00:02:05 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD616D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:05:14 -!- phao [phao@187.91.147.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:13 -!- albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:06:16 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 00:13:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 00:14:11 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:23:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:18 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34:19 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 00:55:38 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #scheme 01:01:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:16 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:02:23 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 01:02:33 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:28 b4284 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:08 hmm the r5rs isn't that hard to read 01:06:44 phao [phao@187.91.147.25] has joined #scheme 01:06:53 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:07:21 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 01:11:05 -!- kreol[Ukr] [~kreol@85.198.171.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:39 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:04 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:18:28 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 01:30:24 lewis1711: hard to read in a spec should be a bug, I think. 01:38:53 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:33 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-242.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:54:40 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 01:55:52 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #scheme 01:56:07 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:48 asumu: I'd always just assumed language standards weren't meant for mortals to read 01:58:09 lewis1711: I love language standards 01:58:09 lewis1711: well, the C and C++ language standards fall into that category I think :) 01:58:15 hey mark 01:58:20 hi adu! 01:58:31 how is guile going? 01:58:50 ah I thought the name was familiar 01:59:29 Exciting times for Guile! 01:59:48 really? I should research, or you should tell! 02:00:24 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 02:00:26 I gave up on droscheme after implementing all but 2 r5rs functions 02:00:43 well, for one thing there is ongoing work on the compiler, leading toward native code compilation hopefully in the next year or so. currently wingo is switching to a register-based VM from the older stack-based VM. 02:01:43 also, Brad Templeton is doing his third GSoC project to implement elisp in Guile, with the goal of replacing Emacs' built-in lisp interpreter with Guile. 02:01:52 oOo, I know x86-64, can I help? 02:02:02 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 02:02:17 sure, we can surely use the help! 02:02:36 subscribe to guile-devel@gnu.org and hang out on #guile :) 02:03:47 ubuntu finally has guile 2. good show 02:04:22 (in the repos) 02:04:22 indeed, it is in Ubuntu 12.04 and also the upcoming Debian wheezy (currently in testing) 02:06:38 -!- turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:07:40 just reading the changes between 1.8 to 2.0 02:08:14 turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has joined #scheme 02:08:14 -!- turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:20 turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has joined #scheme 02:10:53 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:11:23 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 02:12:11 lewis1711: Guile 2 was a _very_ substantial upgrade from earlier versions. 02:13:32 mark_weaver: indeed. reading the new FFI docs. the dynamic FFI looks like a huge leap forward wrt to interop with C 02:14:06 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 02:14:11 yes, indeed. and that's not even the biggest new feature, which is the switch from a tree interpreter to a compiler with VM. 02:14:31 (and the infrastructure to easily add support for new languages) 02:15:54 of course, but I the dynamic FFI is the biggest one for me. I tried to use 1.8 once, and it was decidedly more difficult to do. mind you, I barely knew C at the time which didn't help 02:18:43 -!- turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:19:18 http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structs.html#Foreign-Structs ahhh 02:19:18 http://tinyurl.com/7cdkku8 02:20:35 no question, the dynamic FFI is a big win :) 02:29:19 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 02:29:51 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:35:24 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:39:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:42:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:43:16 -!- bfig is now known as fruitbag 02:46:01 whitequark [~whitequar@2a00:ab00:1::4464:5550] has joined #scheme 02:46:24 -!- whitequark [~whitequar@2a00:ab00:1::4464:5550] has left #scheme 02:46:46 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 02:47:26 -!- fruitbag is now known as bfig 02:47:26 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-73-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:47:41 bfig [~b_fin_g@r190-135-73-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:58:19 just learned about the '# comment thing many schemes have. quality of life has improved 03:02:46 syntax-rules is always indented weirdly 03:09:44 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:26 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:16:06 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-24-12-144-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:02 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:19:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:21:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:24:35 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:56 -!- SrPx [b185811b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.133.129.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:33:52 lewis1711: what's a '# comment? Is that like #;? 03:34:04 comments out an s-expression 03:34:30 oh no wait 03:34:35 it was just quoting it 03:34:41 :/ 03:35:05 #; does that in many Schemes though. 03:35:23 (it's in SRFI-62) 03:36:13 -!- phao [phao@187.91.147.25] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 03:48:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.169] has joined #scheme 03:48:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.169] has quit [Changing host] 03:48:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 03:49:53 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:50:19 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 04:08:10 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 04:10:08 imphasin1 [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:10:38 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:12 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:52 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-242.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:35:29 vibhu [~zorro@cpc10-acto3-2-0-cust392.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 06:35:42 -!- vibhu [~zorro@cpc10-acto3-2-0-cust392.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #scheme 06:42:59 perhaps I should learn emacs 06:43:01 *lewis1711* sighs 06:45:07 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:17 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-242.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:45:43 i'd recommend it 06:48:54 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:10:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:16:55 i recommend it as well 07:18:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.16] has joined #scheme 07:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.16] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 07:19:31 i'm using emacs + swank/slime + MIT/GNU Scheme.. works very well, tab-completion of identifiers, function signature shown, things like that 07:24:17 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 07:25:30 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 07:28:54 -!