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02:29:45 No, Gavino. 02:30:08 Riastradh: how do? 02:30:24 -!- cataska_ [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:30:54 whats new? 02:31:16 -!- albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:51 chaotic_good: are you bored? 02:31:56 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:59 nop 02:32:02 just home from work 02:32:05 waiting for a girl 02:32:24 on my icewm desktop on freebsd 9 on my desktop quad phenom II 965 02:32:42 chaotic_good: why don't you disconnect from irc while you wait. 02:33:07 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #scheme 02:33:24 uh cuz I like to chat on irc 02:33:28 chaotic_good: and if you ever come online again, stay out of this channel and others like #mysql where you contribute nothing. 02:33:30 why dont u disconnect? 02:33:45 dont ever tell me what to do 02:33:46 ever 02:34:27 *qU1j0t3* laughs 02:35:21 laugh all u want 02:35:22 :) 02:35:26 friggin nazi 02:35:47 but hey that nazi tude comes natural from commies/socialists 02:35:48 :) 02:35:50 like u 02:36:06 Take it outside, Gavino. 02:36:57 -!- chaotic_good is now known as gavino_himself 02:37:13 Riastradh: is this guy not at fault? only me? 02:38:18 qU1j0t3 has contributed to the channel. 02:41:54 albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has joined #scheme 02:41:59 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:31 meaning what? 02:42:35 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:42:59 I was going to ask about awful vs sunet vs racket and who might have tried them. 02:43:02 was curious 02:44:05 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-182.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:44:06 sigh 02:44:12 -!- gavino_himself [~g@pool-173-60-202-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 02:48:06 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.189] has joined #scheme 02:50:25 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:54:02 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 02:56:53 -!- rins [~aaron@c-66-31-29-144.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:57:33 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #scheme 02:58:36 rins [~aaron@c-66-31-29-144.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:58:38 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:08 jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:37 -!- woonie [~woonie@124.109.163.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:03:50 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:07:08 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:25 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-52-141-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:13:27 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.189] has joined #scheme 03:16:10 startingsicp [~startings@ip72-208-143-82.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:33 hey all 03:16:58 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-156-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:17:06 Hi 03:17:11 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:11 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:12 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:17:25 -!- startingsicp [~startings@ip72-208-143-82.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:25 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:19:13 startingsicp [~startings@ip72-208-143-82.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-189.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:24:13 hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:23 getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:01 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:27:37 jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:26 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:30:29 startingsicp: I saw that you asked recently about 'eval-buffer' in Emacs not doing what you expected. 'eval-buffer' evaluates the buffer using the emacs lisp interpreter, _not_ using scheme. 03:30:58 oops. 03:33:14 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:35:04 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-182.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:35:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:54:03 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-4-182.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:55:34 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 03:58:45 leppie [~lolcow@196.215.142.189] has joined #scheme 04:03:48 -!- bfgun is now known as bfig 04:06:10 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-hknpsbuhnzkqduwq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:09:37 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:27 -!- hash_table [~quassel@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:23 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-198-83.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:26:08 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:30 -!- getpwnam [~ian@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:31:46 lcc [~user@75-173-87-47.