:56 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 05:54:08 FurnaceBoy: Oh, scrolling back up, yes, I wasn't serious, since I used a smilie 05:54:24 Although it was ":-(" and not ":-P" for some reason 05:54:42 FurnaceBoy : hm, load for me in `w3m', fwiw 05:55:37 (and appears to work? 05:55:40 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:55:41 Interestingly enough, I don't think the concept of templates in web frameworks is necessary for something like Scheme or Lisp. 05:55:45 (s/?/\)/) 05:55:48 Since you can just use sexpressions and translate them. 05:56:44 Backquote is the core of templates. 05:58:33 rudybot: eval `(evaluating (+ 2 3) yields ,(+ 2 3)) ; e.g. 05:58:33 ski: your r5rs sandbox is ready 05:58:33 ski: ; Value: {evaluating {+ 2 3} yields 5} 05:59:09 I meant HTML templates. 05:59:29 Aethaeryn: But Racket's template language is useful in that it lets people who can write HTML but not Scheme write server-side code. 05:59:35 http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/templates.html 06:00:08 -!- jcowan [~John@p-67-158-180-195.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:01:22 Hand-write HTML? eww 06:03:29 I never hand write HTML 06:03:51 I write prolog DCG's for html//1 06:08:33 alcuadrado [~alcuadrad@unaffiliated/alcuadrado] has joined #scheme 06:09:04 I'm going though SICP, and got can't get excersice 1.6, anyone could help me? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1.7 06:10:46 I think the worst thing about HTML and CSS are probably the syntax. That stuff might have been trendy when browsers were created, but it hasn't aged well. 06:10:53 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@66-168-47-170.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 06:11:39 Anniepoo[1]: Did your question ever get answered? 06:12:17 sure Aethaeryn, the w3c didn't helped at all, they even did a failed "restart" with XHTML, which was even messier 06:12:24 which question? 06:13:20 alcuadrado: In an alternate universe, they might be using a "lite" version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSSSL 06:13:26 Anniepoo[1]: The one you joined #scheme to have answered 06:13:33 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:14:25 LOL - oh, ski suggested I come in to listen to the cobol discussion 06:15:00 oh 06:15:09 It was kind of hard to keep track of every line 06:15:15 It was a crazy... 6 hours here 06:15:19 wow 06:15:55 yah, well, I asked a joke question - some nonsense about fixed column data - my point was, it was a task ideally suited to COBOL 06:16:02 ah 06:16:07 Yes, I did notice that 06:16:20 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #scheme 06:16:22 lol 06:16:31 I forgot about the joke and just remembered the question. 06:17:27 well, I wasn't serious about looking for a fixed width scheme lib 06:17:56 Hmm... going over the conversation again, learning languages to get a job is a *terrible* idea. They usually require X years experience, and by the time you have that experience, something new will be hot. 06:18:06 And since it's popular, your job is easily replacable and with a low salary. 06:18:09 Aethaeryn, you may find interesting that Bertrand Eich (creator of javascript) got into netscape with the idea of implementing Scheme as the navigator's scripting lang, but when management saw its syntax they send him to create a new language more similar to java 06:18:11 Ironically, COBOL is now job security. 06:18:42 alcuadrado: Reading that is how I got the idea to compile to JavaScript. 06:19:07 a friend maintains a 30 year old time sharing scheme on a mainframe, makes huge money doing it - she's last person on earth who knows it 06:19:19 so you created a scheme to js compiler Aethaeryn ? 06:19:36 No, I'm not doing yet-another half-implementation of scheme. 06:19:46 I'm currently going rather deep into language theory so it's done right, so no one else has to do it 06:20:43 This will require reading several language standards, at least half a dozen books, etc., not to mention steal library ideas from everywhere and anywhere when I get to that... 06:20:49 (not just lispy libraries...) 06:20:59 if you don't mind using LLVM's IL emscripten could give you a free backend for generating js 06:21:21 I've looked into emscripten/LLVM. 06:22:01 It would certainly be the correct way to compile to js. 06:22:09 I'm not sure it would be fast or web-native enough. 06:22:50 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 06:22:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 06:23:00 there are some pretty cool ports of C programs to js with emscripten (ie: some codecs) and they are pretty fast 06:23:13 Yes, but they're C. 06:23:27 They need a lot more work to compile to JS. And that has costs. 06:24:00 And emscripten seems to be designed explicitly for C/C++ 06:24:42 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:24:57 actually, I haven't looked at it. I just thought its backend could be useful 06:25:31 Well, I didn't look too deep past the available documentation 06:26:33 The thing is, I only need to implement the things Lisp needs. Lisp isn't actually that low to the machine. 06:27:06 I could theoretically gain a lot by targetting JavaScript directly. 