00:00:10 ijp: Updated information is welcome. 00:00:53 Aethaeryn: I'd go for {} and [] if you want to be able to embed JSON directly, which seems like a Good Thing. 00:01:01 jcowan, despite long-standing hope, I have not yet managed to annoy Riastradh in person. 00:01:12 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@113.Red-83-33-81.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Suthe] 00:01:21 I can tell you this, he's not what you expect. 00:01:46 *gnomon* cocks an eyebrow 00:01:48 But neither was Erik Naggum by all reports. 00:02:24 Oh, Naggers. 00:03:00 Hmm... maybe I should call it S-script so there's a double play on Scheme and S-expression in the 'S'. 00:03:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:21 Aethaeryn, call it Joey Joe-Joe Shabadoo for now! You can always rename it later once it's grown up a bit. 00:04:45 I was pretty stunned when I met Peter T. Daniels for the first and only time. I had guessed him to be about 30-40 years older than he actually is. 00:05:04 He's in his teens? 00:05:19 Daniels? Late twenties, but that was some time ago 00:05:23 Aethaeryn: The reason that Racket is listed as "in the Lisp/Scheme family" is that that's just what it is; and if you want to be picky, so does 95% of other scheme implementations. 00:06:03 Aethaeryn: And re "easily write 45 schemes" -- that's a huge misunderestimate. Implementing a language is serious business, and scheme in general suffers from people with this ridiculous opinion. 00:06:24 (Usually induced by some recent SICP experience.) 00:06:34 Indeed, I would say that 100% of Scheme implementations are "in the Lisp/Scheme family" 00:06:36 eli: (1) My point is that Wikipedia treats it as a language rather than an implementation of a language. (2) Obviously writing 45 schemes won't produce 45 high-quality schemes! 00:07:01 You could write the same Scheme in each of the 45 available Schemes. 00:07:27 cky: The lock-in that you get with Racket is the same as the lock-in with any other real-world implementation; actually, Racket goes beyond other implementations in that you can use a strict r[56]rs language to minimize lock-ins. 00:08:07 Aethaeryn: Believe me, I know what the Wikipedia article says, and like I said -- it's true for all implementations. 00:08:54 Aethaeryn: And re scheme implementations -- writing even *one* is a huge job. Look for example at any number of known schemes and you'll see work-in-progress despite decades of efforts. 00:09:29 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:09:35 Reducing all of that to "Hey, how about I hack my own scheme? shouldn't take more than a weekend", is nonsensical at best, and self-delusional at worst. 00:10:15 even scheme48 which was written by experienced scheme implementers, didn't stay as a weekend project 00:10:44 [Yeah, I've resisted bringing that poor name decision up...] 00:10:53 < Aethaeryn> This is why I'm being extremely cautious about it, because there's about 20 ways for it to fail. 00:11:12 I'm sorry if I implied that Scheme was easy to do. I just meant to imply that it's *easier* than the alternatives to *start*. 00:11:45 I suspect that the delta between a Scheme implementation and a CL one is negligible. 00:12:07 In fact, Scheme imposes much more core work, which could tilt the effort balance into making it more difficult. 00:12:27 eli: Oh, it's more about two things: (1) having something always "working" at each point and (2) not feeling pressured to have to implement all of it in the standard way. 00:12:44 Common Lisp implies "this is going to be compatible with Common Lisp, or at least be a subset" 00:12:48 Obvious examples: you need proper tail call elimination, continuations, and hygienic macors. With CL there's a ton of baggage that you need to take care of, but nothing as big as these things. 00:12:57 Aethaeryn, that's a very strong point: it's easier to get, say, 50% of the way towards a working implementation of Scheme than of most other languages. 00:13:20 Forth shares that nice property. 00:13:38 Aethaeryn: keeping something working at all points is misguided: continuations are nice in that they can lead you to redo your whole core. 00:13:55 Aethaeryn: It's especially a relevant point if you're dealing with a compiler-to-JS thing. 00:14:03 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:14:13 If I wrote a (Common) Lisp people would *expect* to be able to port code to it. If I wrote a Scheme, that expectation is not there. 00:14:20 That was my decision process. 00:14:41 Also working != finished, and it's probably going to suck for months/years, if it ever gets finished. 00:14:58 You're missing my point. 00:15:18 Oh, I understand your point. 00:15:19 You seem to think that if you keep something working, you'll enjoy the beenfits of incremental developement. 00:15:38 In the presence of continuations and hygienic macros, that point is gone. 00:15:48 Unless you deal with them right from the start, of course. 00:16:00 (Which blows away any illusion of a quick project.) 00:16:43 eli, isn't that part of the incremental development process that most Scheme systems go through, though? 00:17:05 There comes a point when the implementer really groks those things, and then usually a pretty fundamental rewrite, either with or without a project rename. 00:17:31 gnomon: More accurately, I've seen many systems that get to the continuation/hygiene and just lift their hands in dispair. 00:17:36 Of course there are many, many caterpillars which never become butterflies. 00:17:38 I was jokingly referencing Scheme-48 when I said "Well, technically, you could easily write 45 schemes in about 90... days." 00:17:43 A joke. 00:17:56 I left out ":-P" unfortunately. 00:18:01 Dooming the project either to the usual garbage bin of dead project or some choose to declare themselves r4rs... 00:18:03 Hmm. Not many of them ever really understood macros, but anyway... 00:18:05 So there's an interpreter error going on here. 00:18:13 Because of a missing :-P 00:19:01 Riastradh: Yeah, that too... Sad, really. 00:19:04 Aethaeryn, that smiley emoticon is usually left off in this channel because most of us tend to imagine it after almost every line anyhow! 