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:07 is a scheme interpreter implemented in hw an os? 04:36:12 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@cable-77-221-28-174.dynamic.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:36:37 -!- rins [~aaron@c-66-31-29-144.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:39:18 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:40:59 lcc: You could argue that it is. 04:41:01 -!- foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 04:41:07 foof [~user@li126-140.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 04:41:18 that is so cool to me 04:41:22 lcc: this paper argues such a point http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/icfp99-ffkf.pdf 04:41:42 (and at one point the old PLT Scheme could boot on the HW) 04:42:33 There've also been functional programming languages implemented at the HW level. The Reduceron is a recent example (runs Haskell). 04:42:57 yes. 04:43:04 There was also the Scheme chip at MIT in the 80s(?) 04:43:15 there's a virtualisation platform that supports a haskell runtime 04:43:31 lcc: I like your enthusiasm 04:43:51 and let's not forget Smalltalk-80... 04:43:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:43:59 asumu: is that based on House? 04:44:00 and Genera... 04:44:25 yummm, lisp machines 04:44:26 adu: The Reduceron? No, it's an FPGA which natively runs some core of Haskell. 04:44:35 asumu: sweet 04:45:19 this is what i am thinking of http://halvm.org/wiki/ 04:49:35 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:53:45 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:46 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:59:47 drrckln [~drrckln@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:00:51 -!- drrckln [~drrckln@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@ool-18ba55c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:01 RITRedbeard [~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:18 jasox_ [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #scheme 05:05:11 -!- jasox_ is now known as jaso 05:05:32 -!- jaso [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has left #scheme 05:07:22 -!- rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-007-002.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:10:25 attila_lendvai 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-222.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:20:59 -!- i1126 [~i1126@85.88.17.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:29:12 b4283 [~b4283@122-117-157-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 14:29:34 hi there 14:30:05 *homie* winks! 14:30:37 i'm been troubled by some text saying that scheme is lexical scoped 14:31:03 but (let ((a 1)) (let ((a 2)) a)) just keep popping in my head 14:31:19 uh 14:31:37 b4283, what is the problem with this code? 14:31:53 isn't allow two 'a exist at the same time count as dynamic? 14:32:04 you want let* ? 14:32:26 dynamic means many things 14:32:27 =) 14:32:28 Those are -two- scopes 14:32:32 An outer one and an inner one 14:32:36 b4283: no, that's a perfect example of lexical scoping :) 14:32:49 b4283: just remember they are not variables but bindings. 14:32:51 ughhuh 14:32:52 The outer one sets a=1, then the inner one creates a -new- 'a' variable, a=2 14:33:15 LeoNerd: (i think it helps to avoid the word variable) 14:33:16 so there is NO WAY the inner scope get the first value? 14:33:30 No, it's been entirely hidden 14:33:31 no let evals the last form 14:33:31 b4283: yes, it gets the outer scope's value before the inner binding is made. 14:33:34 like defun 14:33:37 err define 14:33:40 b4283, well, not through a anyway 14:33:55 i think he means access it in the right hand side of the binding, not inside the body. 14:33:58 in which case you can. 14:34:10 have been trying some guile lately 14:34:11 b4283: don't forget to study LET* and LETREC and named LET as well :D 14:35:01 i found something like (variable-ref) in the APIs, but i don't know if "variable" guile-specific or scheme? 14:35:31 b4283, but, indirectly, again using lexical scoping, you can get the value of the outer a 14:35:32 http://pastie.org/pastes/4086535/text 14:35:34 my understanding is symbol->variable->value 14:35:41 this should print 2, and then 1 14:36:12 phao: because a has been evaled by the second let, is it 14:36:27 evaled? 14:36:42 evaluated before entering the body 14:36:48 the second let binds f to a closure that captures the outer a 14:36:58 a itself is not evaluated for its value in there 14:37:21 if the outer a gets changed, that change "reflects on f" 14:37:28 lemme show you another thing 14:37:37 please 14:37:41 b4283: dynamic scoping means something very different from what you think. 