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I think Chicken Scheme does. 01:47:43 I have red the SICP textbook there is a small text about Concurrency 01:48:11 it seems that Concurrency isn't about thread right? 01:49:40 if you want to distribute across multicore, it is 01:49:52 though within system threads you might have lighter threads like Erlang does 01:50:35 about-parallel: 'suppose that we have extended Scheme to include a procedure called parallel-execute' 01:50:55 about-parallel: it's a speculative discussion 01:52:27 The Erlang approach seems one step behind it's concept is like OS running multi programs 01:52:30 about-parallel: here are the kind of primitives you would need http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Unit%20srfi-18 01:52:53 about-parallel: there is a great advantage of the erlang approach 01:52:58 about-parallel: well, several. 01:53:17 about-parallel: 1) little or no explicit locking 2) 1000x scalability versus native threads 01:53:32 about-parallel: 3) doesn't care whether local or remote 01:53:39 about-parallel: etc 01:54:31 point 2) is possible because the vm threads are much lighter in every respect than posix threads 01:58:08 Is it possible to send instruction directly to a core instead of using OS Thread? 01:58:17 instructions* 01:58:43 what is your objective? 01:59:02 os threads are a way of utilising the resource. bypassing them doesn't achieve anything. 01:59:08 they just give you access 01:59:20 once your thread is running, you are 'send instruction directly to a core' (in user mode) 02:00:20 everything else is up to you. 02:00:46 treating posix threads as the unit of concurrency just has heavy limitations... just like treaing a unix process as the unit has limitations. 02:01:08 if you need to lift those limitations then you can design a sub-scheduler to your own requirements. 02:01:14 (as the erlang vm does) 02:01:27 -!- Aune [~Arne@h-152-28.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 02:01:41 wait 02:01:45 for many applications threads work fine. if you need 1,000,000 communicating processes on one node: then not so much 02:02:16 work fine modulo pain of explicit synchronisation) 02:02:19 I am thinking in procedure level parallel 02:02:37 it still has to be organised somehow, as an abstraction. 02:02:53 the thread model gives you tools to run a bunch of procedures in parallel. 02:03:19 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:25 You're talking of threads as a specific implementation. But the same API can be implemented in different ways. Eg. green threads don't have the same problems as pthreads. 02:03:41 green threads would be the alternative yes. 02:03:45 Now, you can also argue that the thread API is bogus. 02:03:58 well yes, that's dispensable too... 02:04:31 pjb: yeah i'm talking about pthreads 02:05:03 I know Erlang is parallel but it is in the thread lvl 02:05:33 about-parallel: if your objective is to 'run some procedures in parallel' like SICP's suggested parallel-execute primitive, then threads let you do that. 02:06:30 I want to write a messaging system with parallel-execute is it the right implemention? 02:06:42 Well, I'd say pthread solve a specific problem: that of having parallel threads running in system code. Green threads need to serialize syscalls. 02:07:30 But otherwise, yes, pthreads are almost as costly as processes. 02:14:43 qu1j0t3 is there any doc explaining how the VM of Erlang works? 02:15:41 most likely, but i don't have a link handy 02:17:09 Suppose I have parallel-execute I don't see why I still need a VM 02:17:16 the 'erlang processes' communicate by message passing, so it may be relevant to you 02:17:19 about-parallel: you don't need a vm 02:17:35 about-parallel: but you do need a way to get your stuff scheduled 02:18:55 about-parallel: and along with that comes a need for some synchronisation primitives. for example, say you 'parallel-execute' N procedures. how do you know when they are all finished? etc. 02:19:30 and how do you gather the results 02:22:11 Wait with this approach will I end up doing things like Erlang? 02:25:47 maybe? 02:25:53 erlang's primitive is message passing 02:26:08 personally i'd let somebody else implement and debug it, then freeload on the results :D 02:26:48 but if you want to DIY, all you should need is Scheme + access to O/S threads 02:30:38 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:33:16 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:40:38 k thx qu1j0t3 time to do some research 02:41:12 about-parallel: yw. hope i helped. sorry i don't have a direct erlang link. 02:44:09 There is no article talking about the VM not even a thesis 02:44:31 about-parallel: some stuff does float by on the mailing list, but i really do think there is info on the web. 02:44:44 -!- bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-105-95.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:45:12 about-parallel: http://www.erlang-factory.com/upload/presentations/247/erlang_vm_1.pdf ? 02:47:44 about-parallel: this is old, but http://yarivsblog.blogspot.ca/2006/06/more-erlang.html 02:48:15 about-parallel: http://www.slideshare.net/profyclub_ru/the-design-and-implementation-of-a-scalable-concurrent-virtual-machine-robert-virding-9518892 02:48:16 http://tinyurl.com/7lj4qhc 02:48:41 about-parallel: (damn, that's in russian...) 