- peeeep [~potato@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:58 -!- sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:29:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:22 sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:29:49 peeeep [~potato@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:31:10 -!- mvuets [~mvuets@95.154.250.228] has quit [Quit: 73!] 07:34:40 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:36:07 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 07:39:46 I thought slime was just a CL thing 07:42:33 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:18 seems not 07:43:28 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:25 ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has joined #scheme 08:01:34 *Zuchto* likes vim better... even for scheme and such 08:05:56 Zuchto: what do you use for indenting? 08:06:32 lewis1711: vims basic lisp indentation and I do think paredit does some stuff with the indentation too 08:07:12 I just get annoyed in cases where it fails, like syntax-rules 08:07:23 fails? 08:08:51 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #scheme 08:10:05 indents incorrectly 08:11:50 with emacs, you can probably fix that 08:12:04 there's a lot of parameters and settings to play with with respect to indentation 08:12:20 lewis1711: i have had no problems with that. Besides adding a few words to lispwords to avoid getting code that is very wide I think it does a good job with the indentation. I'm sure emacs is a tiny bit better but I very much prefer the vim interface 08:13:38 what happens when you press enter after (syntax-rules () 08:13:40 whats wrong with just using TAB and manual indentation? ;p 08:13:49 yeah I guess 08:13:59 it's not that important just a tiny bit annoying 08:14:42 I tend to find these auto formatting things just annoying 08:15:35 -!- eni is now known as albacker 08:15:40 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:15:40 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 08:15:47 ecraven: Does MIT have specific swank/slime bindings; or is it somehow implementation-agnostic? 08:15:55 youlysse` [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:16:01 -!- albacker is now known as eni 08:16:30 syntax-rules should just use the same formatting as CASE, no? 08:20:19 leppie: yeah pretty much 08:22:06 no clue really, that's just how i see it written everywhere 08:22:35 ijp` [~user@host86-167-250-250.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 08:24:02 -!- ijp [~user@host109-154-209-221.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:24:40 klutometis: specific swank server 08:25:16 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 08:25:30 klutometis: i don't think there's an implementation-agnostic way of handling slime. it is *very* CL-specific, some things are not simple to get working in any Scheme (for example the wire-protocol includes CL reader-macros, which most Schemes won't even parse into anything). 08:28:30 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:44:53 leppie: being able to do things like =ap is pretty much worth it to me. Even if the indentation isn't exactly how i want it i at least don't have to bother with doing it manually. 08:45:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-242.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:07 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:33 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-251.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:57:46 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3BBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:14:55 -!- wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:28:15 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:18 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:28:32 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #scheme 09:29:41 -!- b4284 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:46 ijp`` 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[~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:55 noam [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 12:12:36 madmuppet006 [~user@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:17:42 ecraven: it's not that CL specific. There's a few swank backends for scheme, and one for R. 12:36:16 -!- madmuppet006 [~user@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:33 qand [~qand@107.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:37:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:43:49 b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 12:48:44 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 12:50:25 kk`` [~kk@217.155.42.31] has joined #scheme 12:53:04 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:56:58 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:59:41 -!- imphasin1 is now known as imphasing 13:05:40 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:06:25 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:03 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ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:11 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:14:25 mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:16:28 graspee [~graspee@5ada8652.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 15:24:36 -!- noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:56 noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 15:29:03 weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.misaki.pl] has joined #scheme 15:29:14 when is R7RS coming out? 15:30:17 As soon as the top is a beautiful golden brown and if you stick a toothpick in it, the toothpick comes out dry. 15:30:47 confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 15:31:00 wonder if should start implementing it already? 15:31:21 Riastradh: :-D 15:31:33 Riastradh: <3 15:34:41 is the draft 6 going to have some massive changes? 15:34:57 at least it's from 2012 feb, not 2010 or worse... 15:34:57 :( 15:37:04 would you prefer wg1 version or wg2 version 15:37:43 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 15:37:55 is wg2 a strict superset or are there big diffs? 15:38:11 damn, at a minimum i need 2 toothpicks 15:39:29 b4283, wg1 would be optimal... for now 15:39:33 wg2 is the heavyweight version 15:39:35 ah 15:39:52 b4283, but are they subset/superset or not? 15:40:02 if not, is the intersection large enough? 15:40:22 i think so, just read the webpages yesterday 15:40:48 ok, i'll implement it in JS 15:41:18 this attempt will have some kind of IR instead of straight code generation after xforms 15:41:21 like CPS 15:42:33 is draft 6 the newest one available to public w/o giving my soul to sussman or sth? 15:44:01 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.205.40] has joined #scheme 15:44:02 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.205.40] has quit [Changing host] 15:44:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #scheme 15:45:15 also i have a question, is that really necessary that dynamic-scoping unwind is in tail position of the form? 15:45:28 that slightly pessimizes 15:46:57 hey weirdo 15:47:09 you were building that scheme in javascript right? 15:48:22 t 15:48:32 -!- noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:38 #true is the r7rs spelling :) 15:48:40 :) 15:48:52 bad arch; no IR, no namespacing, no nothing 15:48:54 but it was good 15:48:56 for a time 15:48:57 noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 15:49:25 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:49:26 -!- getpwnam [~ian@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:50:33 ah 15:50:37 so it is no more? 15:50:44 i have source 15:50:49 but it's no good 15:51:04 `dynamic-scoping unwind is in tail position of the form'? 