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Here is my code http://pastebin.com/Zn1FRBrE . (Foldl + 0 '(1 2 3)) works, (Foldl + 0 (quote 1 2 3)) does not. 01:30:48 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:41 '(1 2 3) == (quote (1 2 3)). 01:33:45 (quote 1 2 3) is not valid. 01:34:04 rudybot: (quote 1 2 3) 01:34:05 cky: your sandbox is ready 01:34:05 cky: error: #:1:0: quote: bad syntax (wrong number of parts) in: (quote 1 2 3) 01:34:09 rudybot: (quote (1 2 3)) 01:34:09 cky: ; Value: (1 2 3) 01:34:39 schemenewb: ^^--- 01:36:03 cky: you are very right 01:38:37 Glad to be of help. :-) 01:39:41 cky: so why is (list (quote 3) (quote 4) (quote 5)) and (list 3 4 5) not matched? 01:41:01 -!- Guest33334 is now known as X-Scale 01:45:25 that breaks the syntax, then it is considering 3 4 and 5, as objects 01:45:26 no ? 01:46:41 MontgoDB1 [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:46:55 -!- MontgoDB [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:46:58 schemenewb: why are you writing foldl as a macro? 01:47:40 asumu: because I have an exam coming up and this seems to be the best way to study for it 01:48:39 schemenewb: what I think asumu means to say is, there is no reason for foldl to be a macro 01:48:55 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: beep] 01:49:08 and so, er, don't do that 01:49:12 ijp: oh I see, thats very true I can evaluate all the arguments without any harm to the functionality. 01:49:36 schemenewb: It's not just that, there's no way you'll make the macro actually work like the function foldl. 01:49:44 -!- dgs [~dgs@98.143.144.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:53 Unless you end up writing a function version of foldl that your macro expands to. 01:50:06 asumu: because...? 01:50:19 schemenewb: How can your macro determine if the list is empty? 01:50:27 (well, not no reason, I've implemented it as a macro so that it gets inlined, but that is considered harmful) 01:51:20 asumu: by matchin as in above code, which is why its very unflexible. I do see your argument though. Do you have some advice on general guidelines towards when to or not to use a macro? 01:51:43 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #scheme 01:52:06 schemenewb: That only works for a literal list. What if my list is the result of evaluating (do-something-complicated 18 "foobar")? 01:52:30 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:52 schemenewb: when to use macros: http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg01539.html 01:53:00 rking [rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #scheme 01:53:20 Another guideline: if you can use a function to do it, use a function. 01:53:30 asumu: I appreciate that input. Thank you for your help. Same goes for cky and ijp. 01:53:50 thats a good rule of thumb 01:53:57 I'm a very non-serious user, here - brand new, and I don't have time to really play with it yet, but I don't quite understand why tinyscheme is saying, "Error: illegal function" when I do: (1 2 3) 01:54:06 Same goes for (cdr (1 2)) 01:54:22 rking: 1 is not a function and (a b c) means "apply a as a function to arguments b and c" 01:54:36 asumu: Aha, that makes sense. 01:54:43 I think you want (quote (1 2 3)) or '(1 2 3) 01:54:58 asumu: But I thought (x y z) was short for (x . (y . z)) ? 01:55:19 asumu: I see, yep. 01:55:41 (quote (x y z)) is basically short for (cons 'x (cons 'y (cons 'z '()))) 01:56:05 And (x . y) is... (cons x y) ? 01:56:06 rking: not quite (x . (y . (z . ()))) 01:56:12 yes 01:56:12 rking: quote uses data mode for the next "item". 01:56:22 Hrm. Data mode. 01:56:22 rking: Thus, '(1 2 3) sees the (1 2 3) in data mode. 01:56:37 rking: Without the quote, it's treated as code mode, and eval will try to run it. 01:56:40 Yes, so I see why (cdr (1 2)) wasn't working -- it was also trying "1" as a function. 01:56:46 Yes. 01:56:49 OK, code mode, data mode, makes sense. 01:57:14 *rking* goes off, with newfound knowledge, to implement an enterprise RDBMS in scheme. 01:57:23 :-D 01:57:40 Maybe not, but I do finally get some stuff that I never did when attempting to read this stuff. 01:58:00 rking: lol, gavino's pet project. 01:58:50 rking: FYI, if you didn't try them when you attempted earlier, you might read The Little Schemer or How to Design Programs. The first one is pretty short. 01:59:04 -!- schemenewb [8e01fed5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.1.254.213] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:59:19 dgs [~dgs@98.143.144.118] has joined #scheme 01:59:36 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 02:00:40 asumu: I have "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days", I was reading it at dinner. So far I'm learning stuff. Are those other two open texts? 