06:27:29 Yay! I compiled and run my old cobol program Feb 1983 with OpenCobol successfully! :-) 06:27:43 pjb: How's cobol-mode in emacs? 06:27:54 Now, the Cobol standard is 900+ pages, almost as long as CLHS. 06:27:55 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:29:13 Aw, I didn't use it. Looks primitive. Well there's font-locking. But then, I'm used to slime :-) 06:29:24 Well, you should write the slime of cobol! 06:29:37 You're probably the most qualified person in the world to do so. 06:29:54 Aethaeryn: indeed, lisp started as a Fortran program: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 06:30:00 :-) 06:30:23 Aethaeryn, I see yout point 06:31:03 Cobol has meant job security for ages. 06:31:35 job enjoyment >> job security 06:31:47 hkBst: until you get the job 06:32:02 Easily replaceable is not a good situation to be in. 06:32:08 Aethaeryn: no, if you get to that point you did it wrong 06:33:06 hey folks, thanks, see ya! 06:33:42 -!- Anniepoo[1] [~Anniepoo@ip-64-134-226-44.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: "Help! I've been g:lined from my mIRC!!" Bersirc 2.2: less n00bs [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]] 06:34:02 Well, I'm glad to know that there's an active #prolog community on Freenode. (That has interests in Schemers talking about Cobol.) 06:36:47 pjb: I'm glad that so much history has been preserved on the Internet. 06:37:05 It'll be really, really easy for late 20th century historians to do history research. 06:37:09 Assuming they can read our data formats. 06:38:37 If they can read our plain text, they will be already not that bad off.. 06:39:10 Well, it would kind of be sad if HTML/XML/etc. survives centuries into the future as something that's still-used for their Holodecks or whatever. 06:39:34 Unfortunately, a lot of data formats are based on XML these days. 06:39:47 Any archeologist would learn extracting plain text from HTML quite quickly 06:40:01 Yes, that would be their archeologist "digs"! 06:40:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:42:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:42:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 06:44:24 alcuadrado: My goal for scheme->js is gaming, since it's pretty challenging for the browsers of today, so it will add a lot of functionality useful elsewhere too. And speed. 06:44:49 Plenty of inferior languages and coding styles were chosen *just* for speed. 06:45:50 Lisp today is fast (compared to, e.g. Python or Ruby). Was Lisp in 1980 fast? 06:53:21 nice Aethaeryn 06:53:37 i didn't know lisp was used for games 06:55:01 You could use symbols on a strip of tape for game programming. 06:55:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-ad03a5e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:55:21 As long as it's fast enough, no one would notice. 06:57:14 -!- stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:37 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:39 stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has joined #scheme 06:58:48 -!- jrslepak_neu [~jrslepak@punchout.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:48 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:48 -!- 15SABNDCZ [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:54 jrslepak_neu [~jrslepak@punchout.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:58:56 jeff_ [~jdlouhy@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 06:58:59 -!- samth_away [~samth@racket/samth] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:59:20 -!- jeff_ is now known as Guest69483 06:59:27 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #scheme 07:00:03 samth_away [~samth@samth2.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 07:01:09 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #scheme 07:02:09 sure Aethaeryn, but the lack of libraries, programmers and other things would make your life hard 07:02:12 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:02:46 alcuadrado: (1) most of the good game libraries cost money, the game community lags behind the rest of the programmer world in terms of embracing FOSS 07:03:09 alcuadrado: (2) it's in the browser. There's probably half a dozen people, most of them thinking $$$, who are currently working on game libraries that may one day work 07:03:55 The lack of libraries will make my life hard, and everyone else's. I'm hoping that the advantage that Scheme provides in terms of power is sufficient. 07:04:15 s/people/groups 07:04:37 you are right 07:04:39 mostly in 2 07:04:42 Although, according to the US Supreme Court, corporations are people 07:04:47 -!- nischayn22|Away is now known as nischayn22 07:04:54 Unless that's just a meme 07:05:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-205.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:05:47 I'm from Argentina, and here corporations are (legally) called smth like "jurisdic person" (persona juridica) :P 07:05:52 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-244-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:06:16 so they are sort of people in here 07:09:01 Imagine, though, if all the best libraries on a "new" platform were for Scheme. 