15:51:20 Riastradh, naive implementation works like dynamic-wind 15:51:49 another impl works like O(foo) 'context' inside the tail "context" so it's in tail pos but less efficient and consing 15:52:45 but you already knew that 15:53:50 time to read the draft... oh, shiny! 16:01:11 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 16:02:01 Riastradh, it's good you're still around because once i get to the macrology, i'm gonna be needing you to connect your fine macrologism 16:02:09 phao [phao@177.115.34.131] has joined #scheme 16:06:08 lewis1711: as someone who has long experience with both VIM and Emacs, I can say that while VIM can be made tolerable for Scheme work, Emacs is _much_ nicer. For Guile (or Racket), there is a very nice Emacs package called "Geiser" that makes Scheme work a joy. 16:06:44 -!- henne_ [~quassel@91-67-165-122-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:45 yes, geiser by jao is awesome 16:07:01 what about quack 16:07:09 quack has no proper repl 16:07:19 b4283, got any newer stuff than r7rs dash 6? 16:07:49 i didn't read it thoroughly, so .. :x 16:07:53 wingo: you get some interesting characters on guile-devel... 16:08:33 weirdo: you said time to read the drafts makes me wanna take a look at them as ewll 16:08:36 *well* 16:08:38 foof: you must be referring to the indominable dak :) 16:08:49 mmc2 [~michal@178-85-66-32.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 16:08:59 lol 16:09:10 inimitable? indomitable? 16:09:12 :) 16:09:33 yeah, a typo :) 16:10:22 inevitable. 16:11:33 i should ping will clinger about http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2012-May/006372.html 16:11:37 foof: believe it or not, dak is currently the primary defender of Scheme within the lilypond development community, but you wouldn't know it from his posts on guile-devel 16:11:49 i agree with him but i need a better example 16:13:35 I recall his earlier arguments that Scheme shouldn't be compilable. He and Tom Lord would get along. 16:13:45 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbec4a4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:13:53 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed869.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:31 if i've learned anything from my time with js implementations, it's that you can compile anything if you are willing to do it at runtime... 16:16:03 s/compilable/pre-compilable/ 16:16:22 yeah 16:17:49 *foof* notes the channel is more active during his waking hours when on Pacific time 16:20:04 You should stay on Pacific time. Actually, no, you should come over here to Eastern time. 16:20:39 I should also ask Will Clinger and/or Jonathan Rees why the eqv? "operational equivalence" language was dropped in R4RS. I suspect it's because it's tricky to come up with a proper definition. 16:20:53 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 16:22:26 Off topic, but maybe someone here knows: How the bloody hell do I disable this stupid !@*#&^@!&*$&^%!#^&!%$^&!* global binding of C-M-d to a completely useless operation in Mac OS X? 16:23:43 i only know a way to ignore it 16:24:06 I don't want to ignore it. I want the key back, damnit! 16:29:38 Sys prefs, keyboard, keyboard shortcuts. 16:31:05 What from there? 16:31:52 launchpad & doc and uncheck or change the keybinding for turn dock hiding on/off 16:33:26 That's command-option-d, not commad-control-d. 16:33:34 mark_weaver: We're struggling with that definition in R7RS. 16:33:57 oh... what happens when you type C-M-d? 16:34:20 In certain applications it looks up the word at the cursor, or the selected word, in the dictionary. 16:34:30 In certain other applications it does absolutely nothing. 16:36:06 -!- TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed869.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:36:27 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed869.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 16:36:37 What it's supposed to do is run down-list in Emacs. 16:38:00 Oh my, you're right, and I can't figure out how to disable it either. 16:38:28 You'd expect it to be in the services keybindings, but it's not, nor is it in the dictionary app prefs. 16:39:05 -!- anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:25 Nor does Google turn up anyone who knows how to disable it. 16:40:20 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.129.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:41:01 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 16:42:34 bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-52-136-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 16:43:45 I found someone for whom the key combo for the dictionary lookup didn't work. A comment suggested that Dictionary.app had to be in Applications rather than somewhere else. You might try moving it? 16:45:20 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:45:52 No change, I'm afraid. 16:46:03 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-189-17.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:54 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has joined #scheme 16:49:17 Hmm, bummer. :/ 16:49:53 We've got a mac with Mountain Lion around here, I wonder if it can be changed there. 16:50:53 Likely you'd have to reboot after moving Dictionary.app. 16:51:25 realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-wlfyhggdtvaiccwx] has joined #scheme 16:51:35 -!- ASau [~user@128-69-157-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:42 -!- bigfg is now known as bfig 16:53:12 ASau [~user@95-28-25-120.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:53:13 add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-50.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:56:28 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-251.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:58:07 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:15 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:58:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has joined #scheme 16:58:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 16:59:07 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:15 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #scheme 17:03:45 getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 17:04:35 hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 17:07:14 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:12:39 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-50.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 17:15:09 teurastaja [~chatzilla@modemcable168.103-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:15:29 keenbug_ [~daniel@p4FE3BBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:15:50 -!- keenbug_ is now known as keenbug 17:15:58 this is ridiculous: im searching for a scheme implementation for windows that has support for srfi-1 without needing to install mingw 17:16:02 does that exist? 17:16:09 preferably open source 17:16:19 but if i have no choice... 17:16:20 MIT Scheme? 17:16:59 isnt scheme supposed have many implementations to chose from? 17:17:00 (I don't know what mingw is or whether MIT Scheme needs it, but I don't think I have ever seen anything about mingw in MIT Scheme.) 17:17:19 mingw is a way to run linux stuff on windows 17:17:24 runs much slower 17:17:31 and much more complicated 17:17:45 having to modigy environment variables and stuff... 17:17:50 *modify 17:20:01 mingw isn't slow 17:20:02 cygwin is 17:20:09 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:10 it's almost as native 17:20:18 i find mit-scheme to be awkward and almost a different language. a lot of features are from r4rs....] 17:20:21 also cygwin got faster too recently 17:20:43 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:20:59 i want scheme on windows with srfi-1 is that so complicated? 17:21:45 teurastaja, racket r5rs? 17:21:48 Um, a lot of the R5RS is from the R4RS. 17:22:19 who still uses fluid-let or sc-macro-whatever? 