00:02:08 turbofail: srfi names are specified in srfi 97 00:04:15 rageous [~Adium@x-134-84-72-234.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #scheme 00:04:19 of course, this is scheme so f**k prior art 00:04:38 f**k prior art; let's dance 00:05:55 except, you know, when discussing just why r6rs is bad 00:06:34 hm 00:07:05 -!- rageous [~Adium@x-134-84-72-234.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:19 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:55 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 00:13:29 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:14:46 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 00:14:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:26 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-153-159.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:56 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:23:08 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjpypkrydkzxfflz] has joined #scheme 00:32:34 samth [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:46:21 dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 00:47:22 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:48:45 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 00:51:44 -!- dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:02 -!- mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:53 -!- kniu [~kniu@pool-173-75-156-3.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:14:18 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 01:18:58 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:26:15 jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-14-211-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:24 jao [~user@160.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:30:38 -!- jao [~user@160.Red-81-39-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:30:38 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:31:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:35:50 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:08 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 01:47:14 jrslepak [~jrslepak@c-71-233-148-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:05 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:52:31 arameus [~maxwell@cpe-184-153-14-33.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:56:07 How would I make a macro that expands all functions? For example, how would I make it so every function expands to display the word "hello" first? 01:56:59 so (+ 1 (* 2 2)) would display "hello" "hello" 5 01:59:10 you'd have to write your own interpreter to do that, or rebind _all_ functions to new versions that display "hello" first. 01:59:24 out of curiosity, why do you need this? 01:59:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.242] has joined #scheme 02:02:59 well, you could do it by transforming the code after macro expansion but before evaluation, but there's no standard way to do that either. 02:05:23 but it could surely be done in some scheme implementations in a non-portable way. 02:08:23 arameus: I know enough about the internals of Guile 2.0 to tell you how to accomplish it in Guile, but I'd still like to know why you need it. perhaps there's a better way to accomplish what you want. 02:09:44 -!- turbofail [~user@c-24-5-89-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:56 arameus, in racket you can do that pretty easily with `local-expand' 02:11:00 rudybot, doc local-expand 02:11:01 samth: your sandbox is ready 02:11:05 samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/stxtrans.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._local-expand)) 02:13:59 -!- ssbr_ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29:21 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:29:39 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:43 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:42:21 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 02:45:29 -!- samth [~samth@c-66-31-201-165.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:54:13 -!- jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-14-211-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:56 lcc [~user@75-173-79-84.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:58 -!- lcc [~user@75-173-79-84.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:57:58 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 02:59:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:05:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:06:29 -!- wingo [~wingo@204.154.109.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:07:47 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:10:44 samth: I am pretty new to scheme but I am using racket. Can you show me an example of how I could to that in racket using local-expand? I took a look at the docs but they are going over my head. 03:13:22 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:48 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 03:33:25 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:34 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:03:28 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:03:49 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 04:05:13 ok, I will explain why. I am a sysadmin and want to use racket to administer a Linux system of mine. I thought it would be cool if I could expand all function calls to the following code: check if the function being called is defined, and if it isn't replace it with a system call. 04:06:01 For example: (ls "/") would become (with-output-to-string (thunk (system "ls /"))) since (ls) is not already defined 04:06:12 that would be so incredibly convenient 04:06:57 ick 04:08:25 I want to do it because systems administration-y things are usually half done on Racket. It would make systems administration in Racket really really easy and convenient for me 04:09:05 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:14 I mean, that has got to be possible somehow 04:09:41 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:41 so whenever you make a typo in a procedure name in the middle of a loop, suddenly it will launch a bunch of processes instead of printing an error. 04:12:03 hba [~hba@187.136.122.15] has joined #scheme 04:13:05 might I suggest a single-character procedure, say '$', so you can do ($ ls) ? 04:13:13 that is fine, and better than trying to reimplement half of POSIX (which still have that problem) 04:13:38 and that is a pretty reasonable approach 04:14:39 well, I guess it needs to be a macro, since you don't want to look up 'ls' as a variable name.. 04:15:23 yeah but that is a much better idea nonetheless. Especially for me, since I am a beginner 04:15:31 in fact, this is my first time using macros 04:15:58 outside of remaking 'if' as an exercise, or something like that 04:16:42 thank you, I will show you how it turns out! 04:17:10 okay, happy hacking! 