00:19:09 I probably left the ":-P" because the absurdity of my statement was supposed to make it obviously a joke. 00:19:29 Aethaeryn: Joke or not, the bottom line is that you're going off investing in yet another scheme implementation, instead of contributing to an existing project. 00:19:46 And that's been The Curse of Scheme since its beginning, almost. 00:20:26 eli, the price to pay for overly successful marketing to students! 00:20:33 Well, maybe the Scheme standards people should add about 400 pages of nonsense filler to the standard just to scare people off, then. :-P 00:20:52 Maybe lots of pictures/diagrams would help. :-P 00:21:06 gnomon: Yeah -- and that's something that I *don't* blame on SICP... 00:21:20 eli: I've used racket before, I actually like it. 00:21:33 (One of the original 6.001 goals was filtering people...) 00:21:56 eli: My point about lockin is that it's inevitable. It's not some "sinister plot" of Racket or something. 00:22:00 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has joined #scheme 00:22:08 Aethaeryn: It doesn't matter if it's racket or not, the point is that there are plenty of ->JS tools around, which you could be looking at and possibly contributing to. 00:22:32 Aethaeryn: Think about making Racket compile to JS, and that could be more fruitful (or not---I don't know enough about Racket's internals). 00:22:35 cky: Yeah, it's a property of all implementations, which is why the "Microsoft" analogy doesn't hold. 00:23:16 cky: No need to make it a theoretical exercise: http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/ 00:23:16 eli: I should have picked a different example, seeing as "Microsoft" is a somewhat loaded name. That loadedness was not intentional. 00:23:37 cky: Making an existing, very large, Scheme compile to JS is considerably more ambitious than making a subset of Scheme compile to JS. 00:23:37 eli: Oh, very nice!! 00:23:40 Imo. 00:23:52 Aethaeryn: Start from dyoo's project (that eli linked to). 00:23:52 It's probably more useful, I'm just not that skilled. 00:24:00 Or contribute to it. Or whatever. 00:24:31 :-/ 00:24:39 But this is just a hobby. It's not intended for other users. 00:24:43 To clarify, that project is aimed at a complete compilation of the racket core language -- it is *not* trivial or simple. But then again, a decent Scheme->JS implementation shouldn't be expected to be that. 00:24:55 eli: Thank you, thank you, thank you! I will definitely look seriously at using it for my own projects. 00:25:04 eli: So that I can use Racket on server side and Whalesong on client side. 00:25:04 Y'all greatly overestimate my ability. 00:25:08 Aethaeryn: Yeah -- "hobby", "not intended for others" -- those are all part of that same curse... 00:25:45 cky: That's one of the goals. IIRC, he has a kind of an ffi for talking to plain JS code too. 00:26:50 Aethaeryn, the thing about hacking on a large project is that it's more ambitious, yes, and the effort/fun curve is quite a bit flatter at the outset; but the payoff is _much_ greater, and your part in that larger project will give you opportunities to grow that a plaything never would. 00:27:34 Aethaeryn, and in the end, dedication and perserverance will build a much better final product than mere programming skill. 00:28:02 Aethaeryn, for my part, I would take one dedicated, methodical, conscientious coder over ten rock stars any day of the week. 00:28:14 woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has joined #scheme 00:28:22 (in fact, at $DAY_JOB, I am struggling to make exactly that tradeoff) 00:30:25 eli: Awesome! 00:35:06 gnomon, eli: Again, this is more of an exercise for me to learn certain things, it's not something serious. Perhaps I'll learn what you're trying to tell me and find out months later that it should've been a library. Idk. 00:36:19 It's *just* for fun. Any practical use that it may provide to others is merely accidental. 00:36:26 Aethaeryn, fair enough. Thanks for taking the feedback in the intended spirit! 00:37:13 I'm just doing this to dig deeper into the internals than I would otherwise have to dig. Failure is probable, not just possible. 00:42:48 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:33 *gnomon* looks around for chandler 00:47:28 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 00:48:18 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:49:00 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:07 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:50:23 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 00:50:51 -!- mgs [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:27 mgs [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:51:54 b4284 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:22 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SquareBrackets <-- which impls do what with [] 00:56:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:31 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:00:32 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 01:01:09 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:12 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:06:28 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-69-136-24-18.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:12:15 arcfide [~arcfide@c-69-136-24-18.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:46 -!- arbn [~arbn@pool-74-98-200-128.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:16:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:20:48 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has joined #scheme 01:22:29 jcowan: You have the usual confusion between "identifer" and "symbol". 01:22:39 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:23:14 This is what I meant about expressing JS in Scheme (I'm sticking to JSON for now as it's an easy subset): https://github.com/Aethaeryn/S-script/blob/master/doc/sson.md 01:23:21 Fortunately, everything except the syntactic sugar should be portable. 01:24:02 Aethaeryn: Just JSON is a tiny part; in any case, you already have problems in that description. 01:24:32 eli: I'm sure I already have problems. If I was confident I didn't have problems, I wouldn't paste it here. 01:25:07 Aethaeryn, aww - you wouldn't share the good stuff with us? 01:25:09 I'm not going to work on implementing something that, well, doesn't work. 01:25:20 gnomon: Oh, I meant that I wouldn't share a document that describes something that hasn't been coded yet. 01:25:34 Aethaeryn: The implicit expectation is that dictionaries have constant-ish lookup time, ie, implemented as hash tables. 01:26:07 That means that either your sexpr based representation fails to satisfy that, or you're relying on some implicit semantics of some `js-object' that constructs a hash table. 01:28:28 eli: Yes, it relies on an implicit optimization. Is this bad? 01:29:38 Aethaeryn: Not bad in itself, just renders that document as something that is not too useful. 01:29:42 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-194.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:29:53 The idea was to keep this "high level". 01:30:21 "High-level" is one thing, but this makes it more on the "incomplete" side. 01:30:41 As a side-note, there are a *lot* of JSON libraries in the Lisp/Scheme world, looking at them would be useful. 01:31:33 eli: That would be more helpful if you told me where I had this confusion. 01:31:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:41 Nice, Nitrogen Services will deliver LN2 down to as little as 5 liters! 01:31:42 Err 01:31:47 wrong buffer 01:31:58 Eh, more interesting over here, I think 01:32:10 How much do they want? 01:32:13 Aethaeryn: BTW, if you have some optimization that is done by functions in the intended language then (js-object (key . value) (key . value) ...) doesn't make sense as a piece of Scheme code, since it's invalid syntax for code. 01:32:28 jcowan, I can't find a price, but I'm about to email them for a quote. 01:32:29 jcowan: No scheme should evaluate '[a as an *identifer*. 01:32:31 jcowan, http://www.nitrogenservices.com 01:32:46 They're just a few klicks from my seekrit underwater cave. 01:33:03 IOW, "identifier" is a piece of syntax, "symbol" is a piece of data, 'foo evaluates to the latter. 01:33:48 eli: Yes, the ... is invalid, it was meant to show that any arbitrary number of keys and values could be provided. 01:33:55 eli: Is there a Scheme convention for that? 01:35:02 Aethaeryn: I mean the (key . value) -- that means that `js-object' can't be a function, it must be a macro. 01:35:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:35:54 So sould I explicitly state that it is a macro in the document? 01:36:29 You can call it "library syntax" if you prefer, just like R5RS. ;-) 01:36:39 I'm operating under the assumption that anything with less convenient syntax would be extremely annoying to work with, forcing people to maintain both JavaScript and Scheme in their codebase. 01:36:55 The idea is for one to *never* have to touch JavaScript 01:37:05 Aethaeryn: I'd suggest you use a syntax that's more similar to let, however. 01:37:16 If you intend for people to write it, then a much saner approach is to just use lists for [...] and hash tables for {...}. 01:37:28 eli: Right, like Clojure. 01:37:30 Without requiring any macros (or functions). 01:37:43 This means that you can write literal JSON-like values. 01:38:09 cky: I'm just fresh on the details since I recently added this: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/json/ 01:38:17 The problem is that lists are not the same thing as JavaScript arrays. JavaScript arrays are implemented as JS objects and lists are conses of cons cells 01:38:45 eli: Ooh, dherman/json is getting integrated into Racket core? :-) 01:38:57 Aethaeryn: You can easily switch s/list/vector/ 01:39:10 cky: Yeah, I started from dherman's code, but then revised it a lot. 01:39:19 eli: Neat. :-) 01:39:41 cky: It's specifically something that could be extended in the future, as in allowing an alternative interpretation like using vectors for [...]s 01:40:07 Cool! 01:40:09 Parhaps also some "streaming api" like neilv's package, but that's not needed ATM. 01:40:14 eli: Some Schemes treat #\[ as an ordinary identifier character. 01:40:29 That is consistent with R5RS 01:40:49 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:41:31 eli: Ah, I see what you mean. I changed "identifier" to "symbol" 01:42:02 jcowan: Yes, that's the confusion. 01:43:17 opticbt [~opticbt@71-209-189-34.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:59 I originally wrote "evaluates as the symbol [a" etc etc and then revised it, but incompletey 01:47:08 pletely 01:50:02 jcowan: n00b 01:50:14 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:50:46 Eh, I need an editor. Everyone needs an editor, even editors 01:50:57 even the Pope has a confessor 01:51:08 That's an easy problem to solve, jcowan. Throw away ex and start up Emacs. 01:51:16 *qu1j0t3* guffaws 01:51:21 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:21 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:51:21 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 01:55:59 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has joined #scheme 01:56:13 Those things are written in the Web browser, Riastradh. 01:56:20 Anyway, that's not the kind of editor I need. 01:56:25 eli: Ah. I think I see your point, now. 01:56:42 Well, *my* web browser defers to Emacs whenever I want to edit a text field. 01:56:49 eli: I could set [ ] as the same as ( ) and use lists, making one of the syntactic sugar translations unnecessary. 01:56:58 And just say by convention to use the square brackets rather than the parens. 01:57:18 However, presumably you want [] and {} lists to be self-quoting (or self-backquoting, perhaps) 01:57:51 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:21 Riastradh: You gave up on an in-emacs broswer? 01:59:46 eli, emacs-w3m is the quickest way I know to reliably segfault Emacs... 02:00:02 me and emacs-w3m have never gotten on 02:00:37 Just asking... 02:00:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:00:51 (Also, even if I used an in-emacs browser, it would still defer to Emacs whenever I want to edit a text field...) 02:00:54 Next up, an in-DrRacket browser.... 02:01:00 I finally discovered a tool to make chrome talk to Emacs "recently". 02:01:23 "Edit with Emacs" 02:01:26 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:05 But it's not like the real thing... 02:02:22 See, once you have an in-DrRacket browser and an in-DrRacket paredit (both written in Racket, of course), then DrRacket could soon become an Emacs replacement. ;-) ;-) ;-) 02:02:36 *eli* avoids an obvious pun with contraceptives 02:03:11 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:03:14 cky: We have a browser implemented, but it's only useful with very simple html (it was written a *long* time ago), 02:03:26 as for replacing emacs, I think that it's a hopeless case. 02:03:34 Hehehehe. 02:04:48 emacs will outlive us all 02:05:36 leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:08:06 Emacs, windows, cockroaches, and iphones. 02:08:08 *eli* sighs 02:10:38 +1 02:26:24 lusory [~lusory@bb115-66-194-180.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 02:29:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-209-224-41.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:29:40 What's the difference between (list 1 2 3 4) and '(1 2 3 4) in Scheme? Both seem to evaluate to #t in (list?). Is the difference that (list) evaluates the S-expressions within the list except for the ones at the same level, and (quote) just quotes the whole thing? (e.g. (list (1 (+ 1 2)) vs. '(1 (+ 1 2))) 02:30:14 well, yes, sure 02:30:32 there's nothing invisible or mysterious; you seem to have described the difference 02:30:37 rudybot: (list 1 2 3 4) 02:30:37 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3 4) 02:30:41 rudybot: '(1 2 3 4) 02:30:41 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3 4) 02:30:45 no difference 02:30:54 rudybot: (list 1 2 (+ 1 2)) 02:30:54 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3) 02:30:59 rudybot: '(1 2 (+ 1 2)) 02:30:59 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 (+ 1 2)) 02:31:02 big difference 02:31:17 Aethaeryn: (define f (lambda () (list 1 2 3))) (define g (lambda () '(1 2 3))) (eq? (f) (f)) (eq? (g) (g)) 02:31:51 hm, ok, good point 02:31:58 Aethaeryn: (list (1 (+ 1 2)) vs. '(1 (+ 1 2))) is invalid, because 1 is not a variable bound to a function. 02:31:59 dunno if that behavior is guaranteed though 02:32:58 Aethaeryn: '(1 2 3 4) is a quoted literal. 02:33:13 Aethaeryn: (list 1 2 3 4) evaluates to a freshly-constructed list. 02:33:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 02:33:32 morning. 02:33:37 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 02:33:47 Aethaeryn: For Scheme implementations with mutable conses (i.e., everything other than Racket, to my knowledge), only the freshly-constructed list is safe to modify. 02:33:54 Aethaeryn: Literals are not safe to modify. 02:34:15 (In the cases of conses, modifying means using set-car!, set-cdr!, or another function that uses either of those.) 02:35:07 How viable it is to use Kawa for enterprise android app development? 02:35:18 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:35:31 Hmm. I think Google App Inventor was built on Kawa. 02:36:42 Riastradh: it is encouraging. Other than that, I haven't seen alot of stories/blogs of people using kawa for android? 02:37:50 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 02:40:57 offby1: Yes, it's not guaranteed; pjb demonstrates yet again a CL-centric point of view... 02:42:32 Okay, I now tried to be simpler with my way of writing JSON in Scheme. https://github.com/Aethaeryn/S-script/blob/master/doc/sson.md 02:42:43 What's wrong this time? :-) 02:43:23 leo2007: well there aren't a whole lot of stories about people using scheme for much of anything 02:43:46 that shouldn't necessarily be taken as a discouraging sign 02:43:52 turbofail: That's going to change eventually. 02:43:56 turbofail: indeed 02:44:34 turbofail: I just read some blogs about kawa on android and it is encouraging. The size overhead is about 1M but no performance degradation. 02:44:56 -!- copumpkin is now known as BarackObama 02:47:09 Someone should get the word out about the us president's secret. 02:47:17 s/us/US/ 02:47:20 what is? 02:47:25 what is it? 02:47:55 "22:44 *** copumpkin -> BarackObama" 02:47:57 -!- BarackObama is now known as copumpkin 02:47:58 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:48:09 He's a Schemer? 02:48:18 *copumpkin* sends the secret service to eli's house. No one can know 02:48:18 Apparently. 02:48:36 *eli* turns off the lights and goes to the basement 02:48:50 Romney codes in Java! 02:49:06 :-P 02:52:16 -!- simathur [~simathur@192.100.106.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:06 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:53:08 Aethaeryn: does that mean Romney is the republican candidate, or is that race still ongoing? 02:53:26 -!- opticbt [~opticbt@71-209-189-34.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:32 *ijp* has been happily ignorant of american politics for >6 months now 02:54:10 He has more than the required number of delegates, but he hasn't been officially nominated. 02:54:13 In fact, Utah votes in two days! 02:54:53 I see 02:55:06 (Spoiler: Mitt was always going to win Utah, even if there was still a competitive election right now) 02:55:09 you guys sure know how to drag an election out 02:55:36 Legacy s/code/politics. 02:55:54 The primary system still isn't where it should be, even today. 02:56:32 The US has the oldest constitution so... well... of course there's a lot of things that would be done differently if it was started today rather than in the 18th century. 02:57:22 s/oldest constitution/"oldest charter of supreme law in continuous use" 02:57:27 There, now someone can argue with Wikipedia rather than me. 02:57:42 we give our parties a month, can't say I feel worse off for it 02:58:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:00:05 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:00:22 Note how some states have a difference between most delegates won and popular vote won (in the map) and how delegates are often assigned on a different date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_presidential_primaries,_2012 03:00:22 http://tinyurl.com/cu86vzd 03:00:27 (end hijacking this channel with off topic) 03:01:08 *gnomon* peers in, sees American politics, and flees 03:03:10 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:05:10 but ... 03:05:15 Google App Inventor doesn't seem to run on android. 03:05:25 I am trying it out. 03:06:53 I said "flees", offby1! 03:07:55 you're not fleeing very fast. 03:07:58 I can still hear you. 03:08:10 I'm getting to it, I'm getting to it. Sheesh, everyone's a critic. 03:08:39 *gnomon* shuffles towards the exit in a Brownian kind of way 03:08:47 offby1: well, maybe gnomon is fleeing fast, just not in a straight line 03:09:13 I could tell you exactly how fast I was fleeing, but then I would have no idea where I was. 03:10:59 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:11:39 This is perhaps no more on topic than politics, but is anyone here handy with a soldering iron? 03:11:49 I'm looking for recommendations. 03:12:09 *gnomon* awaits the inevitable "never pet a burning dog" recommendation 03:12:51 I used to use one when I was a tad, but can't recommend anything. 03:12:56 "Whatever model my Dad had". 03:13:21 Shucks. 03:13:45 I was seeking chandler, as I'm sure he has strongly held and hard-won opinions on the matter, but he seems to have been sucked out of this universe. 03:13:58 rudybot: seen chandler 03:13:58 *offby1: chandler_ was seen changing their nick to chandler in opendarwin/developer/chandler two weeks ago, and then chandler was seen in #racket one week ago, saying "neilv: what is the shell out to stty used for?" 03:15:10 *gnomon* prods chandler in various channels and across various media 03:18:04 -!- confab [~confab@50.13.178.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:18:54 gnomon: Brian Mastenbrook, Master Solderer. :-P 03:19:51 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed510.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:19:59 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f769f82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:53 Primary elections are actually late-19th-century 03:35:28 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:35:28 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:35:28 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:37:15 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:08 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 03:39:23 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:09 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-229-66.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:46:42 Is there a list of the r7rs libraries? 03:47:02 s/r7rs/r7rs-large 03:47:56 Aethaeryn: I've seen a spreadsheet somewhere.... 03:48:04 jcowan knows where it is, I'm certain. 03:48:38 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ar8UUpsyGZ0wdEtoMy0ta1piRDcwZUVQZ29wbk8yNEE&output=html 03:48:38 http://tinyurl.com/435pk3r 03:49:11 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 03:49:14 For more details, look at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/StandardDocket and http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ConsentDocket 03:49:29 -!- pjb is now known as Guest45128 03:49:39 The input hopper (not yet approved as packages) is http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RevoteDocket 03:49:45 -!- Guest45128 is now known as pjb 03:49:51 Oh wow, &output=html 03:49:57 That's kinda cool and useful 03:50:25 You have to publish the document for that to work 03:50:30 File/Publish to the Web 03:50:52 nope, it works for me on something I didn't publish 03:50:57 At least, just for me :-p 03:51:13 Yeah, not unlikely. 03:51:17 Is there any very, very long update newer than the /. one? http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/10/04/1942209/r7rs-scheme-progress-report 03:51:18 http://tinyurl.com/3rdvj46 03:51:30 Oh wow, you're the John Cowan from that article 03:51:48 Yup 03:51:51 Why is the Lisp world so incredibly close on IRC? 03:51:56 You never, e.g. see rms in #gnu 03:52:07 that's because rms doesn't have a consistent internet connection 03:52:09 Lots of it is not 03:52:19 Yes, he's orbiting somewhere beyond Jupiter 03:52:27 Aethaeryn: rms uses wget to fetch irc but never reply. 03:52:47 Aethaeryn, on that note, do you know who eli is? 03:52:51 Uh oh. That means some things I've said in FSF-related channels might have found their way back to him? 03:53:12 gnomon: Someone involved with racket, I can just /whois to find their hostmask 03:53:17 Aethaeryn: And "Unknown Lamer" (poster of that /. article) hangs out in #guile as unknown_lamer. Small world, huh? :-P 03:53:33 IRC is like the secret handshake of the code-writing world. 03:54:06 fortunately, its initiation rites are a lot less retarded than those of the skull & bones society 03:54:09 Aethaeryn: Eli Barzilay isn't "just" "someone involved with racket". He's one of the core developers who's developed large parts of Racket. 03:54:42 Well, I found https://plus.google.com/115730576737402335315/posts and http://www.blogger.com/profile/08165322672792335619 earlier 03:54:54 On http://blog.racket-lang.org/ 03:55:06 Based on that, and his statements, I assumed he was a core developer. 03:55:21 OTOH, there are many Scheme elders who have rarely or never appeared here 03:55:30 cky: It's just something I didn't bring up because it's kinda creepy maybe for some that I Google people I /whois on IRC sometimes. 03:55:37 turbofail: they didn't make you dress up as a duck and swim around in a pond while singing the national anthem of slovenia? 03:55:59 Aethaeryn: Everybody knows what /whois does, if they care about privacy they'd obscure their name, hostmask, etc. ;-) 03:56:23 Well, at least it's a drinking song 03:56:38 *jcowan* thinks the U.S. national anthem should be selected verses of America the Beautiful 03:56:48 cky: I think Facebook (among others) shows that many people (although I hope technically literate people are not in this group) are not aware the degree to which certain services remove their privacy. 03:57:28 ijp: no, i did that voluntarily 03:57:35 ah 03:57:42 tupi [~david@189.67.143.89] has joined #scheme 03:58:02 Aethaeryn, most folks on here (and in this channel specifically) know _precisely_ what information they are publishing, and know the exquisitely fine nuances of etiquette associated with each byte. 03:58:08 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:58:20 -!- tupi [~david@189.67.143.89] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:15 I frequently accidentally violate all sorts of etiquette because I spend too much time with code and not enough time with people. 03:59:51 That's a plus in this crowd, not a minus! 04:01:17 Aethaeryn: Yeah. For my part, I assume that everything I post to my Facebook is more or less public. 04:01:23 If you tell anybody anything, you have basically told everybody *who cares*. 04:01:23 Aethaeryn: So I use it more like Twitter. ;-) 04:01:29 Fortunately, most people don't care. 04:01:57 I use code so much, I'd speak in code, but then I'd accidentally (format t "hi") here or (display "hi\n") in #lisp, thus starting a holy war. ;-P 04:02:28 My general impression is that that holy war has mostly died down. 04:02:28 Aethaeryn: Hey, at least you're not accidentally posting PHP here. ;-) 04:02:50 I've (fortunately) managed to stay away from PHP. 04:03:12 JavaScript, however, is something I can't avoid. 04:03:36 jcowan: the machines care :) 04:04:40 ijp, machines care about as much as submarines swim! 04:04:48 ...to mangle a phrase. 04:05:28 rudybot: you care, right? 04:05:29 ijp: If nothing else, the health care situation has built some impressive snark. 04:05:40 evidently not 04:11:22 -!- turbofail [~user@99-121-57-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:12:17 Well, maybe you shouldn't have presupposed the answer. 04:13:45 jcowan, I want to bring you to my management presentations just so you can repeat that line over and over again. 04:14:36 *jcowan* laughs. 04:15:06 I once spent a whole meeting with my boss repeating "Your question cannot be answered in the form in which you asked it." 04:15:10 Admittedly, I was very young. 04:15:25 rudybot: do you care? 04:15:26 jcowan: (you could actually look at the bytecode itself if you reallly care, but it probably wouldn't increase the accuracy of the results very much) 04:15:33 Now that's more like it. 04:15:42 rudybot: You don't care, do you? 04:15:43 jcowan: no. not silly at all. 20,000,000 online with skype feeling free and it being "for free". They are free to use a free program with no license or connect fee. That is pretty free. They dont care about the source. Neither do I to be honest. not for that program. 04:16:01 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:21 Presuppositions rule. 04:16:52 confab [~confab@50.13.178.125] has joined #scheme 04:33:43 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-24-90-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:53 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:37:49 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:52 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 04:58:04 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.169.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02:01 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.217.91] has joined #scheme 05:02:36 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:02:37 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:22 -!- phao [phao@187.91.182.194] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 05:06:37 phao [phao@187.91.182.194] has joined #scheme 05:07:29 -!- phao [phao@187.91.182.194] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:38 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 05:18:12 Presuppositions? 05:23:22 Embedded in statements or questions. 05:23:30 "Do you care?" has no presupposition. 05:23:47 "You care, don't you?" and "You don't care, do you?" have opposing presuppositions. 05:24:04 "When did you stop beating your wife?" depends for its humor on an embedded presupposition. 05:24:16 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30:11 interesting 05:38:55 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:43:12 Hmm, I have now added a Frequently Asserted Objections section to my documentation that I can link to every time I ask for help in this channel now. :-P 05:44:42 Hopefully this will prevent this channel from being hijacked again on "Yet another Scheme? Why?" stuff. 05:49:09 While we're on the subject... _why_ another Scheme? 05:49:16 *mgs* trolls 05:57:01 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:01:06 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 06:06:10 mgs: https://github.com/Aethaeryn/S-script/blob/master/doc/objection.md 06:06:54 Aethaeryn: thank you :D 06:13:11 And now it's time to bury myself in documentation and guides for some time between 2 days and 10 years. 06:13:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.62.200] has joined #scheme 06:13:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.62.200] has quit [Changing host] 06:13:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 06:18:11 jewel [~jewel@196.215.148.118] has joined #scheme 06:18:45 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:25:18 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 06:25:18 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:18 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 06:27:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:29:06 Aethaeryn: can I use parts of that in http://andydude.github.com/droscheme/? 06:30:49 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.217.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:45 adu: Sure 06:34:25 Aethaeryn, i'm also in the process of writing a scheme->js compiler 06:34:27 ... 06:34:28 :) 06:35:53 i failed once due to lack of self-hosting, and the insistence to implement the whole numerical tower, which was horribly inefficient 06:36:11 other than that, i had a correct CPS-xform, dynamic-wind, and so on 06:36:54 adu: I just gave up all rights to the documentation using CC0. 06:37:09 Copyright for the documentation here is really not important. In fact, it gets in the way. 06:37:34 weirdo: Cool. :-) 06:37:55 *weirdo* always starts writing a lisp with the reader 06:40:04 then a code walker 06:44:32 https://github.com/Aethaeryn/S-script/blob/master/doc/license.md 06:44:49 There, it's public domain, do whatever you want with it anyone. 06:45:05 Aethaeryn, will it be sexps for js, or a full scheme? 06:45:16 weirdo: Both, actually. 06:45:28 wonder which one of us finishes first 06:45:40 I'm going to first write a sexp translator for JS, and then use this to do all the JS code. 06:45:49 weirdo: You have a head start! 06:46:01 but i have a job :< 06:46:16 Ah, being a student has its advantages. 06:46:16 jason [~user@99-121-57-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:46:19 :) 06:46:31 FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 06:46:41 -!- jason is now known as Guest74146 06:46:44 -!- Guest74146 is now known as turbofail 06:49:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:49:15 weirdo: Which r*rs are you aiming for? 06:49:23 Aethaeryn, 7 dash 6 06:50:14 Ah, cool. So they'll be interoperability, maybe. 06:50:42 ? 06:50:47 what kind of interop? 06:51:01 I mean, a library could possibly be written for both implementations. 06:51:06 ah, yes 06:54:16 weirdo: Do you use Lisp or Scheme in your job? 06:54:25 Aethaeryn, none whatsoever. :< 06:54:29 :-( 06:54:34 i use c, c#, java, python... 06:54:44 weirdo: You should really lecture your bosses about Blub! :-P 06:55:06 and they'll lecture me how hard it's to find programmers for exotic languages 06:55:56 Eh, that's why my evil goal that will probably never be achieved is to have *really* good (and really high level) libraries for HTML 5 in-browser applications. 06:56:25 Aethaeryn, i have an idea, too 06:56:30 you know AJAX? 06:56:34 There's lots of noise with JavaScript so it's hard to get to the quality stuff. There's a tradition of lazy people with deadlines not wanting to actually learn JS before coding it. 06:56:36 combine it with call/cc 06:56:43 and we win 06:56:44 :-) 06:56:47 Ah. 06:56:54 cooperative multitasking 06:57:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.148.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:53 think of it 06:59:10 weirdo: What are you going to use for the server side? node.js or a native Scheme or something else? 06:59:25 Aethaeryn, probably node.js for max compat 06:59:35 wait... 06:59:35 no 06:59:38 i'm gonna use google v8 06:59:45 dunno of its ffi 06:59:45 Directly. Ah. 07:00:03 either that or write another backend 07:00:19 hmm... 07:02:03 but IMO there's little need for sexp-js 07:02:13 easier to prototype with inline js 07:02:33 There's probably not much need for it. 07:02:55 I'm more curious than anything else. 07:04:46 it'll be awkward 07:04:51 unless you do method calls using [] 07:08:36 eh, writing the reader is more involved than i thought, because of (foo . bar) 07:08:38 but almost done 07:08:47 got 42/69 already, same for 1.37 07:08:51 i.e. numbers 07:09:06 heed my words, supporting the full numerical tower is plainly impossible in js 07:09:12 makes any numerical operation 10 times slower 07:09:22 not to mention trig 07:12:04 Thanks. 07:12:21 weirdo: What tests do you use? 07:13:16 Aethaeryn, so far, only scheme-pitfalls 07:13:21 at least for seaking1 07:13:23 -!- FRSHPRNCFBLR [~noone@CPE00222d560998-CM00222d560995.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:13:28 seaking2 might have some actual test suite 07:13:37 the problem is, i don't know Scheme macros 07:13:38 only CL ones 07:13:51 and this will prove problematic to write any code that uses scheme hygienic macros 07:13:55 i prefer stinking ones 07:15:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:19:28 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 07:19:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:28 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:29:21 Aethaeryn, ever tried type reconstruction? 07:30:22 though i probably won't need it with just integers and floats 07:30:24 no benefit 07:32:25 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-11-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:37:13 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:37:19 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:42:26 weirdo: I've actually not encountered it before and had to look it up on Wikipedia. It seems interesting. 07:42:52 Aethaeryn, don't do the numerical tower or type reconstruction, you'll never finish 07:43:01 i have a half-done scheme with type reconstruction that's half-finished 07:43:05 and half-broken 07:43:14 i do like SUBTYPEP in CL 07:43:15 what's type reconstruction? 07:43:33 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_inference 07:43:35 adu, getting as many types as possible 07:43:44 and if not there, just continuing 07:44:05 oh, like positive, one, integer 07:44:16 no 07:44:42 as many types as in, not all types can be inferred 07:44:56 in my scheme I take the top of the type latice of two numerical types 07:49:54 -!- roderic_ is now known as roderic 07:50:00 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:56:57 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has left #scheme 07:58:22 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 07:59:45 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 08:00:01 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Client Quit] 08:02:13 ok, reading symbols and dotted lists mostly works 08:02:15 same for numbers 08:02:19 Aethaeryn, wanna join forces? 08:02:28 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:03:11 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:14 weirdo: I don't want to let you down in the event that this turns out to be a major failure. 08:03:29 I have a tendency to... be overly ambitious in my goals. 08:03:31 Aethaeryn, do you know yet how to do CPS? 08:04:56 This? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style 08:04:59 yes 08:05:08 but the example is wrong, k is passed as the 1st arg 08:05:11 in that aspect 08:05:23 I don't know the term, and I haven't done it in Scheme/Lisp, but the description sounds *extremely* familiar 08:05:24 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:26 Like, extremely familiar. 08:05:53 ok, time to take a break from lisping 08:06:25 The S-script interpreter will run on top of JavaScript. It will be able to interpret a r7rs-small Scheme that is capable of interacting directly with S2JS and SSON. 08:06:28 this is bad 08:06:32 you want a compiler, not an interpreter 08:06:43 weirdo: Oh, I was going to do both. 08:06:53 why do you even bother with an interpreter? 08:06:59 it's just more work, and useless at that 08:07:11 there are far too many scheme interpreters in js 08:07:19 all of them slow and incomplete 08:07:27 weirdo: There's no way to do it quickly? 08:07:37 Well, none worth it I guess 08:07:39 interpreter? no 08:07:44 you need to eval() closures 08:07:50 which compiles them to native chrome in google v8 08:08:03 s/chrome/code 08:08:03 ;D 08:08:45 yay! a new episode of true blood. i dunno why i like this campy tv show 08:09:37 weirdo: ooo what is SSON? 08:10:03 adu, something Aethaeryn invented 08:10:10 or rather, documented ;) 08:10:44 something to consider: http://drosoft.org/drosera-specs/dro.html 08:10:59 adu, weirdo: I didn't write it yet because I wanted to get some feedback on the syntax. 08:11:10 skip to "DROS" 08:12:21 adu: Ah, that's actually rather close. The original had (key . value) 08:12:41 I tried to pick idiomatic things :) 08:13:24 in fact, in my scheme, #:key value is syntactic sugar for ('key . value) 08:14:14 adu: I'm not sure if I should have the . there though, since when broken up into several lines, I can clearly forsee the . leading to many, *many* syntax errors in the future. 08:14:17 By humans who write it 08:15:26 weirdo: Okay, I'm updating documentation to reflect that I'm skipping to the compiler since that's where the interest is. 08:15:49 Aethaeryn, wanna svn co my source? 08:15:54 heh ok 08:17:14 adu: I do agree with you about ('key . value) being more correct, though. 08:17:43 I guess it'll ultimately depend on how I feel when I implement it 08:17:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.70] has joined #scheme 08:17:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.70] has quit [Changing host] 08:17:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 08:18:06 but I have noticed that both guile and racket support #:key syntax 08:18:15 so that was my half-assed impl of it 08:18:25 Yes. 08:18:35 The problem with looking at Scheme is there's lots of Schemes to look at. 08:18:37 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:18:39 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:19:21 weirdo: Sure, but keep in mind that I'm way behind you. At the moment, I'm compiling a reading and video list. 08:19:37 So it might be several weeks until I have enough design ideas from enough sources. 08:20:38 Aethaeryn: what I did is I made a choice: "I'm only going to look at schemes where (not (eqv? +0.0 -0.0))" and suprisingly, that kills most schemes out there 08:21:09 or was it +inf -inf... 08:22:05 http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/scheme/choices.html 08:23:01 Aethaeryn, http://arma.misaki.pl/svn/seaking2/ 08:23:18 it's very minimal r5rs that's written in 08:23:31 not even separate types for data types 08:23:34 adu: that's useful 08:23:41 symbols will be tagged as symbols once it compiles to js 08:24:06 i won't wrap them, just introduce a js-property 08:25:46 (not (eqv? 0.0 -0.0)) is true in guile and racket, which are the two I'm looking at while writing droscheme 08:27:41 that expression is false in: gauche, mit, sisc 08:43:36 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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[realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-qwqkjwyxphictulh] has joined #scheme 18:33:31 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 18:33:36 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 18:33:55 pjb: i disagree, it uses CL read-macros over the wire (#.( ..) for example). in my book, that makes it *very* CL specific 18:34:32 i.e. it isn't just "s-expressions", but partly meant to be directly executable (which won't work well in non-CLs). that isn't to say it's impossible (as R and several Schemes prove) 18:46:04 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 18:48:55 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:05 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 18:51:34 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 18:52:55 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 18:53:17 getpwnam [~ian@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 18:53:52 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 18:56:31 -!- bro_grammer [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:31 -!- random_malice [~ian@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:57:39 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:27 -!- tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.131.69] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:02:50 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #scheme 19:03:10 tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.131.69] has joined #scheme 19:09:00 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60B2A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:10:55 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 19:14:05 dzhus [~dzhus@95-24-90-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:16:06 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:20 ecraven: this doesn't matter because of Greenspun's Tenth law. 19:16:55 :p that's one way to see it :D 19:18:42 -!- woonie [~woonie@175.156.195.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:19:21 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[~fantazo@91.119.217.91] has joined #scheme 20:01:05 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:05 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:01:05 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 20:08:47 -!- BigEndian [~hurp@li230-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:10:34 -!- tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.131.69] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:11:25 tejaswi [~tejaswidp@117.192.131.69] has joined #scheme 20:12:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.148.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:36 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:15:27 hola, buenas noches 20:16:32 Suthe: hola 20:16:54 qu1j0t3: hi (wrong channel to /amsg in spanish, sorry) 20:17:49 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:20:08 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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