17:22:43 racket seems like an option 17:22:44 Neither of those is from the R4RS... 17:23:14 rudybot: (define (find-primes . ps2) 17:23:15 teurastaja: i only have PS3 and wii 17:23:15 (let* ([ps1 (null? ps2)] 17:23:17 [ps2 (if ps1 (list 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19) (car ps2))] 17:23:18 [a (if ps1 20 (+ (* (quotient (last ps2) 10) 10) 10))] 17:23:20 [x (/ a 2)]) 17:23:21 (receive (ps1 ps2) (span (lambda (y) (> x y)) ps2) 17:23:23 (let f ([ps1 ps1] [ps2 ps2]) 17:23:24 (let* ([qs (map (lambda (x) (+ a x)) (list 1 3 7 9))] 17:23:26 [a (+ a 10)] [x (/ a 2)]) 17:23:27 (receive (ls1 ls2) (span (lambda (y) (> x y)) ps2) 17:23:29 (f a (append ps1 ls1) 17:23:30 (append ls2 17:23:31 OH PLEASE GOD HELP ME 17:23:32 (filter 17:23:33 (lambda (x) 17:23:35 (any (lambda (y) (zero? (modulo x y))) ps1)) 17:23:36 qs))))))))) 17:23:47 rudybot: eval (define (find-primes . ps2) 17:23:49 teurastaja: your sandbox is ready 17:23:49 teurastaja: error: #:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 17:23:49 (let* ([ps1 (null? ps2)] 17:23:51 [ps2 (if ps1 (list 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19) (car ps2))] 17:23:52 [a (if ps1 20 (+ (* (quotient (last ps2) 10) 10) 10))] 17:23:54 [x (/ a 2)]) 17:23:55 (receive (ps1 ps2) (span (lambda (y) (> x y)) ps2) 17:23:57 (let f ([ps1 ps1] [ps2 ps2]) 17:23:58 (let* ([qs (map (lambda (x) (+ a x)) (list 1 3 7 9))] 17:24:01 [a (+ a 10)] [x (/ a 2)]) 17:24:01 (receive (ls1 ls2) (span (lambda (y) (> x y)) ps2) 17:24:03 (f a (append ps1 ls1) 17:24:04 (append ls2 17:24:06 teurastaja, rudybot doesn't work that way. 17:24:06 (filter 17:24:07 (lambda (x) 17:24:09 (any (lambda (y) (zero? (modulo x y))) ps1)) 17:24:10 qs))))))))) 17:24:19 anybody has comments on my code? 17:24:31 Yes: use lisppaste. 17:24:35 rudybot is a gamer apparently 17:25:03 teurastaja, busy, but used euler sieve 17:25:06 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:26:40 http://paste.lisp.org/+2SGO. 17:26:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 17:27:39 i shadow variables a lot 17:29:00 i will embed displays but for now its just the core with a few optimizations 17:29:12 never ran it 17:30:16 isemenov [~isemenov@95.79.120.147] has joined #scheme 17:30:18 obviously you need the receive macro and srfi-1 17:30:22 hello guys 17:30:32 I'm using gnu scheme with guile 17:30:51 can I access an arbitrary vector element, using a variable as the index? 17:31:13 currently I'm getting an error "expecting exact integer": 17:31:52 is this one more sily limitation aimed at showing off? or are variable (non-constant) vector indices allowed in scheme? 17:31:55 isemenov: therefore you need a map, a hashmap for example 17:32:10 keenbug: I can't accessan arbotrary element of a vector?? 17:32:21 isemenov: use association lists 17:32:23 a vector is just a bunch of values which are accessed by index 17:32:24 well, glad I have to do only 2 tasks in this language. 17:32:26 Whisky tango foxtrot? 17:32:37 teurastaja: why association? 17:32:41 therer is no asociation 17:32:47 there is a list of imdexed items 17:33:00 isemenov: see assoc 17:33:02 isemenov, ignore those clowns. Can you say (1) exactly what you typed, (2) exactly what you saw, and (3) exactly what you expected to see? 17:33:05 all the other langs can do that.. 17:33:14 Riastradh: I have a vector 17:33:15 im a clown? 17:33:18 rudybot: (let ((i 3) (v '#(a b c d e f g))) (vector-ref v i)) 17:33:19 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 17:33:19 Riastradh: ; Value: d 17:33:43 initialized to n elements of #t 17:33:46 then I do 17:33:58 if (vector-ref start numbers 17:34:05 ey, trying to help and be named a clown seems to be a little unappropriate to me :( 17:34:06 where start is a variable and numbers is the vector 17:34:20 then I get the aforementioned error.. 17:34:21 isemenov: perhaps the index you are using is an inexact number? how is `start` computed? 17:34:32 you've just given the arguments in the wrong order 17:34:36 isemenov, VECTOR-REF takes the vector first and then the index. 17:34:39 aha/ 17:34:44 Riastradh: oh.. really? 17:34:52 wow. you have saved my day guys 17:34:55 thank you a lot 17:35:05 keenbug, sorry, the first two answers were so far off the mark I thought they were jokes. 17:35:17 indeed. 17:35:24 Riastradh: must've misunderstood him 17:35:32 well, I must b e a bit tired already, so missing out info from the manual 17:35:47 -!- realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-wlfyhggdtvaiccwx] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:35:57 *qu1j0t3* wonders if the error msg is at fault 17:36:03 well, in this regard I can notice that scheme is at least better than erlang. 17:36:19 Better than Erlang? 17:36:47 Riastradh: long time no etc 17:36:58 Hi, offby1. 17:37:04 qu1j0t3: hm, you probably could always on errors check if the arguments may be in the wrong order, but this seems to be too much work 17:37:38 Riastradh: yeah, indeed. scheme has modifyable variables. 17:37:42 isemenov: the index you want to use for the vector is an integer, yes? 17:37:47 and a built-in vector. 17:37:51 mark_weaver: yes, sure 17:38:01 mark_weaver: the advice above seems to have fixed the issue 17:38:01 isemenov, frankly I think mutable variables are a bug in the design of Scheme... 17:38:18 isemenov: okay, then the only problem is that it's inexact. you can do (vector-ref v (inexact->exact i)) 17:39:01 mark_weaver: he just gave the arguments in the wrong order, the index first and then the vector 17:39:06 mark_weaver: I'm not yet familiar with the "exact number" concept, but thank yo for the hint 17:39:07 ah 17:39:09 Mutable data structures are another matter, and it's worth pondering the consequences of having or omitting them, particularly in Erlang. 17:39:14 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #scheme 17:39:17 Riastradh: oh noes. well, as I've already said, it's the last task for me in scheme. 17:39:28 (let ([day #f]) (define (save-my-day) (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) (set! day k))))) 17:39:30 then Unis love it.. 17:39:32 *the 17:39:33 Mutable data structures are (one) reason I like Scheme over many of the other functional languages 17:39:40 They make certain algorithms a -lot- easier to write 17:39:58 yes, if there was proper iteration, it would be even better. 17:40:11 but you CAN iterate 17:40:19 but well, this is probably done in order to distinguish the language from C. 17:40:21 Riastradh: I'd like to see just a single mutable 'cell' type, and everything else immutable. 17:40:32 -!- eni [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:40:38 you "iterate" by recurring. you can simulate it 17:40:40 it's just a matter of style, programming functionally is just a completely different concept 17:40:42 isemenov, you can have whatever iteration constructs you want in Scheme. You're not limited to writing recursive procedures by hand. See, e.g., . 17:41:05 so it's just like learning programming again if you switch from imperative to functional style 17:41:09 isemenov, this is very much unlike C, where the set of iteration constructs is fixed for you: either labels and goto, or while, or do/while, or for. 17:41:30 scheme is not too bad to learn compared to haskell 17:41:48 well, this is nice, but then again, this language is for fun, not productivity 17:42:11 you can't come and just itereate without setting up additional libraries / code 17:42:15 *iterate 17:42:29 isemenov: you can still do systems programming with scheme 17:42:52 keenbug: My usual example is: implement "N choose K". E.g. I give you a list/array/vector/whatever of N elements, and you have to randomly pick K, without replacement, from that (where K <= N). I can trivially implement that in any procedural/imperative language with mutable state in O(k) time. 17:43:00 isemenov: check the do construct 17:43:01 teurastaja: well, maybe, but I guess C++ is sometimes faster. then again, Scheme doesn't have the OO design problems.. 