04:22:55 ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has joined #scheme 04:30:18 The alternative is to specify which commands to define. 04:30:31 arameus: I don't know racket, but I guess you probably want something like this: (untested) 04:30:31 (define-syntax $ 04:30:31 (syntax-rules () 04:30:31 (($ command args ...) 04:30:31 e.g., (commands ls cat top head sudo ...) 04:30:34 (with-output-to-string 04:30:37 (lambda () 04:30:40 (system* (symbol->string 'command) args ...)))))) 04:31:38 +1 04:32:22 yes, I am stuck though. I don't understand how to make my macro accept an arbitrary number of arguments into a list. Like in racket functions I can do this (define (something . args)) and args will be a list of the rest of the arguments 04:34:00 that way I can do ($ ls -l somedir) 04:34:05 and things of that sort 04:34:51 well, you have to make a choice. do you want to treat all symbols arguments as literal strings, or do you want to be able to use a symbol's _value_ as the argument. 04:35:21 in other words, do you want (let ((x "foo")) ($ ls x)) to do "ls x" or "ls foo" ? 04:35:54 the macro I wrote above assumes that you want "ls foo" 04:36:11 if you want "ls x", then you can do this: 04:36:14 yes, that makes more send ("ls foo") 04:36:18 *sense 04:36:30 I hadnt even considered that, to be honest 04:36:49 (define-syntax $ 04:36:49 (syntax-rules () 04:36:49 (($ command arg ...) 04:36:49 (with-output-to-string 04:36:52 (lambda () 04:36:55 (system* (symbol->string 'command) 04:36:58 (symbol->string 'arg) ...)))))) 04:37:03 but yeah, I think the "ls foo" approach is more powerful. 04:37:11 mark_weaver: Another possibility is that ($ ls x) uses literal x, whereas ($ ls ,x) interpolates. 04:37:33 sure, that works too! 04:38:10 mark_weaver: That's how I'm designing a database access layer, so that you have to use ,foo to create a parameter marker. Everything else is literal. Thus, no more SQL injection attacks. :-) 04:38:56 cky: sounds great! :) 04:39:13 :-) 04:39:14 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f77c9d0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:39:17 xwl_ [user@nat/nokia/x-rrcnevzcogyojakm] has joined #scheme 04:40:19 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:15 cky: in racket, is there a shorthand for (with-output-to-string (display x)) ? 04:42:33 (with the 'lambda' that I forgot) 04:42:47 Let's see. 04:42:51 rudybot: (->string 123) 04:42:52 cky: your sandbox is ready 04:42:52 cky: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: ->string in module: 'program 04:42:55 Bummer. 04:44:00 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:44:35 rudybot: (require srfi/26) 04:44:35 cky: Done. 04:44:48 evildaemon [~user@50-35-181-162.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:52 Hello. 04:45:04 arameus: so maybe you want something like this: (untested) 04:45:05 (define-syntax $ 04:45:05 (syntax-rules () 04:45:05 (($ command arg ...) 04:45:08 (with-output-to-string 04:45:11 (lambda () 04:45:16 mark_weaver: you mean (->string x) kinda thing? (I'm not saying it exists, i dunno) 04:45:16 (system* (with-output-to-string (lambda () (display `command))) 04:45:16 (with-output-to-string (lambda () (display `arg))) 04:45:19 ...)))))) 04:45:25 adu: yes 04:45:33 I'm sure a good many of you have read SICP? 04:45:36 rudybot: (define (->string x) (call-with-output-string (cut display x <>))) 04:45:36 cky: Done. 04:45:41 rudybot: (->string 1234) 04:45:41 cky: ; Value: "1234" 04:45:42 evildaemon: yes 04:45:45 arameus: so the above macro (assuming it works) does what cky suggested... 04:45:46 mark_weaver: :-D 04:45:56 adu: Can I do the excercises with any Lisp or just scheme? 04:46:14 evildaemon: they definitely will not work verbatim 04:46:18 adu: Because as far as I can tell the mit-scheme package in Ubuntu repos is borked. 04:46:31 evildaemon: there are hundreds of schemes 04:46:32 evildaemon: it has to be a scheme 04:46:44 Reccomend one? 04:46:53 evildaemon: guile is a fine choice :) 04:47:23 +1 04:47:26 evildaemon: if you wanted to rewrite the excercises in lisp, I would imagine you would have to replace define=>defun, and a billion other things, not to mention "gotchas" like dynamic environment and manually reified functions that might crop up 04:47:55 Okay then. Thanks guys. You're awesome. 04:47:58 adu: the lack of proper tail-recursion would completely bork everything 04:48:16 PTR is the best. :-) 04:48:20 mark_weaver: that would be a gotcha 04:48:31 SICP teaches a programming style that expresses iteration as recursion. 04:49:34 Go is not tail recursive 04:49:51 1.8 or 1.6? 04:50:00 Go is not a Lisp. And really? 04:50:01 adu: huh? 04:50:10 I'm implementing a Scheme in Go 04:50:11 evildaemon: 1.8 04:50:14 I care about these things 04:50:39 evildaemon: preferably 2.0 which will be in ubuntu 12.04, but for now 1.8 will be fine. 04:51:09 Again; thanks. 04:51:13 so I've been reading for a week now, how the main Go compiler implements "return" and it's pretty ugly 04:51:50 evildaemon: happy hacking! 04:51:50 adu: You could try cleaning it up. Unless it's by design, 04:52:33 evildaemon: it is, all the concurrency scheduling and I/O happens between return and the continuation starting up again 04:53:48 adu: I've been looking at Go. You sound like you've had a bit of time to work with it. (No duh.) Would you reccomend it or should I wait for Rust? 04:54:13 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:54:28 evildaemon: Go has done an amazing job at separating concerns. 04:54:40 evildaemon: the implementation details are less than pretty 04:55:16 evildaemon: Go has managed to provide OOP expressivity without classes, and I think that's cool. 04:55:23 adu: do you think you'll be able to make a properly tail-recursive scheme on Go? 04:55:48 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 04:56:02 also, Go has builtin call/ec (or so I've been told, basically exit continuations, but not full continuations, and they're implemented by a scheduler after every return) 04:56:20 i'm looking at http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/opengl what does F64VECTOR means? 04:56:32 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #scheme 04:56:44 bfgun: that's a uniform vector containing 64-bit floats. 04:57:06 where is it specified? 04:57:15 (uniform vector means that the elements can only be of a given type, whereas normal vectors can contain arbitrary elements) 04:57:24 mark_weaver: that's what I've been trying to determine, so far, I've been able to write a C hack to dump the raw bytes of the stack, but it might take awhile before I can actually figure out if I can do that without CPS (of course I could use CPS, but that would be too easy ;) 04:57:28 is that just #(... .. .. .. ) ? 04:57:57 call/cc is a bitch to implement 04:58:15 bfgun: not quite. first of all, '#(...) is a normal vector _literal_, which means that the elements are not evaluated. 