02:03:32 rking: that book was good, but now it's quite out-of-date as the author hasn't updated it in a while. The Little Schemer isn't, but How to Design Programs is here: http://www.htdp.org 02:04:01 OK, I'll stop playing around and continue reading... but first, why doesn't this work: (define (f a) (a a a)) then (f 1) 02:04:34 And also, when I type a bare 'f', it says #. Is there a way to see inside that? 02:04:58 rking: Usually, no. 02:05:03 k. 02:05:04 Same problem. When you apply a function, it substitutes the parameter in the body with the given argument. So here you are getting (1 1 1), which isn't a valid function call. 02:05:06 rking: Some implementations do store the function source. 02:05:09 rking: But most don't. 02:05:22 asumu: Ahhh 02:05:40 rking: Right, what you need is (list a a a). 02:05:50 list is a function that returns all the items you specify, as a list. 02:05:58 rudybot: (list 1 2 3 4 5) 02:05:58 cky: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5) 02:06:05 Is that any different from '(a a a)? 02:06:07 rudybot: (list (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4 5)) 02:06:07 cky: ; Value: (3 12) 02:06:14 rking: '(a a a) is usable for literal data only. 02:06:22 rking: list is usable for building lists from non-literal stuff. 02:06:23 Ohhh 02:06:23 rking: BTW, if you do read HtDP, start with the (incomplete) 2nd edition: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/ 02:06:34 (it's better, but isn't done so you can supplement with the 1st ed) 02:06:41 Right.. (define (g a) '(a a a)) then (g 1) returns (a a a) 02:06:52 asumu: Cool. I will. 02:08:44 rking: Right, hence the need for list. 02:09:00 rking: You can also use quasiquote, if you want. That allows you to skip in and out of data mode. 02:09:01 Thanks for going into slow-mode forme. 02:09:08 e.g., (define (g a) `(,a ,a ,a)) will work too. 02:09:26 cky: Hehe, OK. I'll figure that one out eventually. 02:09:46 :-) 02:09:57 rudybot: `(1 2 (+ 3 4) ,(+ 3 4)) 02:09:57 cky: ; Value: (1 2 (+ 3 4) 7) 02:10:20 rking: Notice how the item following the , is evaluated. 02:10:23 I'm actually getting "Error: eval: unbound variable: quasiquote" 02:10:30 What?! What implementation are you using? 02:10:34 -!- noam [~noam@37.142.141.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:35 tinyscheme 02:10:36 noam_ [~noam@37.142.141.69] has joined #scheme 02:10:40 Fail. :-( 02:10:55 I tried "emerge scheme" but it started downloading xemacs, and I figured that's a ridiculous dependency. 02:11:10 Does Gentoo have Racket, Chicken, or Guile? 02:11:18 Any one of those implementations are reasonable. 02:11:33 http://packages.gentoo.org/package/dev-scheme/racket 02:11:37 cky: It has all 3. 02:11:44 Very nice. 02:11:47 http://packages.gentoo.org/package/dev-scheme/chicken 02:11:59 Hrm. Seems like guile has more additional stuff, like guile-gtk. 02:11:59 I'm sure it has Guile since I think some of GNOME depends on it. :) 02:12:10 asumu: :-D 02:12:12 yeah, solitaire 02:12:15 :P 02:12:17 ijp: AisleRiot. 02:12:22 Not "solitaire". 02:12:45 Doesn't Gnumeric use it too? I don't know if that's included by default usually though. 02:12:50 *ijp* throws a shiny thing in front of cky 02:12:51 So are people out there doing like day to day business logic stuff for the web in Scheme? 02:13:00 maybe that'll keep your mind of pedantry :) 02:13:02 I say this because IIRC, GNOME has more than one solitaire game, and AisleRiot is the programmable one. 02:13:17 rking: Yes, in fact Racket has a fully functional web framework. 02:13:21 I have a hard enough time getting poeple to upgrade from Perl to Ruby, I can't imagine the difficulties in getting people aboard FP. 02:14:44 rking: There's usually no point casting pearls in front of swine. 02:14:59 This is true. 02:15:01 rking: Build a team that wants to code in Scheme. The rest will follow. :-) 02:15:06 Right. 02:15:32 rking: a couple of people on the Racket mailing list have shared their stories about being Racket consultants. e.g. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.racket.user/10597 02:15:55 And I'm sure the same goes for other Schemes. 02:16:05 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 02:17:13 At least Ruby is relatively nice though. Maybe the closest thing to Scheme in mainstream use? 02:17:52 I agree, currently Ruby is my second-favourite language. 02:19:11 -!- ijp [~user@host86-168-32-151.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:19 drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has joined #scheme 02:21:03 ijp [~user@host86-182-155-116.