07:09:19 There could easily be 10x the number of people in this channel. 07:09:45 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09:58 soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has joined #scheme 07:10:42 sure, and if its in the js community, where everything "new" is consider good, there will be plenty of adopters.. just make it to the HN home a couple of times and that's all you need 07:11:16 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-142-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:11:53 Yes, the plan is perfect, I "only" need to invest at least a year into it with no guaranteed return. 07:12:19 But the "do the hard work and create a language with lots of awesome libraries" part is easy. ;-) 07:12:39 Well, compared to the hard part which is to design a language. I'm glad someone else did that. 07:14:15 If you make a mistake in a language (and the history of programming languages has more mistakes than features), you can't really take it back once it's in the wild and used by lots of people (you know, the thing you need to do to *discover* most deep flaws) 07:16:20 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b9b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:16:30 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f7684ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 07:17:06 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 07:18:17 The nicest part about r7rs, though, is that if there's a mistake you can (import (except (scheme base) function-that-sucks) (better-version-of-excluded-function)) 07:18:34 Yes, scheme *base* 07:19:15 So there literally could be a library that's designed to be a better (+) 07:19:27 ijp [~user@host86-179-77-224.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 07:21:52 nice, I didn't know that feature 07:21:57 I'm just learning scheme 07:22:18 If you want to see what r7rs is going to look like chibi-scheme is the only one that I know of that implements the (still in draft phase) standard. 07:22:42 I don't know how much it adds on top of it. It's very minimal compared to, say, racket. 07:23:35 if you want to see what r7rs is _really_ going to look at, look at r5rs, then sigh, and go back to what you were doing before 07:24:44 ijp: are you implying that r5rs is better or worse? 07:25:02 I didn't imply either 07:25:26 It does have at least one ambiguity that was corrected in r7rs, section 2.1 (in r7rs) called Identifiers 07:26:22 'An identifier is any sequence of letters, digits, and "extended identifier characters" provided that it does not have a prefix which is a valid number.' 07:26:54 actually, hmm 07:26:58 Aethaeryn: yeah, chibi is pretty cool, but it has it's faults 07:27:03 r5rs is pretty clear, I must have been reading a different one 07:27:09 Anyway, no one follows that rule 07:27:16 duh, its scheme 07:27:20 no one follows any rules 07:27:39 Aethaeryn: identifiers and symbols are easily confused 07:28:05 chibi has issues with +inf and +nan 07:28:13 oh, no wait... "...that begins with a character that cannot begin a number is an identifier" 07:28:18 That might have confused at least one person. 07:29:17 i think that's supposed to imply: if try to parse number else parse identifier 07:29:32 adu: chibi-scheme isn't perfect (and I don't like how it does libraries, even though I do test how they work on it), but it seems like the only choice. 07:30:03 Aethaeryn: my scheme is going to be r7rs 07:30:11 Aethaeryn: I assume you have some unspecified constraints you aren't telling us about 07:30:12 Yes. My scheme is going to be r7rs as well. 07:30:20 Aethaeryn: what's it called? 07:30:22 "going to be" is common in the r7rs world 07:30:33 adu: NIH-scheme 07:30:41 Aethaeryn: well, I've already implemented most of it 07:31:15 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:31:42 adu: I haven't written mine yet. 07:32:14 It's... requiring extensive reading and research beforehand, at least compared to my previous projects. 07:32:33 I could write it, but I'd have to rewrite anything I write. 07:32:45 Aethaeryn: the hardest part is going to be r5rs 07:33:25 adu: Why? 07:33:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:59 because compared to call/cc, everything else is easy 07:34:45 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#reference 07:34:54 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 07:35:09 I already have an authoritative list of the hardest four: tail recursion, continuations, hygienic macros, numeric tower. 07:35:48 It's useful to know what to expect 07:35:56 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 07:37:15 my scheme will support hygenic macros, full numeric tower, and call/ec 07:37:41 I've pretty much given up on tail recursion and call/cc 07:37:54 so, it's not a scheme 07:38:14 Re Tail Recursion: "This is a major restriction and such implementations should not even be called Scheme, let alone standards-compliant." 