04:58:35 scheme@(guile-user)> #f64(0 1 2 3) 04:58:38 $2 = #f64(0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0) 04:58:40 :-D 04:58:42 'f64vector' is analogous to 'vector' or 'list', where the operands _are_ evaluated. 04:58:42 But that's not Chicken. 04:58:57 i've started using for some other unrelated project a library which provides this kind of vectors 04:59:02 one sec 04:59:03 for example, '#(a b c) will return a vector of three symbols. 04:59:56 whereas (vector a b c) will evaluate 'a', 'b', and 'c', i.e. lookup the values of those variables. 05:00:02 mark_weaver: Oh, did you see, in R7RS Ballot 5, it was decided that a bare vector will be evaluated as if it were quoted. 05:00:11 #f32... 05:00:17 'f64vector' is like 'vector', but creates a uniform vector. 05:00:21 maybe i can use #f64 05:00:33 (define t1 '#f32(1 1)) 05:00:33 (define t2 '#f32(2 3)) 05:00:49 this library might even become useful after all 05:00:53 yeah, that looks right, though I don't know chicken. 05:00:54 anyways, there are two things that are really easy to do in Go, make a handler that responds to a panic() i.e. throw/raise, ahd make a handler that responds to a datum over a channel (which provides for one-use continuations that don't return to the right place) 05:00:58 (but ih ave to change all calls to f64... 05:01:12 cky: yes, I saw that. 05:01:37 I would have voted 'no', but it's probably not a big deal either way. 05:02:42 so I'm considering calling these call/ec and call/ch respectively, because they're both useful in different ways 05:03:17 bfgun: the docs for those uniform vectors aka homogeneous vectors are here: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-4/srfi-4.html 05:03:42 thanks, i was looking for them :) 05:04:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.106] has joined #scheme 05:04:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.106] has quit [Changing host] 05:04:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 05:04:26 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:05:31 how can i do massive s&r in emacs? 05:05:40 (i need to go from f32 to f64 lol) 05:05:59 mark_weaver: anyways, I think I confused TCO and call/cc, but I think what I said still applies, using CPS, you could setup a handler to run after the return that calls the next continuation in the handler, that sounds like TCO to me 05:06:22 adu: if you can't implement full call/cc, that's probably not a huge deal. However, proper tail-recursion is really very fundamental to scheme. without it, you need to completely change the way you write loops. 05:06:58 mark_weaver: agreed, however Go doesn't have stack overflows 05:07:21 adu: it dynamically resizes the stack? 05:07:30 mark_weaver: no, it segments the stack 05:07:46 the stack is basically a linked list 05:08:00 it's not linear like it is in C 05:09:09 that's why there's so much going on after "return" because it has to check if the stack is too big, so it an free it, and run any handlers... 05:09:38 perfect, the computational geometry library worked with f64 in a single sweep :) 05:10:08 adu: that's cool, but even so, that's not good enough. you must be able to, for example, implement a state machine by tail calling between different procedures (each of which represents a state), and this state machine should be able to run indefinitely without allocating increasing amounts of memory. 05:10:30 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #scheme 05:10:54 bfgun: excellent! 05:11:09 i'm glad i wrote this unit tests :p 05:11:58 adu: having said this, there are some successful implementations that call themselves "scheme" that don't do this in the general case, but only in specific cases, for example when a function tail-calls itself recursively. 05:12:32 it means you can't implement things like state machines nicely, but at least you can do simple loops in the usual scheme way. 05:13:26 adu: still, that's very cool that 'go' doesn't have stack overflows. I've often wanted that. 05:13:26 well, I'll let you know how it goes 05:14:00 I'm getting really deep into the Go runtime, I feel like I might start accidentally working for Google soon 05:14:07 hehe 05:14:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.242] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:14:38 it is cool 05:14:47 adu: a trampoline is always an option, if all else fails. I think that's what Kawa does if you pass it the relevant option. 05:14:54 but you're right, it's not an excuse against TCO 05:15:51 mark_weaver: what do you mean by trampoline? like while () { next = next() }? 05:15:58 adu: right 05:16:49 that's a great idea, the creator of Go wrote a lexer that way, and so did I, maybe all of my scheme should be like that 05:16:59 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:33 there's an efficiency cost associated with that method, but it's a common way to get around limitations in the implementation language. 05:18:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:19:55 mark_weaver: my problem is that I'm too confident that I can just copy the stack and hack it up a bit 05:20:04 btw, tail-call "optimization" is a somewhat misleading term in the context of scheme, because that term suggests that it's optional. a better way to think about it is that procedure calls in tail position are a GOTO with arguments. 05:20:30 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #scheme 05:20:34 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.138.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:21:29 mark_weaver: you work on guile right? 05:21:39 in scheme, you should be able to write a loop that creates a fresh procedure each iteration and then tail-calls that new procedure, and this should run forever with bounded memory usage. 05:21:43 adu: yes. 05:21:55 mark_weaver: how does guile do call/cc? 05:22:05 adu: it copies the stack. 05:22:18 and uses setjmp/longjmp 05:22:20 ya, that's smart 05:22:21 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:13 ok, here is what I came up with: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/576829/ 05:23:21 there are lots of builtin/hidden functions in go that appear to do that, runtime.getcallerpc and runtime.setcallerpc for example 05:23:21 adu: btw, if you want to implement continuations, I highly recommend implementing _delimited_ continuations, aka _partial_ continuations, aka _composable_ continuations, which are strictly more powerful than full continuations. 05:23:28 It does not resolve a symbol to it's vale in an argument 05:23:36 but I don't get how to do that 05:23:37 mark_weaver: like chicken? 05:24:13 in fact, it's reasonably likely that full continuations will become deprecated entirely, since they have not proven to be a well-conceived abstraction, whereas composable continuations are widely thought to be superior. 