02:49:41 about-parallel: same material and video presentation: http://yow.eventer.com/events/1004/talks/1021 02:50:26 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:53:07 thx qu1j0t3 the goal of the talk seems what I am looking for - the Erlang VM 02:53:39 :) 02:55:05 Erlang is so popular today especially when you talk about web developing 02:56:11 it is much much better than the Reactor pattern implements 02:58:04 es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:58:06 -!- es [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:17 estevocastro [~estevocas@cpe-74-72-192-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:02:49 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit 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[~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:53 leppie [~lolcow@196.209.233.106] has joined #scheme 04:16:22 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:22:10 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196.209.233.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:26:47 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-234-156.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 04:27:40 -!- arcfide [~arcfide@c-98-223-204-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:33:23 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:53 -!- forcer [~forcer@hmbg-5f773163.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:47:39 -!- kudkudyak [~user@94.72.135.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:50:32 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #scheme 04:52:32 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:52:32 cky: your sandbox is ready 04:52:33 cky: Done. 04:52:37 rudybot: (require srfi/43) 04:52:37 cky: Done. 04:52:40 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:52:40 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 04:52:48 rudybot: init 04:52:49 cky: your sandbox is ready 04:52:55 rudybot: (require srfi/43) 04:52:55 cky: Done. 04:52:59 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:53:00 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 04:53:24 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst n) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:53:25 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 04:53:55 rudybot: (define (my-shuffle lst n) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:53:55 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 04:54:02 rudybot: version 04:54:02 cky: 79212f5 04:54:14 rudybot: (version) 04:54:15 cky: ; Value: "5.2.900.1" 04:54:27 rudybot: init racket 04:54:27 cky: your sandbox is ready 04:54:31 (require srfi/43) 04:54:35 rudybot: (require srfi/43) 04:54:36 cky: Done. 04:54:42 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:54:42 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 04:55:03 rudybot: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) lst) 04:55:04 cky: Done. 04:55:36 rudybot: '(define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:55:36 cky: ; Value: (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:57:37 rudybot: init racket 04:57:38 cky: your sandbox is ready 04:57:39 rudybot: version 04:57:40 cky: 79212f5 04:57:50 rudybot: (procedure? version) 04:57:50 cky: ; Value: #t 04:57:56 rudybot: eval version 04:57:56 cky: ; Value: # 04:58:05 rudybot: (require srfi/43) 04:58:05 cky: Done. 04:58:13 rudybot: eval (define (shuffle lst (n #f)) (define vec (list->vector lst)) (define size (vector-length vec)) (define len (min size (or n size))) (do ((i 0 (add1 i))) ((>= i len) (vector->list vec 0 len)) (vector-swap! vec i (+ i (random (- size i)))))) 04:58:13 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 05:02:27 ttys0001` [~user@2001:19f8:20:1:ca2a:14ff:fe0f:b01b] has joined #scheme 05:03:24 -!- ttys0001 [~user@2001:19f8:20:2:e2f8:47ff:fe09:6a9a] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:04:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-229-190.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:47 Wow, that's busted. 05:09:00 Apparently on the version of Racket rudybot's in, vector->list doesn't work when srfi/43 is loaded. 05:09:08 (It works correctly on Racket 5.2.1.) 05:13:52 rudybot: init 05:13:53 cky: your sandbox is ready 05:13:56 rudybot: require srfi/43 05:13:57 cky: So srfi-4 should provide surf-for to. 05:14:04 rudybot: (require srfi/43) 05:14:04 cky: Done. 05:14:12 rudybot: eval vector->list 05:14:12 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 05:14:28 rudybot: eval (vector->list '#(1 2 3 4 5)) 05:14:29 cky: error: car: expects argument of type ; given: #f 05:14:56 Actually, I'll post all this on #racket instead. 05:15:16 -!- ssbr__ [~ssbr@python/site-packages/ssbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:20:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.82.225] has joined #scheme 05:20:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.82.225] has quit [Changing host] 05:20:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 05:22:00 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:53:36 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:53:49 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 06:01:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 06:11:33 -!- copumpkin 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seconds] 09:14:25 -!- futilius [~futilius_@user-0c9h82b.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:22:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:22:46 BW^- [~Miranda@86.127.164.72] has joined #scheme 09:24:10 when you refer to an identifier in a syntax-rules macro, then the version of that identifier, which was the one that was declared the most recently updwards in the lexical scope from the point where the macro is defined, is the one used right? 