07:38:29 from my link 07:38:32 right 07:38:37 adu: why not give up lexical scope while you're at it 07:39:05 ijp: now you're just being facesious 07:39:17 I'm 100% serious 07:40:09 tail recursion is there, it's just not optimized 07:40:33 to make it optimized, I would have to muck around in internals 07:40:40 it's not an optimisation, it's an important part of the semantics of scheme programs 07:40:42 which I'm prepared to do, just not right now 07:41:05 and has been since the _very_ beginning 07:41:15 -!- mhr_ [60fd6497@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.100.151] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:41:37 Tail recursion is the point of Scheme, iirc. 07:41:51 As in, it's required for very good reasons. 07:42:40 And yes, the Scheme community doesn't call it an optimization. 07:42:45 oh 07:42:53 gccgo has TCO 07:43:01 that makes me feel better 07:43:06 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_%28programming_language%29#Proper_tail_recursion 07:43:07 http://tinyurl.com/6vjozsw 07:43:37 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:04 Don't make Steele and Sussman sad. 07:44:14 I know I know 07:44:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:44:38 I understand the importance of TCO, but it's imposible to do in pure Go 07:46:05 also, fwiw, the purpose of my scheme was more exploratory (for my education), and I feel like it's already served it's purpose for that, and now I'm either going to rewrite it from scratch, or start contributing to another project 07:48:12 adu: Feel free to plagiarize from https://github.com/Aethaeryn/S-script/blob/master/doc/objection.md#serious-business 07:48:12 http://tinyurl.com/76xrd36 07:48:26 I set it to CC0, essentially public domain even in countries where there is no public domain 07:48:53 Yes, I don't even have the language yet, but I had enough objections to create a "Frequently Asserted Objections" section. 07:49:06 heh, definitely NIH 07:49:09 The Internet is very combative. 07:50:08 (Spoiler: '(favorite-dialect) returns "racket") 07:50:15 heh 07:50:28 I'm leaning twoard guile 07:50:38 Oh, I mean, the variable in the objection.md 07:50:43 Everyone who frequently objected to make me do an FAO said "racket". 07:50:48 yup, i understand 07:51:01 Yes, when I say Frequently Asserted Objections, I mean *frequent* 07:51:14 I don't feel that the racket community is very open 07:51:18 No other reason to document a currently non-existing language. 07:51:30 Coincidentally, that's the only part still up to date 07:51:39 Aethaeryn: I encourage you to write a scheme 07:51:52 Aethaeryn: I encourage you not to write a scheme 07:51:52 it's very enlightening 07:52:55 There's also an FAO to the FAO, which is that FAO exists and means something else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.O._Schwarz 07:53:05 -!- wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:53:13 anyways, most people attach some stigma to NIH, but I don't I think it's high praise 07:53:41 If NIH was totally bad, I'd be using Clojure, since there's plenty of things already implemented in Java... why implement anything? 07:54:08 I'm actually in #clojure as well *blush* 07:54:55 and I've noticed that after using string-append so often, (str) is so much nicer 07:55:24 A corollary to "The Internet is very combative." is that #scheme and #lisp like to insult Clojure. 07:55:47 Idk why. Maybe I will after years of Lisp and Scheme experience then going to Clojure and trying to learn it. 07:56:08 There are lots of smart people here, but some things are just taste, so idk 07:56:40 Aethaeryn: anyways, the first revision of my scheme is called 'droscheme', which is an interpreter, I think the second revision of my scheme will be called 'gos' to make it obvious that it's not quite scheme 07:56:50 which will be a compiler to go 07:56:53 it's not that NIH is bad per se, it's that there are more scheme implementations than scheme programmers by at least a factor of two 07:57:28 ijp: Oh, good! I hope I can raise that average. (-: 07:57:37 -_- 07:57:47 ijp: really? 07:57:57 ijp: The number of 'Scheme' implementations reduces greatly when you apply the four criteria I link to. The hard parts. 07:58:10 adu: it's called hyperbole 07:58:16 In fact, those would be the parts I'd be most likely to quit on if I didn't know about them in advance, and commit so publicly to r7rs 07:58:28 Aethaeryn: do you wanna see my compiler so far? 07:58:34 Aethaeryn: true, and that is another point I make frequently 07:58:53 adu: I'm not sure I'm awake enough to evaluate it properly. 07:59:01 https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/andrew-working/cmd/gos2go/gos2go.ss 07:59:03 http://tinyurl.com/6vme4gy 07:59:21 I typed (car) when I wanted (cons) in a repl about an hour ago, so my writing ability is going to drop soon too thanks to tiredness. 07:59:55 ijp: I do encourage you to discourage me, though. 08:00:22 ijp: I am a natural pessimist so I do wonder if people are holding back criticism just to be polite, sometimes. 08:00:36 It's the worst thing that can happen in engineering, imo. That's the thing that causes space shuttles to blow up. 08:00:46 Be rude, as long as you can back it up. 08:01:16 I think software design should be more political 08:01:45 like gathering 10,000 signatures to delete Sharaza from every computer 08:02:59 What's Sharaza? 