05:24:28 adu: what like chicken? 05:24:32 cool, I'll look into it 05:24:53 I was refering to chickens continuation API 05:25:26 adu: I'm not familiar with chicken, besides the fact that it uses the cheney-on-the-MTA implementation technique, which is very cool. 05:25:41 wha? 05:25:52 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:25:58 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:26:39 adu: chicken compiles to C code where none of the functions ever return. they just keep calling each other recursively until the stack fills up, and then it runs a garbage collection to copy live data from the stack into the heap. 05:26:53 basically, the stack is the youngest generation of a generational gc. 05:27:05 what is cheney-on-the-MTA? 05:27:15 (after gc is does a longjmp back to the toplevel and continues) 05:27:32 adu: cheney-on-the-MTA is the name of this technique that I just described. 05:27:45 hmm 05:27:47 huh. What does the '|' character mean in scheme? 05:28:01 adu: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 05:28:16 arameus: in standard scheme, it is reserved for future use. 05:28:23 so it's like a dynamic stack without the segment checking 05:28:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:28:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:28:34 well, one big segment 05:28:50 arameus: some schemes use it to quote symbols with arbitrary characters in their names, such as spaces, etc. 05:29:25 arameus: it could be part of a comment, identifier or R6RS number 05:30:10 arameus: as an identifier it could be either an escape sequence or a valid identifier (in scsh) 05:30:37 dang, that is somewhat frustrating. In Racket, ($ ls | grep string) says read: unbalanced `|' 05:30:41 so I have to use \| 05:31:06 arameus: suggestion: use '!' as an alias for pipe. 05:31:12 arameus: racket treats | as an escape pair |foo bar| is the same as foo&x20;bar 05:32:27 ! already has meaning in bash though. Plus my macro doesn't resolve symbols 05:32:31 it treats them as literal strings 05:32:44 mark_weaver: composable continuations sound like monoids 05:33:05 or monads even 05:33:17 is there some way to make a macro work like C's macros, so I can just translate all |'s in my code to \| ? 05:33:33 arameus: Write a custom reader. 05:33:34 arameus: right, but you could arrange to convert '!' to '|' in your macro, if you want. 05:34:03 adu: not really 05:35:04 Mark: True, but that looks silly. Plus ! already means something in bash 05:35:35 adu: they are like full continuations, except that whereas a full continuation never returns, a composable continuation returns when it reaches the prompt. 05:36:25 arameus: well, like cky said, you could write a custom reader. it can't be done at the macro level, because the problem is in the reader, which happens before macro expansion. 05:37:07 that sounds like overkill. Alright, I think I will just type \| and live with it 05:39:21 -!- hba [~hba@187.136.122.15] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:39:36 adu: note that there are slightly different variants of composable continuations, depending on where implied prompts are added. the most general variant corresponds to 'prompt' and 'abort' as implemented in Guile 2. 05:40:06 which corresponds to Felliesen's '-F-' operator if I recall correctly. 05:40:15 hmm 05:40:34 the other variants can be implemented in terms of that one. 05:41:35 adu: the other way to think about it is that 'prompt' is like launching a new unix process, and then 'abort' dumps core of that unix process in such a way that you could restart it again later, as many times as you like. 05:41:57 so prompt/reset and control/shift? 05:42:44 adu: the details of the terminology used in the literature is not fresh in my mind, so I'm using the names used in Guile. 05:43:31 but shift/reset is _not_ the most general type, though it is popular and convenient for many purposes. In Guile, shift/reset is easily and simply implemented in terms of prompt/abort. 05:44:15 ok 05:44:36 adu: wingo is the best person to ask about this. he implemented composable continuations in Guile 2. 05:47:07 does wingo come here? 05:47:44 mark_weaver: oh, I started implementing ports :) 05:49:22 https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/andrew-working/port.go 05:51:32 adu: yes, he is often here, but at the moment he is on vacation travelling. 05:54:58 Alas, he is not visiting the Triangle this time. :-P 05:55:13 Last time we met up, he had to leave early and I didn't get to show him my car plate. Next time! 05:55:37 adu: cool! 05:55:42 mark_weaver: https://plus.google.com/104178729694994695707/posts/CyTykQYC8v2 :-) (not sure if you've seen it before) 05:56:17 cky: that's awesome! :) 05:56:29 :-) 05:56:42 mark_weaver: thanks :) 05:56:42 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-203-88.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 05:57:13 cky: when I lived in california long ago, my girlfriend had the "DEV NULL" license plate, but I'd rather have yours :) 06:00:56 Oh, very nice. :-) 06:04:22 time for me to sleep. good night all! 06:04:28 night 06:04:36 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:07:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:08:05 how do i import a .scm file? 06:11:46 -!- bfgun is now known as bfig 06:16:48 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:17:34 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:23:25 is there a way to tell if a value is defined or not? 06:32:07 try value (lambda () (display "not defined")) arameus ? 06:33:21 bfig: What do you mean? 06:33:25 I dont understand 06:33:51 (try value (...)) 06:33:54 as in try-catch block? 06:34:04 ahhh, yes I suppose that would work 06:35:27 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:04 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:36:32 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 06:36:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has joined #scheme 06:36:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 06:48:20 -!- arameus [~maxwell@cpe-184-153-14-33.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:50:48 has anyone here ever implemented a scheme on 16 bit machines? how do i best do runtime typing there? taking 2 bits from 16, leaving 14 seems a bit .. much 06:56:01 rurufufuss [~rurufufus@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 06:56:04 -!- stevenfx [~steven@196-215-114-160.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:56:57 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:58:07 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:25 greetings, when embedding scheme (say, to c++), is there a standard library of sorts that should be deployed along? 07:02:19 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:03:29 ecraven, you'd probably want to use just the one low bit for a fixnum tag to not have issues with addressability? 