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 02:28:32 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:28:47 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:20 -!- kvda [~kvda@202.58.240.18] has quit [Quit: x__x] 02:37:13 -!- RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:40:05 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:47:10 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 02:49:29 -!- MontgoDB1 [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:50 MontgoDB [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:50:53 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-164.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 02:51:24 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-228.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:52:27 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:54:06 MontgoDB1 [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:54:11 -!- MontgoDB [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:55:32 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:55:55 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 02:55:56 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-171-77.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:56:10 amoe [~amoe@host-92-26-171-77.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:21 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:03:48 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 03:05:47 MontgoDB [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:06:33 jhemann_ [~Jason@adsl-99-186-238-243.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:07:11 -!- MontgoDB1 [~mmontgome@cpe-66-69-6-73.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:12 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 03:08:38 -!- jhemann [~Jason@99.186.238.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:39 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:09:09 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 03:09:13 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:46 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:10:07 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 03:11:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-85.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:51 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:12:22 DanV2 [~IceChat9@c-76-123-240-4.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:13:36 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176173855.dsl.bell.ca] has left #scheme 03:16:21 Can someone answer a quick question about tail recursion for me? I have a function which is trying to find the minimum element in a list. This is the part with recursion at the end of the program: 03:16:21 (if (< (car l) (min (cdr l))) 03:16:21 (car l) 03:16:21 (min (cdr l))) 03:16:21 Does the (car l) break tail-end recursion since it happens after the recursive call in the conditional? 03:17:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:18:11 douglas19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has joined #scheme 03:18:32 -!- douglas19 is now known as douglasdrumond19 03:21:04 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-24.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 03:21:06 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:21:27 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-164.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:21:29 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:21:51 -!- douglasdrumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:45 http://hpaste.org/67522 <- for somebody who knows opengl, nothing is printing 03:27:41 DanV2: I'm not sure what you mean by "break tail recursion" 03:27:52 the loop will terminate, yes 03:28:28 but the reason that loop wouldn't be tail recursive, is because you call min in a non tail position (in the test of the if-expression) 03:28:29 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:29:30 Ok, that is what I meant 03:29:31 Thanks 03:29:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:39:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:39:57 estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:41:52 -!- DanV2 [~IceChat9@c-76-123-240-4.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:46:18 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:52:36 bfig: I know opengl 03:52:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 03:53:03 -!- woonie3 [~woonie@nusnet-26-9.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:53:09 adu, nvm i already solved the problem. thanks for showing up anyway :). can i ask you something if i get suck later? 