09:24:41 i.e. (the syntax rules macro ABC that uses cons) (define cons sth-else) (ABC) - ABC will use the original cons and not the overlapped one 09:24:54 what's this mechanism called? (i know the general word is hygiene, but more specifically?) 09:30:49 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 09:50:46 masm [~masm@bl18-36-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:06:49 So here: 10:06:49 (define-syntax cons** (syntax-rules () ((cons** a b) (cons a b)) ((cons** a c ...) (cons** a (cons** c ...))))) 10:06:50 (define cons error) 10:06:50 (cons** 1 2) 10:07:12 what's the mechanism that makes this (cons** 1 2) use the previously defined cons rather than error, called? 10:07:26 *..rather than error to be called, called? 10:23:45 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-11-21.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 10:27:42 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.110.214] has joined #scheme 10:55:12 Whitesquall [~notwhites@31.172.196.244] has joined #scheme 11:04:41 bitonic [~Francesco@93-40-82-201.ip37.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 11:05:42 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-143-55.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:32 ASau [~user@95-27-143-55.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:16:55 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 11:26:00 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@86.127.164.72] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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[Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:47 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #scheme 23:05:29 -!- estevocastro [estevocast@nat/hackerschool.com/x-bosxobpzluxumngd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:32 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:15:02 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 23:18:59 maahes [~maahes@cpe-98-148-196-131.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:19:29 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:40 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-55-233.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 23:22:33 how do I do a simple assignment to a constant? I.e. somevar = 1.5 in scheme? I'm doing htdp, but trying something like (define (= somevar 1.50)) doesn't work obviously. 23:24:10 how do i pick a random element of a list efficiently? 23:24:48 "efficiently"? 23:25:18 nevermind, it was really a dumb question 23:25:40 maahes, (define somevar x) 23:25:47 maahes, (define somevar 1.5) 23:26:04 use set! 23:26:38 maahes: if your htdp student language doesn't have assigment, you probably shouldn't be using it 23:26:58 if it does, I expect it would have covered it beforehand 23:27:34 maahes : or just `(define somevar 1.50)', if `somevar' hasn't been introduced before 23:29:00 oh one of the exercises says "replace all these hard coded variables with constants)" only I had evidently missed simple assigmentment, I had tried (define (somevar 1.5-)) which was obviously also wrong 23:29:09 maahes: you should try and avoid mutating variables 23:29:42 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 23:30:06 maahes: remember (define (x y) will be a procedure 23:31:01 rudybot: eval (define somevar 1.50) 23:31:02 ski: your scheme sandbox is ready 23:31:02 ski: Done. 23:31:12 rudybot: eval (+ somevar somevar) 23:31:13 ski: ; Value: 3.0 23:31:21 rudybot: eval `(somevar is ,somevar) 23:31:21 ski: ; Value: (somevar is 1.5) 23:35:02 maahes: HtDP distinguishes between definition and assignment. Languages like C mix them up but Scheme does not. 23:35:41 is anyone here interested in doing some basic scheme work for pay? 23:36:24 if it's really easy and pays a lot, sure 23:36:32 something tells me at least one of those two won't be true 23:36:42 and I don't take bitcoins either 23:36:47 depends on your definition of a lot 23:36:54 i'm sure it'd be cake for anyone skilled though 23:38:03 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:41 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:51:44 So it's a school assignment. You're basically asking us to do it for you so that you get a degree, so that you can be hired to do our jobs cheaper, so that we may be fired, and since you won't have learned anything you'll make crap if you can make anything at all, so we'd only be able to buy crap product if we had any money left? 23:51:45 No thanks. 23:52:26 Or, rather, the price for that would be the amount of money I wouldn't earn for the rest of my life. So my price is USD40,000,000. 23:52:38 -!- bipt [~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:01 bleh123: my advice: go sell fries on the beach, you don't need a degree and to return assignments for that job. 23:53:12 (and you can still make a good living or even a fortune in it). 23:53:21 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-79-176.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:50 And yes, it would take five minute for us to do it. But killing ourselves would also be quick. 23:55:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:45 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-179-88.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme