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02:56:20 By `gnu scheme', do you mean Guile or MIT/GNU Scheme? 02:56:21 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:57:01 mit/gnu scheme 02:57:09 What trouble are you having? 02:57:31 (Usually it's abbreviated `MIT Scheme'.) 02:57:58 tupi [~david@189.67.53.5] has joined #scheme 02:58:14 I'm getting undefined reference to __dlclose 02:59:21 64bit 02:59:46 FareWell [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 03:01:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:06:39 roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has joined #scheme 03:09:09 confab [~confab@32.157.44.130] has joined #scheme 03:16:52 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 03:18:31 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:23:51 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:29:04 albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has joined #scheme 03:29:57 -!- tupi [~david@189.67.53.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:55 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:41:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 03:46:30 -!- gejr [~Geir@unaffiliated/gejr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:46:55 gejr [~Geir@40.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 03:46:56 -!- gejr [~Geir@40.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:56 gejr [~Geir@unaffiliated/gejr] has joined #scheme 03:47:28 -!- tojo_ [ae006e18@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.0.110.24] has left #scheme 03:59:08 -!- confab [~confab@32.157.44.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:40 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-166.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:35 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@97-83-152-18.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:50 jrslepak [~jrslepak@97-83-152-18.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:08:47 lcc [d036048e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.142] has joined #scheme 04:09:50 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:13:33 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:15:17 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:16:07 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #scheme 04:26:37 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:30:54 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:31:49 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-166.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:34:27 hi 04:34:48 I'm looking for a good design for generic container libraries 04:45:20 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:45:24 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:47:06 -!- lcc [d036048e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:58:37 rubber-lined stainless steel. Prevents leaks, and won't tarnish. 04:58:53 Unless you're using the container for something acid, in which case glass is better 04:59:41 hehe 05:01:19 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 05:02:03 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:16 -!- chu_ is now known as chu 05:03:06 offby1, what about double-walled borosilicate glass? 05:03:55 Good thermal insulation plus the benefit of transparency! Except for photosensitive contents, I guess... though little knitted or crocheted container cozies can mitigate that issue. 05:05:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:06:26 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:07:05 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #scheme 05:07:05 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 05:07:05 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #scheme 05:11:10 FareWell: seriously, I don't think I've ever come across anything you'd call a "container library" in scheme. 05:11:49 racket has something called a "dict", which is really just a collection of functions that work uniformly (more or less) on vectors, hash tables, alists, and maybe something else 05:12:27 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:13:26 rudybot: (dict-ref '((0 . zerow) (1 . one)) 1) 05:13:28 *offby1: your typed/racket sandbox is ready 05:13:28 *offby1: error: Type Checker: Internal Typed Racket Error : #(struct:exn:fail:contract car: expects argument of type ; given: #f #) in: here 05:13:33 rudybot: init racket 05:13:33 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 05:13:35 rudybot: (dict-ref '((0 . zerow) (1 . one)) 1) 05:13:35 *offby1: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 05:13:38 *sigh* 05:13:47 worked on my machine :-| 05:18:47 kreol[Ukr] [~kreol@85.198.171.76] has joined #scheme 05:33:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:34:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:42:35 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #scheme 05:43:32 anyone planning on entering the icfp 2012 programming contest? 05:52:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 05:54:01 confab [~confab@32.152.230.151] has joined #scheme 05:55:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.173.90] has joined #scheme 05:55:51 -!- 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[~kunsel@pc1627.vpn-i.uni-kiel.de] has joined #scheme 13:06:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:58 -!- roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:55 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:14:28 mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 13:15:07 ecraven: Yes, I was thinking about doing the ICFP contest this year. 13:15:26 :) what system will you use? 13:15:49 GNU Guile probably 13:16:05 what about you? 13:17:22 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 13:17:45 not sure yet, but if i do, MIT/GNU Scheme is the system i'm most familiar with 13:18:33 I would probably be happy to use MIT/GNU Scheme as well. 13:20:05 I confess that my primary motivation is to promote GNU and Scheme :) 13:21:58 :) i find emacs + swank/slime + MIT/GNU Scheme to work very well as a prototyping environment 13:22:09 unfortunately there's no way to use it at work :-/ 13:24:09 -!