03:53:17 sure 03:53:22 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-231.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:53:25 mmm what's the proper way to use @ in a quasiquote? 03:53:27 I'll be awake for at least an hour 03:53:53 i want to execute (gl:Ortho (splice-a-list-with-4-numbers) -1.0 1.0) 03:54:05 bfig: I don't know, but in my scheme I found (list ,@data) to work out well 03:54:13 ok 03:55:14 (gl:Ortho ,@(cdr cam) -1.0 1.0) <- should this work? 03:55:21 -!- homie [~levgue@78.35.173.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:55:23 bfig: for that I would use (apply gl:Ortho (append list-with-4-numbers '(-1.0 1.0))) 03:55:37 mm right, that is prettier 03:55:45 but how could i do it with splicing? 03:55:53 just to learn the idiom right 03:56:05 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:56:10 (gl:Ortho ,@list-with-4-numbers -1.0 1.0) 03:56:29 what if the list needs to be computed like before... still works? 03:57:05 i'm getting error 'unbound unquote-splicing' 03:57:06 that's what , means 03:58:05 bfig: you can only use it inside a quasiquote 03:58:08 what's illegal about this: (gl:Ortho ,@(cdr cam) -1.0 1.0) 03:58:12 and I don't see any quasiquotes 03:58:20 langmart` [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 03:58:32 if you do wrap it in a quasiquote then it doesn't do anything because it's just data 03:58:55 I recommend my first suggestion of using apply/append 03:59:04 so can i do `,(gl:Ortho ,@(cdr cam) -1.0 1.0) ? 03:59:06 ok 03:59:08 i will do that 03:59:09 no 03:59:48 quasiquotes are for lisp 03:59:57 syntax-rules is for scheme 04:00:32 ok, great 04:00:42 thanks for the tip of appending 04:01:02 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping 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joined #scheme 16:57:39 -!- jhemann [Jason@140-182-224-196.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:50 jhemann [Jason@140-182-224-196.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 16:57:52 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:59:28 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:59:47 fms [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 17:00:03 -!- fms is now known as ebobby 17:14:13 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:24 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:53 bfg [a449200c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.164.73.32.12] has joined #scheme 17:19:31 hello. is there a way to do f64vectors and compute elements inside similar to a quasiquotation syntax 17:19:32 ? 17:24:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-105-85.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:30:05 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.209] has joined #scheme 17:35:08 -!- machine1 [machine1@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:17 bfg: what scheme implementation are you using? 17:37:45 mario-goulart: chicken 17:37:58 Oh! 17:38:20 bfg: you mean something like `#(,(+ 2 3)) ? 17:38:42 i'm building an opengl app and it'd be pretty wicked to be able to do what you just said 17:38:42 according to the srfi it is illegal though 17:39:08 i want to find a moral equivalent to `#f64(,mynum ,(+a b)) 17:39:30 i guess i could make a macro for it 17:39:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:27 machine1 [machine1@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:40:33 turbofail [~user@c-24-5-89-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:09 arcfide [~arcfide@2001:18e8:2:10f4:90e7:416e:40c5:e51f] has joined #scheme 17:42:01 bfg: I don't know exactly how that works. Maybe you could try #chicken. 17:42:27 ok, that's a good idea 17:44:24 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 17:52:30 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.209] has quit [Quit: ] 18:00:24 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 18:00:55 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 18:02:51 -!- bfg [a449200c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.164.73.32.12] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:05:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:44 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:16:55 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6008C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:19:38 -!- masm [~masm@bl18-55-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:35 -!- jhemann [Jason@140-182-224-196.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has 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