17:43:14 keenbug: However, I have yet to see any implementation in e.g. Haskell which lacks mutable state, any faster than O(k log k) 17:43:16 teurastaja: will do, in a month ;) 17:43:21 isemenov: you would say the same about tail recursion or similar as a scheme programmer using an imperative language 17:43:38 isemenov: scheme can do OO 17:43:41 isemenov, everything you might express in C with `for' you can express equally well in Scheme with DO. 17:43:50 oj, nice to know 17:44:11 teurastaja: Scheme sure does have OO, but still the statement that "Scheme doesn't have the OO design problems [of C++]" remains true ;) 17:45:25 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:47:02 example: (let ([vec (make-vector 9)]) (do ([i 0 (+ i 1)]) ((= i 9) vec) (vector-set! vec i i))) 17:47:24 LeoNerd: you mean so that the Kth element will be removed from the list? 17:47:38 realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-edwflecxemxlihqv] has joined #scheme 17:47:40 by the way "[" is same as "(" 17:47:56 just beautifies it 17:48:31 rudybot: eval (let ([vec (make-vector 9)]) (do ([i 0 (+ i 1)]) ((= i 9) vec) (vector-set! vec i i))) 17:48:32 teurastaja: ; Value: #(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 17:48:33 keenbug: That's the usual way to implement it yes. E.g. randomly select the K'th element, then move the end item of the population down to replace it (O(1) operation). Repeat k times. 17:48:37 it's true enough that Riastradh did an excellent job of helping isemenov, and the rest of us quickly jumped to the wrong conclusions and gave him misleading advice. I'd say that makes us clowns :( 17:48:49 keenbug: But doing that requires an O(1) array mutation operation. 17:49:38 well, it seems to me that these functional languages exist just to let the academic guys discuss something.. 17:49:59 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3BBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:06 whereas the people who want to get the job done, not brag about less lines of code or smart concepts, just use c++ and java. 17:50:13 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3BBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:22 that said, it's nice to stretch your brain sometines. 17:50:25 isemenov: no, they exist for the evolution of most languages today 17:50:28 Well in Scheme we can still use (vector-set!) 17:50:37 isemenov: you might want to take a look at http://fpcomplete.com/the-downfall-of-imperative-programming/ written by a major C++ programmer (who wrote a book about C++ and helped design D) 17:50:41 So we can still manage O(k) time in Scheme 17:51:22 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.205] has joined #scheme 17:51:33 mark_weaver: well, I can imagine something like the "unsafe" construct in C#, but vice versa 17:51:34 isemenov: in short, the future will bring increasingly large number of cores where imperative programming becomes impractical and hopelessly inefficient. 17:51:52 Nonsense 17:51:57 from wiki: Influenced Clojure, Common Lisp, Dylan, EuLisp, Haskell, Hop, JavaScript, Kernel, Lua, R, Racket, Ruby 17:51:57 that is, a "functional" tag for code with immutable daa and such 17:52:05 I don't see any reason why imperative languages cope any worse on multicore than functional ones do 17:52:21 E.g. Take a look at CSP and Go 17:52:25 but most of the code will remain human-readable and codable 17:52:25 in practice, this list is minimal 17:52:28 isemenov, if you want to prove a property of a program, it's easier if it doesn't matter at what time of day you're interested in the property. But for imperative languages the time of day matters. 17:52:40 Imperative language, mutable state; trivially easy distribution over many cores of concurrency 17:53:01 Riastradh: not sure if I folow you.. 17:53:04 *follow 17:53:20 haskell is sometimes faster than C code, depending on the programmer 17:53:25 if you mean tiredness, then functional is a lot more head-bang that imperative 17:53:48 Imperative languages just fit human minds better 17:53:51 ghc was written using C-- 17:54:03 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:54:04 isemenov: has anyone noticed that some recent developments from the linux kernel community (a bastion of imperative programming for sure) are purely functional in nature? git is a purely-functional database. btrfs is a purely-functional filesystem. RCU (read-copy-update) basically has to do with making more data structures in the kernel immutable. 17:54:07 Humans are much more used to interacting with a stateful world. State exists, and people perform actions to mutate that state. 17:54:27 turbofail [~user@38.99.37.210] has joined #scheme 17:54:50 Hell.. A Turing machine is nothing if not stateful. :) The very notion of a computer is all about mutable stored state. 17:54:51 btrfs uses NO state?? 17:54:53 isemenov, a fragment of an imperative program is time-dependent. I don't want to go into a detailed explanation of what that means or what consequences it has for reasoning about programs -- I just thought I'd mention it as something to think about when you're trying to understand a program, or understand the rationale for the design of a programming language. 17:55:08 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: antithesis] 17:55:10 teurastaja: read up on it.. 17:55:19 lambda power! 17:55:37 If you take away that mutable stored state you effectively remove what it means to be a computer 17:55:43 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:18 isemenov, whether you choose to use a functional language or not, consider what the consequences the design decision has. It may help you even to write C++ programs that are easier to understand, to reason about, to prove properties of, and to adapt. 17:56:22 Riastradh: well, again, this is academic 17:56:34 LeoNerd: how much do you know about modern multicore cache architecture? 17:56:39 Quite a lot 17:56:47 I'm a scaleability engineer at Google :) 17:56:49 something to think about in your free time 17:56:57 Never once did I say anything about /shared/ mutable state 17:56:58 Riastradh: but I will read up on it 17:57:01 isemenov, no, it's not academic. 17:57:06 thank you for the hint 17:57:10 Reasoning about programs is not merely an academic endeavour. 17:57:50 LeoNerd: fair enough, I've been talking about shared mutable state. mutable state private to a single core is no problem from an efficiency standpoint. 17:58:01 Ahhh... Yes; subtly different situations 17:58:11 Go and Perl, for example, are shared-nothing by default. I like this model 17:58:25 algorithms are made from thoughts. they shape the program implementation-independantly. they should be studied 17:58:28 Keep your mutable state private, and share state by communicating about it 17:59:10 Shared mutable state is annoy for several reasons.. Cache coherency will eat your performance, thread/data races will cause bugs when you least expect it,... 17:59:25 scheme makes everything possible from almost nothing 18:00:07 teurastaja: well, if I can quickly implement an algo to test it, without fighting for the simplest stuff like adding an element to a list or modifiying a variable, that does matter, too 18:00:32 you dont need to modify vars 18:00:32 I better spend time studying algorithms and hardware 18:00:36 how;s that? 18:00:42 why are they called vars? 18:00:47 are you trolling? 18:00:51 no 18:00:55 of course not 18:00:58 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:01:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:10 vars as symbols bound to values 18:01:10 it's a language you're obviously unfamiliar with. none of what you said is very hard 18:01:16 isemenov, variables do not necessarily have fixed values. That doesn't mean they are functions of time. 18:01:22 I'm just trying to undertand why people tand to create obstacles out of the air.. 18:01:32 well, maybe 18:01:45 isemenov: it's mainly a matter of what you're used to, and admittedly Lisp/Scheme are different from the syntaxes that most programmers have learned. 18:01:47 isemenov, if you approach them with an attitude of `creating obstacles out of thin air' you're unlikely to get very far learning anything. 18:02:06 I dunno, I could go to ##java and complain about how hard it is to write macros in it. obstacles out of air... 18:02:19 well, this is why C++ rules ;) 18:02:30 most possibilties, most responsibilities. 18:02:35 ditto with C++. you call those macros? 18:02:39 of course thats debatable 18:02:55 c++ rules? lol 18:02:57 well stroustroup calls them so 18:03:02 *St 18:03:26 c++ is a mess 18:03:35 Hah. C++ does not have macros. 18:03:39 just because a language doesn't work the way another language you're used to does does not make it bad 18:04:01 yeah it does. #define syntax-rules 18:04:05 it just doesnt work the way you intend to in the first way 18:04:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has joined #scheme 18:04:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.93] has quit [Changing host] 18:04:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:04:38 you get weird bugs 18:05:07 Heh.. a token replacement template system is not a macro system 18:05:08 all because of hardware exceptions 18:05:25 -!- kreol[Ukr] [~kreol@85.198.168.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:41 segmentation fault:) 18:05:44 i dont use macros anyway (most of the time) 18:06:59 segfault is fine if you intend to overflow buffers 18:07:21 I've seen some (C) examples of intentionally causing segfaults 18:07:47 There's one what sets up its own SIGSEGV handler, then ensures it allocates every struct to its own page. By playing mmap() trickery it can ensure that reads/writes of that memory cause segfaulst 18:07:58 ive intentionally caused some for open source tests 18:08:13 It then implements special code in the segfault handler to perform some computation or whatever, remaps the page, then restarts the faulting instruction. 18:08:28 The upshot is you get something similar to GET/SET magic in Perl, or whatever 18:08:37 ok. I've finished my task now, and that puts me in a good mood. I promise I'll read up on scheme, but later - the impressions are too vivid for me at the moment. 18:08:39 .oO( I happen not to know if Scheme has a similar idea ) 18:08:41 leonerd: buffer overflows are awesome 18:08:46 It's not an overflow 18:08:58 It's a memory fault due to accessing an unmapped page 18:09:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:24 your example 18:09:26 I however understand that one needs to expand their knwledge and approach 18:09:27 not mine 18:10:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130203 18:10:47 racket, geiser. any idea, besides not to use a nightly? 18:13:24 don't redefine constants? :) 18:13:33 -!- teurastaja [~chatzilla@modemcable168.103-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [SeaMonkey 2.10.1/20120615050225]] 18:16:28 lewis1711, i'm not 18:18:07 confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 18:23:27 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 18:24:45 kudkudyak [~user@94.72.157.199] has joined #scheme 18:25:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.76.10] has joined #scheme 18:25:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.76.10] has quit [Changing host] 18:25:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:37:09 -!- getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:37:41 -!- hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:38:07 getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 18:38:54 hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 18:41:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:43:05 tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.132.208] has joined #scheme 18:43:23 bro_grammer [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 18:44:04 random_malice [~ian@129.7.255.112] has joined #scheme 18:44:37 -!- hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:37 -!- getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:46:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-239.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:47:05 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Quit: Hi SIGINT, how'ya doin'?] 18:48:56 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:49:44 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 18:52:12 -!- realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-edwflecxemxlihqv] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:52:19 -!- random_malice [~ian@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:40 -!- bro_grammer [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:14 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:57:39 huh... re message passing concurrency, i was reading some interesting stuff a few nights ago about intel making some multicore chips that essentially used message passing at the hardware level 18:59:07 this is apparently the most sane way to get around the memory bandwidth bottleneck 18:59:22 turbofail: Inmos transputer? 18:59:29 turbofail: CSP in hardware 18:59:46 this was more recent 18:59:57 yes 19:00:00 just sayin 19:03:54 Yup.. CSP is good 19:04:20 i'm curious about how such an architecture would work for something like raytracing, in which every thread has to have random access to the same acceleration structure 19:04:43 What acceleration structure? 19:04:53 -!- weirdo [sthalik@kronstadt.misaki.pl] has left #scheme 19:04:55 it's usually some sort of spatial partitioning tree 19:04:56 Ray tracing is one of those wonderfuly simple "embarrasingly parallel" problems 19:05:19 The colour of each pixel in the final output is a (read-only) function only of the scene, not the other pixels 19:05:30 There is no interraction between pixels. It's trivially simple to render concurrently 19:05:42 sure, but the scene data itself has to be available to everyone 19:05:58 Yes.. and? 19:06:04 Create readonly copies of it everywhere 19:06:40 Shared readonly access to constant data is still cheap 19:06:47 It's only shared + mutable where it gets annoying 19:06:49 yeah... i was just thinking the distribution of those copies could take a while, which could be a problem for real-time ray tracing 19:07:36 turbofail: speaking of which, this is a LOVELY demo. http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-tracing/ 19:07:42 i've seen that demo 19:07:48 turbofail: this is pretty much real time on my PC or Mac Pro 19:07:51 that demo was what made me start researching ray tracing more thoroughly 19:08:09 *qu1j0t3* wrote ray tracers in the 80s, ran them on Mac68K and Transputers (but only two :() 19:08:27 anyway looks like it's lunch time 19:08:29 bbl 19:08:41 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:16:32 ijp [~user@host86-174-103-214.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:21:17 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:21:26 Could anybody tell me why the msg box in this program prints "EAE" and not "NONE" ? http://www.pastie.org/4128041 19:21:42 I set the symbol SYM to blah 19:21:53 phao: you might have the wrong channel 19:21:58 ops 19:22:00 I am hehe 19:22:01 sorry 19:22:03 also, i recommend stackoverflow 19:26:49 realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nvfxaglepyppijsh] has joined #scheme 19:27:16 turbofail: you could split up the final render in some regions and then just transmit the objects which (could) affect that region i think 19:32:45 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:33:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:39:42 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61CAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:39:56 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:40:50 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 19:48:18 -!- freakazoid [seanl@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe93:4599] has left #scheme 19:49:26 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 19:52:54 r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.35.245] has joined #scheme 19:55:27 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@121-79-208-160.dsl.sta.inspire.net.nz] has left #scheme 19:56:08 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:31 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:57:52 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has joined #scheme 20:03:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:47 here's a paper about that intel chip i mentioned earlier: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/flame/pubs/FLAWN55.pdf 20:04:10 fantazo_ [~fantazo@91.119.48.229] has joined #scheme 20:06:33 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.121.