08:03:00 or petitioning microsoft to opensource windows 08:03:22 Seems interesting. Perhaps I will download it. 08:03:36 adu: that would be bad. 08:03:51 What would you do with 20 million Loc? 08:03:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:04:14 pjb: noooooo 08:04:37 step 1: collect source code 08:04:40 step 2: ? 08:04:46 step 3: PROFIT! 08:05:10 debug it. 08:05:11 :-) 08:05:38 No, serriously, what good would an opensource MS-Windows do? 08:05:55 It would only help entrench it in some legacy applications. 08:06:26 It's better to advocate for users switching to Linux. 08:07:31 I still think hurd is the way to go 08:15:23 b4284` [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 08:17:54 -!- b4284 [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:17:58 < adu> or petitioning microsoft to opensource windows <- Technically, Americans can just vote for a president whose sole purpose is to nationalize and open source various software companies like Microsoft. It (probably) wouldn't work, though. It (probably) isn't a good idea, either. 08:18:17 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:18:41 The Anti-Microsoft Party. Platform: Open source Windows. 08:19:02 People opposed to it: Closed source people. Open source people who use a platform other than Windows. People who watch cable news. 08:20:37 pjb: On the other hand, an open source Windows would suddently make an awesome alternative to wine for running legacy applications on top of Linux. 08:21:04 Just write a compatability layer so you can run it on top of the Linux kernel. 08:21:25 like...wine ? :P 08:21:59 Like wine, but with 100% bug-for-bug compatability on even Windows 8. 08:22:00 :-P 08:22:07 Quite literally. :-P 08:22:51 mhyeah, think it's quite fine the way it is now though 08:22:55 having choice is good 08:22:59 kuribas [~user@94-227-36-245.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 08:23:45 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.158.43] has joined #scheme 08:24:37 surrounder: Oh, yes, it's totally not worth the extreme-socialist precedent it would set, scaring away just about every tech company in the US. 08:24:44 Just for "a nicer wine" 08:25:03 I don't even use wine anymore 08:25:10 same 08:25:15 just boot windows if I need it 08:25:22 desktop runs windows mainly anyhore 08:25:25 *anyhow 08:25:49 wine's just training wheels until you get used to the Unix way of doing things... and VirtualBox is pretty nice if you need to test something in Windows (e.g. a browser or something) as you code. 08:26:14 (And yes, the browsers render differently on each OS, so if you think you've tested your website by just using all the browsers, you're really about 1/3 of the way there.) 08:26:22 virtualbox is awesome indeed :) 08:26:46 Aethaeryn: also, I'm a big fan of the dictator model, like Steve and Linus 08:26:54 and theo! 08:28:04 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:32:53 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 08:37:14 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-142-163.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:41:06 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:45:42 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:46:42 finally read through http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/cobol-horrors.html from my tab queue 08:46:45 wow... 08:46:58 I think Cobol might be the anti-Scheme. 08:47:17 Someone should do a Cobol implementation in Scheme. 08:52:18 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB63CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:53:40 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:56:13 poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:00:48 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:03:42 Actually, for the Y2K bug, some Lisp made good money writing lisp programs to analyse Cobol programs and find dates. 09:04:11 hah, nice 09:04:24 So, there's probably somewhere some lisp code to at least parse a Cobol program and build a good internal representation, plus some data flow analysis. 09:04:39 Too bad it's not published. 09:04:41 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y2.038K ; mark your calendars! 09:04:59 That's the next calendar bug 09:05:01 I'm not sure I'll still be alive by then 09:05:46 And all my computer are or will soon be using 64-bit systems, so that should solve that problem for sure until singularity (if it happens after 2038). 09:07:07 Hmm, right, Lisp probably has a higher median age than most languages. 09:07:52 pjb: It's not too late to write a life-extending Lisp program. S-expressions can (theoretically) model *any* data structure, right? 09:08:06 Well, any common one. 09:08:23 Counterexamples to "for all"s are trivial 09:08:56 Model DNA in Lisp! 09:09:05 Parse it and optimize it! 09:13:42 -!- fhd [~fhd@vserver2179.vserver-on.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:16:25 -!- soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has quit [Quit: soegaard] 09:16:42 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-185.