07:05:02 some heap space could probably be saved by having type-specific regions, where eg type of p is at p&(~1023) 07:23:20 kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 07:25:56 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:29:41 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 07:31:07 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b659.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:31:16 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77b045.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 07:32:32 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:43:38 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:45:33 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 07:54:11 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:54:28 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:54:28 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:54:28 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 07:55:34 rudybot: later tell arameus http://tmp.barzilay.org/x 07:55:34 eli: try value (lambda () (display "not defined")) arameus ? 07:56:13 gabot: slap rudybot four times, once on each side. 07:56:14 *gabot* slaps rudybot four times once on each side 08:02:03 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 08:02:03 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:03:40 keenbug [~daniel@p4FE3920E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:05:17 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 08:05:18 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:19:34 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:52 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 08:21:38 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-27-220.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:27:26 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #scheme 08:32:21 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:45 fschwidom [~fschwidom@46.115.2.53] has joined #scheme 08:49:48 forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f7728bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 08:51:35 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:29 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:58:51 gnomon: twittering-mode? Thanks for the tip. 08:59:17 Have you tried ublog, twitel, TwIt? 09:13:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:14:31 a friend, bfig, in response to people wanting to remove call/cc from scheme: "having call/cc is like having a two foot dick. why would you want to chop it off?" 09:14:52 *_* 09:24:31 I don't understand that. Is that an argument in favor or against? Is it supposed to be funny? 09:26:07 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: I'm finished!] 09:28:53 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-210-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 09:29:13 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:54 gffa [~unknown@524895DD.cm-4-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 09:33:07 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-193-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:33:42 -!- gffa [~unknown@524895DD.cm-4-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 09:33:42 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 09:37:38 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:40 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #scheme 09:38:48 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:17 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #scheme 09:58:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:59:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-130.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:59:31 Quadrescence: That analogy is tough; almost aporiatic: you can't copulate with 24-inches; but you can gaze at it, I suppose. 09:59:36 masm [~masm@bl18-56-152.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:59:52 That's a pretty cynical statement about call/cc. 10:00:08 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-130.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:00:14 Or not. 10:02:17 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:21 klutometis, who said you can't copulate with 24 inches 10:05:31 it just might not all fit!! 10:10:47 -!- rly [~rly@unaffiliated/rly] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:22 lucasaiu [~lucasaiu@176.31.156.98] has joined #scheme 10:17:54 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 12.0/20120328051619]] 10:23:27 Quadrescence: Heh; someone did an AMA on Reddit recently about macro-schlong: functionally speaking, it's not terribly distinct from castration; apparently. 10:30:40 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 10:31:04 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:31:35 -!- lucasaiu [~lucasaiu@176.31.156.98] has left #scheme 10:45:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:26 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:02:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has joined #scheme 11:02:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.12.24] has quit [Changing host] 11:02:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 11:14:46 jwd [~jwd@cable-118-42.sssnet.com] has joined #scheme 11:15:07 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:58 choas [~lars@p4FDC584B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:16:03 -!- attila_lendvai 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-!- xwl [~user@123.108.223.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:35 xwl [~user@123.108.223.115] has joined #scheme 13:37:37 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:39:28 tupi [~david@189.67.14.167] has joined #scheme 13:45:57 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 13:46:52 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 13:51:15 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:51:57 Quadrescence: re dick, good one. 13:52:04 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:52:23 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 13:52:31 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:56:56 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 13:58:13 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:23 aramaeus: when you return, i'll explain 14:03:51 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:04:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:16 Quadrescence: call/cc can go hang, provided it gets replaced with delimited continuations :) 14:04:42 all continuations are delimited continuations :) 14:05:35 okay then, movable-prompt delimited continuations 14:06:25 of course, first there needs to be a death match between all the different variants; winner takes all. 14:06:55 I vote for delimited continuations 14:07:05 yes, but which ones!! 14:07:35 *ijp* counts the exports for racket/control 14:08:25 24, less than I thought 14:09:23 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #scheme 14:10:23 ijp: But but but...then I'd have to get a new car plate! https://plus.google.com/104178729694994695707/posts/CyTykQYC8v2 14:10:32 cky: lol 14:11:54 very nice! 14:12:02 cky: no, just tell everyone it stands for call-with-composable-continuation 14:12:12 maybe you can replace it with one that says "NERD" :P 14:14:26 well if you're going to have a nerd plate, it better be this one 14:14:32 that most 'nerds' wouldn't recognise :D 14:15:01 *qu1j0t3* wonders if we need a word for lisp nerd. Parenthete? klutometis? 