14:38:03 http://pastie.org/pastes/4086548/text 14:38:06 this prints 2 and then 10 14:38:31 the a in f actually refers to the outer binding of a 14:38:35 (and in g) 14:38:46 (still reading) 14:38:51 indirectly, you can acces the outer a 14:39:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:02 directly, afaik, there is no way. 14:40:27 because of lexical scoping, and because of how closures work, f and g are bound to closures that actually captured the binding of the outer a 14:40:30 b4283: dynamic scoping (as used by emacs lisp for example) means that if the variable is not local, then you look in the procedure that _called_ this procedure. if it's not there, you look in the procedure that called the procedure that called this procedure, as so on. 14:41:31 I really can't tell you the exact definition of dynamic scope or lexical scope... These are stuff I know more intuitively than formally. But wikipedia should give you some good defs; if not, some book should help 14:41:55 the people here are also telling you things (I didn't read... but they should be good) 14:42:25 was reading wikipedia got the question in the first place 14:42:30 haha 14:42:58 b4283: here's an example that shows the difference between dynamic and lexical scoping: 14:42:58 (define a 5) 14:42:58 (define (foo) a) 14:42:58 (define (bar) (let ((a 10)) (foo))) 14:43:07 phao: also SICP. 14:43:21 b4283: SICP can help you understand scoping. 14:43:21 yeah 14:43:32 with lexical scoping (bar) returns 10. With dynamic scoping (bar) returns 5. 14:43:39 b4283: also "Programming in Scheme" goes into great depth about it. 14:43:43 (f)'s output changed with (g) 14:43:45 b4283: (in a tutorial sort of way) 14:43:50 qU1j0t3, what is that one? 14:43:56 phao: Abelson iirc 14:44:01 phao: and Eichenberg 14:44:05 phao: good book! helped me a lot. 14:44:05 b4283, that's because they've captured the same binding 14:44:08 hmm 14:44:16 I don't remember having seen it... 14:44:23 *phao* searching 14:44:26 i recommend it as a companion to SICP. 14:44:34 only the binding, not the value, i think i get it now 14:44:37 I should re-read scheme sometime 14:44:40 ops 14:44:41 sicp 14:44:54 I read up to chapter 3, doing all exercises... But I don't remember why, never finished. 14:45:02 phao: Programming in Scheme is probably too slow and basic for an experienced schemer, though. it's meant for scheme beginners but goes a long way. 14:45:16 phao: i'm in Chapter 2. slow though. 14:45:24 phao: yes, the exercises are crucial. 14:45:55 b4283, sicp explains the evironment model 14:46:02 and gives some clue on how you can implement a scheme interpreter 14:46:18 jonathansizz [~ian@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:46:22 this shows you how this can be seen (one way you could look at this whole thing) 14:46:23 getpwnam [~ian@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:46:24 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #scheme 14:46:30 mark_weaver: i tried your code in guile and both returns 5 14:46:32 I think it should help you understand, looking at that. 14:46:52 b4283: That's because Guile uses lexical scoping. 14:47:03 hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has joined #scheme 14:47:13 b4283: However, if Scheme used dynamic scoping, then (bar) would return 10. 14:48:40 b4283, lexical scope says that the binding an expression sees is the last defined one, for the name it uses. Dynamic scope doesn't do that, iirc. 14:48:50 I am not sure if that is how it's explained. 14:48:51 rudybot: eval (let () (define a 5) (define (foo) a) (define (bar) (let ((a 10)) (foo))) (bar)) 14:48:51 ski: ; Value: 5 14:49:00 mark_weaver : you had it the other way around, above 14:49:03 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:49:14 can i get rudybot in other channels :Q 14:49:23 ski: indeed I did. oops! 14:49:27 Well, idk how to explain the difference very well hehehehe 14:49:28 Natch| [~Natch|@178.73.212.231] has joined #scheme 14:49:49 rudybot: can you please join the other channels b4283 wants you in? 14:49:49 ski: you have to register to nickserv to talk in some channels 14:50:00 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:14 rudybot: yes, i know, but you're evading the question 14:50:15 ski: anyway, your Palm of Slapping is powerless against my +2...Duck?...of Evading 14:50:57 b4283 : maybe you could succeed in persuading him .. 14:50:59 rudybot: (expt 33 (expt 33 33)) 14:50:59 b4283: your sandbox is ready 14:51:09 b4283: error: with-limit: out of time 14:51:10 hehe 14:51:36 you can talk to rudybot in pvt too 14:52:02 b4283: with lexical scoping (as used by Scheme), if a variable is not local, you find its value by looking at the code surrounding its use. With dynamic scoping, it it's not local, you find its value by looking for its value in the procedures that called this procedure. 14:52:35 ah! very cool indeed 14:53:03 mark_weaver: your explination hit the spot 14:53:11 b4283, lexical scoping lets you look at bindings in a more localized way 14:53:21 b4283: excellent! :) 14:54:20 b4283: btw, Guile also allows you to do something kind of like dynamic scoping, using something called "fluids". 14:54:28 -!- oldpier [~woonie@124.109.163.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:41 but for most purposes, lexical scoping is superior. 14:54:46 sounds like a juicy scheme 14:54:47 lol 14:54:52 phao, mark_weaver: thanks alot for the answers (and patience too) 14:55:02 b4283: you're welcome! 14:55:24 i find this channel hospitable 14:55:41 b4283, mainly if you went to ##c 14:55:52 :D 14:57:41 most of the busy channels are pretty horrible 14:57:54 mark_weaver: imo i would say lexical scope is better too 14:58:33 it's fairly well established at this point .. b4283 most functional languages are. 14:59:52 b4283: When Scheme was first invented, its use of lexical scope was considered quite radical. Lisps before that were all dynamically scoped. Nowadays, most Lisps (including Common Lisp) and most other modern languages are lexically scoped. 15:00:20 other than emacs lisp 15:00:24 which did it now too 15:00:41 no it didn't .... 15:00:41 b4283: Emacs Lisp is still dynamically scoped, although the just-released Emacs 24.1 has support for lexical scope (if you specifically ask for it) 15:00:48 dynamic scoping seems to be one of these "dirty features" that is VERY HANDY 15:01:00 but can get out of control very easily 15:01:01 bleh 15:01:05 but idk... I only read abou tit 15:01:08 about it* 15:01:31 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:52 tit 15:02:13 eheh 15:02:22 nozzle 15:03:16 just reviewing some text above, qU1j0t3, wrote some emacs lisp on the side and loved let* (which seemingly stolen from scheme) and named let (for loops) 15:03:34 b4283: cool. 15:03:36 i cannot find a way to write better loop than named lets 15:03:50 b4283: macros can provide alternative ways of phrasing loops. 15:04:13 well 15:04:21 b4283: e.g. http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/puzzles/trunk/quad/ch11_for.scm 15:04:24 I really like having specific "counting" loop macros 15:04:36 b4283: saves a lot of boilerplate, sometimes. 15:04:42 stuff like (for i from 0 to 10 inc 2 ) 15:05:00 (from i from 0 downto -40 ) 15:05:05 what does a (nozzle? nozzle?) construct mean in say a define ? 15:05:07 for* 15:05:14 b4283: there are a number of nice loop macros for scheme, which include 'do' (part of standard Scheme), 'foof loop', and SRFI-42. 15:05:15 phao: common lisp got a (loop) is pretty much it 15:05:35 phao: very versatile in a way.... 15:05:38 'foof loop' is kind of like common lisp's loop macro. 15:05:46 But usually, I prefer the named lets than do loops for example 15:06:48 oldpier [~woonie@124.109.163.3] has joined #scheme 15:06:58 SRFI-42 is the answer 15:07:14 (is it?) 15:09:00 I like SRFI-42 quite a lot, but there are many ways to do it :) 15:10:04 ah, only supported in guile 2.0 15:12:07 b4283: do you need to support earlier versions of Guile? 15:12:23 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:12:26 b4283: also, there's a reference implementation of SRFI-42 that could be used with Guile 1.8. 15:12:52 b4283 : for loops, there's also 15:13:22 mark_weaver: not really, just Arch hasn't deployed 2.0 yet :P 15:13:54 ski: thx, just opened just the same link :p 15:14:56 b4283: Guile 2 is a _very_ significant improvement over Guile 1.8. I highly recommend upgrading, even if you have to build from source. 15:15:04 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-141-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:46 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-52-148-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 15:18:31 ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 15:23:55 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 15:25:39 -!- oldpier [~woonie@124.109.163.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:29:05 b4283: Ther is guile-devel in AUR 15:29:46 i know, it's running at "GUILEC language/bytecode/spec.go" right now 15:29:58 oh ;) 15:31:27 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:33:40 evalapply [~vu3rdd@122.167.101.177] has joined #scheme 15:34:35 oldpier [~woonie@g1-27-253-211-143.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:36:36 -!- ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:00 ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 15:37:07 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 15:37:28 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:49 -!- evalapply [~vu3rdd@122.167.101.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:59 oldpier2 [~woonie@124.109.163.3] has joined #scheme 15:43:13 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:43:15 -!- oldpier [~woonie@g1-27-253-211-143.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:45 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:54:40 -!- mvuets [~mvuets@95.154.250.228] has quit [Quit: 73!] 16:05:40 jewel [~jewel@196.215.220.160] has joined #scheme 16:05:59 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:09:41 imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:09:55 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:10:19 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.112.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:56 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:16 -!- ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:50 ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:17:03 -!- jonathansizz [~ian@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:33 -!