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:26 turbofail: wow, nice. have you posted this in #erlang ? 20:09:28 -!- mmc2 [~michal@178-85-66-32.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:12 nope... i don't usually frequent #erlang 20:11:43 turbofail: i'll post it there then :) 20:13:16 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:53 heh 20:17:46 choas [~lars@p4FDC5323.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:38 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:12 turbofail: so far they are pretty happy with the shiny thing 20:22:27 excellent 20:22:45 rudybot: there are shiny things now? gimme 20:22:47 ijp: Hah! Gimme me back my 50 MXN! *That* will show 'em! 20:23:23 *turbofail* laughs maniacally 20:25:01 rudybot: go lurk yourself 20:25:03 qu1j0t3: why don't you lurk there for a bit... it's livening up; someone is writing a book. 20:25:16 rudybot: you mean in #mercury? 20:25:17 qu1j0t3: mercury & bleach 20:25:25 rudybot: my favourite cocktail! 20:25:26 qu1j0t3: I've never seen that cocktail waitress before. 20:25:37 rudybot: oh, you're just playing word association football 20:25:39 qu1j0t3: they'be screwed up when they bolted the macos ui assumptions on so random things break in unexpected ways, esp buffer/window association 20:38:12 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71873d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:18 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:41:56 -!- r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.35.245] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 20:52:04 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.157.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:33 -!- fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.115.20.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:18 qu1j0t3: you just figured that out _now_ ?! 20:57:35 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:20 -!- realitygrill [realitygri@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nvfxaglepyppijsh] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:58:29 -!- imphasing is now known as imphasing|home 20:58:51 rudybot: people around here think i am dim 20:58:51 qu1j0t3: group chat made it crash? 21:01:42 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:03 rudybot: how many qu1j0t3's does it take to pass a turing test? 21:04:03 ijp: points his blunderbuss in qu1j0t3's direction 21:06:11 rudybot: aggressive 21:06:13 qu1j0t3: but at least they are more aggressive in devel new features. 21:06:28 qu1j0t3: windmill 21:07:19 *qu1j0t3* tilts 21:07:30 qu1j0t3: pinball 21:08:16 *qu1j0t3* flips 21:08:33 qu1j0t3: burgers 21:08:40 qu1j0t3: pinmill 21:09:04 turbofail: windball 21:09:08 (rudybot 1, #scheme 0) 21:10:15 -!- tejaswidp [~tejaswidp@117.192.132.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:14:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:10 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:17:21 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.104.77] has joined #scheme 21:21:12 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:25:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-37.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:29:36 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:29:38 -!- Myk267 [~myk@71.149.255.106] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 21:30:11 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:49 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:34 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:15 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:46 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:08 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:00 -!- graspee [~graspee@5ada8652.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:46:34 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:47:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 21:48:13 -!- noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:26 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 21:48:36 noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 21:53:44 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 21:55:47 mejja [~user@c-b1b0e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:57:45 rudybot: seen sarhabot? 21:57:46 mejja: No sign of sarhabot? 21:58:38 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-37.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:01 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:19 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:05:01 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:56 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:58 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 22:15:44 -!- isemenov [~isemenov@95.79.120.147] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:19:26 -!- mejja [~user@c-b1b0e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 22:24:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:24:54 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:26:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:28:08 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:59 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #scheme 22:36:31 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:49 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:30 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-248-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:41:46 mejja: sarahbot's been gone a long time 22:42:15 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 22:43:30 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:33 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 22:45:13 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:00 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD61CAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:48:42 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:52 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: antithesis] 22:51:49 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:12 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC5323.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:56:44 bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:33 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:33 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:01:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 23:01:49 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-173-095-170-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:02:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:10 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 23:09:48 _long_ long long. 23:10:14 Why, her disappearance predates rudybot's "seen" database! (Or at least, it predates the last time I accidentally nuked it) 23:12:07 `\ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 23:12:59 -!- `\ is now known as Aethaeryn 23:13:16 whoops, I probably should use a name that makes me look like a human, not a spambot, when I join large channels. 23:13:21 Sorry, there was a joke going on somewhere else. 23:14:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:46 jcowan: how goes r7rs-drafts? 23:20:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:21:34 Is http://www.r6rs.org/ the best place to start when I'm trying to write a Scheme? 23:22:18 It says on wikipedia[1] that Scheme is very simple and easy to implement (relatively speaking); [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R6RS#Minimalism 23:24:01 adu: We'll probably issue draft 7 early in July, as the public comment period closes at the end of June. 23:24:22 Aethaeryn: it's not hard to implement an incomplete proto-scheme-like language 23:24:50 implementing the full scheme standard is more difficult, though still way easier than most other languages 23:24:54 jcowan: does it still have that half assed exception system? 