14:15:12 I vote for the latter. 14:15:16 LOL!!!!!! 14:15:54 adu: :-P 14:16:12 cky: or you could claim to be an ML programmer 14:16:26 :-O 14:17:44 sml/nj ? 14:17:53 hm that would be a nice plate too 14:18:10 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 14:18:53 djcb` [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 14:20:23 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:20:40 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:09 cky: definitely a cool plate 14:23:32 but I would have tried for >>= 14:23:57 adu: You can only do that if you were a Haskell programmer, which I'm not (yet). 14:24:47 I've written 3 packages of hackage 14:24:51 s/of/on/ 14:25:15 :-) 14:25:40 which, of course, pales in comparison to dons (I think he's written around 700 libraries) 14:27:18 ijp: note that most of those exports are simple macros over the fundamental bits 14:28:26 tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:16 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:50:29 estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:53:19 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 14:56:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.242] has joined #scheme 14:57:54 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #scheme 15:00:09 samth: yes, I know. But people can argue over names for weeks :) 15:00:27 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:04:31 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:02 es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:17 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 15:10:55 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:21 lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-106-130.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:11:49 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 15:12:24 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-106-130.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:10 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:18:12 -!- es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:24 ijp: all i'm saying is that the important thing is to have the basic pieces 15:33:07 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44:36 jao [~user@188.pool85-58-135.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 15:44:51 -!- jao [~user@188.pool85-58-135.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Changing host] 15:44:51 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 15:45:53 cky: http://yfrog.com/h78m9fsj 15:49:40 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:16 adu: Very nice. 15:53:29 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #scheme 15:53:29 I don't know who that is 15:55:35 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 15:55:51 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:59:39 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:03 jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-14-211-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:01:04 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-210-155.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:07 -!- choas [~lars@p4FDC584B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:01 Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 16:11:50 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:15:11 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #scheme 16:15:44 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 16:17:06 hoi 16:23:48 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@176.14.94.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:22 hey 16:24:23 dzhus [~sphinx@176.14.94.92] has joined #scheme 16:25:04 hey ho hey 16:25:48 wingo [~wingo@adsl-69-230-65-55.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 16:26:00 jcowan: how goes the draft? 16:26:29 I'll be working on it over the next few weeks to incorporate the ballot decisions. 16:26:46 perhaps knock off some of the backlog of purely editorial changes as well 16:26:52 Then there will be a 7th draft. 16:27:11 I expect that Formal Comments will be accepted on either draft. 16:28:20 I'll make sure to take a look whenever it's released 16:29:37 And of course informal feedback on scheme-reports@ or elsewhere is always good. 16:30:08 I hope I don't find another typo ;) 16:30:37 djcb`` [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 16:32:08 -!- djcb` [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:32 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:37:32 mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:42:07 jcowan: oh, I implemented (make-parameter) yesterday 16:42:24 Great. 16:51:06 -!- rurufufuss [~rurufufus@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:15 antithesis [~antithesi@81.71.110.7] has joined #scheme 16:54:14 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:55:27 jhemann_ [Jason@156-56-193-132.ssl-vpn.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 16:58:47 -!- wingo [~wingo@adsl-69-230-65-55.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:48 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:17 -!- jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-14-211-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:59:49 -!- jhemann_ [Jason@156-56-193-132.ssl-vpn.indiana.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:50 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:11 -!- mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:33 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:39 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:06:38 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:45 mmc [~michal@sams-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 17:11:50 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:31 -!- Skola [~Skola@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:31:08 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:23 wingo [~wingo@204.154.109.20] has joined #scheme 17:46:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.242] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:48:08 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:24 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:59:09 adu: wingo is here now, though I don't know if he has time now to chat with you about composable continuations. 