- hash_table [~quassel@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:33 -!- getpwnam [~ian@128.249.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:21:30 shardz [~s@ilo.staticfree.info] has joined #scheme 16:22:38 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.112.29] has joined #scheme 16:24:47 lispor [~lispor@110.52.62.11] has joined #scheme 16:28:12 -!- lispor [~lispor@110.52.62.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:41 -!- ramrunner [~dsp@host86-167-254-180.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:09 -!- imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:37:51 imphasing|home [~Alex@97-81-80-39.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 16:41:39 foof-loop is most certainly not like Common Lisp's loop macro! 16:42:35 *qU1j0t3* hears echoes of anguish fading into the recesses of the cave 16:43:50 Riastradh: well, I said "kind of like". admittedly, I haven't looked at either of them in depth, but superficially they look quite similar to me, at least compared with any other scheme loop macro I know of. 16:45:08 Golly. I'm...at a loss to see even superficial similarities other than the name `loop'. 16:52:22 neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire! 16:53:04 Riastradh: well, both have a list of clauses that can contain things like iterators of various kinds, accumulators of various kinds, termination conditions, statements to execute, etc. although the syntax of those clauses are different the overall structure and philosophy of the API strikes me as very similar. but perhaps I'm showing my ignorance of those looping forms. 16:59:02 going afk for a while... 16:59:56 jonrafkind [~jon@racket/jonrafkind] has joined #scheme 17:04:32 lol @ wingo 17:16:36 tcleval [~funnyguy@177.19.99.66] has joined #scheme 17:17:22 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.220.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:21:17 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:23:20 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:23:30 kk`` [~kk@217.155.42.31] has joined #scheme 17:24:09 -!- 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[~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:07:02 -!- eni is now known as albacker 20:07:07 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:07:07 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 20:09:28 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:47 choas [~lars@p4FDC49D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:18 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 20:31:24 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:30 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 20:31:38 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:33:14 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 20:39:16 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:17 hoi 20:43:15 Baah. Machine-dependent compilers suck. I'm looking at Scheme->C, and what are its backends for? Alhpa, DEC MIPS, SGI MIPS, HP 300, HP 700, Mac OS 7.1, Vax, and Win16. 20:43:19 Bleeargh. 20:43:58 chicken is a scheme to C compiler 20:44:07 antithesis [~antithesi@s51476e07.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 20:44:21 True, and so is Gambit. But I'm interested in historical implementations. 20:44:39 stalin? 20:44:46 I'm reading the pre-R2RS material from rrrs-editors, and only one implementation survives from then until now, MIT. 20:44:48 chicken and gambit are in the present =) 20:44:53 that sort of counts as history too =) 20:45:06 Stalin is in the present too, but the Stalin community is zero or even negative. 20:45:09 nuuuh =) I have no clue about this stuff 20:45:50 There is not so much as a mailing list for Stalin users, so each operates (AFAICT) in complete isolation from the rest. 20:46:02 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.112.29] has joined #scheme 20:46:23 When I asked one such 'dillo about the situation, he said "My patches suffice for me: why would I want anyone else's?" 20:46:29 jcowan: you can't get much more 'historical' than that set of back-ends. How amusing. I own hardware for at least half of those. :) 20:46:53 "the Stalin community is zero or even negative." heheh 20:47:18 jcowan: there's a gambit paper about the early days when it was implemented in prolog (?), or something. But I think it is still too recent for your purposes. 20:47:46 scheme implemented in prolog =) 20:49:58 *jcowan* notes that Wine has support for Win16, though only on i386 systems. 20:50:40 qU1j0t3: Well, you could run MacLisp on ITS, or even on Multics. That'd be deeply historical. 20:50:53 And then run Scheme (the original) and Rabbit on top. 20:50:59 mario-goulart: yes that paper was linked here today or yesterday 20:52:03 -!- i1126 [~i1126@85.88.17.