- henne_ [~quassel@91-67-165-122-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:24 I wish there was more of a community around MIT/GNU Scheme, like Guile has. 13:26:03 there's Riastradh and mejja in here 13:26:16 and me, but I might not be too much help 13:26:32 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:26:46 I've been working on a web-framework-thing for MIT/GNU Scheme, fun project, but not enough time to actually get things done :( 13:26:59 -!- kunsel [~kunsel@pc1627.vpn-i.uni-kiel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:27:49 -!- b4283` [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:59 It would be nice if it were easier to write code that could work on either of those two platforms. 13:29:16 it seems a shame to be duplicating all of this work. 13:30:04 maybe r7rs will achieve this. i'd really love to see a "module system" for MIT/GNU Scheme at last :-/ 13:30:12 have to run, see you around alter! 13:30:18 s/alter/later/ 13:33:06 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:33:06 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:34:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:44 b4283 [~user@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 13:35:53 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:36:10 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:58 ecraven: okay, ttyl! 13:47:15 -!- corani [~yaaic@87.255.53.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53:38 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 13:55:27 -!- jrslepak 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18:09:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:03 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:14:59 lcc [d03604cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.204] has joined #scheme 18:17:40 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:42 -!- tashbear [~hucktash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:26 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:26:33 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7E95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:49 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 18:30:04 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:35:17 i1126 [~i1126@85.88.17.198] has joined #scheme 18:36:16 -!- lcc [d03604cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:36:59 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:04 wingo [~wingo@89.131.176.233] has joined #scheme 18:41:53 If I wanted to write a C library -- a regular C library, accessible from FFIs in Scheme, Python, Java, etc. -- but instead of writing it in C, I wrote it in Scheme, what scheme implementation would I use? 18:42:01 One person suggested Chicken scheme, another suggested Bigloo 18:42:35 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 18:44:37 -!- hash_table [~quassel@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:44:37 -!- getpwnam [~ian@129.7.255.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:46:36 ssbr_: probably, it's close to impossible 18:47:34 It shouldn't be :( 18:47:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:47:52 it's possible to do it in Python, for example, and Python has way fewer implementations 18:48:06 OTOH Python (and many other languages) suffers from the problem of having a global interpreter state 18:48:20 ugh, CPython (and many other implementations of many other languages) [...] 18:48:38 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:49:57 from a quick search on wikipedia 18:50:09 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #scheme 18:50:15 Racket has a native FFI based heavily on macros that enables importing arbitrary shared libraries dynamically. 18:52:56 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 19:00:32 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 19:00:34 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:07 ssbr_: You could probably do it with Gambit-C fairly easily. 19:01:14 ssbr: how do you deal with programs that use features not supported by a C FFI? GC, continuations, concurrency discipline, etc.? 19:01:55 The manual goes over how to generate a shared library. 19:02:29 FareWell: My purpose is to write a C library. I would avoid parts of Scheme that cannot work with C. 19:02:48 FareWell: but I'd hope that continuations, for example, can be treated as some opaque type by the C programs that access the library. 19:03:01 I haven't done it with Scheme, but I did create a Windows DLL in ocaml that implemented a chess playing plugin. 19:03:46 It's not all that difficult at all, really. 19:04:54 If you wanted to do something very low-overhead and you had plenty of time on your hands, you could try to get Pre-Scheme from Scheme48 to build libraries for you. 19:05:00 ssbr_: Guile 2.0 can do what you want fairly easily, though there is some overhead in the libffi code that bridges the two worlds. 19:05:13 ssbr: as long as you don't hope to capture the continuation past the border between C and Scheme, you should be safe. 19:05:36 ssbr: there are plenty of embeddable Scheme implementations. Guile, TinyScheme, SIOD, etc. 19:05:50 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 19:06:29 ssbr_: If you have some API functions that require low per-call overhead, you can avoid most of the overhead by writing C stubs by hand. 19:07:57 ssbr_: The Scheme<->C interface is one of Guile's strong points, as it has been considered an important consideration in its design from the beginning. 19:14:16 So, the primary issue with embedding Scheme (or anything else) is whether or not the interpreter is global 19:14:30 I'd want someone to be able to use multiple libraries written this way 19:15:05 Like, uh, the usual approach is to have a library with a C function init() and deinit() that initialize/destruct the virtual machine / runtime for Scheme/Haskell/whatever 19:16:35 It'd be bad if calling deinit() on one made the other unusable, or if calling init() for two separate guile/whatever-backed libraries caused bad behavior 19:16:39 *ssbr_* is looking at the Guile docs 19:16:55 ssbr_: Guile requires that it be initialized from within every thread that uses any Scheme code. 19:18:04 ssbr_: it's probably not going to be as transparent as you'd prefer. 