18:00:00 mark_weaver: so he is perhaps I'll ask 18:00:38 He's accessible. But of course he may not actually be here, just because he's "here". 18:00:45 *jcowan* is actually here when he is here. 18:00:46 lcc [d0362ca5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.44.165] has joined #scheme 18:00:58 wingo: what's the difference between composable continuations and functions? 18:01:26 i am here, sorta! 18:01:28 hello! 18:01:43 adu: the difference is in how they are created 18:01:47 to a user they are the same 18:02:01 you can pass a composable continuation to "map" for example 18:02:03 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 18:02:23 something you can't do with continuations in the call/cc style 18:02:45 Well, you can, it's just that you never find your way back to Kansas after that. 18:03:16 So the map never terminates. 18:03:25 indeed 18:03:34 wingo: adu is implementing a scheme on top of Go, and I wanted to make sure he thought about how to implement composable continuations sooner rather than later. I recommended that he implement Felleisen's '-F-' operator, but I wasn't sure what papers to recommend off hand. 18:03:55 wingo: https://github.com/andydude/droscheme 18:04:48 the ones i liked, i linked to from http://wingolog.org/archives/2010/02/14/sidelong-glimpses 18:05:02 I've already implemented composable continuations and escape continuations (not yet in github), and I was wondering if it was worthwhile doing full continuations 18:05:25 "Undelimited". 18:05:32 jcowan: right 18:05:35 jcowan: they can be undelimited yet composable 18:05:39 adu: you can implement full continuations by doing a prompt at startup of the scheme implementation. 18:05:45 By escape, do you mean one-shot, or upward-only 18:05:53 delimited and composable are separate axes of control 18:05:55 Or indeed at the REPL 18:06:04 jcowan: right, maybe that's better :) 18:06:08 -!- twem2_ [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:07:01 adu: you've _already_ implemented composable continuations? are you sure? based on our conversation last night, it didn't seem that you knew enough about them to have implemented them already. 18:07:22 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:48 ok maybe not 18:08:19 I haven't gotten any of my stack hacks to work 18:09:02 adu: definitely check out andy's blog entry that he just referenced. 18:09:25 I usually end up with an infinite loop that does nothing, or get a Go-specific error: no threads are running 18:11:45 but I can wrap a procedure up and use it like a continuation 18:11:55 which leads me to my first question above 18:12:09 whitequark [~whitequar@2a00:ab00:1::4464:5550] has joined #scheme 18:12:20 could anyone recommend a paper on control flow analysis? 18:12:34 whitequark: what do you want to know about it? 18:12:37 namely, I have a CFG, and I need to extract high-level structures like loops and conditionals 18:13:04 i'm confused -- a cfg has that information 18:13:44 it might be a CFG for COBOL 18:14:44 well, I probably don't understand something very basic, but I don't quite get it 18:14:46 G = grammar, or g = graph? 18:15:03 graph 18:16:12 whitequark: Check out Olin Shivers' thesis "Control-Flow Analysis of Higher-Order Languages" 18:17:07 whitequark: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/shivers-diss.ps.gz 18:17:47 arcfide [~arcfide@2001:18e8:2:10f4:c8b7:8a6:acdb:97ff] has joined #scheme 18:18:24 mark_weaver: thanks 18:21:48 whitequark: there are also some more recent papers referenced here: http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html 18:22:12 through the Olin Shivers' one is probably way more complex than I need 18:23:59 whitequark: if you want a simple explanation of a decent algorithm, check out http://matt.might.net/articles/implementation-of-kcfa-and-0cfa/ 18:25:20 wow 18:25:39 control flow graphs are propagator networks 18:25:54 oh, I remember Matt Might's articles 18:26:23 whitequark: oh, I was talking about: http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/ 18:26:37 I've been reading his paper about propagator networks 18:27:12 hm, I'll look into it 18:27:18 jhemann [Jason@140-182-144-38.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 18:27:40 anyways there might be some difference between the two that I can't think of right now, but they sound similar 18:28:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:26 adu: thanks for the link, sounds interesting! 18:28:36 turbofail [~user@99-121-57-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:11 mark_weaver: it is, and he makes a good argument for basically replacing lambda calculus with propagators 18:29:12 It would be interesting to hack gdb to make it able to continue executing a core dump. 18:29:24 jcowan: heh 18:30:49 mark_weaver: after reading his paper, I started seeing propagators everywhere, OpenLaszlo, GUIs, spreadsheets, web browsers, SMT-LIB 18:33:17 I think TRT would be to create a copy of the executable with a patched crt0 routine that restores the bss/stack/heap from the core file. 18:33:45 estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:34:00 Token Rotation Timer? 18:34:04 -!- jhemann [Jason@140-182-144-38.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:34:08 The Right Thing 18:34:13 ooh 18:34:16 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:34:26 *jcowan* never thought about % ('prompt') being the csh prompt. 18:36:20 R7RS-large is going to have a delimited-continuations library, though Ghu knows at this stage what it will look like. 18:37:46 jcowan: makes sense to me, this classic: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128811 doesn't work in most repls I've tried 18:38:47 and if you remove the begin, it doesn't seem to work in some compilers even 18:41:20 jcowan: will it have R6RS style fixnums and flonums? 18:42:23 Yes, though perhaps not quite the same. 18:43:08 maybe fxshl instead of fxarithmetic-shift-left? 18:43:31 Unlikely. If you want your own names, make your own library importing them and export-renaming them. 18:43:56 Might even use arithmetic-shift-left without a prefix: that's not decided yet. 18:44:05 (which means you typically import with a prefix) 18:44:19 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:44:28 Your "classic" shouldn't work: you are calling an escape procedure with no arguments, so nasal-demon territory. 18:44:29 that would make replacing + * etc. much easier 18:44:41 Yes, which is why I will argue for it. 18:44:45 it works in chibi 18:46:29 It does, which probably means chibi is not checking how many arguments a continuation has. 18:48:20 but begins discard any values not in a tail position, so I was under the impression that you're not supposed to check for a single unique value in that instance 18:48:21 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:42 -!