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:52:18 "Prolog is a fun language, on it's own, but one feels like his arms have been cut off and his legs made 100 times more powerful when using prolog; it empowers you in some aspects, but completely disables you in others" 20:53:36 hm, maybe not re paper) 20:54:31 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:54:32 i made a huge amazon buy yesterday at 5 am 20:54:41 dammit amazon not making me go check for my card number... they make it too easy to buy 20:54:50 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable044.80-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:24 *mario-goulart* once bought two little schemers by accident (1-click buy thing) 20:55:34 i1126 [~i1126@85.88.17.198] has joined #scheme 20:56:40 ohh sorry this is the #scheme channel :p 20:58:32 mario-goulart: well, you could glue them together to make a Medium Sized Schemer 20:58:41 :-) 20:59:34 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 21:00:51 jcowan: all the archaeological study on lisp/scheme you are doing is worth a very interesting book. I'd buy it. 21:01:11 So would I. :-) 21:01:22 :-) 21:01:25 But I'm just looking to find out things, not taking notes to explain them to other people. 21:01:48 bfig: Amazon is a bunch of schemers, all right. 21:02:32 jcowan: you could write in a online diary about your findings and never read it 21:03:04 Too much like work. 21:03:55 To use callcc in Haskell, you have to be inside a Cont monad, correct? 21:04:17 (I mean, excluding the idea of rewriting everything in CPS by hand.) 21:04:21 -!- Natch| [~Natch|@178.73.212.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:05:55 well, idk if it'd help you jcowan 21:05:59 there's readscheme 21:06:09 some papers there, maybe, talk about implementations 21:06:27 Good point, thanks. 21:06:37 techniques for compilation... stuff like that 21:07:23 I think I have read everything available on the implementation page 21:07:36 at one time or another 21:07:44 maybe you should make one =) 21:07:55 one implementation 21:08:04 Natch| [~Natch|@178.73.212.231] has joined #scheme 21:08:11 I have a plan to make a deliberately half-assed implementation 21:08:13 tomobrien [~tomobrien@host-92-2-73-195.as43234.net] has joined #scheme 21:08:30 and end the war in Vietnam while I'm at it. 21:09:28 well, I don't know about this stuff anyway. I remember seeing another websites with scheme related papers, but I don't remember the name 21:09:37 website* 21:12:46 jcowan : re `Cont', yes (or use some variant of it) 21:13:12 Thanks. Saved me from making a fool of myself on LtU. (As opposed to playing the fool, which I frequently do.) 21:14:12 -!- mvuets [~mvuets@dhcp-077-248-147-148.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: 73!] 21:14:21 OTOH, I almost write "captured communication" instead of "captured continuation" 21:14:22 (.. SML/NJ and MLton have primitive `callcc', and i think Oleg made an implementation of composable continuations for O'Caml) 21:15:52 Right, but they are impure anyway. 21:16:37 I was pointing out that the CL condition system is an inextricable mixture of pure handlers (unless they decide to escape) and impure handler selection (via a dynamic variable). 21:16:44 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:17:02 mark_weaver [~user@TURNTABLE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:17:03 i think to get pure reified continuations, you need to make sure they're (normally) neither discarded nor used twice -- possibly using a linear type system 21:17:30 The most recent posting is about returning a condition object when you fail, and I pointed out that if you make all procedures polymorphic over conditions by default, you get something close to termination semantics. 21:17:31 (Andrzej Filinski's thesis about the symmetric lamba calculus might be interesting) 21:17:54 i.e. conditions are like NaN; unless you are spec'd to handle it specially, if your argument is a condition, you don't execute your body, you just return the condition. 21:18:19 jcowan: you were asking for opinions about whether 'record?' is useful. fwiw, I can't think of any good use for it, and in fact I suspect that any code that uses it is likely broken. 21:18:29 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:18:29 Thanks. 21:18:35 What is your reasoning? 21:19:06 jcowan: one question I would ask is: should 'record?' be guaranteed to return #false for all other types described in the report? 21:19:19 jcowan: because I could imagine a reasonable implementation using records to implement various other types. 21:19:23 I think so, yes. 21:19:26 jcowan : the problem with that is side-effects, i think 21:19:33 Hence the R6RS idea of opaque records, which record? returns #t on. 21:20:17 jcowan: to my mind, the whole idea of creating records is to create a new type that's disjoint from all others. when I create a new type, to my mind it is nobody's business whether it's implemented in terms of a record or some other underlying representation. 21:20:29 ski: Yes. The posting is about how you can do exceptions while remaining pure. 21:20:32 (also, what happens when several of your arguments are conditions ?) 21:20:35 (or something like exceptions) 21:20:44 Eh, we'll say we curry everything. 21:21:12 some kind of combination might be more user-friendly 21:21:24 jcowan: I could easily imagine an implementation that implements ports as records, for example. 