19:18:24 Scheme48's prescheme might be closer to what you want. 19:19:04 Maybe, but I'm not sure that'd be any better than writing in C. There was an implication above that it'd be painful 19:19:14 snorble [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:19:21 ssbr_: among other things, the garbage collector (Boehm GC for Guile 2) needs to know the limit of the stack, so that the stack can be scanned. 19:19:54 :( 19:20:12 Doesn't C not at all guarantee any size or any way of querying the size of the stack? 19:20:42 ssbr_: I haven't studied it in depth, but prescheme is definitely better than C. It uses a hindley-milner style type system to enable higher-order procedures, for example, as long as all the types can be inferred at compile type (ala ML or Haskell) 19:21:14 HM types _are_ pretty awesome. 19:21:23 The thing that mostly bothers me is the lack of memory safety, though. 19:22:15 As a non-expert C programmer, I shoot myself in the foot repeatedly. And in C, these mistakes can be very costly, because the error might only be apparent somewhere else sometime else much later with little, or perhaps no identifiable links with the source of the error. :( 19:22:50 Also PreScheme does not appear to be documented well / at all? <_< 19:23:47 ssbr_: regarding portability of determining the stack bounds: yes, it's true that there's no portable way of doing it. Guile's approach is to provide two different initialization methods, one which is portable (scm_with_guile), and another which is more convenient but only works on platforms for which Guile knows how to determine the stack bounds (scm_init_guile). 19:25:31 ssbr_: scm_with_guile takes a function pointer and argument, and calls that function, such that all Scheme code must be run only within that function. 19:25:50 i.e. scm_with_guile must wrap the entire program, effectively. 19:25:56 bleh, that wouldn't work 19:26:49 ssbr_: See "Pre-Scheme: A Scheme Dialect for Systems Programming" by Richard A. Kelsey. 19:27:44 ssbr_: http://mumble.net/~kelsey/papers/prescheme.ps.gz 19:27:50 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.137.254] has joined #scheme 19:32:41 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:33:24 ijp [~user@host109-154-209-221.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:59 -!- imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: YOLO] 19:36:20 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:46:07 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7E95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46:38 -!- henne_ [~quassel@91-67-165-122-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:29 The source code for PreScheme is available as a part of Scheme48, so that may be the best bet. The paper is skimpy on details. 19:50:32 i assume this is the bad meaning of skimpy. 19:51:50 SrPx [b185811b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.133.129.27] has joined #scheme 19:54:16 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD616D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:54:56 PreScheme can be run in the Scheme48 interpreter as well, which you could use for running test cases and whatnot before compiling your library. 19:58:06 ssbr_: i think you're unlikely to be happy trying to use an existing scheme system as a way to write C code 19:58:19 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:59:33 I don't think anyone is happy writing C code anyway :P 20:05:05 :) 20:12:14 keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7E95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:09 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 20:15:47 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:27 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:16:36 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.231] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:16 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.231] has joined #scheme 20:18:32 -!- FareWell [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:23 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:19:52 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:42 -!- keenbug [~daniel@p4FDB7E95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 20:21:21 keenbug_ [~daniel@p4FDB7E95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:41 -!- keenbug_ is now known as keenbug 20:23:50 anothervenue [~anotherve@76.91.162.213] has joined #scheme 20:23:54 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:24:37 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:31:17 *Zuchto* is happy when writing C... just not as productive as he could be 20:31:42 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:29 phao [phao@177.77.139.121] has joined #scheme 20:34:34 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #scheme 20:49:31 -!- phao [phao@177.77.139.121] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 20:53:09 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:19 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:54:44 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:57:10 i actually enjoy using C for simple numerical tasks 20:57:36 but only when i know i won't need to worry about shit like overflows or weird promotion semantics 20:57:48 -!- imphasing is now known as imphasing|home 20:58:06 also when i know i won't need to do any heap allocation 20:58:29 The promotion semantics of C are so terrifying that ocaml's promotion rules no longer bother me at all 20:58:39 (Ocaml's promotion rules: "What's promotion?") 20:59:02 uh, I've typed <: in ocaml so many times it has lost all meaning :( 21:05:26 -!- i1126 [~i1126@85.88.17.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:06:32 ssbr_: :):) 21:11:21 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:11 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:29 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-228-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:19:55 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:17 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-199-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:22 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 21:30:44 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-26-242.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:32:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:33:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:33:59 -!- homie 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