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:18:22 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.158.43] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:19:07 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.158.43] has joined #scheme 09:20:54 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:28:20 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:37:08 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.misaki.pl] has joined #scheme 09:37:54 soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has joined #scheme 09:41:04 -!- soegaard [~soegaard@188.183.250.62] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:07 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:43:53 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-185.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:50:00 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-140.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:54:25 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-140.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:54:28 jao [~user@206.Red-88-0-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:54:42 -!- jao [~user@206.Red-88-0-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:54:42 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 09:57:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:58:54 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-143-185.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:01:19 -!- b4284` [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:28 b4284 [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 10:11:52 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:12:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-18.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:17:37 adu: the +inf.0 and +nan.0 bugs in chibi were fixed 10:18:29 I promise very fast turn-around time on bug fixes! 10:21:37 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r190-135-27-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:04 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:22:18 -!- LeoNerd [~leo@cel.leonerd.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:12 http://blog.gigantt.com/2012/07/remember-irc.html 10:24:18 ^ they're on to us! 10:25:21 I'll hide the brandy 10:33:40 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-167-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 10:36:16 spionHL [~spion@95.180.197.146] has joined #scheme 10:38:30 ijp` [~user@host31-53-168-150.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:39:41 LeoNerd [~leo@fairy.dictatorshipcake.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:40:33 -!- ijp [~user@host86-179-77-224.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:45:45 ijp`` [~user@host86-182-16-1.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:46:13 -!- ijp`` [~user@host86-182-16-1.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:06 -!- ijp` [~user@host31-53-168-150.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:50:01 -!- b4284 [~user@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:21 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.158.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:57:04 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-217.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:57:32 masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 11:05:41 foof: Brandy's safe... 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[~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:22:42 realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-omagojwsnzxssydw] has joined #scheme 15:23:40 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 15:23:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:23:40 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 15:31:12 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-63.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:38:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:45:36 ijp``` [~user@host86-174-98-205.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:06 -!- ijp`` [~user@host86-151-72-49.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:50:40 -!- masm [~masm@bl17-200-117.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:55 jao [~user@206.Red-88-0-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 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[~yoklov@66-168-47-170.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:49 -!- langmartin [~user@68-186-113-4.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:17 -!- realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-omagojwsnzxssydw] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:47 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:05 -!- mgs is now known as mgsk 16:51:51 Wasn't this cat in #scheme recently? http://whitequark.org/blog/2012/07/06/lets-destroy-flash-together/ 16:51:58 I remember having a conversation with him. 16:52:40 didnt he hack on some micro controller scheme? 16:53:58 jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:54:38 -!- peeeep [~potato@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:52 -!- sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:23 yes, picobit (as seen on github) 16:56:29 peeeep 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