21:21:36 However, to really get the right effect you also have to intercept things like a condition in the first argument of `if`. 21:21:57 jcowan: I would press for an example -- any example -- of a justifiable use case for 'record?' 21:21:58 You can use a type & effect system to enforce purity in the presence of control. 21:22:00 mark_weaver: I think it's the usual thing for some CL standard objects to be implemented as records, notably random-states. 21:22:10 asumu: True, but what hair! 21:23:03 heck, I could even imagine some types of numbers (e.g. rationals, complex, bignums) being implemented as records. 21:23:33 jcowan: indeed! 21:23:36 Indeed, though there are some messy consequences to implementing any sort of datum as a record. 21:23:56 jcowan: what messy consequences? 21:24:15 I just read an interesting paper about how to non-conservatively extend H-M typing to imperative systems such that the imperative functions have the same type as their pure counterparts. 21:24:16 aborting exceptions is fairly easy to do purely, using a monad 21:24:25 You have to give up on polymorphically typed non-values, though. 21:24:39 *jcowan* fears the monad. 21:25:04 Le silence eternel des ces monades infinis m'effraie 21:25:05 jcowan : yes, that's the approach SML and O'Caml ended up using ("the value restriction") 21:26:21 implementing aborting exceptions *efficiently* with a monad is harder. one way is using Filinski's monadic reflection (needs delimited continuations in the language) 21:26:43 i think Shivers' & Fischer's "Multi-Return Function Call" could be another way 21:27:45 jcowan : ooi, which paper was that ? 21:29:34 i don't know how hard it would be to implement restartable conditions monadically -- i suspect could be relevant, though 21:29:39 ski: trying to find it 21:30:12 (partly this is because i don't understand the advanced condition systems of the lisps well) 21:32:26 ski: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 21:32:27 I hate how everybody names the files containing their papers after the venue. 21:32:31 klutometis: nice namecheck on Norvig; I am reading them both, mostly AIMA at the moment. Great books. 21:33:13 jcowan: yeah, that annoys me too. I always have to rename the file after I download it so I have a hope of recognizing it later. 21:33:22 re monads, you could say that each monad codifies a certain "style" as in "continuation-passing-style", "accumulator/state - passing/threding - style", "error-propagation-style", &c. 21:33:53 pjb : ty. i recall seeing that mentioned. i should get to reading it 21:34:04 Yes, it's really only the I/O monad that's creepy. 21:34:17 But then it's kinda creepy that in eager languages, main() is called without a caller. 21:34:25 (at the language level) 21:34:37 (`main' in Haskell is no different from that) 21:34:52 Well, you can formulate it as a dual 21:35:28 in pure Haskell, nothing ever happens, because everything is lazy, until the "miracle at the end" which causes a demand from the environment for the program to be evaluated. 21:35:38 s/evaluated/forced 21:35:44 to a first approximation, you can think of the `IO' monad as being a state monad that threads the state of the world through your computation -- this is what actually happens in Clean (sans the monads) 21:36:08 whereas in C, it's the "miracle at the beginning", the environment asks the program to evaluate itself. 21:36:19 monads arent really very closely related to non-strict evaluation 21:36:32 jcowan : but i see your point 21:36:33 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC49D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:37:22 But nobody bothers with them in strict languages, except concatenative language where the equivalent of a monad is that an output function has the signature (P O -- P) where P is some port and O is some object 21:37:48 that is, the state of the world actually is threaded through your program because it just sits on the bottom of the stack. 21:37:49 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:30 ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:38:37 I really like Henry Baker's paper on the equivalence of Forth and linear Lisp. 21:38:51 carefully write your code in linear Lisp, compile to Forth 21:38:54 well, Lwt (Light-Weight cooperative Threads) in O'Caml uses a monadic interface, even though O'Caml is a strict language 21:39:43 (jcowan : in your concatenative example, i'd s/monad/state monad/) 21:39:59 Yes, I meant I/O monad 21:41:08 Damn, I will have to wait till I get home and fetch the hard copy out of my (physical) recycle bin 21:41:10 (i also suspect that events in Concurrent ML forms a monad) 21:41:21 and then there's LINQ in C# .. 21:41:32 Indeed. 