- lcc [d0362ca5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.44.165] has quit [] 18:48:43 No, it's the call to "loop" that's problematic. 18:48:53 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-203-88.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:02 As an escape procedure it should take just one argument, and you are passing zero. 18:49:25 Chicken complains, Gauche and Gambit don't 18:49:32 so (loop 1) would be ok? 18:49:58 -!- whitequark [~whitequar@2a00:ab00:1::4464:5550] has left #scheme 18:50:16 Probably. 18:50:19 *jcowan* tries 18:50:45 Works in Chicken 18:51:02 adu: the scheme standards say that all continuations except for those created by 'call-with-values' take one argument. 18:51:21 ok 18:51:48 R7RS qualifies this by saying that non-final expressions in bodies, where the value is discarded anyway, can return other than one value. 18:51:54 R6RS too. 18:52:01 adu: though I agree that it seems reasonable for the continuations of begin operands (other than the last) to accept any number of arguments. 18:52:19 jcowan: ah, okay, makes sense :) 18:52:29 mmc1 [~michal@178-85-63-71.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 18:54:01 does anyone know if larceny provides unsafe/unchecked vector operations? 18:54:17 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:55:16 So with that change, Racket fails and so does Kawa, but Gauche, MIT, Gambit, Chicken, Bigloo, Scheme48/scsh, Guile, SISC all work. 18:55:41 Rabbit prints "yes" just once, and Kawa complains about reuse of a continuation. 18:55:44 the (loop) -> (loop 1) change? 18:55:48 (it supports one-shots only) 18:55:49 Yes. 18:55:58 And with (define yes "yes") to avoid command-line. 18:56:45 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:57:27 es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:58:22 jcowan: is there a texinfo or html version of draft R7RS anywhere? 18:58:47 No, only LaTeX source and PDF at present. 18:59:53 -!- es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:59:58 es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:59:59 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 19:00:00 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:00:00 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 19:00:42 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 19:01:21 WOrks in Chez, SCM, Ikarus/Vicare, Larceny, Ypsilon, Mosh. 19:02:02 Doesn't work in IronScheme, which is like Kawa. 19:02:53 Where's the PDF? :-) 19:03:09 http://www.scheme-reports.org/ 19:03:24 Thanks 19:03:44 "sixth draft of the R7RS" 19:04:07 jcowan: just noticed a minor issue in draft 6: in the description of call/cc, it says: "Except for continuations created by the call-with-values procedure (including the initialization expressions of let-values and let*-values expressions) [...]". It should probably also mention 'define-values'. 19:04:17 Ta. 19:09:53 Pushed on trunk. 19:10:43 jcowan: also, it should be noted that in the presence of internal 'define-values' and 'define-syntax', it is no longer true that internal definitions can be transformed into an equivalent letrec expression. nowadays, you'd need something more like 'letrec-values+syntaxes' in the general case. 19:11:01 jcowan: or rather, 'letrec*-values+syntaxes' 19:11:03 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:15 Hmm. Where does it say that? 19:11:31 jcowan: The definitions of when and unless both lack a terminating closing paren. 19:11:45 forcer: fixed that already. 19:11:49 Er, the "examples in those sections", not "definitions" 19:11:51 jcowan: Ok :-) 19:11:53 jcowan: in R5RS it's in section 5.2.2 19:12:44 jcowan: same section in R7RS draft 6 (although it says 'letrec*' instead of 'letrec' of course) 19:12:49 -!- ThePawnBreak [Cristi@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:40 -!- tupi [~david@189.67.14.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:19 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:19:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:20:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:59 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 19:27:31 kudkudyak [~user@94.72.149.81] has joined #scheme 19:38:28 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:39:42 -!- ijp [~user@host31-52-22-250.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:29 jhemann [~Jason@adsl-99-14-211-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:40:33 ijp [~user@host86-183-35-191.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:43:59 -!- mark_weaver [~user@209-6-91-212.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:45:37 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:09 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:50:09 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:50:09 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #scheme 20:04:07 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:04:35 -!- es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:04:59 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:21:18 -!- shachaf [shachaf@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:6da8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22:58 shachaf [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 20:25:32 bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:32:07 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:39 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #scheme 20:33:52 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:36:37 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-210-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-88.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:51:23 mark_weaver [~user@TURNTABLE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:54:52 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 20:56:05 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #scheme 21:03:55 bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-50-189-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 21:09:50 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@196-215-106-130.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:56 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-148-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:16:30 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-225-204.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:14 phao [phao@177.115.49.131] has joined #scheme 21:18:21 -!- antithesis [~antithesi@81.71.110.7] has quit [Quit: yes leaving] 21:19:00 -!- mark_weaver [~user@TURNTABLE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:11 mark_weaver [~user@TURNTABLE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:19:33 pothos [~pothos@114-36-228-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:28 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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