23:25:21 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3BBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:25:47 The exception system is full-assed, in fact R6RS-compatible. What it doesn't have is a fixed condition system that all the standard procedures use. 23:26:24 Aethaeryn: it is, I made a scheme earlier this year 23:26:42 so that's a yes 23:27:22 Aethaeryn: I personally think the best way to learn scheme is by reading SICP 23:27:23 whatever, it's not like the situation is appreciably worse than is now 23:27:52 oh, and I made a website for droscheme yesterday 23:27:53 http://andydude.github.com/droscheme/ 23:28:30 ijp: Exactly. One of the barriers to R6RS adoption seemed to be the condition system, as it requires ripping out what you've already got. 23:28:35 adu: Oh, good. 23:29:15 Aethaeryn: If you want to write a Scheme, I'd go for R5RS or draft R7RS-small. Implementing a full R6RS is a heavy-duty undertaking. 23:29:21 Of course it depends on your goals. 23:29:44 jcowan: yes, scheme implementors hate being told what to do, this is well known 23:29:44 -!- noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:04 noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 23:30:11 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:11 Especially when they already have a perfectly good exception system. 23:30:15 s/exception/condition 23:30:30 the point of the r6rs was supposed to be that implementers took a back seat and put the community first for a change 23:31:14 I didn't find that attitude conspicuous in going through the r6rs-editors archive 23:31:24 I'm working on rrrs-authors now, trying to find stuff we might have missed. 23:31:27 -!- b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:39 Interesting how people were talking about modules 'n macros as long ago as R2RS. 23:31:44 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 23:32:15 jcowan: fair enough, I may be generalising from pre-r6rs mails 23:32:43 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SixRejection <-- reasons people didn't like R6RS, and what R7RS does about it 23:33:32 jcowan: Is r7rs-small trivially expandable into r7rs later if I accidentally make a popular language? 23:33:41 you know my opinion of r7rs-large 23:33:42 Well, trivial as in, just adding 23:33:52 We don't know yet. 23:33:54 Probably yes. 23:34:13 Oh, "as in just adding", definitely. R7RS-small will be a proper subset of R7RS-large. 23:34:14 just a 2009 draft. Oh, wow, committees move quickly 23:34:23 ijp: I forget. 23:34:26 "R7RS has given very high priority to backwards compatibility" <- justify 23:34:41 how is the r7rs approach to backwards compatibility different from r6rs? 23:34:49 "official sanction of square brackets" hahaha 23:34:51 you are still required to modify every scheme file 23:34:59 or use an include 23:35:06 oh, good! They're learning from Python 3! :-P 23:35:21 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:35:29 poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has joined #scheme 23:35:32 Every new major version of a language should be like Python 3 and Perl 6 and (apparently) r7rs-large :-P 23:35:53 "Immutable pairs may make optimization easier, but do not fit at all with the practice and spirit of Lisp. " 23:36:03 r6rs does not have immutable pairs, and the latter is bullshit 23:36:14 ijp: Not so. You are not required to use modules. 23:36:20 Aethaeryn: What 2009 draft? 23:36:47 Aethaeryn: I'm currently falling in love with Perl6, I just wish it had an sexpr syntax 23:37:11 http://scheme-reports.org/ 23:37:17 Am I on the wrong site? 23:37:32 jcowan: ? you are not required to import the base library in scripts? 23:37:35 I got there from http://www.r7rs.org/ which I got by changing http://www.r6rs.org/ in the URL bar 23:38:10 r7rs.org is under construction 23:38:17 because r7rs is under construction 23:38:20 adu: I like the mixed type system, with optional static types, in Perl 6. As in, I like the one paragraph Wikipedia has on it. I haven't tried it. 23:38:33 Something not being in Fedora's repositories makes me *way* less likely to try it 23:38:54 he I/O system was totally rewritten for no reason <- r6rs explicitly provides a compatible io library 23:39:08 All but fundamental I/O primitives should be put in a library: <- they are 23:39:15 dude, if it ain't a SIGNED EXE imma not touchin it 23:39:20 have thesee people read the r6rs? 23:39:29 scratch that,they are schemers, of course they haven't 23:41:59 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:42:32 The R6RS simple I/O library provides exactly what R5RS provides, so it is backward compatible in the literal sense. But if you want one iota more, you need to modify all calls. 23:42:57 ijp: I certainly have read the R6RS many times. I'm reading it again now, looking for things I missed. 23:43:19 jcowan: you are the exception, not the rule, even amongst the people working on r7rs 23:43:29 You are required to import the base library in main programs, but scripts are not necessarily main programs. At the REPL, you don't have to import the base library, and you may not have to import any library. 23:44:49 I'm curious, when wouldn't a script be considered a main program? 23:45:17 If a script is implemented by the REPL engine. Hopefully there will be some language in draft 7 clarifying this. 23:45:28 Of course, you can have implementations without REPLs. 23:45:57 acarrico [~acarrico@pppoe-68-142-63-124.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:44 Is this the right document? http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-6.pdf 23:46:48 Yes. 23:46:58 the linker suggestion of chris hansons is interesting, but as yet, I know of no one that actually does that 23:47:23 ijp: URL? 23:47:52 Oh, you mean in SixRejection? 23:47:55 jcowan: it was one of the responses to the r6rs, and is covered in that sixrejection link 23:48:10 Yes, I just figured that out. 23:48:26 It's interesting that 'load' was a sore point, since it has no sane interaction wigh macros 23:49:07 -!- wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:50:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.177] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 23:51:00 IMHO load should be used only at run time, never at the REPL, and should load only procedures into the interaction-environment. 23:51:53 actually, I can think of one sane interaction -- macros are local only to the file loaded 23:53:01 That's one advantage of only having syntax-rules, you don't have to worry about phasing nightmares. 23:53:33 "The effort required to implement a standard-compliant Scheme becomes much larger than before. This will discourage future implementers, endangering the diversity that is one of Scheme's present strengths. " <- that one is an advantage, not a disadvantage 23:53:38 I am going to push for implicit phasing, given that R6RS explicit phasing does nothing useful (it disallows defining identifiers differently at different phases). 23:53:58 R6RS doesn't mandate explicit phasing does it? 23:54:15 It just mandates phasing. 23:54:17 kinda, kinda not 23:54:26 It allows implementations to either ignore or insist on explicit phasing. 23:54:38 Also, explicit phasing means you don't have the unpredictability of implicit phasing. 23:54:51 So if you want portable code, you have to mark it up with explicit phases even if your implementation ignores them. 23:55:18 In Racket, you have fully separated phasing: an identifier can mean different things in different phases. But R6RS doesn't allow that. 23:55:18 -!- poindont` [~user@cloudbovina.bovinasancta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:55:41 So given that fully explicit phasing is probably off the table (I am speaking as a committee member, not as chair here), 23:55:59 explicit phasing doesn't buy you very much: you might as well let the implementation figure out the phases. 23:56:11 I am not unbiased, however, since I don't like low-level macros at all. 23:58:37 I'm not sure what you mean by "low-level" macro here.