21:41:50 That's Meijer selling himself to Microsoft to bring functional programming to the average programmer (as he himself said) 21:42:03 hehe, yea 21:42:10 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/papers/icfp06.pdf 21:43:00 :) 21:43:44 "For some reason, mod_haskell never even got close to the astronomical popularity of mod_perl." 21:43:46 imo, monads arise in programming mostly as common ways of expressing things, leaving a desire to remove the boiler-plate 21:44:23 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:27 for some of these classes of boiler-plate, we have various different kinds of side-effects : state, exceptions, continuations, nondeterministic search 21:44:29 and ditto for HaskellScript 21:45:05 Ah, here it is. 21:45:06 Heh. Although part of that is that people eventually realized that making your language interpreter part of the web server runtime is not actually the best way to do things. 21:45:13 in some other cases there is no built-in support for the boiler-plate-removal directly in the language, and so we can then use a hand-written monad there 21:45:34 "Just like modern art does not evokes strong positive feelings in people, the Mondrian language failed to seduce the (functional) language community at all. Apparently, I lack any salesmanship skills, so to save the common programmer I decided to sell my soul to the most popular programming paradigm, objects, and to the company that has the biggest market share, Microsoft." 21:46:16 "To appreciate the diculties of XML let us now make a short 21:46:16 excursion to the world of XML schema [8], perhaps the best 21:46:16 example of a south-pointing chariot in computer science. XSD 21:46:16 must be one of the most complex artifacts invented by mankind, 21:46:16 where simply using DTDs (or a compass instead of the chariot) 21:46:17 would be a perfectly ne solution." 21:46:21 *jcowan* laughs. 21:46:27 Of course, RELAX NG is better than either. 21:47:25 The justification for using XML Schemas vs DTDs seemed reasonable to me, but you're probably right about RELAX NG. 21:48:38 "This led me to the realization that Visual Basic was the ideal language for the road ahead because it is the only widespread language that allows static typing where possible and dynamic typing where necessary." 21:49:52 It takes a special kind of guy to envision Visual Basic is the perfect vehicle for bringing Haskell to the masses. 21:50:51 Indeed. 21:51:00 I have seen him give talks, and he does not *give* them, he *dances* them. 21:52:28 "Haskell, the world's finest imperative language" 21:53:00 From my TagSoup page: 21:53:04 TagSoup is written in the world's finest imperative programming language, as opposed to my TagSoup, which is written in perhaps the world's most widely used imperative programming language. As far as I can make out, TagSoup only lexes its input, and does not attempt to balance tags in the style of my TagSoup. 21:53:11 levi : i think SPJ originated that quote ? 21:53:28 it's a Haskell library, as mine is a Java library 21:53:42 I dunno, it was used without quotation marks or attribution in the paper jcowan linked. 21:54:00 (er, realized i forgot to link to Lwt above) 21:54:14 When something becomes a proverb, you don't really need quotation marks. 21:54:20 Live and learn. 21:54:28 (^^^ example of the foregoing rule) 21:55:04 Sure, I wasn't suggesting it needed attribution, just noting that the place I saw it didn't provide any. 21:55:18 *jcowan* nods. 21:55:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:56:02 rrrs-editors were discussing the behavior of EQ? and EQV? already in 1985 21:56:11 "Haskell, the world's finest imperative language" --Abraham Lincoln, master programmer 21:56:12 same arguments, same conclusions or lack of them 21:56:19 Quote magnets rule. 21:56:28 (Lincoln, Shaw, Twain, etc.) 21:57:41 (for Concurrent ML, see ,,) 21:57:48 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: reboot!] 22:00:45 -!- mark_weaver [~user@TURNTABLE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:01 githogori [~githogori@23.sub-75-208-159.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 22:01:14 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:03:51 ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:05:13 "And it slowly started to dawn 22:05:13 on me that you can overdo static typing.Unfortunately, I had 22:05:15 not yet hit bottom." 22:05:32 -!- tomobrien [~tomobrien@host-92-2-73-195.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:28 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:43 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@177.19.99.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:17 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10:00 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 22:10:16 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:10:26 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #scheme 22:10:30 ASau [~user@95-26-139-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:11:07 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.163.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:40 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:00 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 22:15:24 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #scheme 22:18:42 ski: found the paper I was talking about. 22:19:16 ok ? 22:19:46 Andrew K. Wright, Simple Imperative Polymorphism at http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/lasc95-w.ps.gz 22:20:04